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Happy with Freeholds acquisition method.
Liniker
Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
After discussing this with my community and putting together some thoughts, I wanted to make a separate thread to voice my satisfaction with the current iteration of freehold acquisition and provide a more in-depth answer on why the new changes regarding freehold acquisition and limited numbers are extremely positive for the game, and not a reason for concerns.
I'd like to begin by addressing some of the concerns that are being brought up, by players that are unhappy with the changes due to their realization that Ashes is actually a group-centric MMORPG.
- RMT
A non-issue when it comes down to the recent changes. This is simply reflecting the lack of arguments against the changes, as Steven himself replied yesterday on Discord
the nature of open player-to-player trading already introduces that "issue" in the game and to a much much worse degree. The BiS Legendary and Legendary unique tier items will be able to be traded, you would be able to buy literal Power with RMT skipping the need for freehold entirely. RMT is a separate issue that will need to be addressed but freehold being bought with gold is one of the least worrying things about this.
"but with RMT you can get them first" - you can only buy a freehold at level 50 so not only you need the gold, but also you need to put in the hours and grind, only the most dedicated players will get those first freeholds, not RMTers.
- Bidding is bad
What were people expecting? Did someone actually think that you wouldn't need an extremely high gold investment to acquire an open-world piece of land in an MMORPG? There is absolutely no difference from fixed price to bidding, because if Intrepid did fixed price that amount would need to go up according to demand/supply and would also need to be EXTREMELY high... why?
Because freeholds are 1.5 acres and as this post shows
It is impossible that with 480 km2 land mass, we have over 2000 freeholds. There is no physical space for all the 50 000 players on each server to own their freehold, so what is the solution? delay the game for +10 years and boost the world size 10x? shrink the freeholds?
Bidding is not what makes them limited in quantity, and bidding is not the reason a casual player won't get a freehold before large guilds. There was never a possibility for a casual player to be able to compete and get to a certain level and farm the resources Before organized groups that have multiple, hundreds of players working together, unless you made RNG freeholds acquisition which would be the worst, most ridiculous system ever.
If there is any amount of grind/gold/level competition involved, there is no hope for less dedicated players to beat the most dedicated players, and Ashes is not a game where "everyone is a winner" This is their core philosophy players WILL be rewarded accordingly. So what is the issue here?
- Steven lied when he said everyone can get a freehold if they put in the work
How is that statement a lie? he never said you would get a freehold on day 1, he never said how hard or what was his definition of putting in the work. If you are a casual player and you save up gold, you WILL eventually be able to bid and win a freehold when one becomes available, and Intrepid added freehold trading to make sure this will happen. Everyone, eventually, will get the opportunity to own a freehold, if you put in the work, after all... this is a monumental achievement, as it should be.
- Intrepid sold freehold cosmetic skins
"Everything is subject to change" and here is a screenshot from Ashes of Creation's Terms of Service that you can find under "In Game Purchases" https://ashesofcreation.com/terms-and-conditions
Despite that, Intrepid will already be offering refunds in the form of Embers to anyone that bought freehold skins, as they did with crossbows. Problem solved.
- Everyone will be homeless
In most MMORPGs that is true, in some there isn't even any housing system at all, in Ashes players will have access to not only Instanced apartments with storage, and furniture but also in node open-world housing, which is more than what you get in multiple popular MMOs, so why are some players acting like the game is doomed because you can't get a land piece? What about flying mounts? castles? Legendary gear?
Ashes was always a game where we would have multiple tiers of content for different players, why should that be different for their housing system?
It does feel amazing to have a legendary sword that you walk around and everyone recognizes because it's so dam rare - it's also amazing to have the land you worked so hard to get and everyone desires, this adds purpose to the game, makes it so that housing isn't just another system that you roll through but you actually need to either join an organized group of people or put in the work to get one some day.
This is the feeling many of us want, and if you are not willing to join guilds, make friends, forge alliances, or put in the work, maybe Ashes of Creation won't be a game for you.
EDIT:
*I'd like to add some extra details
- Locking players behind professions
Many people simply did not understand the system for making this assumption. The limited number of freeholds does not mean only the freehold owners will be processors.
Everyone can do processing WITHOUT access to a freehold. You can do processing up to T3 (T4 is basically your BiS endgame, and T5 is legendary) but there is even more to it.
It was said that freeholds are FAMILY content, each family member can have access to all processing stations and level their profession, so if there is 3000 freeholds that's not just 3000 end game processors.
Each owner can invite up to 7 people and all the 8 family members will be able to get the highest tiers of processing so with 3000 freehold that's 24k endgame processors, 48% of the server
which honestly, by the way they described "masters" in the profession before, that would be so difficult and rare that you would be recognized in your region, I never, ever expected the number to be so high.
Finally, I'd like to leave a screenshot of a thread I've made last year. I think this is my best post and it remains true now more than ever.
Thread:
I'd like to begin by addressing some of the concerns that are being brought up, by players that are unhappy with the changes due to their realization that Ashes is actually a group-centric MMORPG.
- RMT
A non-issue when it comes down to the recent changes. This is simply reflecting the lack of arguments against the changes, as Steven himself replied yesterday on Discord
the nature of open player-to-player trading already introduces that "issue" in the game and to a much much worse degree. The BiS Legendary and Legendary unique tier items will be able to be traded, you would be able to buy literal Power with RMT skipping the need for freehold entirely. RMT is a separate issue that will need to be addressed but freehold being bought with gold is one of the least worrying things about this.
"but with RMT you can get them first" - you can only buy a freehold at level 50 so not only you need the gold, but also you need to put in the hours and grind, only the most dedicated players will get those first freeholds, not RMTers.
- Bidding is bad
What were people expecting? Did someone actually think that you wouldn't need an extremely high gold investment to acquire an open-world piece of land in an MMORPG? There is absolutely no difference from fixed price to bidding, because if Intrepid did fixed price that amount would need to go up according to demand/supply and would also need to be EXTREMELY high... why?
Because freeholds are 1.5 acres and as this post shows
It is impossible that with 480 km2 land mass, we have over 2000 freeholds. There is no physical space for all the 50 000 players on each server to own their freehold, so what is the solution? delay the game for +10 years and boost the world size 10x? shrink the freeholds?
Bidding is not what makes them limited in quantity, and bidding is not the reason a casual player won't get a freehold before large guilds. There was never a possibility for a casual player to be able to compete and get to a certain level and farm the resources Before organized groups that have multiple, hundreds of players working together, unless you made RNG freeholds acquisition which would be the worst, most ridiculous system ever.
If there is any amount of grind/gold/level competition involved, there is no hope for less dedicated players to beat the most dedicated players, and Ashes is not a game where "everyone is a winner" This is their core philosophy players WILL be rewarded accordingly. So what is the issue here?
- Steven lied when he said everyone can get a freehold if they put in the work
How is that statement a lie? he never said you would get a freehold on day 1, he never said how hard or what was his definition of putting in the work. If you are a casual player and you save up gold, you WILL eventually be able to bid and win a freehold when one becomes available, and Intrepid added freehold trading to make sure this will happen. Everyone, eventually, will get the opportunity to own a freehold, if you put in the work, after all... this is a monumental achievement, as it should be.
- Intrepid sold freehold cosmetic skins
"Everything is subject to change" and here is a screenshot from Ashes of Creation's Terms of Service that you can find under "In Game Purchases" https://ashesofcreation.com/terms-and-conditions
Despite that, Intrepid will already be offering refunds in the form of Embers to anyone that bought freehold skins, as they did with crossbows. Problem solved.
- Everyone will be homeless
In most MMORPGs that is true, in some there isn't even any housing system at all, in Ashes players will have access to not only Instanced apartments with storage, and furniture but also in node open-world housing, which is more than what you get in multiple popular MMOs, so why are some players acting like the game is doomed because you can't get a land piece? What about flying mounts? castles? Legendary gear?
Ashes was always a game where we would have multiple tiers of content for different players, why should that be different for their housing system?
It does feel amazing to have a legendary sword that you walk around and everyone recognizes because it's so dam rare - it's also amazing to have the land you worked so hard to get and everyone desires, this adds purpose to the game, makes it so that housing isn't just another system that you roll through but you actually need to either join an organized group of people or put in the work to get one some day.
This is the feeling many of us want, and if you are not willing to join guilds, make friends, forge alliances, or put in the work, maybe Ashes of Creation won't be a game for you.
EDIT:
*I'd like to add some extra details
- Locking players behind professions
Many people simply did not understand the system for making this assumption. The limited number of freeholds does not mean only the freehold owners will be processors.
Everyone can do processing WITHOUT access to a freehold. You can do processing up to T3 (T4 is basically your BiS endgame, and T5 is legendary) but there is even more to it.
It was said that freeholds are FAMILY content, each family member can have access to all processing stations and level their profession, so if there is 3000 freeholds that's not just 3000 end game processors.
Each owner can invite up to 7 people and all the 8 family members will be able to get the highest tiers of processing so with 3000 freehold that's 24k endgame processors, 48% of the server
which honestly, by the way they described "masters" in the profession before, that would be so difficult and rare that you would be recognized in your region, I never, ever expected the number to be so high.
Finally, I'd like to leave a screenshot of a thread I've made last year. I think this is my best post and it remains true now more than ever.
Thread:
![img]](https://i.ibb.co/P6QSfh4/oficial-baner.png/img])
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27
Comments
The closing statement in particular is *chef's kiss*.
Encore.
And as i said in another thread:
Open world freeholds will truly be very exclusive competitive assets like i expected and that certainly amuses me.
Kudos to you mate.
Aren't we all sinners?
Great, I'll buy yours when you win your bid. And, given that it's now second-hand, I'll expect a discount.
"so why are some players acting like the game is doomed because you can't get a land piece"
Because of the the fact that so many things are tied to your Freehold? There are several systems like animal husbandry, farming, top level processing/crafting, etc. It's almost a requirement to have one if you want to experience certain stuff in the game, but that stuff will basically be denied to you, because large powerful zergs will control most of it. The same large and powerful zergs who can also just destroy any nodes they want to, which in turn destroys the freeholds in that node.
They will just get all the best stuff before anyone else (inevitable), meaning they will only keep getting richer and richer due to having access to highest tiers of crafting, farming, animal husbandry, and other ways of making money. MEANING, they won't have to sell their freeholds to other plebs, EVER, and there isn't really a way to outbid them (because remember, they're rich, and they're first to get rich), to overthrow them, nothing.
Not everyone is going to be in a large zerg guild, so the whole argument about encouraging group play etc. doesn't really apply here where you're playing against guilds with hundreds of members while you are in a group of a few dozen at best, often less than that.
You can work your ass off, playing 12h a day, grinding with a group of friends, and you still won't be able to outbid large rich guilds, because they own everything, and they have more money than you ever will. This is a problem with scarcity, combined with the fact that Freeholds are that powerful and the fact that they offer things that are exclusive to them.
There are several ways to adjust this.
Imo, Freeholds should come in various sizes (like in Archeage, you had large and small farm plots, houses, etc.). Those large Freeholds that were showcased, should really be there only for the most dedicated players/groups (aka the rich), but there should also exist small and medium Freeholds (for regular players, that aren't as rich). They will generally have less space (1/2 and 1/3 of the space of the showcased Freehold). This just means there will be more freeholds in general, which means more chances for regular players to own one. That doesn't mean everyone just gets to own one, you still need to work for it, and work to outbid other regular players. Even though bidding system does sound stupid to me, but okay (again, rich zergs will just be able to outbid anyone).
Remember, there's already a way for rich zergs to control an area, and it's via owning a node. Why do you also need to monopolize Freeholds?
Archeage at least had castles for that, and to me it didn't matter that I, or my guild, didn't own one. We still had our farms, we were doing trade-runs, occasional pvp, dungeons, etc. But in Ashes, you won't be able to farm shit, because apparently that's something only an exclusive bunch of players should have access to.
Another thing is to remove the highest tier crafting being exclusive to Freeholds, and in general make them not as desirable for every player. They should be desirable only for certain players, that either want to go fully into max lvl crafting, animal husbandry, farming, etc. It shouldn't be desirable for players that just want a home to decorate (because they can use other types of housing for that), and it's not gonna be desirable for them because of the amount of work needed to obtain a Freehold, compared to other types of housing.
It's not about "everyone being a winner". Even as a hardcore player in a group, you'll likely end up not owning shit. So, despite working incredibly hard and putting hours and hours into game, you're still out of luck, because some idiot with a zerg guild has decided that you don't get to experience the game fully. That sort of power should never be allowed to large guilds, because who are you to dictate how others play and experience the game? If I want to work hard and put hours into the game, grinding for a freehold, I should then be rewarded for it. I'm not asking that the game gives it to me for free after 3h into the game.
Archeage had its problems with land grab, but at least it offered anyone who was fast enough to just obtain some land and do some farming, and earn money that way.
Especially things like farming, animal husbandry and the like. If a freeholds is *required to even do that kind of stuff* then AoC is going to lose a lot of players.
Should the best forge with mass production value be exclusive? Absolutely.
Should the biggest stables with masses of beautiful animals and npc stablehands be exclusive? Sure.
Should the biggest farms with the most effective npc workers be exclusive? No problem.
But I really hope that the game at least offers all players a fair shot at doing whatever profession they like to a at least proper endgame point (given time and hard work). A small but super dedicated farm, a small house with some good quality pens for mount breeding, or a small local smithy should not require the player to be a member of the elite club nor a 12+ a day player.
But this is not correct, they are not locking those professions behind owning a freehold. You can do processing without owning a freehold, its just the highest endgame processing. Also, crafting is available in scientific nodes, and btw the best crafting (T4 and T5) is only available at scientific nodes - so do you think this is also gate keeping? because if I want to live in a military node or a divine and have access to content available on those nodes, I can't do end-game crafting.
Ashes is a game about choices, you can not have everything, you can not be everything, you can do Crafting up to T3 outside scientific nodes - as well as you can do processing up to T3 without owning a freehold, and you can do T4 and T5 processing by being in a family that has access to a freehold, so get your social skills leveled, find a guild, get a family and you will be able to achieve your goals.
I have not seen anyone arguing for "getting everything" nor "being everything". I honestly do not know why you (and a few others) keep arguing like that is a thing.
And for the record, myself and my community are definitely within the category of being nerdy enough with enough spare time to be able to pool resources and achieve some land. At the best locations? Nah, but somewhere? Definitely. For *our* sake, the update was almost exclusively good news.
BUT - we really believe that the small solo players ("losers" for some to be "winners'), new players and casual group of friends needs to stick around for everyone's benefit. There must be some way for them to do what they want to do without being in the "winner"-category or AoC is going to be suffering from such a player shortage that each player WILL be able to get a freehold each.
If some casual gamer with no established community wants to be a breeder but can't because that requires freeholds then there is no choice to make. "Get gud scrub" or "get friends lel" is not a good argument, because most of those casual will simply rather leave and do their "life skilling" elsewhere. Leaving the "winners'" by themselves. And if there are no losers left.... Then guess what? Everybody IS a winner!
I hope stables (that according to previous information was exclusive to freeholds) will at least be available to some extent to node houses. Same goes for farming and all of the other ones that have previously been specified as freehold exclusive.
This.
I've always know I'd never have a flying mount, be a mayor, own legendary items or be the pvp and caravan king. I'm 100% fine with that.
None of those address the concerns around farming and animal husbandry being tied to Freeholds.
This is perhaps the one thing that could use some more thought. It would be a shame if there wasn't an alternate way for players to be able to be a processor at max level, given that freeholds will be somewhat exclusive.
What are those 2 red arrows pointing at? Are those not 2 processing professions? And did Steven not say that processing can be done in a node?
Yes, you won't be able to do top lvl processing in a node, but if you're at the top (or about to enter top) of a lucrative profession (which processing seems to be) - you'd either have money or connections to get yourself a freehold with the required buildings.
Tbf they're just using confusing language at this point. In no way would I ever associate planting shit that grows up to be harvested later on as "Processing".
But where exactly will you be able to plant stuff, if not on your own farm that's within a Freehold? I do understand you can process materials and craft stuff in nodes/towns, but farming and animal husbandry just doesn't fit in there whatsoever.
See the ambiguous use of word processing here. Farming is a processing artisan profession. Then below that, Farmed materials can be processed...
There's gathering, processing, and finally crafting? Processing is just using raw materials to make ingredients for crafting professions?
As for how we can do that in the node, either out apartments could have a small plot of land on a balcony or smth, or there'll be an instanced greenhouse in the node that can be used by all citizens.
@Fantmx @Dezmerizing
"Freeholds are the ultimate level of housing" according to Steven, is it so hard to accept that YES you CAN have Housing in AoC as a Solo player - you can have apartments, inns, in-node open world housing with your own garden, all that available for solo players, you can do all the processing, all the crafting up to T3, but ONLY the last tier, the "ultimate" or the "monumental achievement" of getting a freehold is a group effort?
and it's not even impossible to get it as a solo it just requires a monumental effort to save up resources to buy one if you Refuse to join guilds and play in a group (in a group-focused game) but again, you can get all the other housing as a solo without putting that much effort.
How is that a bad thing or how is that a "change" in a game that was ALWAYS meant to be group-focused how can you create false expectations that you would/should own EVERY type of housing playing solo in a game inspired by EVE online, Archeage, L2, is that reasonable?
Not even mentioning that for everyone to be able to own a freehold, they would need to shrink them 3x their size again, maybe more, and ruin the current iteration, because there is no physical space in the world for 50 000 6km2 freeholds in 480km2 of land.
The space problem is artificially created and they can also solve it if they want, by opening more servers.
Ok I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about, that's not how the game works.
As for the scarcity of freeholds, in and of itself it's not a big problem if it wasn't because they gate 1/3 of the artisan system behind it, including things that are traditionally heavily favoured among the casual players, like farming or running taverns.
The current system means that the hardcore players who level up quickly and grind for days will gobble up every single freehold, no ifs or buts about it. That's not the crowd that does processing as one of their main pastimes, in general, nor run taverns or other services. The player crowds who tend to do that are much more casual and laid back usually.
There is a complete dichotomy - and disconnect really - between the player types that are able to acquire the freeholds, and the player types who would benefit the entire game the most by having them.
And please don't start on the "you can do up to journeyman in the nodes" BS. Absolutely no player who likes to do a certain thing in the game is going to be satisfied with that, including you dear reader. That's like telling the raiding crowd they can't access higher than lvl 30 bosses until they own a freehold. Or the PvP crowd that they can't attack nodes or castles until they own a freehold, but they are free to attack caravans and join arenas.
People will leave over this. The constant focus on excluding players from content is bad for the game. The freeholds gating all (important) processing and all the businesses is a vital piece of content being withheld from the majority of players. If you kill the casual crowd, the game won't hold up. We absolutely need them to make the lumber, farm the tomatoes and run the taverns and just be a part of this game in general.
I think one of the solutions would be to allow multiple tiers of freeholds, as has been suggested elsewhere, and add the option for players to get a small place with a little farm or whatever they want and limit them in size, but letting them hit grandmaster still. These can be placed in close proximity, like villages of up to 10 houses or so on a parcel.
Another would be to let players rent stations and farmland on existing freeholds. Or just have them by the nodes: Some small plots outside the node along the walls. Not for housing, just a shed and some land to place some stuff on and grow some corn.
Agree 100%.
Me for instace, i don't want to plant corn or own a tavern i want to fight, but i will most certainly buy a freehold just to sell later.
A pattern that i'm starting to see with this game is that EVERY high end thing is designed for guild leaders.
Flying mounts, freeholds, being mayor etc.
I was just rewatching some of our first interview with Steven (5 years ago!) and I specifically asked if as a solo player I would be able to have a farm and the answer was yes. It would be hard work and it would be easier with friends but yes as a solo player I could do that.
I have also shown you the clip from one year ago saying if a player goes through monumental tasks of getting a freehold, they will get a freehold. (I will point out that Maggie begins that question by asking if it would be a prestige symbol owned by a fraction of players and the answer was no, any player that did the work would get the freehold).
I have always wanted to and continue to want to put in all that tremendous effort and time. I want to earn my freehold. I don't want to be given it. And up until Friday I had been told multiple times if I tried hard enough and did the pre-requisites, that I would earn it.
That is where the frustration comes from. Am I going to give up? No, but this is definitely a difficult change to accept as I have always, since 2016, just wanted a farm in Verra. That has been the focus of all of my interview time with Steven because that is what I have always wanted to do with my time.
At this point I don't think there is much more I can say on the matter. I will accept that for now at least I have to change my game plan and I will do so. We will see what comes from alpha 2.
Some really good points here. I like the village idea. +1
@Fantmx Thats fair, I respect that and understand the frustration.
Not just for guild leaders, but for guilds... groups of players, and that is not a "pattern" its not hidden, that is what I always expected of a game inspired by EVE Online, Archeage, Lineage 2.... guild-focused or group-focused content... Steven was a big guild leader, multiple devs working at intrepid came from his guild, this is a public and known fact and this is the game we, that enjoy Social MMOs want to play.
What doesn't make sense is expecting Steven and intrepid, with all that background, making a solo-player friendly game and allowing for the best endgame housing to be freely available for everyone.
That's just not Ashes of Creation, that's not an MMORPG, sorry.
I'm gonna be honest with you, for the past 3 years I've been telling my community that processing would PROBABLY be something that required mass investment to level, and not something you could easily do as a solo - it was obvious for me that this was the intention, of course, you could slowly, very slowly level it up alone but how would you get the raw resources? buying it for gold?
its obviously an artisan skill tree made to be fed by multiple players working together, so it makes perfect sense that you Need a group or guild to acquire a freehold, I honestly don't see how did people assumed they would be able to play solo and get to max rank in a profession.
Intrepid always said that the highest tiers would require a tremendous amount of effort and time, and a "master" in their profession would be so rare that he would be known in his region - so how can you hear that and think "oh I can surely do it solo in my own little tavern"
I hear that and I immediately think "ok so we will have very few masters in their profession because even with 300 people feeding him mats it will still be hard" which implies there is zero chances of a solo player achieving that alone because if they could..... it would be extremely easy for guilds.
But owning a tavern is not an enterprise. It's just someone who says "I'm gonna open one". Like every single RPG game ever has one owner who gave up adventuring life and opened up a tavern!
The first 2k players to get one are all sorted. The remaining 3k players, however, essentially need to wait for players to leave the game - or more likely for entire guilds to leave the game.
What if all 25k or so players on the server want a freehold?
Claiming this is a system where all players can get a freehold is either disingenuous, or an outright lie.
For Steven's part, I'm happy to put it down to the games design changed, because the game is still in development.
For you to attempt to justify it though, disingenuous or dishonest - your call.
At a minimum, Intrepid should be offering refunds of freehold cosmetic skins.
I don't think Steven ever said that all who want a freehold will be able to have them all at the same time.