and I have played games with gear acquisition slower than this and they feel generally unrewarding.
Were they unrewarding because the content was too easy regardless of the gear or for some other reason?
Cause, while you could fight mobs in low tier gear, when you got an upgrade in L2 you felt amazing. It was usually the result of weeks of hardcore grinding and you'd feel the difference pretty much immediately. Especially when it came to weapons.
L2's stages of progression were separated by ~5-6lvls, with gear tier steps at lvl20/40/52/61/76. The 61-76 was obviously the longest step and didn't really have internal progression, but that was mainly because gear at both ends was fairly difficult to acquire and gear from 61 would be then enchanted to make the farming of 76 gear faster (relatively speaking). Most of the time you'd be lagging behind the tier by a few lvls from the one that allows you to use that tier of gear.
and I have played games with gear acquisition slower than this and they feel generally unrewarding.
Were they unrewarding because the content was too easy regardless of the gear or for some other reason?
Cause, while you could fight mobs in low tier gear, when you got an upgrade in L2 you felt amazing. It was usually the result of weeks of hardcore grinding and you'd feel the difference pretty much immediately. Especially when it came to weapons.
L2's stages of progression were separated by ~5-6lvls, with gear tier steps at lvl20/40/52/61/76. The 61-76 was obviously the longest step and didn't really have internal progression, but that was mainly because gear at both ends was fairly difficult to acquire and gear from 61 would be then enchanted to make the farming of 76 gear faster (relatively speaking). Most of the time you'd be lagging behind the tier by a few lvls from the one that allows you to use that tier of gear.
The speed at which players experience progression as a positive is almost a mathematical function. It's pretty annoying (to me personally) in design because I'm on the 'long' end and I constantly have to correct it for players.
Imagine doing it in a card game where you have to make it so that people can 'grasp that they've gotten better' while still having all the same card options, and you have the approximate effect that very slow gearing has. It's a 'discovery' or 'skill advancement' loop. You can do a lot of stuff to make it exist even in games where all tools are available immediately, but you're still trying to hit the spot for the core player.
The more simplistic the game, the faster you have to do it.
and I have played games with gear acquisition slower than this and they feel generally unrewarding.
Were they unrewarding because the content was too easy regardless of the gear or for some other reason?
It was more that gear became expected.
The advantage to new gear every level is that it is easier to very finely tune your leveling content. If there are large gaps, you kind of can't as you don't know what strength your players will be at. Not knocking the game at all, but it seems to me that this isn't something the L2 develoeprs even considered - tight PvE experiences are nto what the game was about.
The downside is that it just makes for a worse experience.
This is kind of why 8-ish levels feels about right to me (though this does depend on the leveling speed). It is close enough together that developers have a good idea of how strong players will be for any content piece, making it much easier to tune, but slow enough that each upgrade still has the potential to feel earned.
The more simplistic the game, the faster you have to do it.
This has some real bad implications for the games Noaani has played, unless I completely misunderstood what you said
Not necessarily? We're talking about the leveling process, not so?
Also remember this isn't about a 'real' thing at all. It's almost entirely a manipulation of a psychology thing. As a gamer, you can fight it, but as a designer, you don't. And as a result of that, gamers shouldn't have to.
If a designer can't manage to produce the illusions to make the game feel good, they need experience. If they can do it and turn those illusions into real gameplay, then they're probably quite experienced.
I guess this might not make a lot of sense directly to someone who doesn't study this a lot?
Ashes implies that it will be very very light on illusions, so that's partially why I hope they have deep understanding of how to push all the buttons in people's minds through real gameplay.
I would suggest that getting 2 item upgrades per level is actually quite slow gearing up.
EQ2's leveling was quite slow. Not Korean slow, but slow for a western game.
It took so long to level in EQ2, that when the first expansion came out a year later, it wasn't actually a given that people were at the level cap yet.
I would suggest that getting 2 item upgrades per level is actually quite slow gearing up.
EQ2's leveling was quite slow. Not Korean slow, but slow for a western game.
It took so long to level in EQ2, that when the first expansion came out a year later, it wasn't actually a given that people were at the level cap yet.
Yeah, I guess I'm just too used to the truly slow paces of old L2 and the likes.
Btw, in L2 you wouldn't even need to enchant your stuff to keep fighting mobs at way higher lvls in gear from the lower lvls. So I'd be fine with gearing taking way more time than "usual".
Also, dunno if the version I'm playing is some new shit with catchup mechanics implemented and all that stuff, but Tera fucking showers you with gear on every damn lvl. AND you shoot through lvls like there's no tomorrow. I really hope this was just added in later updates of the game. I bring it up as an example of "another korean mmo".
tera is basically just follow main quests till you hit max level T_T then that's when the game starts. where are you playing? i made a lancer in a private server (i played lancer main in tera back then in 2012 or something). nostalgia heheh
we go back to the same thing. i could level from 30-50 with non crafted gear =_= and lvl 50 crafted gear is just a long term goal. we are going in circles now T_T
I am assuming that a level 10 harvests materials, processes and crafts for level 10 gear, and this applies to every level range from there up. In the absense of any specific comment, it is always best to assume the most basic possible means to fill the gap - this is the most basic means to fill this gap. We need to be able to fill gaps in what we have been told with the most basic of assumptions, if not we have very little we can actually discuss about this game - this really is a point I can't stress enough.
If you don't want to continue to argue the point, I don't really care. To be absolutely, brutally honest, you don't actually have a point to argue here - your entire "point" is that we don't know literally every detail around the thing so shouldn't be calling it bad game design - yet my point is based on us not knowing every little detail around the thing but what we do know results in bad game design.
and even if you were right, intrepid logically not gonna let us level from level 30 to 50 without gear upgrades, assuming monsters progress (too much) in difficulty (its still possible if the gear you get at 30 is not far off in strength from the gear you get at 50, you could do something like this in lineage 2 and eventually upgrade when you had the means, and this makes sense since steven said gear is just 30-40% of a character's power, so the rest 60-70% comes from sources other than gear), then players will acquire gear by other means. this is logical
Do you not play Korean games other than L2, btw?
I believe L2 started that standard of 'Enhancing' gear that was then absorbed by other games, but surely you know that it isn't actually that strange for someone's experience with MMORPGs to be 'yeah I bought this armor at level 20 and just threw enhancing items into it until it got to max strength and now it's my endgame armor until I beat a World Boss'.
I don't have any reason to be confident that Intrepid will not see this as a valid option for the first wave of settlers.
i have played a few korean mmorpg, and chinese and western. korean are my faves, chinese are my least fave.
ragnarok was the same btw, and forsaken world as well (chinese). people are just used to 1 thing because they have only played the top 5 most poplar mmorpg, so they think anything that isnt there (and they are all somewhat clones) is bad or not acceptable .-.
but yeah you are right, you can get a low level armor and overenchant it, and im sure intrepid will do something like this, since 80-90% of everything else is l2 (which is why i bring l2 so much, no point on bringing wow or ff, etc if this game is 80%-90% L2, not other games, not even ragnarok or bdo, which are korean mmorpg, thats why its unfair to compare it to other games sometimes). you dont always have to get to the next tier up levels then get the next tier of items lol
I'm not sure why you said what you said then.
But instead of starting another 'argument' I'll pivot.
If Ashes worked like BDO and that's why Processing in Nodes can stop at level 30 processing, do you have an opinion on that implementation? Like, do you like or dislike it on principle relative to what Ashes is?
Feel free to also explain why you consider it logical that they wouldn't do it, if that's your opinion.
I'd start a Splinter Topic for this but I really really don't think that one would go well, and I don't expect it to get any traction either way at this point. This seems like a reasonable thread to continue this one in though since it's philosophically relevant to the point of the thread.
Could others who wish to continue the Standard Clash please reframe too? Might as well get something out of the Clash by discussing a new point of mismatched priors.
Well, opinions don't matter too much. I can't tell you if what they are doing is right or wrong. I can't say anything about how they are implementing it. in fact, no one can, because we haven't seen it yet. we don't know what gear progression looks like.
But to try and give you a better answer, taking everything I remember they have said into consideration, which is:
processing won't be the only way to acquire gear.
you can get to max level in less than 2 months playing 4-6 hours a day.
adventurer level isn't tied up to artisan level
you can only get a fh at level 50 (although afaik this was a recent change, so other things mentioned here might change, but they haven't yet. if they do, then I will re-elaborate based on that)
mastering an artisan processing will require lots of effort and time(which could be more than 2 months, who knows? also, we don't know how long it will take to level processing or artisan skills really to tier 3 and we don't know if those 2 months to get from 1-50 require you to level an artisan profession)
it makes sense that you are able to progress to level 50 without needing to be a master processor first or acquire things from master processors since there won't be master processors until there are freeholds, and there won't be freeholds until there are level 50 players.
Possibilities are as follows:
you can craft gear that will help you from level 1-50 without needing to become a master processor (just t3 processing is enough) and this will take less than 2 months, playing 4-6 hours a day.
you can get gear from sources that aren't artisan related to go from level 1 (or 30) to 50, and this will take less than 2 months playing 4-6 hours a day.
you can simply level from 30 to 50 without upgrading your gear (maybe upgrading or over enchanting will make it faster or easier for sure), and you will hit level 50 in less than 2 months, playing 4-6 hours a day.
you are producing 100 carrots a day and selling 50 to 50 people and the other 50 spoil and you have to throw them away.. then 50 immigrants come to your country and buy carrots, now you are selling all 100 carrots.
then next day another 50 immigrants come to your country, you cant magically produce 150 carrots, you will still be producing 100 and people have to wait in line for the carrots. maybe the carrots price will go up, so some people wont be able to afford the carrots, maybe some of the original 50, so they will buy eggplants. you are still selling your 100 carrots, but you cant make more than 100. thats what i meant by produce things infinetely. another 100 people come to your country, so i decide to sell carrots. i make 50 carrots a day, so there are still people without carrots. if someone else comes and makes 500 carrots a day now we have to compete for customers instead of customers competing for carrots and some carrots will be wasted. in a mmorpg my carrots are not different than yours, unlike in real life, where my carrots might be better than yours.
Gatherers who are more advanced in their artisan tree will unlock higher level harvesting tools that have a greater chance of collecting higher quality resources or proccing a greater quantity.
My carrots may indeed be better than your carrots.
we go back to the same thing. i could level from 30-50 with non crafted gear =_= and lvl 50 crafted gear is just a long term goal. we are going in circles now T_T
I am assuming that a level 10 harvests materials, processes and crafts for level 10 gear, and this applies to every level range from there up. In the absense of any specific comment, it is always best to assume the most basic possible means to fill the gap - this is the most basic means to fill this gap. We need to be able to fill gaps in what we have been told with the most basic of assumptions, if not we have very little we can actually discuss about this game - this really is a point I can't stress enough.
If you don't want to continue to argue the point, I don't really care. To be absolutely, brutally honest, you don't actually have a point to argue here - your entire "point" is that we don't know literally every detail around the thing so shouldn't be calling it bad game design - yet my point is based on us not knowing every little detail around the thing but what we do know results in bad game design.
and even if you were right, intrepid logically not gonna let us level from level 30 to 50 without gear upgrades, assuming monsters progress (too much) in difficulty (its still possible if the gear you get at 30 is not far off in strength from the gear you get at 50, you could do something like this in lineage 2 and eventually upgrade when you had the means, and this makes sense since steven said gear is just 30-40% of a character's power, so the rest 60-70% comes from sources other than gear), then players will acquire gear by other means. this is logical
Do you not play Korean games other than L2, btw?
I believe L2 started that standard of 'Enhancing' gear that was then absorbed by other games, but surely you know that it isn't actually that strange for someone's experience with MMORPGs to be 'yeah I bought this armor at level 20 and just threw enhancing items into it until it got to max strength and now it's my endgame armor until I beat a World Boss'.
I don't have any reason to be confident that Intrepid will not see this as a valid option for the first wave of settlers.
i have played a few korean mmorpg, and chinese and western. korean are my faves, chinese are my least fave.
ragnarok was the same btw, and forsaken world as well (chinese). people are just used to 1 thing because they have only played the top 5 most poplar mmorpg, so they think anything that isnt there (and they are all somewhat clones) is bad or not acceptable .-.
but yeah you are right, you can get a low level armor and overenchant it, and im sure intrepid will do something like this, since 80-90% of everything else is l2 (which is why i bring l2 so much, no point on bringing wow or ff, etc if this game is 80%-90% L2, not other games, not even ragnarok or bdo, which are korean mmorpg, thats why its unfair to compare it to other games sometimes). you dont always have to get to the next tier up levels then get the next tier of items lol
I'm not sure why you said what you said then.
But instead of starting another 'argument' I'll pivot.
If Ashes worked like BDO and that's why Processing in Nodes can stop at level 30 processing, do you have an opinion on that implementation? Like, do you like or dislike it on principle relative to what Ashes is?
Feel free to also explain why you consider it logical that they wouldn't do it, if that's your opinion.
I'd start a Splinter Topic for this but I really really don't think that one would go well, and I don't expect it to get any traction either way at this point. This seems like a reasonable thread to continue this one in though since it's philosophically relevant to the point of the thread.
Could others who wish to continue the Standard Clash please reframe too? Might as well get something out of the Clash by discussing a new point of mismatched priors.
Well, opinions don't matter too much. I can't tell you if what they are doing is right or wrong. I can't say anything about how they are implementing it. in fact, no one can, because we haven't seen it yet. we don't know what gear progression looks like.
But to try and give you a better answer, taking everything I remember they have said into consideration, which is:
processing won't be the only way to acquire gear.
you can get to max level in less than 2 months playing 4-6 hours a day.
adventurer level isn't tied up to artisan level
you can only get a fh at level 50 (although afaik this was a recent change, so other things mentioned here might change, but they haven't yet. if they do, then I will re-elaborate based on that)
mastering an artisan processing will require lots of effort and time(which could be more than 2 months, who knows? also, we don't know how long it will take to level processing or artisan skills really to tier 3 and we don't know if those 2 months to get from 1-50 require you to level an artisan profession)
it makes sense that you are able to progress to level 50 without needing to be a master processor first or acquire things from master processors since there won't be master processors until there are freeholds, and there won't be freeholds until there are level 50 players.
Possibilities are as follows:
you can craft gear that will help you from level 1-50 without needing to become a master processor (just t3 processing is enough) and this will take less than 2 months, playing 4-6 hours a day.
you can get gear from sources that aren't artisan related to go from level 1 (or 30) to 50, and this will take less than 2 months playing 4-6 hours a day.
you can simply level from 30 to 50 without upgrading your gear (maybe upgrading or over enchanting will make it faster or easier for sure), and you will hit level 50 in less than 2 months, playing 4-6 hours a day.
I think the most likely system for now is that we either get enough gear from other sources on higher levels similar how the latest levels in WoW usually were (because it was easier to farm the mats to level your artisan level when the mobs in those zones no longer posed a danger to you) or we will see a quality cap on artisan proficiency rather than a level cap. Less likely though possible would be that items themselves can be "levelled" so that a journeyman coat crafted at lv 30 will stay viable for longer - though this would give the "first wave" of players an entirely different gaming experience from everyone else at a later point in time, not sure if thats the intent.
I'd put my money on the "gear cap" thesis for release.
Comments
Cause, while you could fight mobs in low tier gear, when you got an upgrade in L2 you felt amazing. It was usually the result of weeks of hardcore grinding and you'd feel the difference pretty much immediately. Especially when it came to weapons.
L2's stages of progression were separated by ~5-6lvls, with gear tier steps at lvl20/40/52/61/76. The 61-76 was obviously the longest step and didn't really have internal progression, but that was mainly because gear at both ends was fairly difficult to acquire and gear from 61 would be then enchanted to make the farming of 76 gear faster (relatively speaking). Most of the time you'd be lagging behind the tier by a few lvls from the one that allows you to use that tier of gear.
The speed at which players experience progression as a positive is almost a mathematical function. It's pretty annoying (to me personally) in design because I'm on the 'long' end and I constantly have to correct it for players.
Imagine doing it in a card game where you have to make it so that people can 'grasp that they've gotten better' while still having all the same card options, and you have the approximate effect that very slow gearing has. It's a 'discovery' or 'skill advancement' loop. You can do a lot of stuff to make it exist even in games where all tools are available immediately, but you're still trying to hit the spot for the core player.
The more simplistic the game, the faster you have to do it.
The advantage to new gear every level is that it is easier to very finely tune your leveling content. If there are large gaps, you kind of can't as you don't know what strength your players will be at. Not knocking the game at all, but it seems to me that this isn't something the L2 develoeprs even considered - tight PvE experiences are nto what the game was about.
The downside is that it just makes for a worse experience.
This is kind of why 8-ish levels feels about right to me (though this does depend on the leveling speed). It is close enough together that developers have a good idea of how strong players will be for any content piece, making it much easier to tune, but slow enough that each upgrade still has the potential to feel earned.
Not necessarily? We're talking about the leveling process, not so?
Also remember this isn't about a 'real' thing at all. It's almost entirely a manipulation of a psychology thing. As a gamer, you can fight it, but as a designer, you don't. And as a result of that, gamers shouldn't have to.
If a designer can't manage to produce the illusions to make the game feel good, they need experience. If they can do it and turn those illusions into real gameplay, then they're probably quite experienced.
I guess this might not make a lot of sense directly to someone who doesn't study this a lot?
Ashes implies that it will be very very light on illusions, so that's partially why I hope they have deep understanding of how to push all the buttons in people's minds through real gameplay.
- Noaani prefers more frequent up-gearing
- iirc EQ2 had exactly that
- you say that the more simplistic a game is - the faster its gearing (which represents the feeling of progression) will be
- hence, EQ2 is simplistic, which is funny to me
But I think I just misunderstood your last sentence in that comment, so my thinking was wrong.EQ2's leveling was quite slow. Not Korean slow, but slow for a western game.
It took so long to level in EQ2, that when the first expansion came out a year later, it wasn't actually a given that people were at the level cap yet.
tera is basically just follow main quests till you hit max level T_T then that's when the game starts. where are you playing? i made a lancer in a private server (i played lancer main in tera back then in 2012 or something). nostalgia heheh
Well, opinions don't matter too much. I can't tell you if what they are doing is right or wrong. I can't say anything about how they are implementing it. in fact, no one can, because we haven't seen it yet. we don't know what gear progression looks like.
But to try and give you a better answer, taking everything I remember they have said into consideration, which is:
Possibilities are as follows:
Noaani, you have a sense of humor? what? lets go.
I think the most likely system for now is that we either get enough gear from other sources on higher levels similar how the latest levels in WoW usually were (because it was easier to farm the mats to level your artisan level when the mobs in those zones no longer posed a danger to you) or we will see a quality cap on artisan proficiency rather than a level cap. Less likely though possible would be that items themselves can be "levelled" so that a journeyman coat crafted at lv 30 will stay viable for longer - though this would give the "first wave" of players an entirely different gaming experience from everyone else at a later point in time, not sure if thats the intent.
I'd put my money on the "gear cap" thesis for release.
im playing there too T_T lmao but im low level, im playing very casually