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[SURVEY] Is Gathering PvE Content?

KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
edited June 2023 in General Discussion
I'll preface this by begging for a proper feature to conduct surveys and do polls (Unless I am just incapable of finding that feature in the forum) to get as accurate an opinion on the matter as possible.


So there have been a few discussions recently that boiled down to the question
"What is PvE content?"
(1) Is Gathering contributing to YOUR satisfying PvE experience?

Shoutout to @Noaani for bringing this up.
To find out what people see as PvE content or not I would like to conduct a number of polls to find out what satisfies players desire for PvE content.
How to participate:
The poll will be structured to be "Yes" or "No" questions.
Read the
white colored question above and then like one of the two comments below that you align with. In 2-3 days I'd like to come back to this threat and discuss the results. PLEASE LIKE ONLY ONE OF THE OPTIONS.

The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
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Comments

  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    -= YES =-

    Gathering counts as PvE content for me
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    -= NO =-

    Gathering does not count as PvE content for me
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    The reason there is no facility for polls on these forums is because Intrepid don't want us to run polls - because some people mistakenly place some value in them.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    How can poll amongst those whose opinion would be of primary concern to the matter - if participation is high enough - not mater? Or what would be the criteria for the poll be valird and of value to you?
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Kilion wrote: »
    How can poll amongst those whose opinion would be of primary concern to the matter - if participation is high enough - not mater?
    There are a number of reasons.

    First, if the questions aren't worded properly, they can lead respondents to one answer over others.

    Second, there is a bias in polls towards what ever the first answer is.

    Third, an individual question on a topic is never going to give any meaningful data.

    Fourth, without a proper introduction to the questions (plural), respondants may be answering based off of false assumptions.

    Even proferssionally run polls are to be taken with a grain of salt - let alone amateur polls.
  • CawwCaww Member, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Incoming comment: Gathering can be a frustrating activity when competition for the nodes erodes any chance of just getting some stuff to carry on crafting or sell, it turns into a large time sink more than anything else and fails the "satisfying" portion of the poll question (for which I did provide a proper No response).
  • LashLash Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    In ashes it is both. There is things like open world PvP battlegrounds where the objective is to gather resources from the ruins of a destroyed node. Then there is more traditional resource gathering with less expectation of pvp.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    How can poll amongst those whose opinion would be of primary concern to the matter - if participation is high enough - not mater?
    There are a number of reasons.

    First, if the questions aren't worded properly, they can lead respondents to one answer over others.

    Second, there is a bias in polls towards what ever the first answer is.

    Third, an individual question on a topic is never going to give any meaningful data.

    Fourth, without a proper introduction to the questions (plural), respondants may be answering based off of false assumptions.

    Even proferssionally run polls are to be taken with a grain of salt - let alone amateur polls.

    So are you suggesting that my attempt to poll this topic is already completely irrelevant?
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Kilion wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Kilion wrote: »
    How can poll amongst those whose opinion would be of primary concern to the matter - if participation is high enough - not mater?
    There are a number of reasons.

    First, if the questions aren't worded properly, they can lead respondents to one answer over others.

    Second, there is a bias in polls towards what ever the first answer is.

    Third, an individual question on a topic is never going to give any meaningful data.

    Fourth, without a proper introduction to the questions (plural), respondants may be answering based off of false assumptions.

    Even proferssionally run polls are to be taken with a grain of salt - let alone amateur polls.

    So are you suggesting that my attempt to poll this topic is already completely irrelevant?

    Any poster attempt at polling anything is irrelevent.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Quite the convenient take.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • Are the gatherables part of the Environment? Yes

    Does the gatherables pose a direct threat to the player? Not Usually, but they can.

    Like making certain plants and flowers have a chance to apply poisons/debuffs to the player,
    making mineral veins having a chance to spawn dangerous stone elementals when mined
    or dangerous forest guardians when taking down trees.

    For me personally? I really don't care.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Kilion wrote: »
    Quite the convenient take.

    I mean, it isnt.

    It's why Intrepid staff can run polls here and the rest of us cant. They explained it a while ago - though I cant remember if it was Vaknar, Margret or Trost.

    There is even quite the body of literature on how hard it is to write polls without either intentional or unintentional bias. It's one of those things where I'm quite happy for you to not take my word for it, but at least look in to it yourself for a few minutes.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    "Is gathering PvE content?"

    "Mu" (the question is wrong).
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Are the gatherables part of the Environment? Yes

    Does the gatherables pose a direct threat to the player? Not Usually, but they can.

    Like making certain plants and flowers have a chance to apply poisons/debuffs to the player,
    making mineral veins having a chance to spawn dangerous stone elementals when mined
    or dangerous forest guardians when taking down trees.

    For me personally? I really don't care.

    That's exactly why I asked for whether people perceive gathering as part of their PvE experience, instead of asking them to define gathering. All the definitions in the world mean little if they are unable to serve a purpose in a discussion.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Kilion wrote: »
    All the definitions in the world mean little if they are unable to serve a purpose in a discussion.
    Wait, so you know you asked a question on an undefined term, yet you still think a poll is valid?
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Wait, so you know you asked a question on an undefined term, yet you still think a poll is valid?

    I asked the question that we disagreed on, which was not "what defines PvE" but whether or not PvE players will be attracted to the game with what it is going to offer. One of these components that COULD satisfy a PvE players desire is gathering: Hence the questions to ask have to gauge exactly that, independent of whether that suits your or mine definition.

    If Gathering satisfies the PvE desire of PvE players, then that would mean your argument has become a bit weaker that Intrepid is not doing enough.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Harvesting/Crafting is a different catagory imo.
    PvP = player vs player
    PvE = Player vs environment (Tree and things dont typically fight back so cant realy say vsing envirment there)
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Kilion wrote: »
    I asked the question that we disagreed on, which was not "what defines PvE" but whether or not PvE players will be attracted to the game with what it is going to offer.
    That isn't the question you asked.

    We were having a discussion, and that discussion had some context. This poll removed that context.

    See, gathering cloth in WoW could be considered a PvE activity, because you have to kill mobs to get it. Same with skinning in many games. If someone had that in mind when reading the question, they would probably answer yes.
    One of these components that COULD satisfy a PvE players desire is gathering
    But that also isn't the question that you asked.

    @Tearl Stoneheart @Liniker @JustVine @SkylarckTheBotanist @Laetitian @Nerror @Jhoren

    As of now, that is the list of peopel that have answered yes to the above question - I would like to add context to the question, in order to see if any of you would keep the same answer.

    The context is in regards to getting players running guild based content in their current game of choice. The question isn't "is harvesting PvE content", the question in context shoud be "is gathering content as we understand it to be in Ashese likely to convince players happily running guild content with their friends in a game now to leave that game for this game, generally speaking.".

    Does anyone think the answer to that is still "yes"?
    If Gathering satisfies the PvE desire of PvE players
    Your poll has no means of determining if a respondent is primarily a PvP or PvE player, or an equal split.

    Are you even starting to see why Intrepid have disabled polls for us?
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Harvesting/Crafting is a different catagory imo.
    PvP = player vs player
    PvE = Player vs environment (Tree and things dont typically fight back so cant realy say vsing envirment there)

    Comes down to how people define it. I didn't ask for the definition because by clicking "No" someone would also be able to show that this is not what they perceive as part of PvE, while by clicking "Yes" they can indicate that it is - independent on how exactly each and every single one defines PvE.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    @Noaani yep I can see it.

    There is no point trying to talk to people anymore, because they are even trying to tell you now what you think.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Kilion wrote: »
    There is no point trying to talk to people anymore, because they are even trying to tell you now what you think.
    Just to be clear, this is what you have claimed to have been asking in this thread
    whether or not PvE players will be attracted to the game with what it is going to offer.
    Yet this is what you actually asked.
    Kilion wrote: »
    Gathering counts as PvE content for me
    Sure. people may be giving their opinions - but on what. Are they giving their opinions on the question you claimed to have asked, or on the question you actually asked?
  • Noaani wrote:
    the question in context should be "is gathering content as we understand it to be in Ashese likely to convince players happily running guild content with their friends in a game now to leave that game for this game, generally speaking.".

    I think it's more likely to convince PvE players than PvP players. There are still enthusiasts on both sides, and even in the pure PvP crowd. I'd say that's because it's a type of PvE that offers lots of opportunities for PvP, such as resource contestation.

    But I'd say the bulk of players who want intricate crafting systems and would go so far as to switch games for them alone (assuming all else equal) would come from a primarily PvE community, and yes, intricate and individualised crafting systems would help them feel like Ashes lets them get to engage in the PvE type of content they crave.

    Lots of flaws in your premise though. Switching games is a huge barrier of entry that you can't expect cool PvE combat/bosses to be the sole determining incentive for either. For now it would be plenty if a good crafting system would entice currently game-less players to commit to Ashes. The hype would gradually draw players from existing games over time.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Laetitian wrote: »
    Noaani wrote:
    the question in context should be "is gathering content as we understand it to be in Ashese likely to convince players happily running guild content with their friends in a game now to leave that game for this game, generally speaking.".

    I think it's more likely to convince PvE players than PvP players.
    This wasn't the question - not that I am blaming you. The OP asked the question in potentially the worst way possible.
    But I'd say the bulk of players who want intricate crafting systems and would go so far as to switch games for them alone (assuming all else equal) would come from a primarily PvE community, and yes, intricate and individualised crafting systems would help them feel like Ashes lets them get to engage in the PvE type of content they crave.
    Would you be confortable with me taking this to mean that you think an intricate crafting system could signify to such a player that the game may have the kind of PvE content they are after - rather than being that content in and of itself?
    Lots of flaws in your premise though. Switching games is a huge barrier of entry that you can't expect cool PvE combat/bosses to be the sole determining incentive for either. For now it would be plenty if a good crafting system would entice currently game-less players to commit to Ashes. The hype would gradually draw players from existing games over time.
    The flaws are in the question from the OP here.

    The premise is fairly simple. In order to attract players currently playing one game for mostly one content type, a game needs to provide those players a similar type of gameplay experiene. Not indenticle, just generally similar. A guild that is raiding in one game but considering a move to a new game is not likely to consider the mining in a potential new game to be worth consideration.

    Similarly, I wouldn't expect someone that plays MMO's mostly for PvP to be all that interested in the crafting and harvesting system in a potential new game either. However, with a game like Ashes, I would expect any given player in that raiding guild and that PvP player to both get about the same amount of use out of the crafting and harvesting system should they both move to that game - as a generalization.

    That was essentially the premise here. I don't see it as being flawed at all - though again the OP of this thread has acted poorly in communicating the above to you and others in this thread.

    As an aside, I want to talk briefly abotu the barrier of entry point you bought up - because that is a somewhat new point to this discussion (quite honestly, since this is a discussion that has been going on for a few years on these forums, well done for pointing out something that hasn't been discussed).

    While you are right in that there is still a high barrier of entry for players leaving one MMO to go to another, that barrier of entry is infinately bigger if the game in question doesn't have suitable content. There is obviously no single "this design will get everyone playing this game", there are still things that could and should be done in order to get as much of the transient or ready to move MMO population as possible (at least, those that are suited to the game in question).
  • KesthelyKesthely Member
    edited June 2023
    The dangers with polls is not how you ask stuff, or what the awnsers are, but how you use certain data.

    Most often people only see what they want to see in an outcome. People consider gathering a PVE content? Good, we can advertise that we have multiple pve activities.

    Additionally people who read, and take polls, are generally not the average player. The average player, doesn't read forums, or consumes content for their game, they just play it. This means that the awnsers of polls, are ALWAYS from the invested few people, even if you do manage to get a large sample size. It has no relevance for any demographic.

    Last, polls have a tendency to generate a socially desirable outcome. Not many people awnser how they truelly feel, if that is different then the perceived response.

    In the above question, do you consider Gathering a PVE content, is already ambiguous. i awnsered no, because, to me it isn't content, its part of a bigger turn wheel that is the content while you could argue that every subsection of the bigger contend (in my opinion crafting) is a pve activity, Does that mean that every subsection is PVE activity Yes? No? thats open for determination, and even with such a simple question you already have a dilemma, how to interpret it, and whats the creators thought behind the question. Then (this is why polls usually don't show how many people have awnsered a question) you have the follow the horde mentality. x people have awnsered yes, well i guess its pve content, so i should just awnser yes. Even if you do not (fully agree) with it.

    And this is just a simple question, a simple topic, with, little of no invested stakes.
  • JhorenJhoren Member
    edited June 2023
    Of course gathering is part of the Player vs. Environment experience. It's quite literally in the name. Plants, rocks, harvestable animals are all part of the game environment that the player actively interacts with. The versus part doesn't mean it has to involve combat at all.

    Whether or not a player finds gathering enjoyable and adding to the game in a positive manner has absolutely no bearing on the definition of PvE. PvE is a fairly wide umbrella-term for many activities, which includes gathering and combat against computer controlled entities, regardless of how much people enjoy it.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    I am quite honestly shocked how overly serious people take this topic. Sinister motives to manipulate public perception, herd mentality, trying to spin narratives to ones own end, forcing Intrepid into changing development directions - What?!

    I'm trying to ballpark what scratches peoples itch for whatever they define as "PvE content". If anything, I am trying to get a greater sense of what active members of the forum see as enjoyable PvE.

    Sure, this is not accurate science but he doomy "this is not telling anyone anything" or pseudo psycho analysis going on is way beyond anything I am trying to achieve here. I just wanrt to know what I wrote in the question by people clicking on one of the options given. It's a tiny piece of data, not a meta study of the gaming indurstry, not instructive data for Intrepid, no oppressive command for anyone thinking differently to not participate, not "the truth", just the gathered opinion of people.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Well, you already know my take on it, but yes, obviously and clearly gathering is PvE. It's like asking if ham is pig meat. Yes, clearly it's pig meat, no matter if you like ham or not, or if you're vegan or whatever. Ham is pig meat and gathering is pve. That's it and that's all. ;)
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Jhoren wrote: »
    Of course gathering is part of the Player vs. Environment experience. It's quite @Jhoren literally in the name.


    Can you explain to me please where the "versus" part of PvE is when mining.

    If you want to take a literal meaning of the term, there needs to be an aspect of it that is versus.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Nerror wrote: »
    Well, you already know my take on it, but yes, obviously and clearly gathering is PvE. It's like asking if ham is pig meat. Yes, clearly it's pig meat, no matter if you like ham or not, or if you're vegan or whatever. Ham is pig meat and gathering is pve. That's it and that's all. ;)

    The problem with this take is - as we discussed earlier - is that it then requires us to consider aspects of a game such as a broker system to be PvP.

    Now, since the entire point of this discussion (across three threads now) is in relation to Ashes being a game to attract people of a given preference in regartds to MMO content, in order for you to believe the above, then you have to believe that to pend raiders consider mining rocks to be the kind of content that will convince them as a general population to come to a game.

    By this logic, that means we should see many PvP players coming to Ashes for the marketplace PvP.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited June 2023
    Kilion wrote: »
    I am quite honestly shocked how overly serious people take this topic.
    Any comment someone makes that imparts any negative inferrence towards PvE on these forums will immediately be met with disdain from me.

    The PvE content Intrepid make for this game is literally the difference between the game having Tabula Rasa success, or Tera success.
    I'm trying to ballpark what scratches peoples itch for whatever they define as "PvE content".
    And I am literally trying to tell you what this is specifically.

    The problem is, you are just not listening.
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