Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
I asked when was there a set-in-stone decision that was objectively bad. The idea to have the quests for reducing corruption located somewhere where people could barely reach it was indeed counter to the intended game design of Ashes as put out be Intrepid. However, it was not set in stone. There was no speculation, there was a clean analysis of the decision compared to the intent put out by the same people. It was found to be contradicting and therefore the community pointed that out.
Now lets switch to the recent example of bidding on freehold parcels / estates. People lost their sh*t "bidding is bad". No analysis of the other systems that were mentioned to determine access to the bidding process, in fact partly completely ignoring that any of these systems were in development. A final judgement "this is bad" was made, while it was blatantly clear that Intrepid did not finish the whole system, without any acknowledgement of the fact that freeholds were intended to be prestigious objects not everyone - especially casual players - might be able to achieve with ease, no discussion in the intended frame of Ashes aiming at being a group oriented game. None of that. Just "bidding is bad". What exactly is a game designer supposed to do with that statement? They already know that an auction system alone wouldn't make sense for what they were trying to achieve which was why they mentioned that other systems are in development to tune this further. By reading the "Having people just make bids for freeholds is a bad idea." they have gained zero new information. They don't know what the community would like to see the other, already announced regulating systems to look like and therefore have no support from the writer of that statement in which direction they might have to look with their further development. The statement changed nothing.
And like I said: Yes somehting could just be bad game design, but I have yet to see an instance of Intrepid on making a design choice that is dysfunctional. To my knowledge they did not insist on any dysfunctional systems. And when warned - like in Noannis example - about a contradicting circumstance in game design they reacted appropriately.
However, speculating about something that either already known to not be that way (like "just bidding" to determine who gets a freehold) or focussing solely on the worst possible design choice like it was already set in stone to be that is what makes me wonder whether someone is even trusting Intrepid at all, wants to bait for emotional responses or is already in a doomer state.
I hope I managed to explain my point and why I think that my response made sense.
From my perspective bidding + exclusivity + economic engine gating is automatically bad relative to the goal of a strong robust economy.
Freeholds being prestigious yet a limit on Free Economic Actors in an MMORPG is the flaw.
processed bananas = #1 best bananas
bananas sold by npc = #2 best bananas
bananas rewarded from quests = #3 best bananas
bananas for everyone, different quality
On the point of economic engine gating: My suspicion is that this is due to Intrepid assuming that it takes players with "high dedication" (like longer playtimes of lets say 4 hours+ per day and/or players solely focused on processing) to produce as much as the economy needs. Of course IF that were the case we could dicsuss whether it would make more sense to have more freeholds overall or to decrease resource requirements to remove the bottleneck ( < this is what I would describe as a "wheighted statement" due to a lack of information). But overall it comes back to everyone involved needing to test the system, for which the Alpha 2 will be crucial.
This is a great point of discussion!
Though I wouldn't agree with the statement. Being a rare attainment but also a critical element of the economy definitely creates partially opposing forces. But I can see a few points for which this conflict is viable.
First, it can serve as fuel for PvP: The resources from freeholds are so limited that someone will always be short on them, therefore that faction has an incentive to take them from someone else, resulting in new content to be unlocked as old Nodes fall and new ones rise up - this would be a desirable effect as changes in Ashes are intended to be player driven. And scarcity fueled conflict provides a natural incentive for it, even though Intrepid could obviously just not make things scarce.
Secondly, the scarcity of the freehold adds to what makes it desirable so abundance of access would make it less prestigious - this might not be a sentiment everyone shares but this thesis has been proven sufficiently in reality and in the end real people will play the game so there is a solid case that scarcity of freeholds is a key contributor to what is making them prestigious in the first place.
Third, there is no absolutely free economy, "free" economy never really referred to an economy "freed" from scarcity or all limitations and looking at the wiki I haven't found any reference that indicates that Intrepid aims at creating a free economy. There are regional markets, there are political offices that are able to restrict productivity via taxes but there are also options to set up cooperative operations like trading routes.
But before I dive any deeper into this: What did you think or what do you expect the economy of Ashes to look like? Since I brought it up in my first point: How do you expect/hope/think the change in Verra take place (mainly of course the PvP driven change with node sieges)? And what makes something "prestigious" if not scarcity (would just being expensive be enough in your opinion)?
Because of the nature of MMORPGs and the ways in which they differ from the real world, creating an Economy where the majority of players are not Free Economic Actors results in a game with no actual Economy at all (for the purposes of this discussion, since this needs a definition and it's subjective, let's just say that I mean 'BDO tier').
I could answer your questions but none of them are related to the concept I'm attempting to talk about.
Economies are built out of something or evolve. Game economies by nature almost always are built (unless you're playing MineCraft. Because most are built (any game where any drop has any NPC value counts as 'built') those ones are in the category where they have a 'requirement' for maximization of Free Economic Actors.
can a lawyer suddenly decide that he wants to be a heart doctor and take heart patients the next day?
most of the goods and services of any one thing are produced by a minority who went into that one thing. same happens with fh. u have a minority producing most of the processed goods. what are you talking about no economy at all? thats insane.
See, this response implies that you actually completely understand this but either don't understand the specific ways in which MMORPGs are different, or you have chosen to dismiss it for no specific reason.
And I worry that this is the same perspective from which many other people view these things. All I'm saying is that some experience or maybe 'contemplation' is required to move from what sounds or feels correct based on real life, to 'a thing that actually works in a game'.
This is the thing I am claiming to have studied for years (on my own, again, claiming no accreditations).
But to answer your question...
1. Can people produce goods infinitely irl?
Depending on the timescale we are discussing, absolutely. That's what farming is.
2. Can a lawyer suddenly decide that he wants to be a heart doctor and take heart patients the next day?
No, and I can perhaps see what you are trying to get at here, but games don't work like this. Particularly PvX games where a knight can 'suddenly decide that he wants to be a bandit and be raiding caravans the next day'.
Yes, this is connected to Production, because 'becoming a bandit' is a Free Economic Actor option to all with a risk-reward payout and Freeholds are the opposite of this in almost every way.
It is absolutely linked to the topic, when you don't give me the chance to understand your perspective there is no point in having a discussion in the first place. But since that's the case then we can close this by saying: We have different opinions.
Please understand that 'explaining my perspective' is literally writing a book. I am not asking you to take what I say at face value, I only want to limit the flow of the conversation.
But perhaps we do, in that perhaps you consider 'Economy' subjective enough that we disagree on that? Hence the BDO mention.
It does not matter what the Ashes Economy looks like if it is something we define as 'better than BDO at least', because the number of cases where one can design something that works and then choose to limit the Free Economic Actors in the way being discussed is too small (technically I want to say it's impossible but obviously that will get us nowhere).
I do not remember if you are one of those 'Well just because it's never been done before doesn't mean it can't be done' since I didn't model that for you. If you are, yes, we can close it by saying we have different opinions.
1- ok i didnt word my question correctly so ill just provide an example.
you are producing 100 carrots a day and selling 50 to 50 people and the other 50 spoil and you have to throw them away.. then 50 immigrants come to your country and buy carrots, now you are selling all 100 carrots.
then next day another 50 immigrants come to your country, you cant magically produce 150 carrots, you will still be producing 100 and people have to wait in line for the carrots. maybe the carrots price will go up, so some people wont be able to afford the carrots, maybe some of the original 50, so they will buy eggplants. you are still selling your 100 carrots, but you cant make more than 100. thats what i meant by produce things infinetely. another 100 people come to your country, so i decide to sell carrots. i make 50 carrots a day, so there are still people without carrots. if someone else comes and makes 500 carrots a day now we have to compete for customers instead of customers competing for carrots and some carrots will be wasted. in a mmorpg my carrots are not different than yours, unlike in real life, where my carrots might be better than yours.
2- if you are a master armorer blacksmith and the next day you decide you want to be a tailor or an alchemist, you cant on a whim. you have to train. you arent being limited, you just have to work and put effort to get there. not everybody can produce everything at the same time. you are now an alchemist but guess what? now people need an armorer blacksmith, so someone else will rise up to the occasion.
not everybody will have a fh in ashes but doesnt matter because all fh will be producing goods. doesnt matter if its joe or bob. if joe is processing, then bob will do gathering or crafting. in real life, you dont always get to pick what you do and you still have an economy. people can enter the economy.
So these 3 questions that I posed would fill a book, fine, then how is a game developer supposed to deal with your commentary if its impossible for you to lay out what you want/hope/expect to be the driver of change in Verra if not scaricty of for example freeholds? If explaining what makes something prestigious other than scarctiy is too much of a hassle? They can't just cross it off the list in hope that something is left.
Never played BDO so I am not going to make that part of my definition. I provided a definition for what I understand when someone calls parts of Ashes' game design as "dysfunctional".
No idea what this refers to.
I don't disagree with anything you wrote here, again, I perceive that what is happening is that you understand all the things you are saying, just (in my biased opinion) don't understand how to apply them to player behaviour or economic models in an MMO.
If you don't mind, please clarify to me the relevance since I don't actually know why you brought up the first question to begin with.
I presume you're saying 'because you can produce goods infinitely in an MMORPG, it implies X'.
But I don't know what X is, and I am also a player who comes from an MMORPG where it is closer to real life. Very little money is generated, and spawnrates limit drops (in a few cases it was possible for the server to literally consume the entirety of the possible production).
im at work now typing as fast as i can. ill reply tonight when i can type more calmly.
This is why I limit the commentary.
But I generally expect that if I am discussing basics of econ design in MMORPGs, the developer that needs to read it understands certain terms, particularly the common ones. It is not hard to find articles, papers, and such on the matter.
I would not expect an Econ designer to be thinking in terms of 'prestige', I would expect them to be speaking in similar terms that I'm using. I'm not using those terms because I just like throwing words around.
As for the last part, just ignore it.
So yes, I am 'assuming that a designer or developer can interpret my feedback through the shared experiences that I consider likely between people that study this in games'. I also am assuming that a decently experienced designer already understands why the limiting of Free Economic Actors will push the economy type of the game in a certain direction, and possibly why it is being perceived in the way it is by the community.
Beyond that what could I do that would be reasonable on forums? I begin by assuming they know what I'm talking about, and then if they didn't, what? "Tell them to go read up on it more"? I don't see that going well here.
I'm not saying Intrepid has made an error in design. I'm saying at worst that they've made an error in communication, but that people who take that communicated information, attempt to extrapolate from it (they asked for Feedback, right?) and give opinions that claim 'this is bad game design' aren't particularly wrong to do so, and Noaani's point was that there have been times in the past where this has happened.
tl;dr - I'd expect the Econ developer to have already 'read the book'.
Good Scarcity:
There is only one Super Cool Dragon once a Week on the Server and you are free to act by attempting to engage this dragon once you are sufficiently prepared, other people can stop you mostly or only through Action (Action COMBAT!)
Bad Scarcity:
There is only one Super Cool Dragon once a Week on the Server and you are only allowed to fight it if you are in a party with the Mayor of a specific Economic Node and once the Mayor has achieved that position the only way to remove them is to destroy the Node entirely and rebuild it.
Obviously there is hyperbole in there. Here's the simple version:
"If you can hold property and prevent the use of it with a guarantee of no illegal use of that property via simply taking possession of it, other Economic Actors are now limited."
Personally I'd be fine with 'an aspiring Master Processor being able to sneak into your Freehold and use your stuff' if this is what the game is supposed to be like. My issue is that if you offer some guarantees, you 'should' offer others. Games offer the guarantee that what is yours is yours to an extent, and as such sometimes need to offer the guarantee that 'what is yours' can include certain things that others cannot indefinitely withhold.
Yes. I get that... players who like pvp and have no corruption to slow them down will be in those zones more frequently than other zones (which have corruption)... so, it stands to reason there will be more of those players/groups roaming the seas looking for adventure... and they are more likely to run across your caravan... thus making it more risky. The penalty for your caravan being destroyed is not more, but it is more likely you will encounter resistance. Those are my thoughts.
You never seem to acknowledge that systems don't work in a vacuum... they play off/interact with one another.
P2W is not objectively bad design. But plenty of people here would abandon Ashes if Steven suddenly announced Ashes has some P2W features.
Mainland Caravans are more likely to run along predictable paths.
While Open Seas Caravans are less likely to run along predictable paths.
Bandits/Pirates - not much difference.
You have no evidence to support your assertion.
LOL. If having 100% of the facts was a requirement to post, it would be a LOT quieter around here.
for example, your whole predictable path theory. 100% made up. Just saying.
Your post count would be less than half what it is now.
I am starting to think you really are an angry man. Passive AF, but angry.
You could also assert that Economic Nodes will be the most popular.
Same amount of relevance. 0 evidence.
you are a hard person to like.
While this is perfectly possible for Intrepid to do, doing so would be a massive change in direction for the game.
Keep in mind, the notion that most gear (basically all gear, according to comments from Steven) will be player made is as key an aspect of the originally presented game as PvP.
Could they change it to remove the notion of most (or all) gear being player made? Sure.
Should you go assuming such a drastic change in the games design without it being announced just because it is the only way you can justify something you quite like as not being really bad game design? Probably not.
its not a change in direction because is never said ALL gear will be crafted gear. they said the BEST gear will be crafted gear. all other sources of gear wont give you the best possible gear
Or are you just making assumptions, stating them and hoping I don't actually know what I am talking about?
Says crafted gear will be best in slot, not the only gear available.
Hi, you're new here, so I'll be gentle.
Go to the page you just linked, and read the second line of text on said page.
You may not that it is the text I quoted in the post above yours.
This isn't correct is it, best in slot gear will be crafted but there will be other gear available, not all of it will be crafted like you suggested.
The quote that I wrote above from the page you linked is that anything that you want to bring into existence in the world is going to be built by players: Whether that is Ships, Siege engines, Weapons, Armor, etc.
The page does also say the best gear in the game is crafted.
That is a different - non contradictory - statement. It is possible that all gear in the game can be crafted, and that the best gear in the game can be crafted, thus both statements are true. Keep in mind, each of these statements is not necessarily made with the other statements in mind. In most cases they are stated as answers to questions. In this case, the comment about top end gear was in relation to a question about top end gear - so obviously the answer specified top end gear.
As such, unless and until Intrepid says anything to the contrary, our assumption should be that all gear (or close to all gear) in Ashes is crafted.
If you go back through the thread and look at the reason this became a point of discussion, you will very quickly see that it is people making rediculous arguments to defend a thing they like as not being blatantly bad game design, as the only way they can say it is not bad game design is if crafted gear isn't the primary means of getting gear for some level ranges.
The fact we've seen weapon drops in loot tables from Tumok demonstrates gear will be available from other sources.
It appears that they've always wanted crafting to be where you get your best in slot gear from.