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Why should I fight for my node?

BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
Considering numbers given, freeholds or housing will be limited to select few. Being that the case, what is the motivation to fight for my node?
If having my node destroyed gives the small chance to get a Freehold or static housing, why would I fight for my node? The potential gains seem to be so much higher than having some mats destroyed that I store in my instanced housing.

Am I missing something here? Please correct me if I'm mistaken about something.
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Comments

  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There is no point in even joining a node. You can use the in node services without citizenship. Also use the in node banks without citizenship, use the auction house in an economic node without citizenship and do quests without citizenship. Thus, what is the point in citizenship except to pay taxes?
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  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    There is no point in even joining a node. You can use the in node services without citizenship. Also use the in node banks without citizenship, use the auction house in an economic node without citizenship and do quests without citizenship. Thus, what is the point in citizenship except to pay taxes?

    I wasn't aware of that! So there's no reason to actually join a node if that's the case. Because if I can access evrything without taxes, I see.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Well, now its in the open things might change. But, you can't be cut off from the entire game just because you haven't decided on a node yet. Some people will take 10 days to decide, others will take 10 years to decide. So long as you have a guild to run dungeons and stuff with you can get away without a node for some time. The only issue you might face is increased hostility when gathering and stuff but its a pvx game and you shouldn't be daunted by pvp. You can just gather with your guild, do caravans with your guild and just generally pay homage to your guild. You could also solo but at that point you'd be severely limited in anything and it might not be worth the subscription fee.
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  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    It'll be interesting to see just how the citizenship benefits develop, to see whether or not it is indeed worth it.

    Current benefits, as per the wiki:
    "Citizenship benefits
    Citizenship grants a number of benefits.[3]

    Access to limited functions and service buildings within the node.[12]
    Access to merchants that offer specific types of enhancement stones or stat migrations.[12]
    Access to upper-tier crafting benches.[12]
    Access to a weekly allotment of core material that can only be accessed from the node's reliquary.[12]
    Access to buffs from certain events.[12]
    Access to titles.[12][3]
    Access to organizations and religions.[12]
    Participation in the node’s government (voting or running for office).[3]
    Other stated benefits include: Reputation, Honor, Loyalty, Merit.[3]


    Whether or not these will be worth the taxes and potentially the lack of a freehold, is still to be seen.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Well, now its in the open things might change. But, you can't be cut off from the entire game just because you haven't decided on a node yet. Some people will take 10 days to decide, others will take 10 years to decide. So long as you have a guild to run dungeons and stuff with you can get away without a node for some time. The only issue you might face is increased hostility when gathering and stuff but its a pvx game and you shouldn't be daunted by pvp. You can just gather with your guild, do caravans with your guild and just generally pay homage to your guild. You could also solo but at that point you'd be severely limited in anything and it might not be worth the subscription fee.

    I had a different perception when thinking about the game. I imagined it as "fighting to protect my land and my fellow citizens". But, let's be honest, it ain't real life. If I have no incentive to fight for a node, I won't be a citizen. So I guess many guilds will be just "pirates" or something
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    It'll be interesting to see just how the citizenship benefits develop, to see whether or not it is indeed worth it.

    Current benefits, as per the wiki:
    "Citizenship benefits
    Citizenship grants a number of benefits.[3]

    Access to limited functions and service buildings within the node.[12]
    Access to merchants that offer specific types of enhancement stones or stat migrations.[12]
    Access to upper-tier crafting benches.[12]
    Access to a weekly allotment of core material that can only be accessed from the node's reliquary.[12]
    Access to buffs from certain events.[12]
    Access to titles.[12][3]
    Access to organizations and religions.[12]
    Participation in the node’s government (voting or running for office).[3]
    Other stated benefits include: Reputation, Honor, Loyalty, Merit.[3]


    Whether or not these will be worth the taxes and potentially the lack of a freehold, is still to be seen.

    That's a lot of things. Won't you be getting those same or similar things elsewhere though? Even if it's the only node where you can get them, won't the chance of having a freehold or static housing be much larger and important?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Reputation, honour, loyalty and merit? Doesn't seem worthwhile. Does that mean you won't have reputation, honour, loyalty and merit without a node affiliation?

    I think the rest can be used by a short term citizen. You only need a crafter to repair your gear who is a citizen. Most crafters will be grateful for the gold. There is no P2W or P4C so I wouldn't state any of those benefits will be game breaking without. Extra resources would be nice but I'm a gatherer anyway. Gear is crafted so won't need stat migrations. Not a crafter so won't need the crafting access.

    The only issue i see is what is meant by limited functions and service buildings...though you can still use the auction house in an economic node and the bank system to my knowledge.
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  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    It's the "Access to organizations and religions.[12]" that's potentially the deal-winner for me. Depending on how they're implemented, of course. As I said, it'll be interesting to see what comes of it all, and to see if community feedback can further influence the Freehold system. They've been happily open to feedback before, so don't get to hung up on how it is now, there's still time.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If you do have a freehold it is pretty clear you wouldn't want to have to pay thousands and thousands of gold every month in order to get a new one, so you would fight for your node.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    What if Intrepid saw the feedback of "we can't we fight against our own node as citizens, as a form of revolt" and this is the result? The rich will be the enemy, so every damn node will be in a constant state of either being sieged or on cd between sieges.

    This is just yet another move to make Ashes have more pvp! I've cracked the case!
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Fantmx wrote: »
    If you do have a freehold it is pretty clear you wouldn't want to have to pay thousands and thousands of gold every month in order to get a new one, so you would fight for your node.

    Its the unknowns that are the killer. I won't know how effective a node defence is until its tested. By that time it could be too late. I'm more for helping my guild/alliance get a castle. Even more prestigious than a freehold and the only method to tax the local nodes. I think it comes down to the entertainment factor. I realise you can get augments from organisations and religions but I'm not sure whether these augments would be worthwhile or not. Further investigation is required. I don't have a predetermined game plan anymore except to build wealth in the open world with paying as little tax as possible.
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  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    It's the "Access to organizations and religions.[12]" that's potentially the deal-winner for me. Depending on how they're implemented, of course. As I said, it'll be interesting to see what comes of it all, and to see if community feedback can further influence the Freehold system. They've been happily open to feedback before, so don't get to hung up on how it is now, there's still time.

    Oh, I don't mind the changes, I just wasn't imagining things like that. Being more casual player I wonder what are my incentives to be a citizen. If all I do is just adventure, and invasions, it seems guild will be the most important choice, and not node like I was thinking it would be.
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    Fantmx wrote: »
    If you do have a freehold it is pretty clear you wouldn't want to have to pay thousands and thousands of gold every month in order to get a new one, so you would fight for your node.

    Well yeah, but that would be the minority. Most players won't have a freehold. Why would the fight then? Like I was discussing before with Neurat, is there even a point in being a citizen? I was thinking there would be frictions between Guild vs Node, but it seems that would only apply to hardcore players.
    If that's the case, and casual players won't even bother being citizen, won't nodes just be "all the same guild" potentially?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    If you do have a freehold it is pretty clear you wouldn't want to have to pay thousands and thousands of gold every month in order to get a new one, so you would fight for your node.

    Well yeah, but that would be the minority. Most players won't have a freehold. Why would the fight then? Like I was discussing before with Neurat, is there even a point in being a citizen? I was thinking there would be frictions between Guild vs Node, but it seems that would only apply to hardcore players.
    If that's the case, and casual players won't even bother being citizen, won't nodes just be "all the same guild" potentially?

    It used to be said that a guild can't take over a node but with the Freehold change an alliance could own all of the freeholds if they really wanted to.
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  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Node Organizations include such things as
    - Bounty Hunters' Guild
    - Thieves' Guild
    - Crafters' Guild
    - Perhaps other guilds like husbandry, jewelry crafting, pet training, musicians, tavern keepers, cooks, beer distillers and other unknowns

    Guild halls in nodes, with currently unknown (but probably juicy) benefits
    Node caravans, caravan building for larger, faster and substantially more profitable caravans
    Alliances and other diplomatic relations with other nodes
    The ability to declare players as KoS enemies of the node
    ...and others


    The benefits of node types
    Military, probably weapons, armor, buffs, titles
    Scientific, fast travel to nodes, potential buffs and enhancements, titles
    Religious, weapon and armor enhancements depending on the religions present in the city, religious advancements including buffs and titles and private dungeons
    Merchant, instant access to vassal node markets and far away markets, other yet unknown paths to riches

    I'll make a prediction that players who are active in their nodes will have distinct advantages over those who aren't
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    tautau wrote: »
    I'll make a prediction that players who are active in their nodes will have distinct advantages over those who aren't

    I doubt this assessment is accurate. If all nodes could reach Metro status you could be right but most of the nodes won't be metro, thus, the overall benefit of a metro will be convenience and not combat power per say. Otherwise, no one could overthrow the metros.
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  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    tautau wrote: »
    Node Organizations include such things as
    - Bounty Hunters' Guild
    - Thieves' Guild
    - Crafters' Guild
    - Perhaps other guilds like husbandry, jewelry crafting, pet training, musicians, tavern keepers, cooks, beer distillers and other unknowns

    Guild halls in nodes, with currently unknown (but probably juicy) benefits
    Node caravans, caravan building for larger, faster and substantially more profitable caravans
    Alliances and other diplomatic relations with other nodes
    The ability to declare players as KoS enemies of the node
    ...and others


    The benefits of node types
    Military, probably weapons, armor, buffs, titles
    Scientific, fast travel to nodes, potential buffs and enhancements, titles
    Religious, weapon and armor enhancements depending on the religions present in the city, religious advancements including buffs and titles and private dungeons
    Merchant, instant access to vassal node markets and far away markets, other yet unknown paths to riches

    I'll make a prediction that players who are active in their nodes will have distinct advantages over those who aren't

    Yes, those are benefits. You can benefit from the node, but why should you protect such node? These are entirely different points. I could make use of all those benefits but when the day comes, I won't protect the node, because even if I lose those benefits, the chances of the node being destroyed and getting something much more important back is huge.
    It's that tipping point where you change from a simple commoner to a land owner.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Various node types will also have various benefits available only to it's citizens.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes#Citizenship_benefits

    If you have an economic metro and lie the auction house being there would you seek to protect it?
    The science metro with it's limited teleport and air ship?
    What if some of these things require you to be a citizen to use or pay a toll to get on the air ship?
    To many doomsayers trying to find a less then 1% whataboutthis...
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Not worth the trouble. Even if I was a citizen of one type of node i would lose out on the benefits of the other types of nodes. Therefore, you can safely rebuff all types of node benefits because you would only have 1 set out of 5 to begin with. The auction house would be available to all and you get more money for selling certificates outside of your local node. Thus, I feel the profit can be made regardless. Sure, you might not match a Freehold income but if you can't get a freehold you won't match the freehold income anyway.

    There's always the caveat that eventually you can afford a freehold and will then become a citizen.
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  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    If you do have a freehold it is pretty clear you wouldn't want to have to pay thousands and thousands of gold every month in order to get a new one, so you would fight for your node.

    Well yeah, but that would be the minority. Most players won't have a freehold. Why would the fight then? Like I was discussing before with Neurat, is there even a point in being a citizen? I was thinking there would be frictions between Guild vs Node, but it seems that would only apply to hardcore players.
    If that's the case, and casual players won't even bother being citizen, won't nodes just be "all the same guild" potentially?

    A good point
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  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    To many doomsayers trying to find a less then 1% whataboutthis...
    First, I never said something like that. If you're gonna have a conversation in this thread at least be open about it, if not please leave.
    Various node types will also have various benefits available only to it's citizens.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes#Citizenship_benefits

    If you have an economic metro and lie the auction house being there would you seek to protect it?
    The science metro with it's limited teleport and air ship?
    What if some of these things require you to be a citizen to use or pay a toll to get on the air ship?

    I made this point. I can see all these benefits. Are you telling me no one will want to own a static house or freehold? In real life you have many examples where people sought the destruction of their own empire to benefit from it.
    What is the benefit if I protect the node? None. Just to keep the status quo. If I am some random adventurer, or someone who benefits from the node, are those benefits large enough to justifiy defending my node? That is the question I am asking.

  • BlackBrony wrote: »
    Considering numbers given, freeholds or housing will be limited to select few. Being that the case, what is the motivation to fight for my node?
    If having my node destroyed gives the small chance to get a Freehold or static housing, why would I fight for my node? The potential gains seem to be so much higher than having some mats destroyed that I store in my instanced housing.

    Am I missing something here? Please correct me if I'm mistaken about something.

    I think the answer is that you shouldn't join a node if you can't get a housing or freehold in it. I think that's what they're going for. Players start populating a node looking for housing and freeholds until it either fills up or getting them becomes unfeasible, and the remaining players move on to greener pastures elsewhere.

    If they didn't do this, everyone would just migrate to a central commercial node and becomes citizens there. You must have noticed that in other MMOs with multiple major towns or "capital cities" that everyone sets their home to the city that is in the most convenient location and/or has the highest population and everywhere else is a ghost town.

    It also would create an interesting situation for the governors of the nodes, because they'll only be able to attract as many citizens as they have housing and freeholds available. So they'll have to do some balance work with commercial buildings, utility buildings and housing.

    So, the answer is that you fight for your node because that's where your home and all your stuff is.
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Considering numbers given, freeholds or housing will be limited to select few. Being that the case, what is the motivation to fight for my node?
    If having my node destroyed gives the small chance to get a Freehold or static housing, why would I fight for my node? The potential gains seem to be so much higher than having some mats destroyed that I store in my instanced housing.

    Am I missing something here? Please correct me if I'm mistaken about something.

    I think the answer is that you shouldn't join a node if you can't get a housing or freehold in it. I think that's what they're going for. Players start populating a node looking for housing and freeholds until it either fills up or getting them becomes unfeasible, and the remaining players move on to greener pastures elsewhere.

    Such an excellent point! So people will be "forced" to move elsewhere into the world in hopes of getting a static house or a freehold. I already discard freeholds because you can only get them at level 50, so for casuals that possibility is gone completely.
    But that idea makes sense. It might give some chances to other players, depending how large the hardcore base is.
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    pgt1027 wrote: »
    So, the answer is that you fight for your node because that's where your home and all your stuff is.

    What stuff are you referring to? There are central banks in each node. I would store armour for the various local dungeons in the local banks. No point carting stuff across the entire map. The rest of the 'stuff' isn't really too serious, perhaps furniture for a home I don't own or perhaps resources which will be sold immediately or stored in local banks for repairs later on. I don't see the rest of the 'stuff' you refer to.
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Apartments will still be a thing. Housing will potentially bring several benefits of its own and changing houses every time your node gets destroyed would be very costly for casual players.

    In other words - it's convenience. You want your game to be as easy-going as possible? Defend your node.
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Apartments will still be a thing. Housing will potentially bring several benefits of its own and changing houses every time your node gets destroyed would be very costly for casual players.

    In other words - it's convenience. You want your game to be as easy-going as possible? Defend your node.

    Let me rephrase my question. Would you be willing to lose 1000 dollars if that means you might get 1 million? I see "defending my node" as that. If I only have a instanced house, what am I really losing? Is this convenience you talk about THAT important compared to the chance of belonging to that 15% of players who own a static house or freehold?
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NiKr wrote: »
    In other words - it's convenience. You want your game to be as easy-going as possible? Defend your node.

    Its not too convenient though. You could be on the opposite continent and have to cart your day's haul all the way back to your house. Or you could just use the local banks, find an auction house or sell the stuff in the local merchant shops. In a PvX game, travel should only be undertaken when travel is unavoidable. If I owned a house, I'd have to travel one way and then travel back again lol.
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  • tautautautau Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    @Neurath When you say 'I won't join a node because I only get the benefits of one type of node rather than all five types of nodes' slightly off point?

    Wouldn't it be better to say 'If I join a node I get the benefit of one type of node and if I don't join a node I get the benefit of zero types of node?'
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yes, you could state that fact Tautau but we begin without citizenship. Thus, Citizenship isn't really required. It only becomes good in later stages of development. But, my forces could destroy said node in a siege rather than take the knee and defend the node. Thus, the benefits of the siege would outweigh the menial benefits of the citizenship. I expect the next node updates could invalid my current stance, however, I just don't see the benefits to be worth the gold sinks, time sinks and effort required to make a house a home. I'm all for Guild Wars, but, I don't particularly want to fight the wars of others such as Node Wars because I'll never become a Mayor. Easier to take your lot in life when you have full control over engagements and disengagements :)
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  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    Let me rephrase my question. Would you be willing to lose 1000 dollars if that means you might get 1 million? I see "defending my node" as that. If I only have a instanced house, what am I really losing? Is this convenience you talk about THAT important compared to the chance of belonging to that 15% of players who own a static house or freehold?
    If you have the money for it and you know FOR SURE that you have more than any given guild within a reasonable radius of the node - yeah, it'd be better to try and buy it after the node gets destroyed. But if you have access to that kind of money - why da hell are you not on a freehold already?
    Neurath wrote: »
    Its not too convenient though. You could be on the opposite continent and have to cart your day's haul all the way back to your house. Or you could just use the local banks, find an auction house or sell the stuff in the local merchant shops. In a PvX game, travel should only be undertaken when travel is unavoidable. If I owned a house, I'd have to travel one way and then travel back again lol.
    This will depend on the overall availability of instanced housing across all nodes and on your own preferences for content.

    If Intrepid decide to give everyone at least an instanced home, that would mean that all nodes will have ~900 apartments on average (or at least median). So unless you're trying to live in the most overpopulated node on the server - I doubt you'll have to walk more than 20 minutes from your farming spot to your home.
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