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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Would it be valid to list such games if no one played the games because the counters made Mages simply not be played?
Would it also be valid to list games where players stopped considering them 'Mages' because their AoE was ineffective even when there was only one Mage?
My examples take a while to explain and 'defend', so I'm asking for the sake of both our time.
I'm ok with my tank dying for their mage xD
anyways, it depends how much damage will be reflected. if you reflect 100%, you would take 0 damage and kill the mage instead. and even if it wasn't 100%, consider that tanks might have higher hp than a mage. you don't have to take all your mdef gear off, just gotta find the sweet spot
if its something like reflect 10% and take 90%, probs not worth it, unless they do 1million damage to you and still die from reflecting 100k back
Being unable to deal damage or cast offensive spells in 2ish seconds =\= useless. Use the time to reposition, cast defensive spells or prepare devastating combos once the field is gone.
Imo, ability counters with moderate to long CDs is a must-have in a game that want somewhat interesting large scale PvP. You want to encourage players to bring in multiple archetypes instead of just doing a mage blob, tank blob, cleric blob or w/e.
Also, having one defensive CD that counters magical damage does not make a class a natural counter to mages - it just gives mages something to play around.
Mages do not need a full physical damage immunity if we go on with this thought experiment. A mage would be default have the highest damage in the game - especially in AoE terms. Though I would definitely imagine them having stuff like "mage armor" (the absorb shield we saw) and perhaps even mirror image that act as projectile denial (ranger arrows, tank "hook" etc). And I'd give them more control abilities to assist them in keeping their distance, both in small and bigger scale PvP.
A Tank or cleric could get a stationary anti-magic bubble because they lack the damage and the mobility to catch up to the mage and kill him in the way a Rogue or fighter can, but they can attempt to assist their grouped Rogue/fighter in catching up to enemy mages. The enemy mages would then require a frontline of their own, whose purpose would be to either "peel" away the attackers or charge the other group in a similar fashion .
A Rogue could have a short magical CC status immunity because otherwise they struggle to ever catch the mage - in both large and small scale PvP.
And obviously subclasses could come into play here. A mage/tank could perhaps turn themselves into stone in a short duration, and become immune to physical damage at the cost of mobility, but deals less damage than a mage/mage. A mage/Rogue might have more mobility to kite, but much less AoE damage.
As of now across all games I have played through all their test phases.
Nope, still doesn't work, unless the difference between Mage HP and 'nearly everyone else' HP is massive.
I don't expect to see that in Ashes. Anything is possible to balance in design if you focus everything in that design around balancing it, but the bases of Ashes do not currently trend toward being able to solve the 'MageBall' through damage reflection.
Maybe as a FOOS where the Mages in question don't have any coordination, but otherwise, no chance.
Mages would have to have few times more hp than other archetypes if they were purely hitting with aoes against crowds. I'd imagine that 100% reflect would be a bit too op, but why would that kind of reflect not work?
Because that's not the AoE type being used. That's not even the AoE Type that Ashes has presented us with. The timing and coordination required on the side of those doing the 'reflection' is too high for this to be worthwhile.
MageBalls are not about 'everyone just dump AoE blasts on the targets at once', not even close. It's a matter of 'calculating a way to get enough Area Denial DoT combined with your positional AoE attacks'. On the other hand, again, if we're talking about having basically a 'damage reflection stance', then we're back to 'people being able to just hard counter mages without doing much, which DOES work, I guess?
Is this how L2 handles this? You just 'activate damage reflect and then it's the Mage's fault for attacking'?
L2 had a bigger problem of "30sec invulnerability for your whole alliance as long as you didn't hit anyone", which kinda removed any "aoe reflect" interactions. Tanks would still use the reflect in smaller skirmishes and in 1v1s, but huge battles and especially sieges usually revolved around the CD of the alliance invincibility. Only one class had this and guilds would usually have several of them to use it at different times of the siege (quite often with a few alts on standby).
Yeah this is the understanding I had. L2 PvP from my research and your description is very INTENSE but it is not what anyone I know would actually call 'good'.
Happens a lot in my circles. Is the game INTENSE? Very. Is it fun? If you like specific types of skill expression. Is it GOOD? Comparatively to other stuff ... dubious.
Either way I can't say anything because Ashes could easily lean into that type of gameplay if that's what Steven wants to recreate, I'm just speculating based on what I have seen. I always assume 'they will make decisions in the direction of fun+skill' and from their current bases, that limits where they go. But they could make decisions in the direction of 'fun only' or 'skill only' and end up somewhere totally different.
No game has had that bad of a reflect mechanic since L2. At least, not that I have seen.
try RO
ragnarok, forsaken world, and diablo. probs more but I cant remember off the top of my head
1-enemy activates reflect
2- don't attack for a little bit or use any physical skill if you have one through augments.
3- run, kite, blink, etc
in 1v1
reflects don't last forever =x
In my circle of friends, Ragnarok Online is treated as being as much of a joke of a game as Hello Kitty Online.
It's great if you enjoyed it (hey, people enjoyed Hello Kitty), but it was such a grab-bag of poor mechanics that I am not surprised if this was the case.
My understanding of magical reflect in Forsaken World is that the damage of the base ability was split, and then the target and caster each received their portion, each then affected by their own magical defense.
I cant speak to Diablo (not least because you didnt say which diablo), but I would be very surprised if Blizzard put in a mechanic that bad.
Yeah, but this isnt going to do anything to a mageball.
Again, this is my point, in order for that ability to be strong enough to have literally any effect on a mageball, it is overpowered in all other situations against a mage.
if its that strong then stop attacking in 1v1 that's my point T_T
yeh there were some issues in to but if it was fun or not, that's subjective. also there's many versions of the game, so not sure what ur friends saw.
tanks had like 3-4 times the hp of a mage in fw iirc back when I played
lol blizzard xD just look for thorns damage. depending on which game and patch it was kinda op.
i have to check tera, aion, fiesta, granado espada, perfect world, revelations online, bns. i forgot if it existed there.
can any1 who played those games confirm?
Keep in mind, if you are talking about an ability that has a reflect mechanic that is able to deal enough damage to a mageball that is moderately organized, you are talking about 100% magical reflect for at least 30 seconds. Even then, it is doubtful that will actually stop a mageball, just slow it down some.
If it is less than 100% reflect, you are dead before anyone in the mageball. If it is not for 30 seconds, you are not able to deal enough damage to enough mages in that mageball to overcome the two or three AoE healers that are along for the ride (in Archeage, mages spec'd in to healing as well).
A 30 second, 100% magical damage reflect is insanely overpowered. Once again, if this exists, do mages get a 30 second physical damage reflect to balance things out?
Me - if you want to be able to have any impact on a mageball.
In fact, it would probably be longer in Ashes. That is what it would have taken in Archeage, and from what we know, the truth in Ashes will be longer.
Obviously you can have a reflect that wont impact a mageball at all, but that wont impact a mageball at all.
This is why I listed multiple divergent countering mechanism for a mage ball which utilize nearly every other class in some way. The idea is not to have class A completely shut down class B, but rather have every class shutdown a tactic and every class has multiple tactics available too it. Mages should with AoE's shutdown 'blob' tactics of simply throwing a concentrated mass formation at the enemy. This is also what artillery dose on the battlefield btw which is why I make that comparison.
Having reread everything, the basis of this conversation was actually you stating your preference for the 'Artillery Mage' and then discussing how there could be counters to 'Multiple Artillery Mages'.
I am in no way attempting to accuse you of being either biased or disingenuous, moreso the realization that the conversation 'doesn't need to happen'. If Ashes chose to make 'Artillery Mage' style gameplay work, I feel that a discussion with you based on the 'reality in front of us' at that time, how to make it not feel bad on either side, would be useful, but the current situation is a bit more 'you like something and believe the something can be designed in a fun way that can be countered' and a bunch of people (myself included) not believing you.
Doesn't seem at first glance as if it would lead to a discussion that led to any positive sentiment on either side, over time, so I'm retracting my previous 'interest' in talking about it at this time.
or you can have a reflect that isn't 30 seconds and impacts a mageball OwO
what if it lasts 5 seconds but returns 1000% of the damage?
you know, there are different solutions for the same problem.
Somehow this seems to change when you're trying to solve two problems at once, though.
I feel like solving the problem of 'a Mage dying because they already fired off a lightning ball and someone activated a reflect and walked along inside the ball taking damage' is important too.
Then that is still insanely overpowered against a solo mage.
It is literally a one button kill. A mage in non-mageball PvP wouldnt be able to cast an AoE at all in open PvP.
Again, it's easy to come up with solutions that work - its solutions that work that aren't insanely overpowered that are hard to find.
the point I'm trying make is that there isn't one solution for a problem, in response to you saying that the skill MUST be 30 seconds.
we better leave the balancing details to the devs
The problem with reasoning like this is that it doesn't result in anything, (except players blaming devs).
Players go 'this skill would be cool, I hope they add it'.
Devs go 'Hmm this skill can't be balanced in our game, let's not add it'.
Players go 'why didn't the Devs add the skill I like? I'm sure it could have been balanced, there's always a way!'.
They have my sympathies always.