[SURVEY] Is Gathering PvE Content?

Kilion

Kesthely wrote: »

Here is a question for you all, in a PvX game, does it ultimately matter what if an individual player thinks a system is pve or pvp, isn't the fact that it can be both, more important for a PvX game?

Great point. Since this discussion has been an expanding one I laid out my opinion on some occasions already. I'll just copy them here and highlight the core message.

Kilion wrote:

Intrepid is designing this game to be PvX and calling it PvX for (amongst other reasons) the fact, that PvE and PvP will not be separated as if they do not belong together. In this game they will, you get one, you'll also get the other, the mixing ratio might change depending on the situation. [...] There is no need for more separation of PvP and PvE because that runs counter to the fundamental design idea of the game. [...]

Kilion wrote:

I think the PvP "VS" PvE debate is a bit misleading in the end. There has to be a reason why it is called PvX.

And it might just be me trying to create a reason for this term to exist but here are my two cents on that:

It is explicitly marketed as PvX because the intended game design is that of players not deciding to do "either or" but both depending on the "cycles/seasons" the games environment will go through. There will be periods of predominantly PvE, new Nodes establish, new PvE content and with it new resources will unlock as these Nodes level up, people gear up for whats to come; PvP in this "part of the cycle" is lower as there seems to be an abundance of new stuff to do.

But this period of growth is limited.

As Nodes grow, so does their ZOI, reducing change in nearby Nodes, limiting growth, limiting new PvE stuff to do. At some point even the parent Nodes will reach their final size, so the focus of players shifts from acquiring more resources (new crafting materials, new spaces for freeholds, and so on) to competing over what is already there. This is the "PvP season" that at some point peak in a final clash between two big powers (Tier 6 Node VS some other faction). PvE during this time will be lower until the incentives become higher again (e.g. being able to build up "your own" Node to become the powerhouse in the region) and hurdles become lower (as players will migrate in and out after a ZoI falls).

TL;DR: I think Intrepids definition of PvX and goal for Ashes of Creation is
"PvE creates the need and incentives for PvP, while PvP creates the need and incentives for PvE"
As such neither of them can be seen as optional to create a good MMORPG and cannot be seen as two forces working against each other but two pieces of a whole.

But hey what do I know, I'm just reading the tea leaves here.

@JustVine Apologies for messing up

hleV

Gathering is PvE as in not PvP, but gathering is also not PvE as in not killing mobs. Is the poll meant to show how many interpret "PvE" as one thing or the other? What a person calls PvE might even depend on the context.

Kilion

hleV wrote: »

Gathering is PvE as in not PvP, but gathering is also not PvE as in not killing mobs. Is the poll meant to show how many interpret "PvE" as one thing or the other? What a person calls PvE might even depend on the context.

No, which is why the original post does not mention PvP at all, to avoid creating a false dichotomy. If for whatever reason someone thinks that gathering does not scratch their PvE itch, they can all choose "No" even though the reason why they think so might differ. No need to rush, we can discuss what reasons are someone says "No".

Nerror

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

No, that's not part of this logic at all. It seems like you're trying to shift the goalposts for the discussion and making a strawman argument. People, in general, are able to discern the difference between raiding and gathering as two distinct aspects of PvE

If we were to just ignore your assertion that harvesting is PvE, then this statement of yours suggests your answer to the correct question (is harvesting the kind of PvE content that would attract guild level PvE players to Ashes) would be no.

Keep in mind, that is the point. The discussion started as being about the kinds of content Ashes needs to attract people that prefer PvE, but accept and perhaps even sometimes enjoy PvP.

As I said right at the start, the question here is wrong. First and foremost due to it being taken out of context, but also due to it being asked extremely poorly.

So, essentially, your answer to the proper question, based on this quote, is no. You believe that people can tell the difference between guild based activities (ie, raiding), and harvesting.

To be fair, it isnt your fault the question was so poorly worded.

Please don't do that. That's a really dishonest discussion tactic. Your question is a different question, not the correct question, and not the question posed in this thread. My answers are for the questions posed here, not for the ones you make up in your head. Is harvesting the kind of PvE content that would attract guild level PvE players to Ashes? Yes, if the guild level PvE players like harvesting, and the system is well made, obviously it would attract them.

Based on previous comments I assume what you really mean by guild level pve is raiding. Raiding focused guilds obviously look primarily at the raid systems, and artisan skill focused guilds obviously look at the artisan systems. Most people like more than one thing. I don't expect Ashes to have quite the level of artisan skill based guild level PvE content that a game like EVE Online does though. It would be amazing if it did, considering how important resources will likely be in Ashes.

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

While the term "versus" often implies opposition or competition, like you say, it can also refer to a comparison or contrast between two entities without any hostile or antagonistic connotations. In some cases, the use of "versus" simply signifies a comparison or differentiation between two options, perspectives, or elements. So, while active opposition is a common association with "versus," it is not an absolute requirement. I look at the full spectrum of the meaning of versus when it comes to PvE and PvP.

By this definition, do you consider gear or build comparison to be PvP content?

Becauser that is literally comparing one player versus another player.

If it's part of an actual gameplay loop and not just a social interaction, yes, it would PvP.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

Please don't do that. That's a really dishonest discussion tactic. Your question is a different question, not the correct question, and not the question posed in this thread.

Yes, but this question was spawned from another thread with the OP wanting to use this poll as a means of saying I was wrong when I said the bulk of PvE players don't consider harvesting to be PvE.

Based on previous comments I assume what you really mean by guild level pve is raiding. Raiding focused guilds obviously look primarily at the raid systems

Yes, but I am attempting to not talk specifically about raiding. There are other content types that are at the guild level but not necessarily raiding.

Also, different games have different ideas of what raiding is. Raid content in FFXIV as an example is essentially what I would call group content.

If it's part of an actual gameplay loop and not just a social interaction, yes, it would PvP.

Comparing gear between players is always a part of the greater gameplay loop of characcter and guild progression.

How about this. Imagine you are playing a game like EQ2 or WoW, in a top end raid guild. You are a pure DPS class. When you use a combat tracker to compare your DPS output to the others in your guild, is that PvP?

Note that I used these two games because this comparison is a kep part of the core gameplay loop here.

I mean, you are literally comparing your output as a player with the output of another player.

Nerror

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Please don't do that. That's a really dishonest discussion tactic. Your question is a different question, not the correct question, and not the question posed in this thread.

Yes, but this question was spawned from another thread with the OP wanting to use this poll as a means of saying I was wrong when I said the bulk of PvE players don't consider harvesting to be PvE.

Based on previous comments I assume what you really mean by guild level pve is raiding. Raiding focused guilds obviously look primarily at the raid systems

Yes, but I am attempting to not talk specifically about raiding. There are other content types that are at the guild level but not necessarily raiding.

Also, different games have different ideas of what raiding is. Raid content in FFXIV as an example is essentially what I would call group content.

If it's part of an actual gameplay loop and not just a social interaction, yes, it would PvP.

Comparing gear between players is always a part of the greater gameplay loop of characcter and guild progression.

How about this. Imagine you are playing a game like EQ2 or WoW, in a top end raid guild. You are a pure DPS class. When you use a combat tracker to compare your DPS output to the others in your guild, is that PvP?

Note that I used these two games because this comparison is a kep part of the core gameplay loop here.

I mean, you are literally comparing your output as a player with the output of another player.

I don't know enough about FFXIV to say anything about that, but for WoW it's a primarily a social interaction, not part of the actual gameplay loop. Maybe I should have used the word inherent instead of actual here.

Using a combat tracker to compare DPS is not an inherent part of WoW's designed gameplay loop. WoW's gameplay loop primarily centers around questing, crafting, dungeons, raids, PvP, and character progression. Players sometime create additional loops and activities, such as optimizing DPS and comparing gear, to enhance their personal experience, but those are not inherently part of the game itself.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

Using a combat tracker to compare DPS is not an inherent part of WoW's designed gameplay loop.

It wasnt at launch, it is now.

You can't defeat the top end raid content in either game without working on your DPS in a somewhat extreme manner - and comparing your DPS to others is the only means you have of assessing where you are at.

Kilion

Noaani wrote: »

Yes, but this question was spawned from another thread with the OP wanting to use this poll as a means of saying I was wrong when I said the bulk of PvE players don't consider harvesting to be PvE.

Who exactly are you to tell others what I think? I'm making this poll to find out whether people of this forum see gathering as part of their PvE experience or not. If the results are numerous enough or show a clear trend towards either "Yes" or "No" I accept the answer no matter which way it leans. You trying to tell others "I kNoW wHaT KiLiOn Is ThInKiNg, OnLy LiStEn To Me" is the lowest BS you can pull.

Why not let the community decide when you are so confident in your stance? Since you are so sure about the outcome, let the community prove you right. But no, all we get from you is claims to truth and mind reading magic.

Get a grip and stop putting words in other peoples mouth.

Nerror

Ok, if it's built into the game now (without any player-made addons) and the game designers specifically intend for you to use it as a gameplay loop to determine if you are geared and skilled enough to participate in raids, then yes, it's a form of PvP. A crappy form of PvP IMO, but like I said earlier, something being badly designed doesn't change what it fundamentally is. If it's still addon based, it's not inherent, but a player made addition.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

Ok, if it's built into the game now (without any player-made addons) and the game designers specifically intend for you to use it as a gameplay loop to determine if you are geared and skilled enough to participate in raids, then yes, it's a form of PvP. A crappy form of PvP IMO, but like I said earlier, something being badly designed doesn't change what it fundamentally is.

So, Intrepid not adding a combat tracker to the game was really them denying people PvP?

As to you thinking it is a crappy form of PvP, I'm sure you would agree that this is subjective. If we are going to call that PvP (I am not, for the record), then it is probably my favourate form of PvP.

Nerror

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Ok, if it's built into the game now (without any player-made addons) and the game designers specifically intend for you to use it as a gameplay loop to determine if you are geared and skilled enough to participate in raids, then yes, it's a form of PvP. A crappy form of PvP IMO, but like I said earlier, something being badly designed doesn't change what it fundamentally is.

So, Intrepid not adding a combat tracker to the game was really them denying people PvP?

As to you thinking it is a crappy form of PvP, I'm sure you would agree that this is subjective. If we are going to call that PvP (I am not, for the record), then it is probably my favourate form of PvP.

Correct. It's subjective, hence my "IMO" And I am very happy Intrepid is denying us this form of crappy PvP

Noaani

How about when you are looking at buying something off the marketplace, and you are comparing the price one player is asking for versus the price another is asking for.

Is that PvP? I mean, buying and selling is a core part of the gameplay loop of most MMO's - and indeed the economy is one of the things Intrepid have said will separate Ashes from other games.

I know we have talked about the marketplace being PvP before - but in the specific scenario where you are comparing the price of two different players offerings, that is literally comparing players against each other.

tautau

I am not sure that everything one does 'in game' has to be split between the PvP and the PvE categories of activities. Those are somewhat antiquated definitions and it would be really useful (at least to me) to define something as (for example) an 'economic activity' (as in @Noaani 's example above) and whatever other labels our community finds useful and needed.

I can see why AoC uses PvP, PvE and PvX to describe itself since the gamer community at large is accustomed to those terms. Given the depth of discussions we have on these forums, I think they are inadequate.

Nerror

Yes, marketplace PvP is absolutely a thing in some games, where people compete over prices and such. It's one I can enjoy sometimes, but not as a primary focus. I don't think we know enough about Ashes yet to really determine the level of it though. We are also getting quite offtopic here I think, but if nothing else it bumps the thread up I suppose, so maybe we can get more people voting.

Noaani

tautau wrote: »

I am not sure that everything one does 'in game' has to be split between the PvP and the PvE categories of activities

Yeah, this is kind of my point.

PvP is fighting players.
PvE is fighting mobs.
Gathering and crafting are gathering and crafting (some call this aspect of the game lifeskilling - not a term I've ever cared for, but whatever).
Questing is questing.
Economic activities are their own thing.
Home decoration is it's own thing.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

Yes, marketplace PvP is absolutely a thing in some games, where people compete over prices and such. It's one I can enjoy sometimes, but not as a primary focus. I don't think we know enough about Ashes yet to really determine the level of it though. We are also getting quite offtopic here I think, but if nothing else it bumps the thread up I suppose, so maybe we can get more people voting.

What about dueling? It generally isn't a core part of the gameplay loop, so isn't PvP, right?

Nerror

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Yes, marketplace PvP is absolutely a thing in some games, where people compete over prices and such. It's one I can enjoy sometimes, but not as a primary focus. I don't think we know enough about Ashes yet to really determine the level of it though. We are also getting quite offtopic here I think, but if nothing else it bumps the thread up I suppose, so maybe we can get more people voting.

What about dueling? It generally isn't a core part of the gameplay loop, so isn't PvP, right?

If there's a /duel function in the game, it's pvp. It's typically not a major gameplay loop, just a minor one, but it's an inherent and intended part of gameplay.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

Yes, marketplace PvP is absolutely a thing in some games, where people compete over prices and such. It's one I can enjoy sometimes, but not as a primary focus. I don't think we know enough about Ashes yet to really determine the level of it though. We are also getting quite offtopic here I think, but if nothing else it bumps the thread up I suppose, so maybe we can get more people voting.

What about dueling? It generally isn't a core part of the gameplay loop, so isn't PvP, right?

If there's a /duel function in the game, it's pvp. It's typically not a major gameplay loop, just a minor one, but it's an inherent and intended part of gameplay.

But this leads back to combat trackers. Developers intentionally open up the games combat logs (and sometimes API) to make this happen. Their intention is indeed for them to be a part of the game, just a part of the game that they leave up to third parties. A large part of why developers leave this to third parties is because people often need/want to go over this at times and in places where accessing the game isn't possible.

It is absolutely intended and inherent to the game and it's gameplay. It is also a part of a much larger gameplay loop than dueling (which is a self contained loop - more of a gameplay dot than loop).

Nerror

tautau wrote: »

I am not sure that everything one does 'in game' has to be split between the PvP and the PvE categories of activities. Those are somewhat antiquated definitions and it would be really useful (at least to me) to define something as (for example) an 'economic activity' (as in @Noaani 's example above) and whatever other labels our community finds useful and needed.

I can see why AoC uses PvP, PvE and PvX to describe itself since the gamer community at large is accustomed to those terms. Given the depth of discussions we have on these forums, I think they are inadequate.

For sure, that is why Killion made this poll I am pretty sure. To see where the community is on definitions. It would be a much more productive forum if everyone could alt least agree on using the same definitions for everything. There seems to be a clear split when it comes to defining gathering as PvE content or not.

Perhaps we should drop the PvE term altogether and call killing mobs Player vs Mobs (PvM) if that's what some people really mean when they say PvE. I am pretty sure that's what they do in Runescape. You know what, I think I'll start using that from now on. That actually makes sense.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

For sure, that is why Killion made this poll I am pretty sure.

No, he made it in an attempt to prove me wrong.

Perhaps we should drop the PvE term altogether and call killing monsters Player vs Mobs (PvM) if that's what some people really mean when they say PvE. I am pretty sure that's what they do in Runescape. You know what, I think I'll start using that from now on. That actually makes sense.

If we were going to set some definitions to agree on, then it would be basically the ones I listed above - because that is how this discussion has been divided in basically every game (actually literally every game) I have ever had anything at all to do with.

As I am sure you may remeber from the PvP/PvE thread you started, that isn't even my own personal definition of PvE. What it is, is a commonly accepted definition of the terms.

akabear

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= YES =

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But note to OP, how about edit your original post and add a strawpoll !

Kilion

akabear wrote: »

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= YES =

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But note to OP, how about edit your original post and add a strawpoll !

Tbh i have no idea what that is :')

Raven016

If you compete with other players for the gatherables, is PvP content
If you just fight with NPCs, then is PvE
If you do not fight at all, then is player vs bot content. Especially if you can run a second instance of the game on another computer or GeForce Now and only click or move once in a while. I see that also a pay to win content.

Tearl Stoneheart

My "Yes" vote was to indicate that I think gathering is a PvE activity. Environmental hazards (corrupted areas/poisons/aggro mobs) are still Environment. I do NOT look at a PvE activity as a passive, safe activity. This is AoC of course, so there's more to it...
Attacking a gatherer or defending yourself as a gatherer is a PvP activity. This is where you engage with other players.
If you are trying to get support for the notion that gathering should exclude the PvP aspect, then I will remove my vote altogether. And by doing so, I still would consider gathering a PvE activity, with PvP risks.

CROW3

It’s neither and both.

Noaani

Tearl Stoneheart wrote: »

My "Yes" vote was to indicate that I think gathering is a PvE activity. Environmental hazards (corrupted areas/poisons/aggro mobs) are still Environment. I do NOT look at a PvE activity as a passive, safe activity. This is AoC of course, so there's more to it...
Attacking a gatherer or defending yourself as a gatherer is a PvP activity. This is where you engage with other players.
If you are trying to get support for the notion that gathering should exclude the PvP aspect, then I will remove my vote altogether. And by doing so, I still would consider gathering a PvE activity, with PvP risks.

@Tearl Stoneheart

Would you be able to explain to me where the "versus" part of "player versus environment" is in harvesting?

I will happily agree that harvesting is a part of the environment, and indeed that a player is involved - but there is no "versus" between said player and the environment to be had.

Noaani

CROW3 wrote: »

It’s neither and both.

This is the correct answer.

akabear

Kilion wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

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= YES =

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But note to OP, how about edit your original post and add a strawpoll !

Tbh i have no idea what that is :')

Strawpoll is an online poll creation site. Great for simple polls like this.

https://strawpoll.com/create/?gclid=CjwKCAjwhdWkBhBZEiwA1ibLmLJTmz06UEnu0hIGnfQCZJCCiXQA-A74RQQZqtkMsKElqMIrXAvA3xoCFWIQAvD_BwE

Heljy

Kilion wrote: »

I'll preface this by begging for a proper feature to conduct surveys and do polls (Unless I am just incapable of finding that feature in the forum) to get as accurate an opinion on the matter as possible.

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So there have been a few discussions recently that boiled down to the question

"What is PvE content?"
(1) Is Gathering contributing to YOUR satisfying PvE experience?

Shoutout to @Noaani for bringing this up.
To find out what people see as PvE content or not I would like to conduct a number of polls to find out what satisfies players desire for PvE content.

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How to participate:

The poll will be structured to be "Yes" or "No" questions.
Read the white colored question above and then like one of the two comments below that you align with. In 2-3 days I'd like to come back to this threat and discuss the results. PLEASE LIKE ONLY ONE OF THE OPTIONS.

Hi! I understand the idea of conducting an investigation to discuss it afterwards. That said I have a small problem with the order you use.

What I learned for the survey was that the quantitative survey was used to control the theories of the qualitative survey.

Basically:
1- Qualitative survey (Discussion groups, debates, etc.) to collect trends
2- Quantitative survey with the items identified in step 1, to monitor trends.

Kilion

Given the amount of participants there is no way to make any conclusive statements about this matter, but what I do notice is that the votes aren't swinging strongly either way amongst those who did vote.

Edit:
I assume the reasons why people would vote "NO" are mainly:
- They see Gathering as a supportive game system that neither aligns with PvP nor PvE
- That while they in enjoy Gathering, for them it is more of a PvP activity (competing for resources with others because in Ashes it will be open world PvP most of the time)
- They don't care about Gathering at all and could do with a different, much more simplified system that provides resources (fair enough )

In any case thanks for the participation!