I'm not really seeing anyone really point out a PvE system that they're excited for, or there are a lot of "PvX" responses.
That is because there aren't any.
I don't see any reason for someone that prefers PvE at all (as in, 49/51 split) to be looking at the game right now - other than in hopes the game will swing back a little as I talked about above.
It doesn't help the PvE crowd that the game didn't have a lead developer for a long while, and Steven doesn't really "get" PvE. In that time, there was basically nothing PvE related even mentioned from Intrepid. This isn't necessarily to say it wasn't worked on - just that Steven is far more inclined to talk about the things he is more passionate about (not a character fault).
So that whole tower of karthan thing and the cyclops showcase were just things they made by accident for pvp? lol
Can you point to a single video outside of alpha 1 footage that was about showcasing pvp?
You are taking comments out of context - unsure if on purpose or not - but since I am sick of this shit on these forums, I'm calling it out early.
For reference, in this thread, we are talking about things players that only enjoy PvE are excited about. I am specifically not talking about my perspective or my opinions, and was VERY clear about that at the start of the thread.
So cut this bullshit out right fucking now.
Explain why an open world boss or a sprawling tower dungeon are not related to this conversation of things that only pve players would want? I expected you to at least say that pvp can still happen in these locations, but these are very clearly pve-centric additions to the game that, barring the corruption system, would interest pve players.
I don't get what that pity party was about, It's not like I clipped your message into something it wasnt.
I'm not really seeing anyone really point out a PvE system that they're excited for, or there are a lot of "PvX" responses.
I personally don't think crafting / gathering is a PvE activity.
The modern WoW, and FF14 players will really struggle to play Ashes. Don't get me wrong I don't think they have to, but there is always an argument in some random thread how this game will have nobody playing because of the lack of PvE first game systems.
So far I'm not seeing why any of those PvE first players even want to look at Ashes.
I know i know, small sample size on a forum.
I don't think Ashes has really PvE systems. There are no dungeons to farm that don't involve PvP, no raids. I mean raids without PvP, raids that could enthral a PvEr.
the only place that you have no chance for pvp is in your house. The rest of the world you have a chance to get attacked.
Sounds to me like Dygz is more into the cooperation focused MMORPGs while many (if not most) Ashes enthusiasts prefer a mix of coop and competition, maybe because without any coop the weight of "meaningful content" would be too low and without competition the thrill would be too low.
Both positions seem perfectly understandable to me, but they probably can't occur in the same game as seeing content in the same game but the "other" system would make player feel like they are missing out.
As a primarily PvE player I see the content of Ashes that aligns with that "PvE proclivity" of mine as fun and meaningful enough to put up with the risks of PvP being possible, but that obviously won't be everyones take. Simple as that, no drama.
I don't get what that pity party was about, It's not like I clipped your message into something it wasnt.
I am talking about others perspectives.
You are demanding I defend their perspective.
Fact is, "they" can't defend their perspective, because "they" aren't interested in this game at all. Not even a little bit.
If you are unable to look at a boss encounter in an open world setting in a game with open world PvP and NOT understand why someone that wants PvE challenge would not consider that encounter to provide PvE challenge, then there is no point in trying to explain it, because you have already proven that you are either incapable of understanding, or more likely unwilling to understand.
I don't get what that pity party was about, It's not like I clipped your message into something it wasnt.
I am talking about others perspectives.
You are demanding I defend their perspective.
Fact is, "they" can't defend their perspective, because "they" aren't interested in this game at all. Not even a little bit.
If you are unable to look at a boss encounter in an open world setting in a game with open world PvP and NOT understand why someone that wants PvE challenge would not consider that encounter to provide PvE challenge, then there is no point in trying to explain it, because you have already proven that you are either incapable of understanding, or more likely unwilling to understand.
If I add a chance that there will be pvp to any other pve game, lets say mythic + in retail wow. There's a chance that another group will show up during your run. Does that just remove the pve mechanics and factors in that dungeon? Is that now just strictly a pvp experience? Are there now no longer any Pve things to like about that dungeon?
My point I am getting at is that you are completely ignoring/forgetting about the pve side of an encounter just because theres a chance someone can engage you via pvp during it. The thread is about Pve Only players looking for things to like in the game. As it is being designed with both pvp and pve in mind, we can only give examples of pve mechanics/encounters/elements that might draw over a pve player despite the pvp aspects.
If I add a chance that there will be pvp to any other pve game, lets say mythic + in retail wow. There's a chance that another group will show up during your run. Does that just remove the pve mechanics and factors in that dungeon?
If you add PvP as a factor to actual top end content, that top end content becomes literally impossible. If it is still possible, it is not actual top end content.
This is why open world encounters in games with PvP in such encounters are substantially less precise and demanding than in situations where PvP is not possible.
As such, any encounter in which PvP is possible is simply not providing players with that PvE challenge. It may be providing a PvX challenge, but not a PvE challenge.
While this is something that has been discussed on these forums a number of times, more to the point for me is the fact that this has been proven on live servers in at least one MMO, and so is not up for debate or discussion - at least not with me.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
yes, we know your stance. My statement is broad. "Has nothing to do with emotion (for me)" is your opinion. Emotion like feeling actual fear from getting pk'd, anxiety, and other reactions are very common for people and they do not like to pvp because of those reasons. Sorry if I was not clear enough. I was not talking about you personally.
Fear of getting PK'd and anxiety is mostly a PvPer misperception.
It's not very common at all.
yes, we know your stance. My statement is broad. "Has nothing to do with emotion (for me)" is your opinion. Emotion like feeling actual fear from getting pk'd, anxiety, and other reactions are very common for people and they do not like to pvp because of those reasons. Sorry if I was not clear enough. I was not talking about you personally.
Fear of getting PK'd and anxiety is mostly a PvPer misperception.
It's not very common at all.
Indeed.
In my experience, it is more frustration with not being able to do the thing they wanted to do - or at least that thing being made unnecessarily harder.
I'm not really seeing anyone really point out a PvE system that they're excited for, or there are a lot of "PvX" responses.
That is because there aren't any.
I don't see any reason for someone that prefers PvE at all (as in, 49/51 split) to be looking at the game right now - other than in hopes the game will swing back a little as I talked about above.
It doesn't help the PvE crowd that the game didn't have a lead developer for a long while, and Steven doesn't really "get" PvE. In that time, there was basically nothing PvE related even mentioned from Intrepid. This isn't necessarily to say it wasn't worked on - just that Steven is far more inclined to talk about the things he is more passionate about (not a character fault).
So that whole tower of karthan thing and the cyclops showcase were just things they made by accident for pvp? lol
Can you point to a single video outside of alpha 1 footage that was about showcasing pvp?
Great call out, he will try to weasel out of it and flip it around on you though its his mo.
Only pvp they have shown was a incomplete caravan system and one siege. Everything else has been pve related which is a good thing and what we need right now, on top of them keeping the pvx nature of the game in mind.
Doesn't matter if the first time you saw Ashes was in kickstarter, or just learned of the project 2 weeks ago.
As a PvE first player, what makes you look forward to PvE in AoC or what was the defining feature that you're looking forward to?
Nodes. I have long been waiting on a world that changes with player interaction. Static worlds no longer appeal to me for long periods of time. When I saw Ashes plans prior to their Kickstarter I was convinced this was the best current attempt to make a living world that I wanted to experience. The concept of Nodes was like a dream come true. And with that I accepted that I would have to entertain PvP at times.
Player stories. I have always loved reading the stories that come out of Eve. I personally do not like playing the game but I like the player stories. I want that with a high fantasy setting and I think we will get that with Ashes. That excites me.
Freeholds. The more I have played mmorpgs, from EQ to New World and everything in between, I have grown more and more fond of the idea of contributing to the world through item production and not combat. Freeholds fit that want perfectly.
There are more reasons, but these are the main ones that come to mind.
As someone that is in to top end PvE as well as an amount of PvP, I can see a good number of reasons why someone that prefers PvE would have been looking at Ashes in the past.
To start, there is no mention at all of PvP on the games kickstarter page. There is, however, a long list of primarily PvE games that the developers came from - games they wanted people to know "this has been our experience". Generally, when a company does that, it's a way of saying "if you liked these games, you will probably like what we are doing".
If you first read the games kickstarter and then went to the games wiki page, you would think they were two different games.
As to why anyone that isn't primarily concerned with PvP - not just PvP but actual perpetual competition with other players for basically everything - would still be looking at the game, I am not sure.
Hope that perhaps the game will swing back to something closer to what was talked about on the kickstarter page, perhaps.
This is literally the second paragraph of the Kickstarter...
"Choosing your class, race and gear is a good start, but while most MMOs stop there, Ashes of Creation is just getting started. All of civilization is the responsibility of our players, and how that civilization evolves comes down to what our players decide. If you want a city, or marketplaces or the comfort of your own home, it’s up to you to build it. If a city is encroaching on your territory, it’s up to you to destroy it. Allies and enemies, friends and foes, these are words determined by you, not by us - there is no red and blue team for you to fall back on. Your grudges, your wars, your peace are real things, created by you, and the history of conflict is the history of the players. "
I'm typically a PvE player that will PvP. I'm just not very good at PvP.
As for me It is still exactly what I thought it was going to be. Also if you know ANYTING about concept, vision and development, you know things can and will change. However, I don't see anything that's changed that goes against what the original vision was. Are some things being done in a way I didn't think? sure. But the initial concept/vision is still intact.
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RavicusMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
yes, we know your stance. My statement is broad. "Has nothing to do with emotion (for me)" is your opinion. Emotion like feeling actual fear from getting pk'd, anxiety, and other reactions are very common for people and they do not like to pvp because of those reasons. Sorry if I was not clear enough. I was not talking about you personally.
Fear of getting PK'd and anxiety is mostly a PvPer misperception.
It's not very common at all.
again, that is your opinion. It is impossible to debate someones opinion. You have yours, I have mine. You just cant go around saying "I am right and you are wrong because I think differently". It doesnt work that way.
As someone that is in to top end PvE as well as an amount of PvP, I can see a good number of reasons why someone that prefers PvE would have been looking at Ashes in the past.
To start, there is no mention at all of PvP on the games kickstarter page. There is, however, a long list of primarily PvE games that the developers came from - games they wanted people to know "this has been our experience". Generally, when a company does that, it's a way of saying "if you liked these games, you will probably like what we are doing".
If you first read the games kickstarter and then went to the games wiki page, you would think they were two different games.
As to why anyone that isn't primarily concerned with PvP - not just PvP but actual perpetual competition with other players for basically everything - would still be looking at the game, I am not sure.
Hope that perhaps the game will swing back to something closer to what was talked about on the kickstarter page, perhaps.
This is literally the second paragraph of the Kickstarter...
"Choosing your class, race and gear is a good start, but while most MMOs stop there, Ashes of Creation is just getting started. All of civilization is the responsibility of our players, and how that civilization evolves comes down to what our players decide. If you want a city, or marketplaces or the comfort of your own home, it’s up to you to build it. If a city is encroaching on your territory, it’s up to you to destroy it. Allies and enemies, friends and foes, these are words determined by you, not by us - there is no red and blue team for you to fall back on. Your grudges, your wars, your peace are real things, created by you, and the history of conflict is the history of the players. "
Doesn't say anything about PvP.
Definately doesn't say anything about open world PvP.
Keep in mind that I am not talking about my perception of the kickstarter page - I am talking about possible perceptions. All of the above can be had in a game without PvP - and one would think that if PvP were a core aspect of the game, a simple ctrl+f search for PvP would at least result in a mention.
---
It is perfectly reasonable to assume the kickstarter page for a game that has PvP as a core aspect of it to the extent that Ashes has would have the term PvP somewhere on it's kickstarter page where it is asking people for money.
I'm actually quite sure you would agree with that.
Doesn't matter if the first time you saw Ashes was in kickstarter, or just learned of the project 2 weeks ago.
As a PvE first player, what makes you look forward to PvE in AoC or what was the defining feature that you're looking forward to?
In 98% of mmo's ive played since 98 i primarily play only PvE. However as a pve first player i want to first make the distinction that from time to time i do go 100% pvp by joining pvp servers on extremly rare occassions. Such events included Darktide PvP Server in Asherons Call(Primary server was Winterseb), Guild Wars BG's, Eve Online Null-sec and 0.0 warfare, WoW Competitive BG's before arenas was a thing, SWG faction warfare, Star Citizen PvP(If you can call that a mmo..) as well as some others i may have forgotten to mention. It is also important to state that i do not mind being involved in pvp per say to a point, however if you were to ask me what i'd like to spend the majority of my time doing in any MMO it certainly won't be pvp and it most likely makes up only 10%-15% of my gametime in all my history from 98' till now.
To begin i think it might be a bit misleading to ask any Ashes player why they would look forward to PvE without mentioning PvP to some extent even if little bobby refuses to ever fight back.. The main thing that keeps PvE players playing PvX games is the way the game allows for a divide by using systems that help mitigate who and where said pvp'ers are allowed to attack or how. This can be done by areas that are essentially safe or by using systems such as corruption and or mitigating being lawful in certain areas ensuring there are places or areas pve players can feel pretty safe. I suspect those who understand the systems in ashes will understand by now the nodes you live in or contribute to in other words at worst will be sometype of soft-safe zone to lessen the dangers. However i am unsure if it will help much without the corruption being boosted by support from a lawful system to essentially curtail node members cannibalizing its own population. You as a node member and or guild want to protect whoever is involved with your nodes. In any case to get more directly back to your question i look forward to ashes because it's simply a opportunity to be a part of something larger then myself which a MMO should be. Even though i doubt i won't pvp in a pvx game or try to plan my days the same as long as a balance is there somewhere even if i just end up only mostly spending my time around my home node it does not bother me much. I did play with Overlords in Alpha 1 which is a big AoC PvP guild but i doubt i would ever want to join a pure pvp guild. I'm not saying i will play AoC on or after release for long the game may flop, pop may be too low for me, who knows, i have my serious doubts.. we will see... I believe the player base will play a huge role in if i stay or not.
You can't consider AoC a safe PvE game for anyone unless you just don't fight back and treat the players like NPC's when they kill you. The only safe place is instanced dungeons and raids and the major majority are not instanced which will be fought over for pvp. Even getting to said raid or dungeon you may die.. Getting to said instanced apartment you may die. YOU WILL BE KILLED BY PLAYERS IN AOC.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I mean with that line of thinking it doesn’t directly reference PvE either.
If I add a chance that there will be pvp to any other pve game, lets say mythic + in retail wow. There's a chance that another group will show up during your run. Does that just remove the pve mechanics and factors in that dungeon?
If you add PvP as a factor to actual top end content, that top end content becomes literally impossible. If it is still possible, it is not actual top end content.
This is why open world encounters in games with PvP in such encounters are substantially less precise and demanding than in situations where PvP is not possible.
As such, any encounter in which PvP is possible is simply not providing players with that PvE challenge. It may be providing a PvX challenge, but not a PvE challenge.
While this is something that has been discussed on these forums a number of times, more to the point for me is the fact that this has been proven on live servers in at least one MMO, and so is not up for debate or discussion - at least not with me.
Its not up for debate? Look. Sometimes you do things because they are just that good, despite the downsides. I would argue that the tower of karthan and the cyclops are perfect examples of things that a pve player would try the game for and like, despite the pvp. This early on its already looking quite good. You also have the ever expanding types of enemies they have shown from minotaurs to zombies to dragons to flowers to elementals. etc etc.
I am not even denying that the pvp could make those fights impossible or trivial so that they can be completed during pvp. My point is that they have quite clearly shown pve things that a normal pve player would probably like, and perhaps even stay for despite having to deal with pvp.
I don't believe just because there was a game you saw that failed to deliver this appropriately means that all future games will never be able to do it, so why apply it as a rule or fact for this game thats still in alpha?
again, that is your opinion. It is impossible to debate someones opinion. You have yours, I have mine. You just cant go around saying "I am right and you are wrong because I think differently". It doesnt work that way.
LMAO
I've been in PvPer v PvEer discussions for 10 years now.
You don't have to accept the info I share. I don't feel any need to debate or convince you.
I'm just sharing the info.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You can't consider AoC a safe PvE game for anyone unless you just don't fight back and treat the players like NPC's when they kill you. The only safe place is instanced dungeons and raids and the major majority are not instanced which will be fought over for pvp. Even getting to said raid or dungeon you may die.. Getting to said instanced apartment you may die. YOU WILL BE KILLED BY PLAYERS IN AOC.
Yeah... I mean I'm not sure what the point of the question is.
Anyone planning to play Ashes kinda has to be some form of PvP-sometimes player. I would think.
You can't consider AoC a safe PvE game for anyone unless you just don't fight back and treat the players like NPC's when they kill you. The only safe place is instanced dungeons and raids and the major majority are not instanced which will be fought over for pvp. Even getting to said raid or dungeon you may die.. Getting to said instanced apartment you may die. YOU WILL BE KILLED BY PLAYERS IN AOC.
Yeah... I mean I'm not sure what the point of the question is.
Anyone planning to play Ashes kinda has to be some form of PvP-sometimes player. I would think.
"As a PvE first player"
OP did not specify ONLY PvE
But yes the reason he asked in of itself is still a reasonable wonder.
I mean with that line of thinking it doesn’t directly reference PvE either.
Indeed it doesn't, but then we go back and look at the games they are proudly displaying the development team is from.
Like planetside and planet side 2 and SWG
And EQ, EQ2, EQN, Vanguard and Xcom.
Keep in mind a few things here. People were looking for PvP mentions on the kickstarter page and found none. They were not looking for PvE mentions because that is a given in an MMORPG.
Even with those three games, we can discount both planetside games and Xcom (in regards to this) for not being MMORPG's. That leaves SWG as the only MMORPG example of PvP.
The best you seem to be saying here is that people should have expected SWG levels of PvP going in to Ashes - but even arriving at that point requires a bit of hindsight.
Fact is, people (especially those adverse to PvP) absolutely will look to see if an MMORPG has PvP in it or not - because many simply don't have any PvP or have PvP that isn't required. I've yet to meet anyone that expects an MMORPG to not have PvE - and so people wouldn't look for it.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I would argue that the tower of karthan and the cyclops are perfect examples of things that a pve player would try the game for and like, despite the pvp. This early on its already looking quite good. You also have the ever expanding types of enemies they have shown from minotaurs to zombies to dragons to flowers to elementals. etc etc.
I am not even denying that the pvp could make those fights impossible or trivial so that they can be completed during pvp. My point is that they have quite clearly shown pve things that a normal pve player would probably like, and perhaps even stay for despite having to deal with pvp.
I don't believe just because there was a game you saw that failed to deliver this appropriately means that all future games will never be able to do it, so why apply it as a rule or fact for this game thats still in alpha?
I think this would more likely be a thing if Ashes was the only MMORPG available.
Tower of Karthan and the Cyclops cannot entice me to play on a server with a PvP ruleset I find distasteful.
My Bartle Score is: Explorer 87; Socializer 73; Achiever 47; Killer 0
If Fantmx and Neurotoxin asked me to join them once a month for Tower of Karthan, I might do that just to be social. And it wouldn't matter how fun the dungeon was. The fun would be in spending some time with them in an MMORPG. Same if they asked me to join a Siege once a month.
But... in terms of truly playing my 8-hour per day game sessions - Ashes is practically at the bottom of my list of MMOs I would play week-to-week. I have no interest in pursuing any of the progression paths or exploring the map because my primary goal of exploring the entire map is made impossible by the auto-consent, Corruption-free Open Seas.
Because I refuse to auto-consent to PvP.
People who are willing to deal with PvP are probably some form of PvP-sometimes player.
I am a PvP-sometimes player. But, Ashes does not have a server with a PvP ruleset I'm willing to play on.
I am Braver of Worlds, so... I won't have to pay a subscription to play.
If I did have to pay a subscription - I wouldn't play at all after launch.
Even if Fantmx and Neurotoxin asked me to play with them.
I would just play with them in the other MMORPGs that have servers with PvP rulesets that fit within my comfort zone - ones that fully prevent or always have a method of punishing non-consensual PvP.
Tower of Karthan also would not be able to entice players who find that Corruption does not deter instances of non-consensual to their satisfaction.
The fact that an encounter designed to test players to the actual mechanical limits of the game in an insolated manner being impossible to defeat when that isolation is removed is indeed not up for debate.
The fact that an encounter designed to test players to the actual mechanical limits of the game in an insolated manner being impossible to defeat when that isolation is removed is indeed not up for debate.
One, it is not isolated as it is open world in both cases. I do not expect these fights, nor should you, to be designed with the mind that a group of people will never be attacked in pvp.
Two, you don't know if its impossible or not because you, nor I, or anyone else has played the released version of these features. Now, if you "assume" this will be the case, that is just your opinion. But to try and claim that this is why these pve features cannot be considered for drawing over pve players is just illogical.
again, that is your opinion. It is impossible to debate someones opinion. You have yours, I have mine. You just cant go around saying "I am right and you are wrong because I think differently". It doesnt work that way.
LMAO
I've been in PvPer v PvEer discussions for 10 years now.
You don't have to accept the info I share. I don't feel any need to debate or convince you.
I'm just sharing the info.
Thats all fine and dandy, and I have had my fair share of knowledge also. We can agree to disagree and that is fine, just don't think you are above me. We should treat each other with respect.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2023
Equality is my highest value.
You said it's my opinion. I merely informed you that it's not only my opinion.
I didn't say anything about being above you.
But to try and claim that this is why these pve features cannot be considered for drawing over pve players is just illogical.
Yeah, you're right.
That is why so many of the tens of millions of PvE MMO players are so keen on this game.
Or - maybe, just perhaps, I'm right about the reasons some of my best friends aren't interested in this game.
No, you must be right. It must be something else. Clearly those of us with decades of top end PvE experience just don't understand top end PvE content as well as you.
But to try and claim that this is why these pve features cannot be considered for drawing over pve players is just illogical.
Yeah, you're right.
That is why so many of the tens of millions of PvE MMO players are so keen on this game.
Or - maybe, just perhaps, I'm right about the reasons some of my best friends aren't interested in this game.
No, you must be right. It must be something else. Clearly those of us with decades of top end PvE experience just don't understand top end PvE content as well as you.
what is top end pve? what does pve need to have to be top end?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Comments
Explain why an open world boss or a sprawling tower dungeon are not related to this conversation of things that only pve players would want? I expected you to at least say that pvp can still happen in these locations, but these are very clearly pve-centric additions to the game that, barring the corruption system, would interest pve players.
I don't get what that pity party was about, It's not like I clipped your message into something it wasnt.
the only place that you have no chance for pvp is in your house. The rest of the world you have a chance to get attacked.
Both positions seem perfectly understandable to me, but they probably can't occur in the same game as seeing content in the same game but the "other" system would make player feel like they are missing out.
As a primarily PvE player I see the content of Ashes that aligns with that "PvE proclivity" of mine as fun and meaningful enough to put up with the risks of PvP being possible, but that obviously won't be everyones take. Simple as that, no drama.
You are demanding I defend their perspective.
Fact is, "they" can't defend their perspective, because "they" aren't interested in this game at all. Not even a little bit.
If you are unable to look at a boss encounter in an open world setting in a game with open world PvP and NOT understand why someone that wants PvE challenge would not consider that encounter to provide PvE challenge, then there is no point in trying to explain it, because you have already proven that you are either incapable of understanding, or more likely unwilling to understand.
If I add a chance that there will be pvp to any other pve game, lets say mythic + in retail wow. There's a chance that another group will show up during your run. Does that just remove the pve mechanics and factors in that dungeon? Is that now just strictly a pvp experience? Are there now no longer any Pve things to like about that dungeon?
My point I am getting at is that you are completely ignoring/forgetting about the pve side of an encounter just because theres a chance someone can engage you via pvp during it. The thread is about Pve Only players looking for things to like in the game. As it is being designed with both pvp and pve in mind, we can only give examples of pve mechanics/encounters/elements that might draw over a pve player despite the pvp aspects.
This is why open world encounters in games with PvP in such encounters are substantially less precise and demanding than in situations where PvP is not possible.
As such, any encounter in which PvP is possible is simply not providing players with that PvE challenge. It may be providing a PvX challenge, but not a PvE challenge.
While this is something that has been discussed on these forums a number of times, more to the point for me is the fact that this has been proven on live servers in at least one MMO, and so is not up for debate or discussion - at least not with me.
It's not very common at all.
Indeed.
In my experience, it is more frustration with not being able to do the thing they wanted to do - or at least that thing being made unnecessarily harder.
Great call out, he will try to weasel out of it and flip it around on you though its his mo.
Only pvp they have shown was a incomplete caravan system and one siege. Everything else has been pve related which is a good thing and what we need right now, on top of them keeping the pvx nature of the game in mind.
Nodes. I have long been waiting on a world that changes with player interaction. Static worlds no longer appeal to me for long periods of time. When I saw Ashes plans prior to their Kickstarter I was convinced this was the best current attempt to make a living world that I wanted to experience. The concept of Nodes was like a dream come true. And with that I accepted that I would have to entertain PvP at times.
Player stories. I have always loved reading the stories that come out of Eve. I personally do not like playing the game but I like the player stories. I want that with a high fantasy setting and I think we will get that with Ashes. That excites me.
Freeholds. The more I have played mmorpgs, from EQ to New World and everything in between, I have grown more and more fond of the idea of contributing to the world through item production and not combat. Freeholds fit that want perfectly.
There are more reasons, but these are the main ones that come to mind.
This is literally the second paragraph of the Kickstarter...
"Choosing your class, race and gear is a good start, but while most MMOs stop there, Ashes of Creation is just getting started. All of civilization is the responsibility of our players, and how that civilization evolves comes down to what our players decide. If you want a city, or marketplaces or the comfort of your own home, it’s up to you to build it. If a city is encroaching on your territory, it’s up to you to destroy it. Allies and enemies, friends and foes, these are words determined by you, not by us - there is no red and blue team for you to fall back on. Your grudges, your wars, your peace are real things, created by you, and the history of conflict is the history of the players. "
I'm typically a PvE player that will PvP. I'm just not very good at PvP.
As for me It is still exactly what I thought it was going to be. Also if you know ANYTING about concept, vision and development, you know things can and will change. However, I don't see anything that's changed that goes against what the original vision was. Are some things being done in a way I didn't think? sure. But the initial concept/vision is still intact.
"Come join us as you wont like the taste of the Grapefruits we're throwing at our enemies."
"Never settle for what you think you know" - C. Krauthammer
again, that is your opinion. It is impossible to debate someones opinion. You have yours, I have mine. You just cant go around saying "I am right and you are wrong because I think differently". It doesnt work that way.
Definately doesn't say anything about open world PvP.
Keep in mind that I am not talking about my perception of the kickstarter page - I am talking about possible perceptions. All of the above can be had in a game without PvP - and one would think that if PvP were a core aspect of the game, a simple ctrl+f search for PvP would at least result in a mention.
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It is perfectly reasonable to assume the kickstarter page for a game that has PvP as a core aspect of it to the extent that Ashes has would have the term PvP somewhere on it's kickstarter page where it is asking people for money.
I'm actually quite sure you would agree with that.
In 98% of mmo's ive played since 98 i primarily play only PvE. However as a pve first player i want to first make the distinction that from time to time i do go 100% pvp by joining pvp servers on extremly rare occassions. Such events included Darktide PvP Server in Asherons Call(Primary server was Winterseb), Guild Wars BG's, Eve Online Null-sec and 0.0 warfare, WoW Competitive BG's before arenas was a thing, SWG faction warfare, Star Citizen PvP(If you can call that a mmo..) as well as some others i may have forgotten to mention. It is also important to state that i do not mind being involved in pvp per say to a point, however if you were to ask me what i'd like to spend the majority of my time doing in any MMO it certainly won't be pvp and it most likely makes up only 10%-15% of my gametime in all my history from 98' till now.
To begin i think it might be a bit misleading to ask any Ashes player why they would look forward to PvE without mentioning PvP to some extent even if little bobby refuses to ever fight back.. The main thing that keeps PvE players playing PvX games is the way the game allows for a divide by using systems that help mitigate who and where said pvp'ers are allowed to attack or how. This can be done by areas that are essentially safe or by using systems such as corruption and or mitigating being lawful in certain areas ensuring there are places or areas pve players can feel pretty safe. I suspect those who understand the systems in ashes will understand by now the nodes you live in or contribute to in other words at worst will be sometype of soft-safe zone to lessen the dangers. However i am unsure if it will help much without the corruption being boosted by support from a lawful system to essentially curtail node members cannibalizing its own population. You as a node member and or guild want to protect whoever is involved with your nodes. In any case to get more directly back to your question i look forward to ashes because it's simply a opportunity to be a part of something larger then myself which a MMO should be. Even though i doubt i won't pvp in a pvx game or try to plan my days the same as long as a balance is there somewhere even if i just end up only mostly spending my time around my home node it does not bother me much. I did play with Overlords in Alpha 1 which is a big AoC PvP guild but i doubt i would ever want to join a pure pvp guild. I'm not saying i will play AoC on or after release for long the game may flop, pop may be too low for me, who knows, i have my serious doubts.. we will see... I believe the player base will play a huge role in if i stay or not.
You can't consider AoC a safe PvE game for anyone unless you just don't fight back and treat the players like NPC's when they kill you. The only safe place is instanced dungeons and raids and the major majority are not instanced which will be fought over for pvp. Even getting to said raid or dungeon you may die.. Getting to said instanced apartment you may die. YOU WILL BE KILLED BY PLAYERS IN AOC.
Its not up for debate? Look. Sometimes you do things because they are just that good, despite the downsides. I would argue that the tower of karthan and the cyclops are perfect examples of things that a pve player would try the game for and like, despite the pvp. This early on its already looking quite good. You also have the ever expanding types of enemies they have shown from minotaurs to zombies to dragons to flowers to elementals. etc etc.
I am not even denying that the pvp could make those fights impossible or trivial so that they can be completed during pvp. My point is that they have quite clearly shown pve things that a normal pve player would probably like, and perhaps even stay for despite having to deal with pvp.
I don't believe just because there was a game you saw that failed to deliver this appropriately means that all future games will never be able to do it, so why apply it as a rule or fact for this game thats still in alpha?
Indeed it doesn't, but then we go back and look at the games they are proudly displaying the development team is from.
I've been in PvPer v PvEer discussions for 10 years now.
You don't have to accept the info I share. I don't feel any need to debate or convince you.
I'm just sharing the info.
Like planetside and planet side 2 and SWG
Anyone planning to play Ashes kinda has to be some form of PvP-sometimes player. I would think.
"As a PvE first player"
OP did not specify ONLY PvE
But yes the reason he asked in of itself is still a reasonable wonder.
And EQ, EQ2, EQN, Vanguard and Xcom.
Keep in mind a few things here. People were looking for PvP mentions on the kickstarter page and found none. They were not looking for PvE mentions because that is a given in an MMORPG.
Even with those three games, we can discount both planetside games and Xcom (in regards to this) for not being MMORPG's. That leaves SWG as the only MMORPG example of PvP.
The best you seem to be saying here is that people should have expected SWG levels of PvP going in to Ashes - but even arriving at that point requires a bit of hindsight.
Fact is, people (especially those adverse to PvP) absolutely will look to see if an MMORPG has PvP in it or not - because many simply don't have any PvP or have PvP that isn't required. I've yet to meet anyone that expects an MMORPG to not have PvE - and so people wouldn't look for it.
Tower of Karthan and the Cyclops cannot entice me to play on a server with a PvP ruleset I find distasteful.
My Bartle Score is: Explorer 87; Socializer 73; Achiever 47; Killer 0
If Fantmx and Neurotoxin asked me to join them once a month for Tower of Karthan, I might do that just to be social. And it wouldn't matter how fun the dungeon was. The fun would be in spending some time with them in an MMORPG. Same if they asked me to join a Siege once a month.
But... in terms of truly playing my 8-hour per day game sessions - Ashes is practically at the bottom of my list of MMOs I would play week-to-week. I have no interest in pursuing any of the progression paths or exploring the map because my primary goal of exploring the entire map is made impossible by the auto-consent, Corruption-free Open Seas.
Because I refuse to auto-consent to PvP.
People who are willing to deal with PvP are probably some form of PvP-sometimes player.
I am a PvP-sometimes player. But, Ashes does not have a server with a PvP ruleset I'm willing to play on.
I am Braver of Worlds, so... I won't have to pay a subscription to play.
If I did have to pay a subscription - I wouldn't play at all after launch.
Even if Fantmx and Neurotoxin asked me to play with them.
I would just play with them in the other MMORPGs that have servers with PvP rulesets that fit within my comfort zone - ones that fully prevent or always have a method of punishing non-consensual PvP.
Tower of Karthan also would not be able to entice players who find that Corruption does not deter instances of non-consensual to their satisfaction.
One, it is not isolated as it is open world in both cases. I do not expect these fights, nor should you, to be designed with the mind that a group of people will never be attacked in pvp.
Two, you don't know if its impossible or not because you, nor I, or anyone else has played the released version of these features. Now, if you "assume" this will be the case, that is just your opinion. But to try and claim that this is why these pve features cannot be considered for drawing over pve players is just illogical.
Thats all fine and dandy, and I have had my fair share of knowledge also. We can agree to disagree and that is fine, just don't think you are above me. We should treat each other with respect.
You said it's my opinion. I merely informed you that it's not only my opinion.
I didn't say anything about being above you.
Yeah, you're right.
That is why so many of the tens of millions of PvE MMO players are so keen on this game.
Or - maybe, just perhaps, I'm right about the reasons some of my best friends aren't interested in this game.
No, you must be right. It must be something else. Clearly those of us with decades of top end PvE experience just don't understand top end PvE content as well as you.
what is top end pve? what does pve need to have to be top end?