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Pessimistic about the mage

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  • KingDDDKingDDD Member
    Oppressive aoe is fine as long as it isn't the best in every situation and counters exist for those situations where it's good. Objectives, both in sieges and the open world, should spread the population out enough that it isn't an issue.

    If AoE is too weak, there is no problem in the game that the answer isn't bring more bodies.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    Daggial wrote: »
    Shouri wrote: »
    At yesterday's mage discussion on discord, I ended up leaving disgusted after hearing that 3 of the 5 users who joined the call to talk with the devs, joined with the sole purpose of making sure that the mage (a class they will never use) isn't "too strong".

    solid concerns, specially considering how versatile and strong the mage looked compared to the "tank at home" showed previously

    Can you get into more detail on this :)
  • DaggialDaggial Member
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Can you get into more detail on this :)
    Try to imagine a tank player facing a mage, based on what we've seen in both dev updates.
    I don't know about you, but all I can see is the tank trying to chase after the mage, while constantly being slowed, frozen, slept, kited, and while not being able to do anything to his opponent.

    Yes, I know, we'll see what other abilities will both classes have. I'm just judging based on what I've seen so far. Not looking good for the tank guy at the moment :D
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  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Daggial wrote: »
    Try to imagine a tank player facing a mage, based on what we've seen in both dev updates.
    I don't know about you, but all I can see is the tank trying to chase after the mage, while constantly being slowed, frozen, slept, kited, and while not being able to do anything to his opponent.

    Yes, I know, we'll see what other abilities will both classes have. I'm just judging based on what I've seen so far. Not looking good for the tank guy at the moment :D
    Tank literally has a hook that drags their target to them. That hook also gives a debuff that turns into stun when tank uses another ability. And tank also has a dash that sets up a stun as well.

    Mage cannot do shit to the tank rn.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Daggial wrote: »
    Try to imagine a tank player facing a mage, based on what we've seen in both dev updates.
    I don't know about you, but all I can see is the tank trying to chase after the mage, while constantly being slowed, frozen, slept, kited, and while not being able to do anything to his opponent.

    Yes, I know, we'll see what other abilities will both classes have. I'm just judging based on what I've seen so far. Not looking good for the tank guy at the moment :D
    Tank literally has a hook that drags their target to them. That hook also gives a debuff that turns into stun when tank uses another ability. And tank also has a dash that sets up a stun as well.

    Mage cannot do shit to the tank rn.

    Answer: They both build max CC resistance and nothing happens.

    Source: Riktor Vs Fey, Predecessor Midlane 2023.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    Answer: They both build max CC resistance and nothing happens.

    Source: Riktor Vs Fey, Predecessor Midlane 2023.
    That's the ultimate goal imo. Did we have CC resistances in alpha1? Or were you just projecting beyond the "from what we've seen so far" part?
  • DaggialDaggial Member
    edited May 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Tank literally has a hook that drags their target to them. That hook also gives a debuff that turns into stun when tank uses another ability. And tank also has a dash that sets up a stun as well.

    Mage cannot do shit to the tank rn.


    Tank hook range very smol. Tank dash even smoller. Mage abilities very long. Tank can't grab mage. Mage get grab because very bad position.
    xzvwyzmlswkg.png
    Also no info on mage blink. Mage blink looks very long too.
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    Monkey Business (EU) is RECRUITING
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Answer: They both build max CC resistance and nothing happens.

    Source: Riktor Vs Fey, Predecessor Midlane 2023.
    That's the ultimate goal imo. Did we have CC resistances in alpha1? Or were you just projecting beyond the "from what we've seen so far" part?

    There was CC resistance in Alpha-1 as I remember. There might also have been a more general 'Magical Disable Defense %' or something like that. An L2 player would understand what that means much more than me since games I play don't have that sort of thing in that simplistic a form.

    I guess Pred's 'Tenacity' counts but that's what I was referencing, so...
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Daggial wrote: »
    Tank hook range very smol. Tank dash even smoller. Mage abilities very long. Tank can't grab mage. Mage get grab because very bad position.

    Also no info on mage blink. Mage blink looks very long too.
    True, but mage's movement during casting is pretty slow. And with blink's CD currently being the same as grapple's, the tank has one additional movement ability to catch up to the mage. And both of his movement abilities serve as soft CCs with a hard setup. So mage can try constant running, but that wouldn't give him that much dps. While tank at least has a chance to CC the mage and hit him on the head a few times.

    Slumber setups might pay off, but they'd be very risky because you'd have to come close for the max impact.
    Azherae wrote: »
    There was CC resistance in Alpha-1 as I remember. There might also have been a more general 'Magical Disable Defense %' or something like that. An L2 player would understand what that means much more than me since games I play don't have that sort of thing in that simplistic a form.

    I guess Pred's 'Tenacity' counts but that's what I was referencing, so...
    L2's debuffs relied on base stats and could be then modified with buffs (usually just the defense side).

    So smth like mage's sleep could have a 40% chance of going through (against a base lvl of a particular stat) and then the target could get a buff (sometimes items) against sleep-based effects and/or boost that particular stat with tattoos, so the chance would go down.

    I assume that "mag dis def %" is smth similar mechanically.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Ok, FFXI solved this in a different way.

    Every Debuff has an associated element, you build resistance to that element to resist the Debuff.

    Prevents the whole 'General CC resistance saving you from everything'.

    But obviously, complex, so I'm not expecting to see it in Ashes at the moment, not even considering the L2 basis. I guess it could have just been there for testing but I think we've still seen it recently in a stat window.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Azherae wrote: »
    Ok, FFXI solved this in a different way.

    Every Debuff has an associated element, you build resistance to that element to resist the Debuff.

    This was how EQ2 went about it as well.

    I'm obviously biased in this regard, but to me, this is the better solution. It prevents players being able to just be highly resistant to all CC. Sure, you may be highly resistant to ice based CC, but poison or physical based will probably still get you good.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited May 2023
    Daggial wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    Can you get into more detail on this :)
    Try to imagine a tank player facing a mage, based on what we've seen in both dev updates.
    I don't know about you, but all I can see is the tank trying to chase after the mage, while constantly being slowed, frozen, slept, kited, and while not being able to do anything to his opponent.

    Yes, I know, we'll see what other abilities will both classes have. I'm just judging based on what I've seen so far. Not looking good for the tank guy at the moment :D

    They hardly showed any tank skills though? So are we comparing with a class that is even more incomplete?

    If we are than ill agree, if a class incomplete against another it will be at a big disadvantage if they release it like that.

    Now if we are talking about class are that more equal in how much they are completed and skills shown I'm sure both will have advantages and disadvantages. AoC is not designed for 1v1 by the way it is designed as group combat. Some classes will have a strong advantage 1v1.
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    edited May 2023
    Note that while I belive mages should be AoE based, that only applies to the BASE mage and the double down Arch Wizard. Augmentation though secondary archetypes is where other types of mages should come into play. A single target damage mage should be created by a Ranger secondary which gives access to a augment which turns spells that were default AoE into single target spells. This is one of the reasons you shouldn't give single target spells to the base mage, it usurps the role of a Mage/Ranger aka SpellHunter.

    Likewise the heaviest magical CC spells should belong to the Mage/Tank whose augments ramp up the movement imparing effects the enemy suffers, or change simple AoE circular blasts into barriers. Aka FireBall becomes FireWall.
  • Mages specialize in all damage, not just AoE. They are often just the first classes that learn their AoE spells. In an MMO with 64 classes I doubt Mages are going to always have the best AoE in all circumstances. Bosses could specifically resist mages at times as well. I'm against full on class immunities, but I would not put class resistance past them as a possibility during fights. I suspect this exact thing is why they have aspects of your build that you can change.

    Mages being mobile isn't really as bad as it may sound at first because they always take a astronomical dps loss to do that except in WoW. WoW is not designed at any point to be a PvP game though. They merely added it for necessity, but the balance of it's PvP has always been garbage. So that one exception in that one game is pretty meaningless. They always do more damage when stationary and the abilities they can use while moving are usually weaker. Balancing what ones you use is the skill of a mage player.

    The thing is because mage damage is limited by their mana pool. They always do the most damage over classes that have more versatile resources. Burst vs Consistency is a real balance concern, but it's usually always done well in a way that makes sense. The only time it's a problem is when mages have one shot combos with low cooldowns. Which they won't according to all the info said even if what they said does not match what is in playable versions of game. Simply because the game isn't done yet.

    Mages also often do a lot of damage because they are often the only magic damage class in the games they are in. At least they always do the most because all they do is throw spells at a target. They don't usually summon minions to have an excuse to reduce their damage. So they just do more damage to make up for their lack of versatility. The differences is this game might actually have fair counterplay for mages.

    Mage counterplay is always shafted in every game cuz it's always way too strong. thief classes often just jump on you and kill you with virtually no counterplay. Any counterplay they have the automatic advantage for it and all counterplay requires the mage to cast a spell which they won't be able to do because cast time. Alternatively aggressive melee classes that permaslow you and murder you. With their own counters to mages that can often get the mage killed before they can even cast a single spell. It's these class archetypes that are the reason newer implementations of mages have mobile alternative styles so they don't die without doing anything.

    I believe we have a difference in definition of counterplay from the get go. No class should be able to be removed from a fight before they can do at least one rotation of skills. The problem often is that players who play the counters to mages hold a vendetta against the archetype for no good reason. That vendetta should have no say in balance though. It's just blind hate for no reason. I don't really care if 2 archetypes aren't having fun against an archetype because they are only 2 out of 8 archetypes. I only care if 1 archetype stands out as being blatantly op. We are all going to have archetypes we hate fighting. I'm just against stacking everything against a class just because you don't like that class.

    Honestly if people complain about a class. Do the opposite of what they say. The only exception is when literally everyone is complaining about the same class because that only happens when they are op. People who overcomplain should be punished for being whiny little pork sandwiches. That exact thing is what compromises balance of a game. It's annoying when melee classes specifically complain about classes that don't just stand there like an idiot and let you hit them. Like you are supposed to just sit there with your inferior stats and just lose.
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  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Considering the response to my q&a question, the mage has just become a bit stronger. You can't hit your mates awake, so Slumber is now a stronger CC. Yes, bard has a dispel for Slumber, but that stuff will have a CD and bard could be dead or not have mana or just absent completely.

    If sleep resistances won't be all that strong, several mages in a party might definitely become a viable party setup. And a well-coordinated party would be able to out-CC enemies through well-placed Slumbers.

    We'll have to see how this survives alpha2, if at all.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Considering the response to my q&a question, the mage has just become a bit stronger. You can't hit your mates awake, so Slumber is now a stronger CC. Yes, bard has a dispel for Slumber, but that stuff will have a CD and bard could be dead or not have mana or just absent completely.

    If sleep resistances won't be all that strong, several mages in a party might definitely become a viable party setup. And a well-coordinated party would be able to out-CC enemies through well-placed Slumbers.

    We'll have to see how this survives alpha2, if at all.

    idk, in FFXI any health heal wakes you...
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    NiKr wrote: »
    Considering the response to my q&a question, the mage has just become a bit stronger. You can't hit your mates awake, so Slumber is now a stronger CC. Yes, bard has a dispel for Slumber, but that stuff will have a CD and bard could be dead or not have mana or just absent completely.

    If sleep resistances won't be all that strong, several mages in a party might definitely become a viable party setup. And a well-coordinated party would be able to out-CC enemies through well-placed Slumbers.

    We'll have to see how this survives alpha2, if at all.

    I mean, there are other methods they could employ to break sleep.

    Honestly, attacking your allies to break it is kinda jank. I'd expect a better mechanic than that.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Azherae wrote: »
    idk, in FFXI any health heal wakes you...
    Yeah, we'll have to see how it interacts with other abilities, but considering the bard's mention, I feel like only that spell and non-mate attacks will wake you up.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    NiKr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    idk, in FFXI any health heal wakes you...
    Yeah, we'll have to see how it interacts with other abilities, but considering the bard's mention, I feel like only that spell and non-mate attacks will wake you up.

    I would expect the cleanse from Clerics Cleansing Wave to deal with sleep, among other effects.
  • NiKrNiKr Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    I would expect the cleanse from Clerics Cleansing Wave to deal with sleep, among other effects.
    Oh, yeah, you're right, general cleanses would be expected to clear it to.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    NiKr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I would expect the cleanse from Clerics Cleansing Wave to deal with sleep, among other effects.
    Oh, yeah, you're right, general cleanses would be expected to clear it to.

    Oh wait, to be clearer, any targeted 'standard' healing spell does it.

    So I can't Regen someone to do it, regardless of the tier of Regen, but any Cure/Cura/Curaga, etc will do it.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • LowQueyLowQuey Member
    Personally I think the best mages are the ones that are balanced around both damage and utility. I think ashes will ultimately have to make sure the debuff function will have to decide this. Fire will likely be front loaded damage, electric back loaded, frost control, and earth protection. All have viable places in any mmo. As a whole the main balance with mages has to come from intrepid taking all of these into account. Mages are one of the hardest classes to balance due to the often high damage, mobility and utility, but ensuring they have a have a counter (normally rogue/assassins) tends to balance them out. I think sensible rock paper scissors approach tends to work best for balance overall in an mmo and ensures every class has its uses.
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