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Pessimistic about the mage

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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    it doesnt have to be 30 seconds...who said that?

    Me - if you want to be able to have any impact on a mageball.

    In fact, it would probably be longer in Ashes. That is what it would have taken in Archeage, and from what we know, the truth in Ashes will be longer.

    Obviously you can have a reflect that wont impact a mageball at all, but that wont impact a mageball at all.

    or you can have a reflect that isn't 30 seconds and impacts a mageball OwO

    what if it lasts 5 seconds but returns 1000% of the damage?

    you know, there are different solutions for the same problem.

    Then that is still insanely overpowered against a solo mage.

    It is literally a one button kill. A mage in non-mageball PvP wouldnt be able to cast an AoE at all in open PvP.

    Again, it's easy to come up with solutions that work - its solutions that work that aren't insanely overpowered that are hard to find.

    the point I'm trying make is that there isn't one solution for a problem, in response to you saying that the skill MUST be 30 seconds.

    we better leave the balancing details to the devs

    I mean, since the point I was making is that you cant addin any skill to counter a mageball in this manner, pointing out the 30 second thing as being technically untrue if we continue to ignore balance is pointless.

    The 30 second duration was based on a 50/50 split of damage. Obviously.

    My point is it cant be balanced. You aren't even attempting to suggest otherwise.
  • edited May 2023
    The "Mageball" strategy wasn't very functional in Lineage 2 due to 2 factors:

    Mages would get hella kited by their greatest counters Archers that out-run and out-range them in open zones

    Mages would get destroyed by Warriors in closed places and at close range as their durability far outclassed that of mages, also Dreadnought's AoEs had powerful stuns that could completely disable clusters of mages even before getting close to them due to their unique medium range AoE Stun.
    (Warrior/Dreadnought balls also weren't a thing other than in closed places where they couldn't be kited).

    So they would usually position themselves a bit spread out at their max range kiting warriors or bursting down archers in places they are unable to be out-range kited.

    Even with all that, mages were still considered the best class in big fights as their DPS was the highest in the game and their adaptability in any scenario, even if not being God Kiters like Archers nor Gods at close combat AoE like Warriors but being quite good in both types of combat.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • KorelaKorela Member
    The "Mageball" strategy wasn't very functional in Lineage 2
    rdki07ulmi85.png
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Korela wrote: »
    rdki07ulmi85.png
    Yes, Flash was quite strong, but it's an aura hit instead of a ranged aoe, so the archers James talked about didn't care about this. And depending on the chronicles, even melee classes could fight against this. And if mages just stood in one place spamming Flash, they themselves would get aoed upon by enemy mages or other classes.
  • KorelaKorela Member
    NiKr wrote: »
    Korela wrote: »
    rdki07ulmi85.png
    Yes, Flash was quite strong, but it's an aura hit instead of a ranged aoe, so the archers James talked about didn't care about this. And depending on the chronicles, even melee classes could fight against this. And if mages just stood in one place spamming Flash, they themselves would get aoed upon by enemy mages or other classes.

    True. I just remember Flash-spam near the castle or fortress objectives. No range for archers to kite and constant target-cancel on melees :'(
  • edited May 2023
    Korela wrote: »
    The "Mageball" strategy wasn't very functional in Lineage 2
    rdki07ulmi85.png

    Aura Flash even tho strong just wasn't enough for the strategy as it is present in other games especially in the early versions that had character collision, it's range limited its functionality mainly to very closed places in very crowded fights, where melee classes already had the advantage.

    For those that don't know this L2 Skill, its a very fast cast, small cooldown, elementless small damage, small AoE that removes targets.

    On Hellbound version it became more effective as there was the possibility to enchant the Aura Flash to Stun amazingly improving its potential, but at that point Mages/archers were already getting obliterated by Kamaels.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • PoV: You and your mage party are about to be turned into carpet by some one-winged bastas pulling up.
    lineage-ii-rpg-fantasy-art-kamael-wallpaper-preview.jpg
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    it doesnt have to be 30 seconds...who said that?

    Me - if you want to be able to have any impact on a mageball.

    In fact, it would probably be longer in Ashes. That is what it would have taken in Archeage, and from what we know, the truth in Ashes will be longer.

    Obviously you can have a reflect that wont impact a mageball at all, but that wont impact a mageball at all.

    or you can have a reflect that isn't 30 seconds and impacts a mageball OwO

    what if it lasts 5 seconds but returns 1000% of the damage?

    you know, there are different solutions for the same problem.

    Then that is still insanely overpowered against a solo mage.

    It is literally a one button kill. A mage in non-mageball PvP wouldnt be able to cast an AoE at all in open PvP.

    Again, it's easy to come up with solutions that work - its solutions that work that aren't insanely overpowered that are hard to find.

    the point I'm trying make is that there isn't one solution for a problem, in response to you saying that the skill MUST be 30 seconds.

    we better leave the balancing details to the devs

    The problem with reasoning like this is that it doesn't result in anything, (except players blaming devs).

    Players go 'this skill would be cool, I hope they add it'.

    Devs go 'Hmm this skill can't be balanced in our game, let's not add it'.

    Players go 'why didn't the Devs add the skill I like? I'm sure it could have been balanced, there's always a way!'.

    They have my sympathies always.

    oh so it would be better if players designed and balanced the game?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    it doesnt have to be 30 seconds...who said that?

    Me - if you want to be able to have any impact on a mageball.

    In fact, it would probably be longer in Ashes. That is what it would have taken in Archeage, and from what we know, the truth in Ashes will be longer.

    Obviously you can have a reflect that wont impact a mageball at all, but that wont impact a mageball at all.

    or you can have a reflect that isn't 30 seconds and impacts a mageball OwO

    what if it lasts 5 seconds but returns 1000% of the damage?

    you know, there are different solutions for the same problem.

    Then that is still insanely overpowered against a solo mage.

    It is literally a one button kill. A mage in non-mageball PvP wouldnt be able to cast an AoE at all in open PvP.

    Again, it's easy to come up with solutions that work - its solutions that work that aren't insanely overpowered that are hard to find.

    the point I'm trying make is that there isn't one solution for a problem, in response to you saying that the skill MUST be 30 seconds.

    we better leave the balancing details to the devs

    I mean, since the point I was making is that you cant addin any skill to counter a mageball in this manner, pointing out the 30 second thing as being technically untrue if we continue to ignore balance is pointless.

    The 30 second duration was based on a 50/50 split of damage. Obviously.

    My point is it cant be balanced. You aren't even attempting to suggest otherwise.

    my point is, there are many solutions to one problem. just because YOU cant find how to balance it, doesn't mean it cant be balanced and that's why I said lets leave it to the devs, you know, the people who learned how to do all those things.

    its like going to the doctor and telling them that you have an illness and cant be cured, when in fact, it can be
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    just because YOU cant find how to balance it, doesn't mean it cant be balanced
    Something I think you may be missing here is that we are not talking about a hypothetical situation that we are trying to hypothetically balance.

    We are talking about a real world situation that actual game developers tried to balance and failed to do so for 18 months. The eventual balance was to lower the AoE effectiveness of the class, which necessitated adding back some single target effectiveness.

    Basically, they tried and failed to have an AoE focused mage, which is what was suggested in this thread.
  • what does that have anything to do with reflect? also back then not all skills were available and not all augments were available, not all the gear was available. those things change how you balance things too. maybe what was bad earlier can be good now after they have a full list of all the abilities of all the characters, augments, etc.

    you are still missing the point. there is more than 1 solution for a problem.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    what does that have anything to do with reflect? also back then not all skills were available and not all augments were available, not all the gear was available.
    Back when?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    what does that have anything to do with reflect? also back then not all skills were available and not all augments were available, not all the gear was available.
    Back when?

    what you mentioned. are you talking about the first iteration of the mage in aoc or a different game?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited May 2023
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    what does that have anything to do with reflect? also back then not all skills were available and not all augments were available, not all the gear was available.
    Back when?

    what you mentioned. are you talking about the first iteration of the mage in aoc or a different game?

    A different game.

    As I said earlier in this thread, this was an issue for 18 months or so in Archeage.

    While it is easy to say "that is a different game, with different mechanics", the point to consider here is that the developers had basically free reign to do whatever they could to deal with the issue, they could make any alterations to any ability of any class, they had the same basic tools that will be available to Intrepid (code), and after a year and a half, their resolution was to tone back the AoE potential of the class.

    This is why I am not talking in hypotheticals at all as you are. I am talking about what has happened in the past, and the only resolution they found to a class that was too heavy in AoE damage.

    In essence, the ONLY difference between Archeage and Ashes in this regard is that Ashes will have player collision, reducing the number of players that is viable to have in a mageball. However, there will still be enough players present to make it a viable strategy if they create a mage class that is AoE focused.

    By far the best way to prevent this being viable in Ashes is to limit the AoE potential of any given class so that any group of 24 of them (the limit I would imagine to be viable in Ashes with collision) is not able to maintain a full perimeter. This amount of AoE potential is not going to be enough to consider the class to be an AoE specialist, and so will still need a good amount of single target damage.

    Do that, and literally all the rest of this discussion is moot
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    If Archeage had a mage ball problem that was solved by reducing the AoE potential of mages dose not tell us that the fixes being proposed here do not work unless Archeage actually TRIED those fixes and features only to find them lacking.

    Simply saying the someone else facing a similar problem to us 'could have' tried the ideas we now have but chose not to doesn't prove anything unless we ascribe infinite foresight to the other party. If the game was already live, I would be very doubtful of any design team doing much other than taking the nerf bat to the problem class as it's too late to design a complex sets of checks and balances by that point. And the fact they released with a lack of balance speaks to these designers having a lack of foresight, not an infinite amount.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Lodrig wrote: »
    If Archeage had a mage ball problem that was solved by reducing the AoE potential of mages dose not tell us that the fixes being proposed here do not work unless Archeage actually TRIED those fixes and features only to find them lacking.
    Which they did.

    A number of the suggestions in this thread made it as far as the test server (Korean test server, to be clear), some of them were discounted before even making it that far, and some of them were never considered (such as an attempt at making a class immune enough to AoE).

    To be fair, it took them a good 6 months before they tried anything, but once they got started, they were putting more effort in to it (at least on test) than any other issue I personally saw in that game.
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    So which ones WERE actually tried?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Lodrig wrote: »
    So which ones WERE actually tried?

    On test, they attempted to give some classes the ability to mitigate magical damage enough to get through the exclusion zone, they attempted to give a class the ability to teleport in close, they attempted to give a class a longer range. The game already had an ability to reflect as much magical damage as the developers considered balanced, so they didn't do that. They also didn't bother making stealth either immune to damage, or not be broken from damage, as that would have caused stealth to be far too powerful.

    They played with the idea of trying to AoE a mageball, but that effectively resulted in the only valid tactic against a mageball being another mageball. They also considered the idea of making mana a limiting factor, but that meant they would need to design all future PvE encounters around this new mana paradigm. The thinking there was that they couldn't just make AoE spells cost more mana in relation to single target spells as this would render the class useless, meaning the only way to make mana the limit here was to limit the ability to regenerate during combat. Even then though, an attempt to get through mageball by trying to run it out of mana would see hundreds of people having to literally throw themselves in to it.

    So, AoE, range, reflect, teleport, mana and stealth were all deemed unacceptable at dealing with a mageball.

    I feel as if they had a few other things they considered but deemed not even worth testing, but in terms of actually testing on the test server, there were just the four or five from memory.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    what does that have anything to do with reflect? also back then not all skills were available and not all augments were available, not all the gear was available.
    Back when?

    what you mentioned. are you talking about the first iteration of the mage in aoc or a different game?

    A different game.

    As I said earlier in this thread, this was an issue for 18 months or so in Archeage.

    While it is easy to say "that is a different game, with different mechanics", the point to consider here is that the developers had basically free reign to do whatever they could to deal with the issue, they could make any alterations to any ability of any class, they had the same basic tools that will be available to Intrepid (code), and after a year and a half, their resolution was to tone back the AoE potential of the class.

    This is why I am not talking in hypotheticals at all as you are. I am talking about what has happened in the past, and the only resolution they found to a class that was too heavy in AoE damage.

    In essence, the ONLY difference between Archeage and Ashes in this regard is that Ashes will have player collision, reducing the number of players that is viable to have in a mageball. However, there will still be enough players present to make it a viable strategy if they create a mage class that is AoE focused.

    By far the best way to prevent this being viable in Ashes is to limit the AoE potential of any given class so that any group of 24 of them (the limit I would imagine to be viable in Ashes with collision) is not able to maintain a full perimeter. This amount of AoE potential is not going to be enough to consider the class to be an AoE specialist, and so will still need a good amount of single target damage.

    Do that, and literally all the rest of this discussion is moot

    they couldn't balance it in one game, however, reflect was balanced in other games. moot point.

    also, you haven't considered that characters had different set of skills in archeage. maybe reflect could have been balanced if other classes had also their skills reworked. you cant simply look at one skill in isolation, you have to look at all the skills.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    they couldn't balance it in one game, however, reflect was balanced in other games. moot point.
    Oh?

    Show me the game that used reflect to get rid of mageballs.
    also, you haven't considered that characters had different set of skills in archeage. maybe reflect could have been balanced if other classes had also their skills reworked. you cant simply look at one skill in isolation, you have to look at all the skills.
    The only viable way to make this happen is to make reflect naturally more powerful against AoE abilities, making that AoE class useless.

    Again, the developers at XL had free reign to make what ever changes were needed. They could code in any ability they could think of and give it to any class they wanted to give it to. As I said before, they had the same tools at their disposal (code) as Intrepid have.

    I'm the first person to argue that things are usually possible in theory - but even I draw the line when professionals tried their hand at a problem and "failed".

    Unless you can show me where a developer has used reflect to deal with mageball, we simply have to assume that since there is an example of professionals not being able to do exactly that despite trying, that it can't be done.

    Could Intrepid come up with something to make it happen? Maybe, but we can't just assume they can.

    You can't come up with a way to do it, I can't come up with a way to do it, XL couldn't come up with a way to do it, this leaves you and I in literally no position to assume it can be done.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    they couldn't balance it in one game, however, reflect was balanced in other games. moot point.
    Oh?

    Show me the game that used reflect to get rid of mageballs.
    also, you haven't considered that characters had different set of skills in archeage. maybe reflect could have been balanced if other classes had also their skills reworked. you cant simply look at one skill in isolation, you have to look at all the skills.
    The only viable way to make this happen is to make reflect naturally more powerful against AoE abilities, making that AoE class useless.

    Again, the developers at XL had free reign to make what ever changes were needed. They could code in any ability they could think of and give it to any class they wanted to give it to. As I said before, they had the same tools at their disposal (code) as Intrepid have.

    I'm the first person to argue that things are usually possible in theory - but even I draw the line when professionals tried their hand at a problem and "failed".

    Unless you can show me where a developer has used reflect to deal with mageball, we simply have to assume that since there is an example of professionals not being able to do exactly that despite trying, that it can't be done.

    Could Intrepid come up with something to make it happen? Maybe, but we can't just assume they can.

    You can't come up with a way to do it, I can't come up with a way to do it, XL couldn't come up with a way to do it, this leaves you and I in literally no position to assume it can be done.

    you still don't get it. if one ability doesn't work because how it interacts with other abilities, it stands to reason to just change that ability or class instead of changing the entire game for that one ability. its possible to make it work, but you have to take a look at the other classes as well..

    example, you have an ability that gives you enough defense to reduce any damage by 95% for 30 seconds. seems op right? how would you balance that? reduce the DR%?, reduce the duration? rework it?
    how about this, what if everybody else had a buff that allows them to pierce enough armor so that the damage reduced by the opponent is 0% instead of 95% and it lasts for 30 seconds. now the first ability doesn't seem that op, right?

    so its possible that reflect didn't work because of all the other aspects of that game, all other classes, etc. and that's my point in AOC. we don't know the full extent of all abilities and augments, only IS do. they could make a magic reflect work, or not,t he same way they could make any other ability work, or not.

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    they couldn't balance it in one game, however, reflect was balanced in other games. moot point.
    Oh?

    Show me the game that used reflect to get rid of mageballs.
    also, you haven't considered that characters had different set of skills in archeage. maybe reflect could have been balanced if other classes had also their skills reworked. you cant simply look at one skill in isolation, you have to look at all the skills.
    The only viable way to make this happen is to make reflect naturally more powerful against AoE abilities, making that AoE class useless.

    Again, the developers at XL had free reign to make what ever changes were needed. They could code in any ability they could think of and give it to any class they wanted to give it to. As I said before, they had the same tools at their disposal (code) as Intrepid have.

    I'm the first person to argue that things are usually possible in theory - but even I draw the line when professionals tried their hand at a problem and "failed".

    Unless you can show me where a developer has used reflect to deal with mageball, we simply have to assume that since there is an example of professionals not being able to do exactly that despite trying, that it can't be done.

    Could Intrepid come up with something to make it happen? Maybe, but we can't just assume they can.

    You can't come up with a way to do it, I can't come up with a way to do it, XL couldn't come up with a way to do it, this leaves you and I in literally no position to assume it can be done.

    you still don't get it. if one ability doesn't work because how it interacts with other abilities, it stands to reason to just change that ability or class instead of changing the entire game for that one ability. its possible to make it work, but you have to take a look at the other classes as well..

    example, you have an ability that gives you enough defense to reduce any damage by 95% for 30 seconds. seems op right? how would you balance that? reduce the DR%?, reduce the duration? rework it?
    how about this, what if everybody else had a buff that allows them to pierce enough armor so that the damage reduced by the opponent is 0% instead of 95% and it lasts for 30 seconds. now the first ability doesn't seem that op, right?

    so its possible that reflect didn't work because of all the other aspects of that game, all other classes, etc. and that's my point in AOC. we don't know the full extent of all abilities and augments, only IS do. they could make a magic reflect work, or not,t he same way they could make any other ability work, or not.

    ~sympathy intensifies~

    Developers always have this much power.

    Developers usually fail at balance. What do you even mean by 'could make it work'?

    Do you really think all those devs out there who choose not to implement things just don't do it because they 'didn't think hard enough about the problem' or 'didn't try enough things'?

    I'm probably taking this too 'personally' but seriously...

    The point is to make a counter to the MageBall while not making Mages terrible/super limited. That's the thing they can't do, that's why it's called 'balance'. You have two competing functions/situations and you try to make them both work. If you can't, you give up and delete one of them.

    (Tradd I'm so sorry)
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    they couldn't balance it in one game, however, reflect was balanced in other games. moot point.
    Oh?

    Show me the game that used reflect to get rid of mageballs.
    also, you haven't considered that characters had different set of skills in archeage. maybe reflect could have been balanced if other classes had also their skills reworked. you cant simply look at one skill in isolation, you have to look at all the skills.
    The only viable way to make this happen is to make reflect naturally more powerful against AoE abilities, making that AoE class useless.

    Again, the developers at XL had free reign to make what ever changes were needed. They could code in any ability they could think of and give it to any class they wanted to give it to. As I said before, they had the same tools at their disposal (code) as Intrepid have.

    I'm the first person to argue that things are usually possible in theory - but even I draw the line when professionals tried their hand at a problem and "failed".

    Unless you can show me where a developer has used reflect to deal with mageball, we simply have to assume that since there is an example of professionals not being able to do exactly that despite trying, that it can't be done.

    Could Intrepid come up with something to make it happen? Maybe, but we can't just assume they can.

    You can't come up with a way to do it, I can't come up with a way to do it, XL couldn't come up with a way to do it, this leaves you and I in literally no position to assume it can be done.

    you still don't get it. if one ability doesn't work because how it interacts with other abilities, it stands to reason to just change that ability or class instead of changing the entire game for that one ability. its possible to make it work, but you have to take a look at the other classes as well..

    example, you have an ability that gives you enough defense to reduce any damage by 95% for 30 seconds. seems op right? how would you balance that? reduce the DR%?, reduce the duration? rework it?
    how about this, what if everybody else had a buff that allows them to pierce enough armor so that the damage reduced by the opponent is 0% instead of 95% and it lasts for 30 seconds. now the first ability doesn't seem that op, right?

    so its possible that reflect didn't work because of all the other aspects of that game, all other classes, etc. and that's my point in AOC. we don't know the full extent of all abilities and augments, only IS do. they could make a magic reflect work, or not,t he same way they could make any other ability work, or not.

    ~sympathy intensifies~

    Developers always have this much power.

    Developers usually fail at balance. What do you even mean by 'could make it work'?

    Do you really think all those devs out there who choose not to implement things just don't do it because they 'didn't think hard enough about the problem' or 'didn't try enough things'?

    I'm probably taking this too 'personally' but seriously...

    The point is to make a counter to the MageBall while not making Mages terrible/super limited. That's the thing they can't do, that's why it's called 'balance'. You have two competing functions/situations and you try to make them both work. If you can't, you give up and delete one of them.

    (Tradd I'm so sorry)

    should we let players balance the game then? you still didn't answer that :D
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    you still don't get it. if one ability doesn't work because how it interacts with other abilities, it stands to reason to just change that ability or class instead of changing the entire game for that one ability.
    I mean, yeah, this is my point.

    The thing is, what doesnt work is the notion of having an AoE focused class.

    Instead of trying to change everything around making that work, you just opt to not give any one class that much AoE.

    Problem solved.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    you still don't get it. if one ability doesn't work because how it interacts with other abilities, it stands to reason to just change that ability or class instead of changing the entire game for that one ability.
    I mean, yeah, this is my point.

    The thing is, what doesnt work is the notion of having an AoE focused class.

    Instead of trying to change everything around making that work, you just opt to not give any one class that much AoE.

    Problem solved.

    why there are games where almost every class is an aoe class? or games where you can build mages as single target or aoe, and they work? better designers? maybe who knows
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    you still don't get it. if one ability doesn't work because how it interacts with other abilities, it stands to reason to just change that ability or class instead of changing the entire game for that one ability.
    I mean, yeah, this is my point.

    The thing is, what doesnt work is the notion of having an AoE focused class.

    Instead of trying to change everything around making that work, you just opt to not give any one class that much AoE.

    Problem solved.

    why there are games where almost every class is an aoe class? or games where you can build mages as single target or aoe, and they work? better designers? maybe who knows

    Games where you can build mages as AoE or single target are obviously not focused on AoE. Making it so players have a choice of AoE or single target makes it possible to limit the amount of AoE they have access to without making the class useless as a whole.

    As I said, this is what XL eventually did in Archeage.

    As to games where almost every class is an AoE class, well, then you dont have the issue of one class being an AoE specialist, do you?
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    you still don't get it. if one ability doesn't work because how it interacts with other abilities, it stands to reason to just change that ability or class instead of changing the entire game for that one ability.
    I mean, yeah, this is my point.

    The thing is, what doesnt work is the notion of having an AoE focused class.

    Instead of trying to change everything around making that work, you just opt to not give any one class that much AoE.

    Problem solved.

    why there are games where almost every class is an aoe class? or games where you can build mages as single target or aoe, and they work? better designers? maybe who knows

    Games where you can build mages as AoE or single target are obviously not focused on AoE. Making it so players have a choice of AoE or single target makes it possible to limit the amount of AoE they have access to without making the class useless as a whole.

    As I said, this is what XL eventually did in Archeage.

    As to games where almost every class is an AoE class, well, then you dont have the issue of one class being an AoE specialist, do you?


    if you have the choice to do ST, AOE or a mix, then you can either focus or become a hybrid. so I'm not sure what you mean by not being specialists. do you mean aoe only? but if there's no other char that can aoe as well as you if you build for aoe, then that makes u the aoe specialist (who can also build single target).

    but you would still have reflect issues, wouldn't u? unless it was done properly. i guess AA devs arent godlike.

    meh arguing over this is kinda pointless. i just think you (and most ppl arguing about this) haven't played many games . i believe you said 5 only? or maybe its a lack of creativity issue. i don't know.

    but saying that something works or doesn't work based off on one other game, plus not having all the info on this game is like interviewing one person about something and then using that as statistics or sample.

    ill excuse myself from this thread and cme back if it gets interesting or after alpha starts ;3
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like the way Albion has handled AoE, should be the way to handle AoE.

    Also making Mages just massive AoE monkeys is a bad idea.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    you still don't get it. if one ability doesn't work because how it interacts with other abilities, it stands to reason to just change that ability or class instead of changing the entire game for that one ability.
    I mean, yeah, this is my point.

    The thing is, what doesnt work is the notion of having an AoE focused class.

    Instead of trying to change everything around making that work, you just opt to not give any one class that much AoE.

    Problem solved.

    why there are games where almost every class is an aoe class? or games where you can build mages as single target or aoe, and they work? better designers? maybe who knows

    Games where you can build mages as AoE or single target are obviously not focused on AoE. Making it so players have a choice of AoE or single target makes it possible to limit the amount of AoE they have access to without making the class useless as a whole.

    As I said, this is what XL eventually did in Archeage.

    As to games where almost every class is an AoE class, well, then you dont have the issue of one class being an AoE specialist, do you?


    if you have the choice to do ST, AOE or a mix, then you can either focus or become a hybrid. so I'm not sure what you mean by not being specialists. do you mean aoe only? but if there's no other char that can aoe as well as you if you build for aoe, then that makes u the aoe specialist

    No, being able to do something slightly better than any other class in the game doesn't make you a specialist at that thing, it just makes you slightly better at it than others.

    Keep in mind, the argument you are now making is exactly what I said was done to fix it in Archeage - they lowered the AoE potential of the class and increased the single target potential to compensate. If you want to say "they can just not make you as strong with AoE but still the strongest class in the game", then sure, that is what I have been saying.

    Doesn't make then a specialist though.
  • DaggialDaggial Member
    edited May 2023
    Shouri wrote: »
    At yesterday's mage discussion on discord, I ended up leaving disgusted after hearing that 3 of the 5 users who joined the call to talk with the devs, joined with the sole purpose of making sure that the mage (a class they will never use) isn't "too strong".

    solid concerns, specially considering how versatile and strong the mage looked compared to the "tank at home" showed previously
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    Monkey Business (EU) is RECRUITING
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