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AoC isn't as Niche as everyone thinks

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Comments

  • acki02acki02 Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    "Participation Trophy" is a design philosophy difference. It is what you seem to be leaning heavily towards and assuming others want too. It's what I disagree with. It's the idea that if I spend my time playing a game that I should have the opportunity to have something or in other words a participation award. So that might not be first prize but I am always going to get rewards.
    Again... this is not really a thing used in game design AFAIK.
    It is a pejorative used by Hardcore Challenge gamers.
    So, yes, devs who are Hardcore Challenge gamers might incorporate that bias into their game design.

    Well, why not? As someone who lurks in game design spaces, this seems like not only a valid thing to use, but also not an uncommon thing in use already.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I asked some of my pals who are currently working as game designers.
    They said it's very uncommon to hear that.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    I can't say I've heard many game developers talk about participation trophies either.
  • FiddlezFiddlez Member
    edited July 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    I can't say I've heard many game developers talk about participation trophies either.

    Steven Shariff has mentioned no participation trophies multiple times. Infact it's in direct reference to the Freehold Update video and how they work and why not everyone will get one. Its just a philosophy. I would imagine most game devs don't concern themselves with it since this would be a pretty high level design choice.

    You will also find that most people don't innovate. They have families, hobbies and you know, life. So asking them to be philosophical on the a core pillar of game design seems like a bit much.

    Alot of games these days are designed around Battle Passes, seasonal and F2P monetization options like Online Stores. Why pay money for something if you aren't guaranteed something for it? It's psychology and dopamine.

    Participation award in this case is a philosophical difference in how you want the game to be developed. With a focus on achievements that you might not be able to get just because you play. Some thing's will be unattainable for some people. The philosophy would be that you want to create an atmosphere or immersive experience more so then just rewarding every player. I don't consider this hardcore at all and has no bearing on anything related to "hardcore".
  • FantmxFantmx Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think it matters if we are referring to a very large community or a smaller community. If we are talking success the entire gaming community then I think it is fair to include those that largely play shooters or mobas or BRs, etc. If we are speaking about the mmorpg community then that is where our mindset should be.

    If we are just speaking about the mmorpg community I think niche is an appropriate term.

    If we are including everyone who plays in any type of PvP game and Ashes ends up being almost entirely meaningful on a pvp side only then there is more of a chance it will be less niche.

    At least in my head it matters, maybe not in others.
    KingDDD wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    The thing about Crowfall is they sold 70k+ copies of the game. While some of that's inflated by Kickstarter and people buying multiple copies, it still illustrates how this type of game can achieve relatively high sales numbers even with abysmal marketing.

    Just to clarify, Crowfall’s failure wasn’t a marketing problem. It failed from the bottom up (just being a poor game with some terrible gameplay decisions) and from the top down (bad financial management, poor leadership, and short term thinking).

    I can't tell you the number of people who posted on reddit, fansites, discord, etc who all said they were unaware the game "launched". Was Crowfall a game that was generally average to mediocre in every way possible, yes. But if people aren't playing they aren't paying.

    This is an interesting observation and one I have made as well. I call it The Crowfall Conundrum. And I think Intrepid is trying to avoid it. Crowfall had no fanfare for it's launch because he had been up and playable for years prior to reaching beta or launch. The excitement had already been exhausted and anyone who was interested in playing had already tried it out.

    The Crowfall Conundrum is one of the single best arguments against leaving a testing server up 24/7.
    q1nu38cjgq3j.png
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I can't say I've heard many game developers talk about participation trophies either.

    Steven Shariff has mentioned no participation trophies multiple times.
    Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

    He has money, and so started up a game development company.

    You take him and put him in a game developer jam, see how he does. Now take any of his game developer staff members and see how they do.

    Having a business that does a thing does not make you a person that does that thing.
  • FiddlezFiddlez Member
    edited July 2023
    Dygz wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.
    At this point, I really don't care what you, specifically, think or what your impressions are. You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.
    That is how absurd I find your comment about creating a true MMORPG to be.

    Go to 13:20 Episode 100 of Ashenforge with Steven Shariff and Steven does an excellent job of explaining this notion. You should have payed attention more of the role of an RPG.
  • acki02acki02 Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    I asked some of my pals who are currently working as game designers.
    They said it's very uncommon to hear that.

    "Participation trophies" are more of a philosophy than a "thing" that's widely talked about I think.

    Also, out of curiosity, would you mind if I were to ask what titles/genres have your acquaintances worked on?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.
    At this point, I really don't care what you, specifically, think or what your impressions are. You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.
    That is how absurd I find your comment about creating a true MMORPG to be.

    Go to 13:20 Episode 100 of Ashenforge with Steven Shariff and Steven does an excellent job of explaining this notion. You should have payed attention more of the role of an RPG.
    Really, I need to put you on ignore.
    You add nothing that I didn't already know before you jumped into the topic. You add nothing to counter what I've said.
    I said what I said. And you can read that at the very top of this page. You should have paid attention to THAT.
    Have some seats.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    The impression I get is you don't take anyone seriously. You are free to disagree but once someone tries to diminish anyone's else's opinion, in my experience there's only one reason someone does it and it's never good.
    At this point, I really don't care what you, specifically, think or what your impressions are. You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.
    That is how absurd I find your comment about creating a true MMORPG to be.

    Go to 13:20 Episode 100 of Ashenforge with Steven Shariff and Steven does an excellent job of explaining this notion. You should have payed attention more of the role of an RPG.
    Really, I need to put you on ignore.
    You add nothing that I didn't already know before you jumped into the topic. You add nothing to counter what I've said.
    I said what I said. And you can read that at the very top of this page. You should have paid attention to THAT.
    Have some seats.

    This is literally my topic/forum post. Also if you want to hear Steven speak about participation trophy same episode 17:54.

    Just take a chill pill and stop being so emotionally invested in other people's viewpoint. Find a way to just disagree with out trying to diminish the person. Right now the better points I make just seem to make you even more upset.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    I don't wan't to hear Steven speak about participation trophies.
    That is my entire point.
    The points you try to make are frustratingly absurd.
  • Well I just think you have massive tunnel vision and refuse to acknowledge any points that you initially didn't make.

    You are trying to make points on what you haven't even experienced. You haven't even been to a birthday party with cake and you are telling everyone's they are forcing it down people's throats. Maybe go to a party before you start telling everyone what it's going to be like.
  • KingDDDKingDDD Member, Alpha Two
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Mag7spy wrote: »
    lp
    KingDDD wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric.

    In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development.

    If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop.

    This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing.

    I'd say two years to make the amount of content they did is pretty impressive considering they had to code/make art for all the tools needed for designers to make a more indepth pve experience. Bugs like the window drag glitch were never found because QA/coders/designers were in perpetual crunch making the pve content. That has nothing to do with their competence but has everything to do with suits and release dates.

    Likewise to you. Some of the folks on these forums make me laugh.

    yo they had no content in that game at launch. I was fighting the same mobs from the tutorial area as end game.

    The only interesting thing about that game was pvp and politics, everything else was dead boring and extremely basic.

    Areas, mobs, quest, everything is just copy pasted do to rushing it out.

    According to the art director for EQN it took their art team roughly 8 weeks (if the same person did everything) to take a basic critter creature (in the example given it was a bunny) from concept art to basic sculpture, to rigging to texture work to in game with 4 or so animations. This gets more and more complicated when you are adding weapon swings, unique abilities, and the like.

    Is NW or Ashes the same game as EQN, no. But assets frankly take a lot of time to make.

    I'm a artist i know how work goes lmao. Doesnt change the fact there was no content and the same few mobs you could count on one or two hands were copy pasted, including those animations you are talking about on different races of mobs on top of it.

    So as an artist does that sound accurate? Did you find the number of models and animations in NW roughly applicable to what you'd expect of 2 years of development from a team of 20 or so?

    I'm guessing you mean 2 years before release of the game?

    Yes around two years previous to the launch in 2021, they decided to switch focus from an open pvp game to a standard pve mmo.

    issue 1.

    I played it like a year before release and you could get towards end game in the beta (i did not so i dont know how much content they allowed players to do). They changed some stuff but not really from a art perspective everything was the game, the issues were the same it was more the combat and such they tweaked. Overall if there were some things missing I didn't notice or see them in a big deal, It didn't feel liek they were adding content in the years time more so adjusting the gameplay

    issue 2

    The most important part (i was not apart of) would be the actual alpha before the 2 year mark as far as what content was there, how much, etc. Without that information it is hard to judge how much work they had already and how much content they were making.


    Overall...

    I can't really judge what they did in this time frame on how much content they were making, the feeling I had was not much was made during this time. So I can't fully just judge on content production like that, personally i feel their issues were elsewhere and that was their focus in making the game.

    Their content was mostly all made already, and they took what they made to try to move it into a mmorpg, Which resulted in a lot of copy and pasted content, locations, dungeons, mobs, rigs, animations, everything. Their focus wasn't on creating more content, but taking the content they had and making it into more of a casual mmorpg. Some of such content they also did not bring over because they did not have the time to do so (two handed sword as an example). And some stuff had to stay on the back burner until they could implement it in a mmorpg way over a survival game way.

    Long story short content creation wasn't the purpose, it was scaling what they had to make work as a mmorpg. That is what took the bulk of the time and why everything felt rushed and bad game design wise, not having enough time to get it to the level where it needed to be. As well as working off their more survival game and having to force that into the mold of a mmorpg do to time constraints and direction change. Which left a lot of whole and issues with design as well as things not being properly tested.

    If i knew the state of this game during the true alpha (not the mmorpg one) I could give a better answer.

    The impression I get from the folks I've talked to that played the open pvp alpha is that 80% or so of the pve content was not in the game at that time.
    Fantmx wrote: »
    I think it matters if we are referring to a very large community or a smaller community. If we are talking success the entire gaming community then I think it is fair to include those that largely play shooters or mobas or BRs, etc. If we are speaking about the mmorpg community then that is where our mindset should be.

    If we are just speaking about the mmorpg community I think niche is an appropriate term.

    If we are including everyone who plays in any type of PvP game and Ashes ends up being almost entirely meaningful on a pvp side only then there is more of a chance it will be less niche.

    At least in my head it matters, maybe not in others.
    KingDDD wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    The thing about Crowfall is they sold 70k+ copies of the game. While some of that's inflated by Kickstarter and people buying multiple copies, it still illustrates how this type of game can achieve relatively high sales numbers even with abysmal marketing.

    Just to clarify, Crowfall’s failure wasn’t a marketing problem. It failed from the bottom up (just being a poor game with some terrible gameplay decisions) and from the top down (bad financial management, poor leadership, and short term thinking).

    I can't tell you the number of people who posted on reddit, fansites, discord, etc who all said they were unaware the game "launched". Was Crowfall a game that was generally average to mediocre in every way possible, yes. But if people aren't playing they aren't paying.

    This is an interesting observation and one I have made as well. I call it The Crowfall Conundrum. And I think Intrepid is trying to avoid it. Crowfall had no fanfare for it's launch because he had been up and playable for years prior to reaching beta or launch. The excitement had already been exhausted and anyone who was interested in playing had already tried it out.

    The Crowfall Conundrum is one of the single best arguments against leaving a testing server up 24/7.

    I couldnt agree with this sentiment more. Bugs were fixed (or not) multiple times across the various code bases making for a stupidly inefficient iteration process. Combine that with player burnout and you have a terrible start to your game. If theres anything to learn from Crowfall, its that treating a game in development as a live service is a recipe for shutting down early.

    I believe GW2 did beta weekends every few months in the year or two before its launch, I would strongly urge Interpid to do something similar. While it's not what I personally want, the long-term health of the game is significantly more important than my feelings.
  • Fantmx wrote: »
    I think it matters if we are referring to a very large community or a smaller community. If we are talking success the entire gaming community then I think it is fair to include those that largely play shooters or mobas or BRs, etc. If we are speaking about the mmorpg community then that is where our mindset should be.

    If we are just speaking about the mmorpg community I think niche is an appropriate term.

    If we are including everyone who plays in any type of PvP game and Ashes ends up being almost entirely meaningful on a pvp side only then there is more of a chance it will be less niche.

    At least in my head it matters, maybe not in others.
    KingDDD wrote: »
    CROW3 wrote: »
    KingDDD wrote: »
    The thing about Crowfall is they sold 70k+ copies of the game. While some of that's inflated by Kickstarter and people buying multiple copies, it still illustrates how this type of game can achieve relatively high sales numbers even with abysmal marketing.

    Just to clarify, Crowfall’s failure wasn’t a marketing problem. It failed from the bottom up (just being a poor game with some terrible gameplay decisions) and from the top down (bad financial management, poor leadership, and short term thinking).

    I can't tell you the number of people who posted on reddit, fansites, discord, etc who all said they were unaware the game "launched". Was Crowfall a game that was generally average to mediocre in every way possible, yes. But if people aren't playing they aren't paying.

    This is an interesting observation and one I have made as well. I call it The Crowfall Conundrum. And I think Intrepid is trying to avoid it. Crowfall had no fanfare for it's launch because he had been up and playable for years prior to reaching beta or launch. The excitement had already been exhausted and anyone who was interested in playing had already tried it out.

    The Crowfall Conundrum is one of the single best arguments against leaving a testing server up 24/7.

    My impression is that the perception is it's a Hardcore PVP game niche, only for those that like PVP as a niche part of the larger MMORPG community. Maybe closer to a larger scale Crowfall community or potential.

    I always felt that Crowfall's launch was more or a "we ran out of money" launch. I think they were nowhere close to what they envisioned.
  • Azherae wrote: »
    Also as a random aside entirely to anyone still following what I say in these threads, check out the translation of the MMORPG 'novel' called "Legendary Moonlight Sculptor". Of the adaptations available, I suggest the actual 'novel' if you enjoy reading (if you didn't, you probably weren't tracking all my essay-posts anyway). The manwha is a rougher adaptation and the game... you won't get most of the game's references or jokes without the 'novel'.

    Sounds like something I should read then. With regards to fictional games, have you read The King's Avatar? Their game is also interesting in some ways :)

  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

    He has 6 years of experience as a creative director and 2 years experience as a lead game designer, plus all the different hats at Intrepid

    It's like opening a bakery shop, making bread for 6 years and a random customer saying you ain't a baker because you don't have previous experience :|
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  • Noaani wrote: »
    Fiddlez wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    I can't say I've heard many game developers talk about participation trophies either.

    Steven Shariff has mentioned no participation trophies multiple times.
    Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

    He has money, and so started up a game development company.

    You take him and put him in a game developer jam, see how he does. Now take any of his game developer staff members and see how they do.

    Having a business that does a thing does not make you a person that does that thing.

    I have yet to meet a manager of a company that doesn't understand his company. Let's say it's a roofing company. He might not be great or the best roof installer as opposed to someone who does it everyday but it doesn't mean he has little to no understanding of it. His understanding would be a much higher level or bird's eye view.

    So how to nail and glue he might be hazy on but the the cost of the nails and glue, quality of them and where to get them would be the managers.

    Point being in this case that while he wouldn't be labeled as a game developer. He is the creative director and CEO of Intrepid. So it's a strange argument to make that we would listen to a "Game developer"regarding the direction of a game over the CEO and Creative Director.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

    He has 6 years of experience as a creative director and 2 years experience as a lead game designer, plus all the different hats at Intrepid

    It's like opening a bakery shop, making bread for 6 years and a random customer saying you ain't a baker because you don't have previous experience :|
    Yeah, that doesn't really mean much other than he has tons of money and is an exceptional project manager.
    He excels at running a team and fundraising for his projects.
    He's got enough game dev friends to be able to have meaningful discussions about how to create the kind of MMORPG he loves to play. All of those SOE devs can teach him the details of the stuff he wants to know.
    But, he's not an experienced, objective game designer. And he's not an experienced game dev with a successfully released game.

    It's like a muffin shop where he primarily works on creating the ultimate blueberry muffins recipe based on his mom's blueberry muffin recipe. But, he still hasn't actually shipped any of the muffins yet. We know in theory the blueberry muffins should taste out of this world, but that doesn't mean he knows how to satisfy the muffin fans who don't particularly like blueberries (and what he really wants to do is place some blueberries in every type of muffin because, to him, that is the secret ingredient that muffin lovers truly crave. His muffins are not made for everyone. If you don't like blueberries, you might not like muffins from his muffin shop.)
  • Ayeveegaming1Ayeveegaming1 Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Better get a helmet, don't want a chunk of sky to hit you in the head! 79qhvb7f95fv.png
    vmw4o7x2etm1.png
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    dygz u love cake and similar stuff dont u?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I like cake - sometimes.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

    He has 6 years of experience as a creative director and 2 years experience as a lead game designer, plus all the different hats at Intrepid

    It's like opening a bakery shop, making bread for 6 years and a random customer saying you ain't a baker because you don't have previous experience :|
    Yeah, that doesn't really mean much other than he has tons of money and is an exceptional project manager.
    He excels at running a team and fundraising for his projects.
    He's got enough game dev friends to be able to have meaningful discussions about how to create the kind of MMORPG he loves to play. All of those SOE devs can teach him the details of the stuff he wants to know.
    But, he's not an experienced, objective game designer. And he's not an experienced game dev with a successfully released game.

    It's like a muffin shop where he primarily works on creating the ultimate blueberry muffins recipe based on his mom's blueberry muffin recipe. But, he still hasn't actually shipped any of the muffins yet. We know in theory the blueberry muffins should taste out of this world, but that doesn't mean he knows how to satisfy the muffin fans who don't particularly like blueberries (and what he really wants to do is place some blueberries in every type of muffin because, to him, that is the secret ingredient that muffin lovers truly crave. His muffins are not made for everyone. If you don't like blueberries, you might not like muffins from his muffin shop.)

    Well all I know is you need to eat more because you seem like a really hungry guy
  • Let's not believe that strawberry cake is a niche flavor that not a lot of people like just because Vanilla cake is more popular or that only people who likes Strawberry cakes from shops A, L and E will like Strawberry Vanilla cakes from shop AC.

    Lets also not believe that the Cake shop owner with decades of Cake Tasting experience, that understands the ingredients present in the best cakes throught that period of time being in direct contact with amazing bakers isn't capable of delivering some of the best Strawberry Vanilla cakes around.

    Do not entertain Strawberry purists nor Vanilla purists (Strawberry sprinkles and Vanilla sprinkles doesn't count) they already have their franchises.

    Yes, this is about actual cakes, it's dessert time.

    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • ill-tell-you-v0-ifb1umsgvpj91.jpg?auto=webp&s=c5aacefcbc053e98f2b148f4e3917368fe8ed554
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • SolvrynSolvryn Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ravicus wrote: »
    Better get a helmet, don't want a chunk of sky to hit you in the head! 79qhvb7f95fv.png

    I lost it.

    Big lul
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

    He has 6 years of experience as a creative director and 2 years experience as a lead game designer, plus all the different hats at Intrepid

    It's like opening a bakery shop, making bread for 6 years and a random customer saying you ain't a baker because you don't have previous experience :|

    I'm sorry, you think this means anything?

    He owns a game development company and went straight in to the creative director position, while retaining the ability to fire all other developers.

    At best, he has learned portions of things he wants to learn, but literally nothing else.

    Again, put him in a games jam and see how he does. I'll guarantee if you put him in a solo competition, he wouldn't even be able to submit a game. I honestly doubt even he would contest that point.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

    He has 6 years of experience as a creative director and 2 years experience as a lead game designer, plus all the different hats at Intrepid

    It's like opening a bakery shop, making bread for 6 years and a random customer saying you ain't a baker because you don't have previous experience :|

    I'm sorry, you think this means anything?

    He owns a game development company and went straight in to the creative director position, while retaining the ability to fire all other developers.

    At best, he has learned portions of things he wants to learn, but literally nothing else.

    Again, put him in a games jam and see how he does. I'll guarantee if you put him in a solo competition, he wouldn't even be able to submit a game. I honestly doubt even he would contest that point.

    You need a hobby besides being narcissistic on the forums for no reason. The only thing that matters is how the AoC turns out.

    Being in an environment with plenty of talented people around you will help anyone grow quickly. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what you think, the results will speak for themselves with the interest in the game and the content being shown.

    As I've said before though on the forums you don't argue with experience, you just try to belittle people. You shouldn't be talking down to anyone when you don't speak from a position of expertise let along experience playing different types of games.

    Your words hold 0 weight except sounding like a spoiled child.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    Liniker wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Steven Shariff is not a game developer.

    He has 6 years of experience as a creative director and 2 years experience as a lead game designer, plus all the different hats at Intrepid

    It's like opening a bakery shop, making bread for 6 years and a random customer saying you ain't a baker because you don't have previous experience :|

    I'm sorry, you think this means anything?

    He owns a game development company and went straight in to the creative director position, while retaining the ability to fire all other developers.

    At best, he has learned portions of things he wants to learn, but literally nothing else.

    Again, put him in a games jam and see how he does. I'll guarantee if you put him in a solo competition, he wouldn't even be able to submit a game. I honestly doubt even he would contest that point.

    I think you have no idea how management works.

    Also whether he is a game developer or not is arbitrary. We aren't asking him how to install a roof, we are asking him why we should invest in his roofing company. No one cares how the roof is installed. We are going to assume that roofs will be installed but our interests lay in how he plans on growing it, his cost controls, culture and general direction. We will want to see Business plans.Do you think a roofer would ANY idea where to even start?

    I imagine that in his time with Intrepid he has had a crash course in game development and honestly as far as they goes, that's what hiring is for and his most recent hire shows he understands that. He at this point will still have a far better understanding then you probably give him credit for but also that doesn't even matter. All of this has 0 relevance.

    Steven Shariff is the creative director and CEO. The entire direction of the game is in his hands. Vision wise and financially. So the direction of the game is ultimately his and arguing about how that gets done is a waste of time. Remember this was in reference to the use of "participation trophy" and someone claiming it can only be a pejoretive as opposed to a philosophy in the direction of the game. So stop trying to dismiss people as if that's a valid way of making an argument.
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2023
    Noaani wrote: »
    I'm sorry, you think this means anything?

    He owns a game development company and went straight in to the creative director position, while retaining the ability to fire all other developers.

    Saying Steven is not a game developer when that's his literal job is one of the most .. ridiculous things I've heard you say, and that's something

    maybe you are under the impression that only people that can code are game developers lol
    img]
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  • AbaratAbarat Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    [ You are probably the one person on the forums I absolutely do not take seriously.

    Not gonna lie... my feelings are a little hurt. I have been working at this.
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