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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
The odd thing still is that I haven't said anything negative about PvE.
Sure for a synthesis between PvP and PvE both need to exist. That this synthesis is not occuring and the game in what is currently its scope is running the clear risk of being unsuccessful seems to be your worry if I understood you correctly. Fair enough, but I don't really share that worry (assuming I got your point).
I'm not listening to you exclusively. Because last time I checked you are not the sole authority on the matter. Neither am I that is why I am asking the forum, to get a broader understanding what it means to people that are not you or me.
Then you should have asked that as an open question. That way people can respond to what they consider pve.
Instead you lead in with a paragraph about polls, and then completly change the topic to a different question. Ofcourse people are going to adress your first paragraph as well.
One thing i find curious, why did you do it this way, instead of using one of the many free polling websites, makeyour own poll, and post the link here.
Thank you for then context @Noaani.
My context is likely a bit misinformed according to the new context, I am someone who has never played an MMORPG. And so I may not be able to provide meaningful data to this question.
What I will say is without knowing how well the economy is designed, with respect to the variable value rates of the different resources with varied rarity, its very difficult to answer if gathering in Ashes (as we see it now) has enough draw to really pull me into the game.
Hope this helps inform my data point
What you did is you went and asked a bunch of mostly PvP players to define PvE content for you.
On the one hand, Noaani speaks for me in this matter, but not necessarily my group.
On the other hand, I am probably close to being the 'PvX player' Intrepid desires/is marketing to. You can decide based on knowledge of me how true that is.
I have not joined this conversation because it is pointless to have two debaters in a situation where the thing being debated is being debated somewhat properly and points are being made on both sides. This is why forumers here seem to not have the tendency to try to browbeat with numbers until one side starts losing and attacking the 'winner' as if they are 'solo and talking nonsense'.
You are reaching the 'browbeat with numbers' stage. Let me know if this post means anything to you or if I should inform the others to appear.
I don't even have words to describe the level of assumed authority to define for others what is "positive", "negative" or can or cannot contribute to another players PvE experience.
This is like dealing with Arya_Yeshe all over again who preached "the carebear manace [...] it's the number one duty of all gamers, everybody who denies this is a backstabber of the gamming community. It is because of them that games became garbage over the years." like he was on some kind of crusade.
This reads exactly like the deus vult BS back then and I won't bother with this any longer. You think Ashes' PvE is lacking, great. I disagree - and obviously made a bad attempt at trying to find an answer what others think about this as you are not the end all be all on the matter. Time will tell whether you are right or not but unfortunately i was informed nothing could give us even a hint, a tiny sliver of information in which direction the community as a whole is thinking on this topic.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/53828/dev-discussion-45-gathering-and-pvp
No, it really doesn't. We can certainly have that discussion, but it doesn't affect this topic or the definition of gathering in general. These are two different things, two different topics.
No, that's not part of this logic at all. It seems like you're trying to shift the goalposts for the discussion and making a strawman argument. People, in general, are able to discern the difference between raiding and gathering as two distinct aspects of PvE, and they judge the game based on each aspect they are interested in. There is generally no confusion about that for people, except maybe for you? A raider doesn't look at a game, see a forum post claiming the game is mostly PvE, and automatically assume it's for them. The same goes for someone who enjoys gathering as their main focus. Both types of players investigate each specific PvE activity to determine if the game is suitable for them.
The thing that decides whether or not gathering is a PvE or PvP activity is how the Economy of the game works, and is entirely separate from whether or not the game itself even allows character-v-character PvP.
'Gathering' in FFXI, a PvE game, is PvP content, because the things you gather are mostly worthless to NPCs.
Gathering in BDO, a PvP game, is almost PvE content (not actually, because there's no versus if you're being even remotely serious about it) and very occasionally PvP content (if you're crazy).
The entire discussion is pointless except that when we know which one Ashes chooses by its economy (it's not actually explicitly implied that it is one or the other just yet, let's do the usual easy answer and call it PvX) we would be able to discuss it then.
Oversimplification leads us to what? 'Arguments' over semantics that don't even address the design?
We might as well ask 'Is RolePlaying PvE content?'
If you like exploring and such gathering will further increase the value of that with your adventures as you collect items and work together making cool gear to tackle more difficult adventures.
Thinking more on it i feel it is pretty important to some pve players that are not just focused on the combat, i have some guild members that avoided pvp but enjoyed the pve gathering stuff.
edit*
after new world i can appreciate gathering more so though and am very interested in how AoC is approaching it, i think it will be a lot of fun. Past experiences i found it hard to understand how people enjoyed gathering and such with it not being that complex but people have different taste and values at what they put stuff at. So for a pve player gathering can be very important to their experience hence at this point ya I consider that important for pve.
Though I'd be glad to know what specific detail you are pointing to here. As Vaknar said, a gatherer makes for a profitable target to loot. This is in line with my thesis that Ashes has no artificial wall between PvP or PvE but a system where one will inevitably increase incentives to do the other - a true PvX where X can become E, P or even the time the player can spend online. But - I'm not sure if that is what you wanted me to read or something else?
I liked the timer idea you brought up in regards to gathering though that seemed more like a PvP mitigation topic than anything else and I would wonder whether this could mean to Rogue and Rogue augmented characters would become the "unbalanced" strong because they'd be able to retain more of their gathered items on a net balance.
In another comment you mentioned that low level bots aren't a problem, which I strongly disagree with. If the game designers do not allow for automated farming then someone installing that into their system externally is a problem - to them as in charge of the program and owners of this product. But if I remember correctly we can also hire handymen to help us with chores on the free hold, so I suspect Intrepid has its ideas for how the economy is supposed to function, one of the components is that low level crafting items will produce components when dismantled from which higher level items will be crafted to keep even lower level gear relevant.
I cant go through all pages and comment on everything in the hope this was what you were trying to point me to, but generally an interesting side discussion to the one we are having here. I appreciate it!
We could ask that if it serves the purpose of the discussion.
But I am asking about gathering because it was rejected by Noaani as a legitimate aspect of what players would describe as an enjoyable part of their PvE experience. Since my statement was purely about what the opinion of people, not about semantics, I tried to find out whether I was indeed mistaken and standing alone in thinking that gathering in particular was integral to a fun PvE experience. Mainly because I don't think "gathering" is just the "clicking on resource > loot Y repeat" but the whole cycle of walking around, dealing with the (usually) mobs in the area or the mobs specifically to tame them, the exploration to find places where rare resources are available.
The view on what gathering is makes it clearly a key factor in what makes PvE worthwhile. I got no hate if someone sees that differently, but just saying "no, nobody thinks this way" without any proof and just laying claim that this statement now applies to all, is not how it goes. And I assume when it comes to a game developer trying to figure out what a potential playerbase wants, then the perception of gathering being PvE is all that matters even if a technical definition would exclude it from that category. They want the players and if the players say "gathering is PvE to me and I want PvE" gathering labeled PvE they will get.
And before this part of the discussion gets reheated, I realize that not everyone thinks a made a very good job at explaining my stance or approaching the community about it. Fair enough, but I don't know how to better ask the community, than by simply making a post about it and let all voices be heard instead of having someone claim to speak for all.
I'll agree with you that the discussion is pretty pointless
We probably keep going in circles because some people only want to focus on the purpose of the activity, while others focus on the activity in and of itself. Gathering can be done to further PvP, while the activity in and of itself is PvE. EVE Online is a great example of this.
I also think some people think of the word versus as if it implies back and forth action, and without that it's not PvP or PvE. That's just a basic misunderstanding of the term though. One side can be completely passive and it can still be a versus thing.
I expect the purpose of gathering in Ashes will be to both further PvE and PvP on the personal level and on the node/region level. But that's not what the question in this thread is about. The question is, "does gathering count as PvE content for you?" Period, full stop. The context and purpose being that Killion is going to do a number of polls with different questions that tries to answer "what satisfies players desire for PvE content".
As for RolePlaying, if we only limit ourselves to those two boxes or categories (PvE and PvP), then RolePlaying is clearly PvP. The same goes for any other chat. I would suggest we add a third category for text or voice based social interactions though, and put it in there
The question presupposes that Gathering isn't just 'its own category of content'. At best it forces people to 'try to shoehorn Gathering into PvE or 'not PvE'.
I'm basically 'requesting a better question' so it can be answered instead of 'Killon ending up arguing with Noaani until loss of the will to do so', which I feel like is all we got...
If it is satisfying someones desire for PvP or whether they view it as neither PvE nor PvP to, the option to select "No gathering is not PvE to me" is there.
I intended to come back after a few days at which point we could have looked at the results and asked ourselves what nuances could have led to the results we saw and we could have looked at the "No"s and make further distinctions in motives as you have brought up just now. I didn't see any reason to rush and overload the first post Clearly, that failed.
That's on me for not understanding the point, then.
Basically, "why make a poll and not just ask the question and wait for answers?" was my thought. I didn't actually assume it was disingenuous, though I'll sorta-assume Noaani did.
I'll ping the squad for your data collection.
Just a clarifying question here: Does something have to actively fight back and attempt to kill you (or win) for you to consider it a "versus" aspect? In other words, are you only considering the "actively adversarial" part of the meaning of "versus" when it comes to an MMORPG, and not considering the other parts?
First, Competition =/= PvP. People compete over mobs to grind. People compete over resources to gather. Everything in AoC has potential to erupt in PvP, but the act itself is not PvP because it does not specifically require you to engage in combat against another player.
PvP content would consist of anything which requires you to engage in combat against another player. Things like Caravans, which specifically have an Attacker/Defender flag when you choose to participate, Castle Siege, Bounty Hunter, Node/Clan Wars, are all examples of "PvP Content"
Gathering in Ashes is part of the PvE gameplay. You cant reach those rocks without fighting through mobs.
You cant chop those trees without being attack by some mobs.
Gathering is part of PvP as well. Other people will be after the same gatherables like you. Your presence will annoy them. They will try to get you killed so that they can enjoy the gatherable rich area.
Gathering will be part of a groupgameplay, as all things should be in competitive mmos. Open world pvp mmos. Once again, a good mmo doesnt distinguish between PvE and PvP. It as to build a world where nothing is scripted and you can trully interact with other players, whilst having a protective mechanism for the whole game, like the flagging system.
In most other mmos I found gathering was putting me to sleep. Firstly because there was no PvP. PvP was only at the arenas or PvP zone. The mobs would be ignored due to short leash, or I would 1-shoot them.
Not precisely that, but to avoid writing another super long post, let's go with 'yes, in that it must prevent a challenge beyond pattern matching'.
That's why gathering can't be classified, for me. It depends on the game. It depends on the player's level. It depends on the mechanical difficulty sometimes. The 'Versus' part of the game has to be 'beyond basic pattern matching'.
I think I can clarify it best this way. Sailing is very borderline PvE if there are currents, especially if they can change. Rod and Bait Fishing is generally just below the 'PvE' marker, it falls into 'Gathering'. Adding Minigames doesn't change that part.
I'd like to avoid semantics discussion but... regarding the other parts of the meaning of the term 'versus'... what exactly do you mean here? I only know that word to mean a state in which there is opposition, and opposition by my lang definitions is active.
I see, I suspected as much.
While the term "versus" often implies opposition or competition, like you say, it can also refer to a comparison or contrast between two entities without any hostile or antagonistic connotations. In some cases, the use of "versus" simply signifies a comparison or differentiation between two options, perspectives, or elements. So, while active opposition is a common association with "versus," it is not an absolute requirement. I look at the full spectrum of the meaning of versus when it comes to PvE and PvP.
To go with a mining example, in the literal sense, the "versus" aspect of PvE mining in an MMORPG can be seen between the player character's pickaxe and the rock itself as a part of the game environment. This represents the physical confrontation between the player character's tool and the resistance of the rock. The player character exerts effort and skill to break through the rock's hardness and extract the desired resources, emphasizing their agency, strength, and determination.
It doesn't have to be challenging either. For example, the "versus" aspect can arise from the player's interaction with the environment or the object they are mining. It can be about exerting effort or overcoming resistance, even if the task itself is relatively straightforward. In this case, the opposition may not be challenging, but it still represents the player's active engagement and their ability to overcome obstacles.
To bring it up a level beyond the immediate action, mining often involves overcoming environmental challenges. Players face hazardous or hostile environments with aggressive creatures or dangerous traps. The "versus" element arises as players strive to overcome these environmental dangers. @killion mentioned this earlier.
On this level you can also argue for a PvX definition of gathering if other players are commonly part of those dangers while mining. But that's a very game dependent definition then, and I don't think Ashes will be so PvP heavy that it's common to contest the gathering of everything.
I can say with absolute certainty that I do not consider 'apply pickaxe to rock' to be a 'versus' in any game, so I agree. I will ping @JustVine since it would probably be beneficial to the discussion for her to mention her stance too, as she is likely to be the only person in my group who would have voted 'yes', and might want to know this part of the potential context.
@Kilion can clarify if PickVRock is included in PvE (with little or no other aspects of 'E' involved, which is how I'm taking this.
The other environmental dangers you mentioned are inconsistently present. So in much the same way that I don't really think of ganking someone afk as "PvP content" in a game where doing so gains you nothing (BDO for example), I don't think of 'gathering herbs on the hill in Alpha-1; as 'PvE content'.
That probably is max clarification from my end. Grati pur do.
Kilion's post was super confusing and I agree with what others have said here. The question is wrong and Gathering sort of fits its own category.
Over all gathering is an activity. Unlike farming mobs it is in a bit more of a vacuum than others and needs slightly more parameters defined.
If you can gather anything in safety and there is no prerequisite to navigate dangerous areas to get to it or if it is 'difficult to find and requires exploration to find it repeatedly' then it isn't either PvE or PvX. Gathering things in a freehold safezone would fall under this category. There are many games where you do not need to do anything to gather something other than hit a button.
But that's just the thing. You can add a ton of elements to 'Gathering' to get a different Pv? result. It spawns randomly in possibly confusing/hidden locations on an unknown timer? Definitely PvE in my book. Need to get through mobs? Definitely PvE. Need to contest it or the mobs you need to get to it, to gather it? PvX. Is the worth of the good dependent on getting a niche in the market with enough volume to control it? Closer to PvP at that point, especially if you had to do some PvX to get to it.
In a vacuum whether or not gathering is PvE is up to level designers and economists. With open world PvP and no data on the economic model I just assume it's PvX by default unless designed otherwise.
This part is for mostly Nerror only and mostly just 'semantic clarification' so devs can ignore.
I would call Pick vs Rock irl PvE because it is a skill and costs meaningful time, stamina, location, transport, etc. All of which are relatively simplified and far less risky than on their online counter parts. There is generally no 'stamina system for mining' in most games and even ones that do generally present no meaningful TRADE OFF to the player. If a system forces that person to stand in place and exert a stamina system to some equivalent of the risks entailed in real life, sure, then maybe I would call it 'PvE'. But let's be real, most games do not do this and the ones that do usually flunk to a broader audience because people don't have time for that.
I'm far more liberal than Azherae here but I STILL generally disagree with basically everyone who 'votes yes here' because it's the wrong question and needs way more context.
As for the player skill and challenge arguments, I definitely want those aspects to be present, but I don't believe it changes any definitions. If the gathering system lacks any way to be a challenge, or at the very least doesn't encourage efficiency optimization as a player skill, it's still PvE; it's just bad and boring PvE.
Edit: On a side-note, this is why semantics are important. When people can't even agree on basic dictionary definitions of a word like versus, or in this case specifically which of the definitions to use, discussions just end up with people talking past each other.
I think the reason why I think the thing you label 'bad and boring PvE' is flawed and possibly bad to label PvE is because it legitimizes it as gameplay. It isn't. There are no choices being made, no experiences being had beyond 'press button get stuff'. It's a mechanic at best.
I look at this as full lifeskilling id only say he shouldn't have just said gathering but the entirety of all of life skilling rather than breaking it up. My answer is in to all of the life skills not just part of it and players feel it is important to their experience and will fight over it.
If we were to just ignore your assertion that harvesting is PvE, then this statement of yours suggests your answer to the correct question (is harvesting the kind of PvE content that would attract guild level PvE players to Ashes) would be no.
Keep in mind, that is the point. The discussion started as being about the kinds of content Ashes needs to attract people that prefer PvE, but accept and perhaps even sometimes enjoy PvP.
As I said right at the start, the question here is wrong. First and foremost due to it being taken out of context, but also due to it being asked extremely poorly.
So, essentially, your answer to the proper question, based on this quote, is no. You believe that people can tell the difference between guild based activities (ie, raiding), and harvesting.
To be fair, it isnt your fault the question was so poorly worded.
By this definition, do you consider gear or build comparison to be PvP content?
Becauser that is literally comparing one player versus another player.
That question was explored in the thread that spawned this discussion.