I also wonder whether spell effects should affect the skin of the target rather than having big, explosive effects. That would then play into the material of those skins for a greater variety of effects. Fire spells on ice elementals, for example.
Might also cause players to not have 100% knowledge of the area of an opponent and intensity might affect area.
So rather than obscuring the target or area, unless intended, the effects may actually help rather than hinder other players (allies) without serving as a tell to opponents in PVP. Now for the nuke spells, go for it.
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
So far it's an improvement over the last Cleric showcase but it still needs work. It's at a fairly good state but like a few others here, I have a lot of comments. I like that you're trying different types of heals and adding variety there. Seems more interesting at least.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I'm used to abilities that have specific uses. I'm ok with abilities that have versatility but it can be hard to make it so those abilities have real choices and not one that's clearly the best and other choices that don't have much use. A few of your abilities fall into the latter category.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I don't like held abilities. It doesn't feel fun to play but more than that, it forces you to put more pressure with your fingers on the keybind, and doing so repeatedly over a long period of time with a skill that's meant to be spammed can cause finger/hand discomfort. It's just not practical.
Beyond that, a good held ability needs to at least a) allow me to press it lightly and not require firm holding of my keybind to prevent it from going off early, and b) some delination of tiers of the ability, either via several charges such as charge levels 1, 2, 3 or lines on the single charge bar that you had here - both choices are designed to show me how much healing I'm getting so I can decide when to let it up (as opposed to now where it looks like the player has to just guess based on experience - it would be better to more clearly indicate how much we're getting and when).
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I'm not sure how I feel about this. At the very least I'm not excited about it. It rewards poor gameplay on the part of the healer. In addition, this is a small heal that's barely bigger than Mend, so the heal amount is already too low. The small, efficient maintenance heal shouldn't be almost equal to the emergency instant heal.
But beyond that why reward poor healers with a near spammable instant heal that can be used during any cast? It's an easy mode button. You should be rewarding good decision making and skilled gameplay. Skilled healing requires a lot of good decision making and the ability to pay attention to everything that's going on around them and adjust their choices moment to moment to maximize gameplay and keep people alive. It's dynamic. This removes that. Right now I see it as both a heal that's too small but an idea that's too easy. Either way it's a lose-lose to me.
In general I don't think I've seen a heal that can be used during other casts in other games so this doesn't feel necessary to me at all. I have seen in other games, a longer CD instant cast heal that heals for much more and that is fine as it serves as a real "Oh Shit" button.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Cleric in Aion was a great class, although perhaps had too many abilities. The TERA Priest was really fun as well. I'd say WoW Priest and Paladin are decent but both feel like they're missing something. Aion's Cleric was a great all around healer that felt like it had all the tools I'd need. And TERA was my absolute favorite action combat healer. Both really well designed for the types of combat they have.
A few other thoughts about skills in particular:
Mend and Flash Cure are too similar in heal amount. Mend also looks awkward and unfun to use. I like the idea of an efficient, spammable heal but there's something weird about this one - maybe the animation and the charges/CD make it seem off. Also I don't like the CD showing up on the UI when I still have charges left.
Resplendent Beam seems to heal the same single target as it does multi which seems weird to me. So the tank is getting the same amount of HP if I only heal him vs if I heal everyone. Obviously I get more out of my mana if I heal all so maybe that's what it's trying to accomplish? Other than that, this is an ok group heal. I would say the total heal amount per player is a bit too low, though.
Communal Restoration - the effect duration is way too low - the HoT and Temp HP should both last longer if they're going to be such small amounts. I do think the amount for at least the HoT is ok if it's a long term maintenance heal. But again the effect needs to last much longer. The Temp HP should probably be larger as well as lasting longer otherwise the small amount of it now seems like it'd be used up too quickly and defeat the purpose entirely.
Judgement - This seems fairly good unless I'm missing something. The heal portion seems slightly faster and larger than Deliverance except it has a CD? So far so good and it having a damage portion is nice as well for when I don't need the heal.
Deliverance - I know I touched on this above but I'd also like to add that the full charge seems too long a cast time.
Soothing Glow - same as the other HoT, the duration on this seems a bit too low? HoTs need to generally be longer duration effects to really be worth using.
Bless Weapon - I like the idea that I can get mana back for auto attacking and potentially add more damage than just my weapon damage.
Consecrating Wave - really cool ability. I wouldn't call it a "cone" though. If we're being honest it's a massive 180 degree arc. Way, way too big. For "action" abilities to be fun and not brainless, they need limits. TERA's Priest healer is a great example of that. All the AoEs worth using were tiny 5m circle AoEs (with player collision this meant you could only fit a few players in it). And either they had a long CD if ranged targeted AoE, or forced the cloth healer into melee range, and both skills forced the healer to choose who to heal with it, when they can safely use them, etc. It wasn't as easy as press button, heal everyone safely from afar, then rinse/repeat seconds later. That's super unfun (and why most action combat healing games other than TERA are super boring).
Either way I'm not sure what they meant by wanting to split the effect, but I don't want it to end up being something where you are punishing players for using action abilities, nor punishing players for good positioning (healer and group). If it's going to be like Judgement where all the seemingly well designed skills are split power between damaging and healing, I have to ask what's the point then. Pick one or the other if you're going to water down a skills power so it can do "both". Instead I feel like the action abilities should require more skill to use (smaller effect, and other decisions/risks associated as mentioned) and then also heal for more than their tab multi-target equivalents).
This is overall a good idea for a skill, though.
Divine Flare - not exciting because GtAoEs are always boring and not super hard to use, but an ok actiony group heal. I might suggest instead of GtAoE, play with making it some other type of AoE? TERA had some creative AoE ideas that were fun, skillful, but not hard to place/"aim". TERA had a 5m circle direct heal AoE at the Priest's feet as well as another 5m circle fixed at 10m range in front of her that was a HoT that stuck on the ground adding the HoT effect to anyone who stepped inside, along with mana regen. They also had some projectile abilities that would arc down at a fixed location - a fireball that fell 10m away leaving a 3m AoE on the ground or a rain of arrows landing in a circle 15m away, etc. These are more creative and interesting ways to make an AoE heal (or damage or any other effect) compared to GtAoEs.
For context, max range in TERA was about 20-22m, so 10m was a mid range ability. And the reticle had the range of whatever you were mousing over, which helped to judge distance in addition to experience.
As with Consecrating Wave, this circle is too big and my thoughts about tab vs action multi target heals applies here as well. Delayed cast I'm on the fence about. As with Flash Cure, seems to reward poor gameplay. If I the healer position it poorly, or my teammates can't learn how to stack, then we should suffer for it (Risk vs reward!). Players will learn how to maximize it. Should just be instant cast (TERA Priest, a cloth caster, had a 5m AoE fixed location at their feet that was instant cast but was a massive direct AoE heal - this rewarded good gameplay on the part of both me the healer and my party with appropriate risk for it.) Also as with Resplendent Beam, the heal amount is too low.
Barrier - why am I sacrificing my health for this? Doesn't seem like a tradeoff that makes sense. Beyond that, as with the temp HP shields, this barrier is way too low and will be used up quickly. It's also too low when you consider I'm giving up 25% HP for it. I like the idea of a Barrier, but this needs a rework.
Chains of Restraint - I like the idea of an AoE CC with extra damage.
Defiant Light/Divine Infusion - seems like nice CDs.
Healing Touch - I like this also for those who want to play in melee, they get rewarded with a big instant heal. Should be a templated action ability though.
Wings - also neat.
Smite - why not spammable? We need a spammable direct damage ability.
Condemn - ranged stun is a nice idea but it's on a way too long CD and has a cast time for something that only lasts 3 seconds? Seems a bit underpowered. Get rid of cast time if it's only going to last 3 seconds and lower the CD. 20 seconds means I can't use it too often. Could reduce the duration to 1 sec and make it instant and lower the CD and then it would serve as a nice interrupt. Or you could keep the 20 sec CD and make it last longer so it's a sleep instead of a stun. Could also turn it into a short duration KD or KB instead of stun so maybe it has potential as a defensive skill (not that stun doesn't). But right now it has this weird middle ground and it needs to fill one niche or the other. I like CC for Cleric, but this one needs more thought.
Edit: Someone in another thread pointed out you had mentioned a long time ago that hard CC would be action and soft would be tab. I would like to see this and all other CC on all archetypes reworked with that in mind. Either make it action with some sort of mid range line/cone type shape, or keep it tab and maybe make it a 70% slow or something.
There are other things I feel are missing:
I'd expect a single target (spammable) and hopefully also AoE cleanse that cleanses a variety of debuff, DoT, and CC effects on my targets.
I need also a spammable single target damage ability at least. And hopefully more AoE damage than just the Chains?
I'd also love to see more damage reduction type skills. The barrier and temp HP ideas are nice, but don't feel impactful enough.
I'd also love some sort of buffs for my party or other utility abilities. Right now it feels like the kit has way too many heals, and the heals have a lot of overlap with one another. I want a more interesting and well-rounded toolkit.
I'd also like to see a ranged action-style single target heal as well. You have mid-long range AoE action abilities. I think Healing Touch has the potential to be turned into an action templated ability for melee range single target action (6m range cone or rectangle?). If we're being honest, there's no reason for a melee ability to be targeted. But we also need a ranged single target action heal ability as well and given the fact that you have too many overlapping heals already, I think you can fix that issue and add a single target action heal in and kill two birds with one stone.
I know aim based projectiles like TERA did are likely too hard to accomplish (but we would all love if you can do it like TERA did! But given how extremely poorly New World did that style of heal, and even more poorly ESO did with their single target heals - I'm ok with it not existing here if that's how it has to be). So I will point you in the direction of Wildstar. It's a doable middle ground that works with your combat system. They had long line heals on Esper that served as ranged "single target" (but realistically you'd hit maybe 2-3 but that's ok - TERA's "single target" heals worked the same way). Wildstar also had some long thin cones on Spellslinger. Play with these ideas so players who want to do action instead of tab have a few choices. I will play either tab or action - whatever feels best. But I do think offering players real choices is important.
Also I do want to say I like the animations of the skills so far. Not only do they look good but they're useful. They show me what skill is being used, on whom, where it's hitting, etc. It gives me real information about what's going on in combat and that's important. Whereas in some games animations are just useless filler.
Edit: It was mentioned on Twitter that mana management will be an important skill for healers to master. Depending on the degree to which this is an issue, it may balance out some of the tab styled abilities that seem OP above.
Slept on and edited my original post for clarity. Got time to review the video posted now for some more detail oriented feedback. Going to add additional thoughts here that came to mind upon review.
I really like the idea of the cleric resource (golden bar) provides a choice between divine infusion or not spending it and improving cleric efficacy but what I want to know is how... does it increase throughput? mana cost of spells? cooldown reduction? All of the above? In the stream it was mentioned but not specified. I just wanted to know more because on the face of it I love, love, love this choice of use. So happy about this. Please keep this.
Flash Cure, as mentioned in my previous post, I'd like to see the recharge time lengthen to allow for more significant throughput increase. I would also like to see the cooldown of the recharge impacted either by a specific heal or two that requires skill expression like charge time (think Deliverance) or recharge could be impacted just by healing and damage generally.
Communal Restoration really jumps out to me as having a lot of potential to be an amazing addition to the cleric's kit but needs some work to become that. I think all forms of throughput (temp health, initial heal, and hot) need a significant boost for this to be possible. This spell is a prime candidate of cast time/held spell and some of the throughput can be built into the cast time build up. I would add that if you complete the cast all the way to the end that it reduces the mana cost of the spell. I would keep it a mana costly spell instead of it having charges. I see it as being the deliverance of aoe spells if these type of changes are made where it is an effective almost essential spell that casting it at the right time makes a huge impact. When used and there are less recipients than a full party (some are dead or you're just not in a full party) have the throughputs increased too.
I like that smite crits on condemned targets. I would like for smite's burning stacks on a target to increase the duration of condemn stun duration.
On spell visuals, I like the gold theme used but on the lens flare type effects I would like to see the color themes used to be less red/blue and more prismatic or pearlescent. Perhaps different sub Archetypes impact that later on but if I'm a High Priest or Scryer that color combo feels too martial/material to me and not ethereal enough in the way that a prismatic or pearlescent would.
Communal Restoration really jumps out to me as having a lot of potential to be an amazing addition to the cleric's kit but needs some work to become that. I think all forms of throughput (temp health, initial heal, and hot) need a significant boost for this to be possible. This spell is a prime candidate of cast time/held spell and some of the throughput can be built into the cast time build up. I would add that if you complete the cast all the way to the end that it reduces the mana cost of the spell. I would keep it a mana costly spell and not charge based. I see it as being the deliverance of aoe spells if these type of changes are made where it is an effective almost essential spell that casting it at the right time makes a huge impact. When used and there are less recipients than a full party (some are dead or you're just not in a full party) have the throughputs increased too.
Most people were complaining a while back about the overuse of the AoE heal style gameplay seen in things like Neverwinter, where you basically just stack a bunch of people into one area and have the healers stand in one spot and spam their big AoE heal at every opportunity with anything else inbetween.
The more powerful the heal, the more effective this playstyle becomes, so I ask, what is your opinion on this playstyle especially in larger group content, if anything?
Communal Restoration really jumps out to me as having a lot of potential to be an amazing addition to the cleric's kit but needs some work to become that. I think all forms of throughput (temp health, initial heal, and hot) need a significant boost for this to be possible. This spell is a prime candidate of cast time/held spell and some of the throughput can be built into the cast time build up. I would add that if you complete the cast all the way to the end that it reduces the mana cost of the spell. I would keep it a mana costly spell and not charge based. I see it as being the deliverance of aoe spells if these type of changes are made where it is an effective almost essential spell that casting it at the right time makes a huge impact. When used and there are less recipients than a full party (some are dead or you're just not in a full party) have the throughputs increased too.
Most people were complaining a while back about the overuse of the AoE heal style gameplay seen in things like Neverwinter, where you basically just stack a bunch of people into one area and have the healers stand in one spot and spam their big AoE heal at every opportunity with anything else inbetween.
The more powerful the heal, the more effective this playstyle becomes, so I ask, what is your opinion on this playstyle especially in larger group content, if anything?
You need to put limitations on things to prevent this. Ashes is already taking an important step in having player collision, so you can't have a large amount of players in one spot. That helps. Further you make it so powerful AoEs have limitations, such as massive mana cost or large CD so they're not able to be used too often, or you make it a small AoE size so that it can't hit a ton of players (with player collision). TERA handled this well, so that your AoEs really felt impactful but you were mostly only spamming your "single target" lock on heal (really it hit 2-3 targets). Outside of that you used your AoE heals situationally as needed, and not only did it require thought (and the lack of heal spam left time for other types of abilities), but it also meant your team had to learn how to position in order to get the best heals. There's other things they can do as well to promote skill over AoE spam. It's certainly doable.
The more powerful the heal, the more effective this playstyle becomes, so I ask, what is your opinion on this playstyle especially in larger group content, if anything?
Hello Azherae. Thank you, I really appreciate the question!
For me, this is answered by some of the details I drew from re-watching the video. Communal Renewal took around 15-20% mana on cast. I feel like that hefty mana cost will (with the cast time mechanic I suggested) promote a thoughtful and well timed cast and makes spamming a short lived endeavor. Also, this spell is limited to the party itself per the discussion when they introduced it iirc.
I prefer to have a variety of tools with viability of each and it being more a question of when each tool is best to use.
In a lot of mmos with large scale conflicts you see aoe healing remain prevalent because interaction with the UI (especially while in a pvp or heavy npc enemy aoe formats) is cumbersome and leaves you vulnerable. It sounds like they're working on making it so we'll be able to access our targets quickly in a variety of ways which can be customized through our UI menu (mentioned during stream.)
The other issue in larger scale healing situations is that the design of aoe healing spells are able to be chained so cooldowns are relatively meaningless. If there's a way to chain aoe heals over and over again then it will be the meta - especially (again) in most pvp and any enemy npcs with strong aoe situations.
However, I noticed a lot of cds and charges on most aoe heals. This coupled with the philosophy Steven has for the game generally (choices matter) leads me to believe the talent trees will make you choose between which aoe and single target spells you have rather than get all of one kind eliminating that opportunity for a compelling choice of when and how to use your aoe. Just an inference on my part though. If that isn't the case in A2 I will definitely provide feedback that it promotes less engaging play.
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
I mained priest in Wow classic and wow the cleric here looks wild. It looks like it would be a ton of fun to play and even tho I plan to main mage in AoC if it ever comes out I would like to also play cleric. Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Versatility is great and helps make a character strong, give players decisions to make during combat, and it can just make it more fun to play and reduce the risk of gameplay getting boring. That being said classes do still need to have enough very simple but still strong abilities to have a basic bread and butter kit with more complex abilities surrounding it. How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I think there should be more than one but not many, they look cool but also a bit complicated and shouldnt be too major to a kit. abilities like the chain heal that might be a very commonly used ability during group fights with aoe but i just dont want a third of my kit to be held. How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Looks good What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
The kit gives alot of utility, a small instant cast heal to toss in randomly, the weapon buff that gives mana regen will likely make a meta of having healers swap out/take turns to recover mana, the HoT that can avoid a death might be too strong but thats relative to what other ultimate abilities look like. The cleric looks to have a ton of burst healing output, even if a real cleric wont have all these abilities it may make pvp really annoying for say a 2v2 where one has a cleric or even team fights since he can leap around both for safety and just to reposition for healing touch. I hate pvp tho so i dono.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
It might be too strong with too much burst. The skill cap looks quite high which might be annoying in groups but thats anyways a thing.
I don't like the fact that barrier takes health. I would rather see something with high risk and reward do this like healing touch. It would then lend to a melee healer having some self heal built in from the talent tree to accommodate routine use of that ability but still have it be somewhat risky.
I really liked the blessed weapon ability but it felt not very impactful in the demo. I'm hoping that utility is of more value post balancing passes.
I also liked the aoe placed/action spells not being too visually heavy so players could see it but not miss other key visuals on the ground. I'm sure for the players that did not cast the spell it might even see a more reduced visual but I like it thus far.
In regards to the cleric abilities and showcase as an experienced MMO player and mainly healer I would personally give my few recommendations and preferences. I like the direction is going but I am not a person who likes versatile abilities. Standard abilities that do 1 specific thing are always preferred. For balancing reasons most importantly and maintaining a good understanding of rotations. Abilities that are more versatile tend to add an extra layer of complexity that won't be attractive to the more casual players that are going to play the game. Sometimes less is better. Abilities that can be combined with others are more than welcome in the game. In a scenario where you use a HOT in a target and then another ability can utilize the HOT to do something more is a common practice.
Castable abilities are ok for the most part but are always better to not restrict your movement to use them. In some cases, if you are casting some very powerful abilities then it is normal to be mobilized during the casting. 2 routed abilities should be more than enough. In a scenario where you cast a HOT, sacrificing your mobility for healing over time then I wouldn't use it at all.
Cleric as a class sounds like something that can provide defense and a stable healing. Well done with the showcase. I am looking forward to seeing more.
Quality of Life suggestion: to use mantle/vault you should need to press the dodge/roll key while jumping mid-air
while I really like that Intrepid implemented mantle and I think it's great, I don't want it to activate automatically whenever I'm just trying to quickly jump over a fence or something, it's clunky if it's always on I'd rather if to activate it we had to keep pressing the roll key during a jump - that would feel a lot better and prevent situations that we wouldn't want to mantle
re Healing Touch ability:
it kind of feels like you would only use it in combination with Wings of Salvation effectively, so I have a few suggestions:
A ) combine the two abilities
B ) make Healing Touch stronger or more unique in order to justify getting close to danger
C ) do both A and B?
Ask yourself, why would you ever want to get close to the player you want to protect? for just another heal that could have been done with range?
Since Healing Touch is a melee only ability, there should be some reward for getting up close as a healer - eg. the ability should be extra strong, give extra damage reduction, apply a shield to both of you or something along those lines.
Additionally, I wish Healing Touch would have a different animation. As of now the arm is raised into the air right in the face of your friend that you want to heal. May I suggest pounding or visually enchanting the floor (or both) and healing anyone (or just the target) on the enchanted floor.
Last but not least, please do not tone down the visual effects. If anything, go a little crazier.
About the "mend" ability. The one that has an air time with a few charges. As I said in my other post this looks great and looks fun to use. But because it has that delayed effect because of air time it might work better as a HOT ability.
That is actually quite exactly what exists in warhammer onlines healing class called Zealot. There you throw a flask through the air and gives a hot effect to allies, super fun ability!
I didn't see too many hot effects in the preview and I just thought that would fit so good with the air time and charges. It could also be stackable to make you decide if you wanna spread out hots throughout your party or focus on keeping one person alive.
Just wanted to add my thought about that, thanks!
Edit: Why i bring Hots up is also because i really like preventative healing. Like HoTing everyone up in my party and putting on an absorb shield for example before you all run into combat, and keeping hots up on all your party members is fun.
Amazing showcase!
I usually dont play healers, but looking at this makes me want to play the class.
I think the abilities being multi purpose is great, it increases the skillceiling.
I do have some critisisms though:
One thing i feel might be annoying is having to hold down abilities. Holding a button while moving is not nice.
Maybe add a control scheme option to have it so that when you press an ability that can charge, it automatically starts charging, and if you tap it again it will release it at the current charge level. So basically double tap to insta cast, tap once to charge.
I think this also goes well with the class mechanic. You might have a lot of keybindings, having to hold for example shift + 2 and simultaniously press another bind to use your divine infusion sound very annoying. With the way i propose you can press them sequentially quickly. Tap your ability, then either tap again to release the ability at the current charge, or tap your divine infusion to insta complete the charge.
The class resource did however feel a little underwhelming. Its something that basically can increase your healing or damage throughput, but thats something id more associate with a bard buff. It just doesnt feel very unique, and i feel like if you didnt have it, the class wouldnt feel/play any different (i dont think steven used it a single time during the showcase, that speaks to the fact that it doesnt add much if anything).
Random idea i came up with for another class resource, i didnt put a lot of thought into this, and it probably has issues but il put it here anyways incase it can inspire something good:
Divine Infusion:
- Overtime you built up "infusion" points
- You get these points for doing healing / dmg
- max stack is 10
- If you press the infusion button, 1 stack is consumed
- An infusion lasts for say 10 seconds
- You can stack infusions(each would have their own 10 second timers)
- If you cast an ability while you have infusion stacks, you increase the heal / shield / hot
- Each stack would increase the heal / whatever by a flat amount
- You can make it so that certain abilities change what they do entirely if consumed with x infusions
- Using an infusion stack would also function like a selfheal (extra survivability for cleric in pvp)
I feel like something like this is applicable to classes other than the cleric, but i liked the idea. I think something like this is a bit more interesting than just having an "instant cast" button.
I liked the abilities with charges, and i liked that they were "off global cooldown". I do however think they need a seperate cooldown so you cant just insta spam all 4 charges of an ability. Maybe 1 second cooldown would be nice?
Even though I know the VFX are still a work in progress, i want to point out some (inconsistent) things that i noticed.
There are more instances where spells do generate a lightsource, and some dont. I dont know if this is done on purpose or not, but IMO the abilities that do NOT generate lightsources look miles better.
^ Here, when deliverance lands on the target, there is no lightsource to be seen anywhere around the character / the floor.
^ Here, when flash cure lands on the target, there is a huge light source emited that lights up the area around the target
^ Here aswell when the cleric lands their dmg ability, the entire area just lights up red, I think just a red beam without the whole casting light all around it would look so much cleaner
^ In this instances from the carphin showcase you can see that even basic attacks sometimes generate a lightsource when they land.
I think the abilities and attacks would look a lot better if none of them generated lightsources as shown in the screenshots. When there is multiple abilities happening and theres 80 people on screen, all these lightsources will just be totally blinding.
I know this might seem like nitpicking, but I still wanted to point it out.
Overall the showcase was very good. I cant wait to play this class in alpha2!
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
Pretty good overall ! I think the direction where you are going is right. The only thing i did not like for now was the new ressource with the spell to instant finish the cast. It has a lot of potential, but it's a little too simplistic, and maybe miss some other synergies within the kit itself.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Both ?
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Some, i thought the balance was good in the showcase.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Noice ! But it double down with the "Class ability" to shorten the cast time.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
As - To not be JUST a healing machine, to have something to do other than just stay there like a postsign and heal my a** out. Feeling usefull, Having Strategic choices to make; COMBOS !
With : Good timing and communication, having the right tools for the right moment.
Against : How to reduce his heals ? How to kill him ASAP ?
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
WoW : Shadow Priest
Rift : Justicar
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Overall pretty pleased, love the Shield were you sacrifice your life, often in raids / dungeons you just overhealing yourself so it's pretty neat to have an other ressources beside mana to use in thoses situations.
Liked the Melee heal too, cause it makes the player move on the battlefield and not just being a idle Healbot.
Just the Class abiility and the "Faith" meter seem a little simplistic for me right now, i think you can do something more exciting without reinventing the wheel. Like it can be used on instants too with a kisscool effect, or if you time the use just right some kisscool effect etc
Liked this a LOT more than the Tank and Mage archetypes.
Amazing job, I really liked the cleric archetype update. I think you guys are doing really well and are definitely going in the right direction here. I have faith that you will make some amazing archetypes and fun combat.
Versatility: I liked the versatility that many of the spells had. I'm all about adding depth and meaningful choices to the gameplay. Complexity is great and fun.
3rd ressource: It made me really happy to see the 3rd ressource for cleric and how you can utilize it with Divine Infusion.
Flash cure: I really liked flash cure and the mechanic to cast a few select spells while casting other spells.
Visuals: The artists are doing really well with both the world and the spells. Deliverance in particular I really liked the animation, the blurry effect and the sound of it.
Concerns:
I only have two concerns about the cleric archetype. Perhaps you already know or have touched upon this or perhaps it is still too early to say anything about it, but I'll just mention them anyway.
1. Concerned about the variety of playstyles for the cleric classes. This is THE healer archetype. Therefore, it has to cater to a lot of different people coming from various healer playstyles in other games. What we have seen so far is the typical holy healer backline cleric/priest that has some ranged heals (with well-thought out spells and added versatile mechanics). That is good. But a lot of people like other healer playstyles. I hope you have already planned for other playstyles either through skill trees or secondary archetypes.
As an example I hope to see a melee healer playstyle similar to holy Paladin in WoW right now. It is a reactive, fast-paced playstyle in which you manage the ressource holy power to maximize your healing output while balancing a higher amount of instant heals.
2. Concerned about thematic variety of the cleric classes. What you have shown so far is a "holy" healer theme. While the "holy"-like power does not come from the Gods, it still has the light and "holy" theme about it. That is good, I like that theme. But I also like a nature-based healer theme like a Druid. Especially coupled with a Py'Rai elf a nature-themed healer would be very cool. There are other healing-themes like elements and ki energy, that I find cool too.
At this point it is unclear to me how much a cleric player can change the theme of their spells through secondary archetype, racial augments, religious augments and skill trees. I really hope you can do a lot there as I think that the theme of a character is very important to many MMORPG players. Myself included.
Keep up the good work, I'm very excited for this game!
The stream was AWESOME. It was the first time I saw gameplay and thought to myself, “This is it, we’re on our way.”
I have little to no mmo experience but that gameplay felt natural and looked like a lot of fun. Got me really excited for the future of this game’s development.
The cleric animations were clean and felt very cohesive. Mend was definitely my favorite, you guys nailed the ‘simple heal’ animation and feel. I was skeptical of the VFX but they were pretty awesome. I have confidence the future class showcases will be held to the same standards you showed us with Cleric.
I’m sure this question has been asked a million times but how will the animations work with 2 handed weapons? Will it be the same animation with your character one handing for the animations duration or do you have plans for unique 2 handed animations?
Again, great stream. I’m so glad to be apart of this community and the development of Ashes. Looking forward to more!
I would like to see some abilities designed to save the Cleric from being focused in PvP or attracting the boss in PvE. A basic ability being point blank knockback for example, or a 'holy invulnerability' would work perhaps at the cost of resetting Conviction to 0. Or a reposition/evade emergency button.
I love bubbles/wards - I would like to see ones which absorb or reflect projectiles or certain types of magic.
It seems like the set of abilities has everything imaginable, stirred around and brewed nicely, so that just about any playstyle can be satisfied. And we haven't seen the other abilities or augments yet!
Need to see more situational abilities please. The kind you sometimes equip, other times not, other times you wish you had! Like a death knight high damage spike when under 30% health.
Solo play: Need to know if this is viable too - would hunting for pelts be slow and tedious for a cleric?
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
The class healing kit looks great. I think it's a bit light in the buff/debuff realm from the more classical support. If that's being covered by a secondary archetype, then no worries.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I love the options that come with each ability, and could do with even more control over the damage/heal cone. For example, if you are targeting a friendly inside the cone then the ability deals 50% more healing, but no damage. If you are targeting an enemy inside the cone, then it does 50% more damage but no heal. If you have no main target, then it does regular damage+heal
I am not a fan of having many many abilities on top of the usual block/dodge/potion/etc. So I'd rather see a charge up heal take the place of a small instant heal and a large long cast heal...and possibly the medium cast time heal too. Skill point allocation can cover which one you want to "specialize" in. For example, spending skill points for a bonus heal if fully charged would be specializing in a long cast heal.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
As long as they have an effect no matter when they are released, I think several would be good. I also would like to see channeled abilities that have a continuous effect and cost mana every second.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
It's great in an archetype that relies on long cast times. I think giving it charges, low effect and low cooldown makes it a bit to spammy, since you are casting it inside of another spell and you also have another way to reduce long casts. I'd prefer no charges, double the effect and double the cooldown.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
Playing Alpha 2 would excite me. The Cleric is just interesting
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Early WoW Druid was easily my favorite. This is more because of the slippery nature than the healing mechanics. But I also like a mix of HoT options alongside burst heals.
What I really like is a setup that allows a healer to slip from healing to DPS when the situation calls for it. Let the # of GCDs spent healing vs the # of GCDs spent DPSing determine the heal/damage ratio. To do this don't have a choice of healing vs damage skill points, but rather have skill points that give a bonus to specific type of healing also give a bonus to a specific type of damage.
That said, beware lifetap heals (IE, heal for 30% of the damage you deal) as they're a balancing nightmare. Also, DPS clerics definitely should do less damage than DPS classes, because they always still have their heals.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
* Love the charge-to-friendly ability, but it felt a bit bare not having some kind of secondary effect. But I think this is a good place for ability-replacement. After you charge to someone, the ability button changes into another ability that gives the person you charged (something). Using that (something) lengthens the cooldown of charge
* Chain heal charges to full way to fast. It goes from healing one person to healing the max # of people in 1 second. IMO this should be 2 seconds. Also, I did not see if the mana cost went up with the number of people healed, but it should.
* Concerned about insta-cast ability giving too much burst. It needs a short 3-5s cooldown if it doesn't empty the radiance bar.
I'd like to say again how little I like having many cooldowns that do a similar things. If you give me an 8s cooldown medium heal and a 16s cooldown large heal, I *have to* put them both on my bar to be as effective as the next guy. However, if you make a heal so that it has 2 charges of medium heal on an 6s cooldown, then you have similar functionality of those 2 heals on one button.
Likewise if you have a single target HoT with no cooldown or with charges, there's no reason not to make it so that if the HoT is recast on someone who has the HoT, they get a secondary effect as well as refreshing the HoT
Ask yourself, why would you ever want to get close to the player you want to protect? for just another heal that could have been done with range?
My guess is there's going to be a build around melee clerics OR more for the martial sub-archetypes and your fellow ranged members taking damage nearby from another ranged source in the case you're more the traditional caster.
But I like the feedback you provided generally. Those are great questions to pose in response.
Also, since everyone else is mentioning it, I'm planning on playing a High Priest, Scryer, or some heavily support and healing build of a cleric. So this feedback is from someone with interest in playing the Cleric and has for decades played almost exclusively healers in mmos.
* How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
Compared to the original Cleric ability showcase this one excited me. The first showcase left me feeling that there was too much emphasis on offensive skills. The Cleric is looking like a top-tier healer, and that makes me happy!
* Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I prefer versatility. The skill that does damage OR heal is a good example.
* How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Since I'm assuming they can be interrupted, I feel 1/4 is a good ratio.
* How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I loved it. It adds more depth and an opportunity for the healer to sharpen their craft. Healing can be 2D, and abilities like this that are out of the norm and expand the skill ceiling is great.
* What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
For playing, it feels dynamic. I enjoy doing top notch healing while weaving in the best DPS I can. The abilities shown give the player that option.
* What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
In WoW I enjoyed a Holy (healing focused) and Disc (more utility focused) specced Priest.
* Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Concern: Some of the effects looked more Mage/Arcane-like rather than Divine. In the cone ability there was some blue, which reminded me of the Mage's lightning. There was some blue and red in some of the others, which brought to mind arcane sources rather than Divine.
Appreciate: The overall effects have been toned down quite a bit, and it looks soo much better! Good job!
The zone looked beautiful. I look forward to exploring it.
Communal Restoration really jumps out to me as having a lot of potential to be an amazing addition to the cleric's kit but needs some work to become that. I think all forms of throughput (temp health, initial heal, and hot) need a significant boost for this to be possible. This spell is a prime candidate of cast time/held spell and some of the throughput can be built into the cast time build up. I would add that if you complete the cast all the way to the end that it reduces the mana cost of the spell. I would keep it a mana costly spell and not charge based. I see it as being the deliverance of aoe spells if these type of changes are made where it is an effective almost essential spell that casting it at the right time makes a huge impact. When used and there are less recipients than a full party (some are dead or you're just not in a full party) have the throughputs increased too.
Most people were complaining a while back about the overuse of the AoE heal style gameplay seen in things like Neverwinter, where you basically just stack a bunch of people into one area and have the healers stand in one spot and spam their big AoE heal at every opportunity with anything else inbetween.
The more powerful the heal, the more effective this playstyle becomes, so I ask, what is your opinion on this playstyle especially in larger group content, if anything?
This is why auras and debuffs that reduce incoming/outgoing healing should be implemented (Like in SMITE for example). Hoping the Bard can fill that void.
Just going to put thoughts here as I have them. The Melee heal/heals shouldn't require a target. I know it sounds wierd but it should scale like other spells on how many it affects and simply be Cone or AoE. Should be. Its a BIG positioning risk too.
Something cool might be a heal that includes a levitate, one that sends you backwards but higher into the air that would sort of Create a Mercy type of heal for respositioning. I just think that would be super fun.
Can have a one skill block for the melee heal as well.
Healing skillwise there was a good amount of abilities here to cover a decent amount of situations (maybe too many) but honestly I'm a little concerned we didn't see anything in regards to Unholy skills, roleplay skills, buffs in the form of stat buffs, dispels or melee strikes. I'm concerned because this isn't how you design a class. You should be branching out from all desirable aspects of a Cleric not just pinpointing one aspect and only running with that.
I don't expect every Cleric to the same thing but you have to recognize that you essentially showed us a class that all it does is heal in a variety of ways. This isn't interesting. Give me a CLERIC.
I want to be a god's conduit. Not just a sparkly healer. Bring some god damn flavor.
Like Dragon Dogma, some damage is permanent. Such that not all healing spells (or maybe other actions), would be able to heal a person to full. Over time, the player would sustain more and more permanent damage. The only way for that player to use their full HP bar again, would be through a certain range of spells or actions (items or out of combat sleeping or eating, etc).
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
- I really like the direction it’s heading in! I love that you shifted away from the blinding white light effects and have instead gone for a full spectrum of light as it’s manipulated by the user. It would be cool if the cleric had some more “magical empowerment” abilities that had the same visual impact as the mage hovering during the blizzard attack. That was a “wow!” moment for me. The ability where the cleric rushes towards an ally might be a good one to amp up as the animation / sound timing bugs get worked out, or another larger cooldown ability. Something to really make you remember how much power you wield.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- Versatility in spells is great. Cuts down on the number of abilities to manage.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- A good mix is important, and I think you’ll find some players will want to be able to specialize their abilities to either function as single-specific casts, or timed casts. Let the players choose how much of their kit is timed, and how much of it is static, trying your best to make both options viable. Perhaps static kits don’t have as much healing potential, but cast times / mana costs are slightly lowered or something. Since this is the only healing kit in the game, you’ll want to make sure you aren’t alienating too many healers who aren’t into the timed casts. I’d recommend incorporating the same timed casting mechanics into other casters.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- I like the concept mechanically, but it’s a bit weird that you just press a button and the target gets healed with no animation or visible effort. If it’s a high-CD ability, perhaps you could give it some sort of cool animation where a light projection of you emerges from your body, hovers above you, and arcs their body back, hands extended, as it casts the spell for you?
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- My most recent experiences as a healer was Druid healing in WoW, which was mostly focused around HoTs and AoE heals with a couple single target fillers of different strengths. I really enjoyed that type of predictive healing, keeping track of several people and making sure the people who’re most likely to need HoTs get them before things get nasty. I really hope the augment system will make the cleric feel different as a healer when paired with another class. If the augments don’t significantly change the aesthetic or mechanical style of the healing, I’m not sure I’ll be playing one. I really prefer the naturalist healer trope over the holy messenger / warrior type character. I think they’ll be a great challenge to play against given the flexibility of their toolkit.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
- I’m much more likely to play a naturalist / Druid type healer than any holy class.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
- My main thoughts right now from the showcase are more focused on the world. While I understand the world is still being fleshed out, here are some thoughts I have on that as the process continues. I would really like to see the world have more clutter. It needs some “texture” to give it personality. When I saw the ruin, as well put together as the physical structure was, I wouldn’t be able to tell you anything about that place, what it was once used for, who lives there now, etc. Developed and natural places in the world should be able to tell you a story about what people or creatures inhabit it, how they live, or perhaps how long it’s been abandoned. Modeling and textures are looking pretty good, but it’s visual style I still worry about in Ashes. I’ve seen the game so many times now that I recognize it almost immediately from previously released showcases, but if I were to see a random screenshot of a non-showcased area, I don’t think I’d be able to say, “Oh, that’s ashes of creation.” I really think the leaders in the art/world design area need to take some inspiration from New World dungeon design or recent WoW open world design when it comes to making memorable places with clutter, flaws, and imprints left behind, so that the places they make (and the stories they tell without a single word) are really memorable.
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
It has nice array of healing spells which fit various situations, although i feel like Cleric kit we got shown is a bit too "simplistic" and could use more depth to make it a bit more tactical/challenging/rewarding.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Balanced mix of both is i believe something to strive for, but where single specific use spells are somewhat longer cooldowns that can turn the tide of outcome, and versatile spells being more lower cd to give Clerics feel of "juggling" through single spell various uses and have that feeling of being kept on your toes all the time.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Held down/Charged abilities are okay, but i doubt they will make a lot of sense in PvP, since you'll rarely get a chance to get a full charge off since naturally healers are always focused first and you'll be under pressure where you have to constantly kite and self-peel. For PvE and world bosses it's satisfying to hit the full charge off certain spell and just top off the whole raid/party or just a single party member.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Interesting spell, but maybe it should have tradeoff like gradual mana cost increase, since it's a no brainer and doesn't offer risk of being late with the heals.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
Personally looking to play Cleric, I'm just excited to PvP around pretty much.
By playing with other Clerics i can't wait to compare how each secondary archetype affects Cleric healing output and discovering how other Clerics in my party/raid do and in which situations each Cleric did best in different situations we went through during encounter/combat.
Playing against other Clerics i'm just excited to do better than them and come out on top as a better Cleric who managed to keep my party alive while beating other party. Of course there will be times where other Clerics will own me as well but i'm gonna be excited to learn from the better ones and apply that to my gameplay.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Pretty much Priest class from World of Warcraft. I think it's closest to Cleric we got shown in July update.
I like some of the unique approach where Discipline (Discipline=specialization) Priest also can heal party through dealing damage to enemy, having nice array of barrier/shield spells that bypass healing reduction debuff and just in general being more of an offensive type of healer with shorter but somewhat less impactful cooldowns which is tradeoff for doing more damage.
Then you have Holy Priest, which is a more of a standard "healbot" with strong heals, but it's more prone to being focused and not having enough self-peel so gotta rely on teammates to help him get rid of enemy players focusing it.
Also both of the previous types of Priests have some spells from Shadow school of magic (aka "bad priest") so if you are denied from casting Holy spells you can still switch it around and cast other type of magic. Altho i'm not sure what's Intrepid policy on interrupt spells that prevent casting and locking out of casting certain "schools/elements" of magic.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Happy with how healing rotation looks like and general feel of Cleric archetype looking smooth, concerned about even though healing spells are various they look somewhat "shallow" in terms of what do they do so some more unique feel to them could be added imo. I'm not sure how much spells in total we got shown from that Archetype, but definitely class could use more utility/situational spells/CC. Definitely more CC for the sake of kiting and self-peeling since enemy players are a bit more smarter than a pack of Minotaurs we got shown in devstream.
Really really good job this month with the Livestream and all the hard work going into the whole project. Before I get into the cleric, just wanted to say how HOT FIRE THE COMBAT IN THIS STREAM WAS. Legitimately looked phenomenal seeing just the three classes' abilities lighting up the fights. The environment and AI (y'all got the don't pile up thing working) also looked so, so good.
- Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Current balance looks pretty good. I think that a lot of utility can come from augments. You want buffs, bard secondary. You want summons like Tera's Mystic, summoner secondary (this is one I'm gonna try out in alpha 2.)
- What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
Looks like a class that properly and fully fits the stereotype of "kill the healer first!". It'll be like playing American Football.
- What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Tera's Mystic was really good for me. Good solo play and a lot of fun mechanics in combat.
- Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Really excited to see how fast the rogue can kill a priest. I'm looking forward to a pvp update in a few months, just to see how chaotic that immediately becomes.
Comments
My ONLY concern is about targeting, not the class/abilities itself.
can you target with F keys? Is there a target's target function so you can heal through a mob?
Might also cause players to not have 100% knowledge of the area of an opponent and intensity might affect area.
So rather than obscuring the target or area, unless intended, the effects may actually help rather than hinder other players (allies) without serving as a tell to opponents in PVP. Now for the nuke spells, go for it.
So far it's an improvement over the last Cleric showcase but it still needs work. It's at a fairly good state but like a few others here, I have a lot of comments. I like that you're trying different types of heals and adding variety there. Seems more interesting at least.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I'm used to abilities that have specific uses. I'm ok with abilities that have versatility but it can be hard to make it so those abilities have real choices and not one that's clearly the best and other choices that don't have much use. A few of your abilities fall into the latter category.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I don't like held abilities. It doesn't feel fun to play but more than that, it forces you to put more pressure with your fingers on the keybind, and doing so repeatedly over a long period of time with a skill that's meant to be spammed can cause finger/hand discomfort. It's just not practical.
Beyond that, a good held ability needs to at least a) allow me to press it lightly and not require firm holding of my keybind to prevent it from going off early, and b) some delination of tiers of the ability, either via several charges such as charge levels 1, 2, 3 or lines on the single charge bar that you had here - both choices are designed to show me how much healing I'm getting so I can decide when to let it up (as opposed to now where it looks like the player has to just guess based on experience - it would be better to more clearly indicate how much we're getting and when).
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I'm not sure how I feel about this. At the very least I'm not excited about it. It rewards poor gameplay on the part of the healer. In addition, this is a small heal that's barely bigger than Mend, so the heal amount is already too low. The small, efficient maintenance heal shouldn't be almost equal to the emergency instant heal.
But beyond that why reward poor healers with a near spammable instant heal that can be used during any cast? It's an easy mode button. You should be rewarding good decision making and skilled gameplay. Skilled healing requires a lot of good decision making and the ability to pay attention to everything that's going on around them and adjust their choices moment to moment to maximize gameplay and keep people alive. It's dynamic. This removes that. Right now I see it as both a heal that's too small but an idea that's too easy. Either way it's a lose-lose to me.
In general I don't think I've seen a heal that can be used during other casts in other games so this doesn't feel necessary to me at all. I have seen in other games, a longer CD instant cast heal that heals for much more and that is fine as it serves as a real "Oh Shit" button.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Cleric in Aion was a great class, although perhaps had too many abilities. The TERA Priest was really fun as well. I'd say WoW Priest and Paladin are decent but both feel like they're missing something. Aion's Cleric was a great all around healer that felt like it had all the tools I'd need. And TERA was my absolute favorite action combat healer. Both really well designed for the types of combat they have.
A few other thoughts about skills in particular:
Mend and Flash Cure are too similar in heal amount. Mend also looks awkward and unfun to use. I like the idea of an efficient, spammable heal but there's something weird about this one - maybe the animation and the charges/CD make it seem off. Also I don't like the CD showing up on the UI when I still have charges left.
Resplendent Beam seems to heal the same single target as it does multi which seems weird to me. So the tank is getting the same amount of HP if I only heal him vs if I heal everyone. Obviously I get more out of my mana if I heal all so maybe that's what it's trying to accomplish? Other than that, this is an ok group heal. I would say the total heal amount per player is a bit too low, though.
Communal Restoration - the effect duration is way too low - the HoT and Temp HP should both last longer if they're going to be such small amounts. I do think the amount for at least the HoT is ok if it's a long term maintenance heal. But again the effect needs to last much longer. The Temp HP should probably be larger as well as lasting longer otherwise the small amount of it now seems like it'd be used up too quickly and defeat the purpose entirely.
Judgement - This seems fairly good unless I'm missing something. The heal portion seems slightly faster and larger than Deliverance except it has a CD? So far so good and it having a damage portion is nice as well for when I don't need the heal.
Deliverance - I know I touched on this above but I'd also like to add that the full charge seems too long a cast time.
Soothing Glow - same as the other HoT, the duration on this seems a bit too low? HoTs need to generally be longer duration effects to really be worth using.
Bless Weapon - I like the idea that I can get mana back for auto attacking and potentially add more damage than just my weapon damage.
Consecrating Wave - really cool ability. I wouldn't call it a "cone" though. If we're being honest it's a massive 180 degree arc. Way, way too big. For "action" abilities to be fun and not brainless, they need limits. TERA's Priest healer is a great example of that. All the AoEs worth using were tiny 5m circle AoEs (with player collision this meant you could only fit a few players in it). And either they had a long CD if ranged targeted AoE, or forced the cloth healer into melee range, and both skills forced the healer to choose who to heal with it, when they can safely use them, etc. It wasn't as easy as press button, heal everyone safely from afar, then rinse/repeat seconds later. That's super unfun (and why most action combat healing games other than TERA are super boring).
Either way I'm not sure what they meant by wanting to split the effect, but I don't want it to end up being something where you are punishing players for using action abilities, nor punishing players for good positioning (healer and group). If it's going to be like Judgement where all the seemingly well designed skills are split power between damaging and healing, I have to ask what's the point then. Pick one or the other if you're going to water down a skills power so it can do "both". Instead I feel like the action abilities should require more skill to use (smaller effect, and other decisions/risks associated as mentioned) and then also heal for more than their tab multi-target equivalents).
This is overall a good idea for a skill, though.
Divine Flare - not exciting because GtAoEs are always boring and not super hard to use, but an ok actiony group heal. I might suggest instead of GtAoE, play with making it some other type of AoE? TERA had some creative AoE ideas that were fun, skillful, but not hard to place/"aim". TERA had a 5m circle direct heal AoE at the Priest's feet as well as another 5m circle fixed at 10m range in front of her that was a HoT that stuck on the ground adding the HoT effect to anyone who stepped inside, along with mana regen. They also had some projectile abilities that would arc down at a fixed location - a fireball that fell 10m away leaving a 3m AoE on the ground or a rain of arrows landing in a circle 15m away, etc. These are more creative and interesting ways to make an AoE heal (or damage or any other effect) compared to GtAoEs.
For context, max range in TERA was about 20-22m, so 10m was a mid range ability. And the reticle had the range of whatever you were mousing over, which helped to judge distance in addition to experience.
As with Consecrating Wave, this circle is too big and my thoughts about tab vs action multi target heals applies here as well. Delayed cast I'm on the fence about. As with Flash Cure, seems to reward poor gameplay. If I the healer position it poorly, or my teammates can't learn how to stack, then we should suffer for it (Risk vs reward!). Players will learn how to maximize it. Should just be instant cast (TERA Priest, a cloth caster, had a 5m AoE fixed location at their feet that was instant cast but was a massive direct AoE heal - this rewarded good gameplay on the part of both me the healer and my party with appropriate risk for it.) Also as with Resplendent Beam, the heal amount is too low.
Barrier - why am I sacrificing my health for this? Doesn't seem like a tradeoff that makes sense. Beyond that, as with the temp HP shields, this barrier is way too low and will be used up quickly. It's also too low when you consider I'm giving up 25% HP for it. I like the idea of a Barrier, but this needs a rework.
Chains of Restraint - I like the idea of an AoE CC with extra damage.
Defiant Light/Divine Infusion - seems like nice CDs.
Healing Touch - I like this also for those who want to play in melee, they get rewarded with a big instant heal. Should be a templated action ability though.
Wings - also neat.
Smite - why not spammable? We need a spammable direct damage ability.
Condemn - ranged stun is a nice idea but it's on a way too long CD and has a cast time for something that only lasts 3 seconds? Seems a bit underpowered. Get rid of cast time if it's only going to last 3 seconds and lower the CD. 20 seconds means I can't use it too often. Could reduce the duration to 1 sec and make it instant and lower the CD and then it would serve as a nice interrupt. Or you could keep the 20 sec CD and make it last longer so it's a sleep instead of a stun. Could also turn it into a short duration KD or KB instead of stun so maybe it has potential as a defensive skill (not that stun doesn't). But right now it has this weird middle ground and it needs to fill one niche or the other. I like CC for Cleric, but this one needs more thought.
Edit: Someone in another thread pointed out you had mentioned a long time ago that hard CC would be action and soft would be tab. I would like to see this and all other CC on all archetypes reworked with that in mind. Either make it action with some sort of mid range line/cone type shape, or keep it tab and maybe make it a 70% slow or something.
There are other things I feel are missing:
I'd expect a single target (spammable) and hopefully also AoE cleanse that cleanses a variety of debuff, DoT, and CC effects on my targets.
I need also a spammable single target damage ability at least. And hopefully more AoE damage than just the Chains?
I'd also love to see more damage reduction type skills. The barrier and temp HP ideas are nice, but don't feel impactful enough.
I'd also love some sort of buffs for my party or other utility abilities. Right now it feels like the kit has way too many heals, and the heals have a lot of overlap with one another. I want a more interesting and well-rounded toolkit.
I'd also like to see a ranged action-style single target heal as well. You have mid-long range AoE action abilities. I think Healing Touch has the potential to be turned into an action templated ability for melee range single target action (6m range cone or rectangle?). If we're being honest, there's no reason for a melee ability to be targeted. But we also need a ranged single target action heal ability as well and given the fact that you have too many overlapping heals already, I think you can fix that issue and add a single target action heal in and kill two birds with one stone.
I know aim based projectiles like TERA did are likely too hard to accomplish (but we would all love if you can do it like TERA did! But given how extremely poorly New World did that style of heal, and even more poorly ESO did with their single target heals - I'm ok with it not existing here if that's how it has to be). So I will point you in the direction of Wildstar. It's a doable middle ground that works with your combat system. They had long line heals on Esper that served as ranged "single target" (but realistically you'd hit maybe 2-3 but that's ok - TERA's "single target" heals worked the same way). Wildstar also had some long thin cones on Spellslinger. Play with these ideas so players who want to do action instead of tab have a few choices. I will play either tab or action - whatever feels best. But I do think offering players real choices is important.
Also I do want to say I like the animations of the skills so far. Not only do they look good but they're useful. They show me what skill is being used, on whom, where it's hitting, etc. It gives me real information about what's going on in combat and that's important. Whereas in some games animations are just useless filler.
Edit: It was mentioned on Twitter that mana management will be an important skill for healers to master. Depending on the degree to which this is an issue, it may balance out some of the tab styled abilities that seem OP above.
I really like the idea of the cleric resource (golden bar) provides a choice between divine infusion or not spending it and improving cleric efficacy but what I want to know is how... does it increase throughput? mana cost of spells? cooldown reduction? All of the above? In the stream it was mentioned but not specified. I just wanted to know more because on the face of it I love, love, love this choice of use. So happy about this. Please keep this.
Flash Cure, as mentioned in my previous post, I'd like to see the recharge time lengthen to allow for more significant throughput increase. I would also like to see the cooldown of the recharge impacted either by a specific heal or two that requires skill expression like charge time (think Deliverance) or recharge could be impacted just by healing and damage generally.
Communal Restoration really jumps out to me as having a lot of potential to be an amazing addition to the cleric's kit but needs some work to become that. I think all forms of throughput (temp health, initial heal, and hot) need a significant boost for this to be possible. This spell is a prime candidate of cast time/held spell and some of the throughput can be built into the cast time build up. I would add that if you complete the cast all the way to the end that it reduces the mana cost of the spell. I would keep it a mana costly spell instead of it having charges. I see it as being the deliverance of aoe spells if these type of changes are made where it is an effective almost essential spell that casting it at the right time makes a huge impact. When used and there are less recipients than a full party (some are dead or you're just not in a full party) have the throughputs increased too.
I like that smite crits on condemned targets. I would like for smite's burning stacks on a target to increase the duration of condemn stun duration.
On spell visuals, I like the gold theme used but on the lens flare type effects I would like to see the color themes used to be less red/blue and more prismatic or pearlescent. Perhaps different sub Archetypes impact that later on but if I'm a High Priest or Scryer that color combo feels too martial/material to me and not ethereal enough in the way that a prismatic or pearlescent would.
Most people were complaining a while back about the overuse of the AoE heal style gameplay seen in things like Neverwinter, where you basically just stack a bunch of people into one area and have the healers stand in one spot and spam their big AoE heal at every opportunity with anything else inbetween.
The more powerful the heal, the more effective this playstyle becomes, so I ask, what is your opinion on this playstyle especially in larger group content, if anything?
You need to put limitations on things to prevent this. Ashes is already taking an important step in having player collision, so you can't have a large amount of players in one spot. That helps. Further you make it so powerful AoEs have limitations, such as massive mana cost or large CD so they're not able to be used too often, or you make it a small AoE size so that it can't hit a ton of players (with player collision). TERA handled this well, so that your AoEs really felt impactful but you were mostly only spamming your "single target" lock on heal (really it hit 2-3 targets). Outside of that you used your AoE heals situationally as needed, and not only did it require thought (and the lack of heal spam left time for other types of abilities), but it also meant your team had to learn how to position in order to get the best heals. There's other things they can do as well to promote skill over AoE spam. It's certainly doable.
Hello Azherae. Thank you, I really appreciate the question!
For me, this is answered by some of the details I drew from re-watching the video. Communal Renewal took around 15-20% mana on cast. I feel like that hefty mana cost will (with the cast time mechanic I suggested) promote a thoughtful and well timed cast and makes spamming a short lived endeavor. Also, this spell is limited to the party itself per the discussion when they introduced it iirc.
I prefer to have a variety of tools with viability of each and it being more a question of when each tool is best to use.
In a lot of mmos with large scale conflicts you see aoe healing remain prevalent because interaction with the UI (especially while in a pvp or heavy npc enemy aoe formats) is cumbersome and leaves you vulnerable. It sounds like they're working on making it so we'll be able to access our targets quickly in a variety of ways which can be customized through our UI menu (mentioned during stream.)
The other issue in larger scale healing situations is that the design of aoe healing spells are able to be chained so cooldowns are relatively meaningless. If there's a way to chain aoe heals over and over again then it will be the meta - especially (again) in most pvp and any enemy npcs with strong aoe situations.
However, I noticed a lot of cds and charges on most aoe heals. This coupled with the philosophy Steven has for the game generally (choices matter) leads me to believe the talent trees will make you choose between which aoe and single target spells you have rather than get all of one kind eliminating that opportunity for a compelling choice of when and how to use your aoe. Just an inference on my part though. If that isn't the case in A2 I will definitely provide feedback that it promotes less engaging play.
I mained priest in Wow classic and wow the cleric here looks wild. It looks like it would be a ton of fun to play and even tho I plan to main mage in AoC if it ever comes out I would like to also play cleric.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Versatility is great and helps make a character strong, give players decisions to make during combat, and it can just make it more fun to play and reduce the risk of gameplay getting boring. That being said classes do still need to have enough very simple but still strong abilities to have a basic bread and butter kit with more complex abilities surrounding it.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I think there should be more than one but not many, they look cool but also a bit complicated and shouldnt be too major to a kit. abilities like the chain heal that might be a very commonly used ability during group fights with aoe but i just dont want a third of my kit to be held.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Looks good
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
The kit gives alot of utility, a small instant cast heal to toss in randomly, the weapon buff that gives mana regen will likely make a meta of having healers swap out/take turns to recover mana, the HoT that can avoid a death might be too strong but thats relative to what other ultimate abilities look like. The cleric looks to have a ton of burst healing output, even if a real cleric wont have all these abilities it may make pvp really annoying for say a 2v2 where one has a cleric or even team fights since he can leap around both for safety and just to reposition for healing touch. I hate pvp tho so i dono.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
It might be too strong with too much burst. The skill cap looks quite high which might be annoying in groups but thats anyways a thing.
I really liked the blessed weapon ability but it felt not very impactful in the demo. I'm hoping that utility is of more value post balancing passes.
I also liked the aoe placed/action spells not being too visually heavy so players could see it but not miss other key visuals on the ground. I'm sure for the players that did not cast the spell it might even see a more reduced visual but I like it thus far.
Castable abilities are ok for the most part but are always better to not restrict your movement to use them. In some cases, if you are casting some very powerful abilities then it is normal to be mobilized during the casting. 2 routed abilities should be more than enough. In a scenario where you cast a HOT, sacrificing your mobility for healing over time then I wouldn't use it at all.
Cleric as a class sounds like something that can provide defense and a stable healing. Well done with the showcase. I am looking forward to seeing more.
while I really like that Intrepid implemented mantle and I think it's great, I don't want it to activate automatically whenever I'm just trying to quickly jump over a fence or something, it's clunky if it's always on I'd rather if to activate it we had to keep pressing the roll key during a jump - that would feel a lot better and prevent situations that we wouldn't want to mantle
it kind of feels like you would only use it in combination with Wings of Salvation effectively, so I have a few suggestions:
A ) combine the two abilities
B ) make Healing Touch stronger or more unique in order to justify getting close to danger
C ) do both A and B?
Ask yourself, why would you ever want to get close to the player you want to protect? for just another heal that could have been done with range?
Since Healing Touch is a melee only ability, there should be some reward for getting up close as a healer - eg. the ability should be extra strong, give extra damage reduction, apply a shield to both of you or something along those lines.
Additionally, I wish Healing Touch would have a different animation. As of now the arm is raised into the air right in the face of your friend that you want to heal. May I suggest pounding or visually enchanting the floor (or both) and healing anyone (or just the target) on the enchanted floor.
Last but not least, please do not tone down the visual effects. If anything, go a little crazier.
That is actually quite exactly what exists in warhammer onlines healing class called Zealot. There you throw a flask through the air and gives a hot effect to allies, super fun ability!
I didn't see too many hot effects in the preview and I just thought that would fit so good with the air time and charges. It could also be stackable to make you decide if you wanna spread out hots throughout your party or focus on keeping one person alive.
Just wanted to add my thought about that, thanks!
Edit: Why i bring Hots up is also because i really like preventative healing. Like HoTing everyone up in my party and putting on an absorb shield for example before you all run into combat, and keeping hots up on all your party members is fun.
I usually dont play healers, but looking at this makes me want to play the class.
I think the abilities being multi purpose is great, it increases the skillceiling.
I do have some critisisms though:
One thing i feel might be annoying is having to hold down abilities. Holding a button while moving is not nice.
Maybe add a control scheme option to have it so that when you press an ability that can charge, it automatically starts charging, and if you tap it again it will release it at the current charge level. So basically double tap to insta cast, tap once to charge.
I think this also goes well with the class mechanic. You might have a lot of keybindings, having to hold for example shift + 2 and simultaniously press another bind to use your divine infusion sound very annoying. With the way i propose you can press them sequentially quickly. Tap your ability, then either tap again to release the ability at the current charge, or tap your divine infusion to insta complete the charge.
The class resource did however feel a little underwhelming. Its something that basically can increase your healing or damage throughput, but thats something id more associate with a bard buff. It just doesnt feel very unique, and i feel like if you didnt have it, the class wouldnt feel/play any different (i dont think steven used it a single time during the showcase, that speaks to the fact that it doesnt add much if anything).
Random idea i came up with for another class resource, i didnt put a lot of thought into this, and it probably has issues but il put it here anyways incase it can inspire something good:
Divine Infusion:
- Overtime you built up "infusion" points
- You get these points for doing healing / dmg
- max stack is 10
- If you press the infusion button, 1 stack is consumed
- An infusion lasts for say 10 seconds
- You can stack infusions(each would have their own 10 second timers)
- If you cast an ability while you have infusion stacks, you increase the heal / shield / hot
- Each stack would increase the heal / whatever by a flat amount
- You can make it so that certain abilities change what they do entirely if consumed with x infusions
- Using an infusion stack would also function like a selfheal (extra survivability for cleric in pvp)
I feel like something like this is applicable to classes other than the cleric, but i liked the idea. I think something like this is a bit more interesting than just having an "instant cast" button.
I liked the abilities with charges, and i liked that they were "off global cooldown". I do however think they need a seperate cooldown so you cant just insta spam all 4 charges of an ability. Maybe 1 second cooldown would be nice?
Even though I know the VFX are still a work in progress, i want to point out some (inconsistent) things that i noticed.
There are more instances where spells do generate a lightsource, and some dont. I dont know if this is done on purpose or not, but IMO the abilities that do NOT generate lightsources look miles better.
^ Here, when deliverance lands on the target, there is no lightsource to be seen anywhere around the character / the floor.
^ Here, when flash cure lands on the target, there is a huge light source emited that lights up the area around the target
^ Here aswell when the cleric lands their dmg ability, the entire area just lights up red, I think just a red beam without the whole casting light all around it would look so much cleaner
^ In this instances from the carphin showcase you can see that even basic attacks sometimes generate a lightsource when they land.
I think the abilities and attacks would look a lot better if none of them generated lightsources as shown in the screenshots. When there is multiple abilities happening and theres 80 people on screen, all these lightsources will just be totally blinding.
I know this might seem like nitpicking, but I still wanted to point it out.
Overall the showcase was very good. I cant wait to play this class in alpha2!
Pretty good overall ! I think the direction where you are going is right. The only thing i did not like for now was the new ressource with the spell to instant finish the cast. It has a lot of potential, but it's a little too simplistic, and maybe miss some other synergies within the kit itself.
Both ?
Some, i thought the balance was good in the showcase.
Noice ! But it double down with the "Class ability" to shorten the cast time.
As - To not be JUST a healing machine, to have something to do other than just stay there like a postsign and heal my a** out. Feeling usefull, Having Strategic choices to make; COMBOS !
With : Good timing and communication, having the right tools for the right moment.
Against : How to reduce his heals ? How to kill him ASAP ?
WoW : Shadow Priest
Rift : Justicar
Overall pretty pleased, love the Shield were you sacrifice your life, often in raids / dungeons you just overhealing yourself so it's pretty neat to have an other ressources beside mana to use in thoses situations.
Liked the Melee heal too, cause it makes the player move on the battlefield and not just being a idle Healbot.
Just the Class abiility and the "Faith" meter seem a little simplistic for me right now, i think you can do something more exciting without reinventing the wheel. Like it can be used on instants too with a kisscool effect, or if you time the use just right some kisscool effect etc
Liked this a LOT more than the Tank and Mage archetypes.
Versatility: I liked the versatility that many of the spells had. I'm all about adding depth and meaningful choices to the gameplay. Complexity is great and fun.
3rd ressource: It made me really happy to see the 3rd ressource for cleric and how you can utilize it with Divine Infusion.
Flash cure: I really liked flash cure and the mechanic to cast a few select spells while casting other spells.
Visuals: The artists are doing really well with both the world and the spells. Deliverance in particular I really liked the animation, the blurry effect and the sound of it.
Concerns:
I only have two concerns about the cleric archetype. Perhaps you already know or have touched upon this or perhaps it is still too early to say anything about it, but I'll just mention them anyway.
1. Concerned about the variety of playstyles for the cleric classes. This is THE healer archetype. Therefore, it has to cater to a lot of different people coming from various healer playstyles in other games. What we have seen so far is the typical holy healer backline cleric/priest that has some ranged heals (with well-thought out spells and added versatile mechanics). That is good. But a lot of people like other healer playstyles. I hope you have already planned for other playstyles either through skill trees or secondary archetypes.
As an example I hope to see a melee healer playstyle similar to holy Paladin in WoW right now. It is a reactive, fast-paced playstyle in which you manage the ressource holy power to maximize your healing output while balancing a higher amount of instant heals.
2. Concerned about thematic variety of the cleric classes. What you have shown so far is a "holy" healer theme. While the "holy"-like power does not come from the Gods, it still has the light and "holy" theme about it. That is good, I like that theme. But I also like a nature-based healer theme like a Druid. Especially coupled with a Py'Rai elf a nature-themed healer would be very cool. There are other healing-themes like elements and ki energy, that I find cool too.
At this point it is unclear to me how much a cleric player can change the theme of their spells through secondary archetype, racial augments, religious augments and skill trees. I really hope you can do a lot there as I think that the theme of a character is very important to many MMORPG players. Myself included.
Keep up the good work, I'm very excited for this game!
I have little to no mmo experience but that gameplay felt natural and looked like a lot of fun. Got me really excited for the future of this game’s development.
The cleric animations were clean and felt very cohesive. Mend was definitely my favorite, you guys nailed the ‘simple heal’ animation and feel. I was skeptical of the VFX but they were pretty awesome. I have confidence the future class showcases will be held to the same standards you showed us with Cleric.
I’m sure this question has been asked a million times but how will the animations work with 2 handed weapons? Will it be the same animation with your character one handing for the animations duration or do you have plans for unique 2 handed animations?
Again, great stream. I’m so glad to be apart of this community and the development of Ashes. Looking forward to more!
I would like to see some abilities designed to save the Cleric from being focused in PvP or attracting the boss in PvE. A basic ability being point blank knockback for example, or a 'holy invulnerability' would work perhaps at the cost of resetting Conviction to 0. Or a reposition/evade emergency button.
I love bubbles/wards - I would like to see ones which absorb or reflect projectiles or certain types of magic.
It seems like the set of abilities has everything imaginable, stirred around and brewed nicely, so that just about any playstyle can be satisfied. And we haven't seen the other abilities or augments yet!
Need to see more situational abilities please. The kind you sometimes equip, other times not, other times you wish you had! Like a death knight high damage spike when under 30% health.
Solo play: Need to know if this is viable too - would hunting for pelts be slow and tedious for a cleric?
The class healing kit looks great. I think it's a bit light in the buff/debuff realm from the more classical support. If that's being covered by a secondary archetype, then no worries.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I love the options that come with each ability, and could do with even more control over the damage/heal cone. For example, if you are targeting a friendly inside the cone then the ability deals 50% more healing, but no damage. If you are targeting an enemy inside the cone, then it does 50% more damage but no heal. If you have no main target, then it does regular damage+heal
I am not a fan of having many many abilities on top of the usual block/dodge/potion/etc. So I'd rather see a charge up heal take the place of a small instant heal and a large long cast heal...and possibly the medium cast time heal too. Skill point allocation can cover which one you want to "specialize" in. For example, spending skill points for a bonus heal if fully charged would be specializing in a long cast heal.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
As long as they have an effect no matter when they are released, I think several would be good. I also would like to see channeled abilities that have a continuous effect and cost mana every second.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
It's great in an archetype that relies on long cast times. I think giving it charges, low effect and low cooldown makes it a bit to spammy, since you are casting it inside of another spell and you also have another way to reduce long casts. I'd prefer no charges, double the effect and double the cooldown.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
Playing Alpha 2 would excite me. The Cleric is just interesting
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Early WoW Druid was easily my favorite. This is more because of the slippery nature than the healing mechanics. But I also like a mix of HoT options alongside burst heals.
What I really like is a setup that allows a healer to slip from healing to DPS when the situation calls for it. Let the # of GCDs spent healing vs the # of GCDs spent DPSing determine the heal/damage ratio. To do this don't have a choice of healing vs damage skill points, but rather have skill points that give a bonus to specific type of healing also give a bonus to a specific type of damage.
That said, beware lifetap heals (IE, heal for 30% of the damage you deal) as they're a balancing nightmare. Also, DPS clerics definitely should do less damage than DPS classes, because they always still have their heals.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
* Love the charge-to-friendly ability, but it felt a bit bare not having some kind of secondary effect. But I think this is a good place for ability-replacement. After you charge to someone, the ability button changes into another ability that gives the person you charged (something). Using that (something) lengthens the cooldown of charge
* Chain heal charges to full way to fast. It goes from healing one person to healing the max # of people in 1 second. IMO this should be 2 seconds. Also, I did not see if the mana cost went up with the number of people healed, but it should.
* Concerned about insta-cast ability giving too much burst. It needs a short 3-5s cooldown if it doesn't empty the radiance bar.
I'd like to say again how little I like having many cooldowns that do a similar things. If you give me an 8s cooldown medium heal and a 16s cooldown large heal, I *have to* put them both on my bar to be as effective as the next guy. However, if you make a heal so that it has 2 charges of medium heal on an 6s cooldown, then you have similar functionality of those 2 heals on one button.
Likewise if you have a single target HoT with no cooldown or with charges, there's no reason not to make it so that if the HoT is recast on someone who has the HoT, they get a secondary effect as well as refreshing the HoT
My guess is there's going to be a build around melee clerics OR more for the martial sub-archetypes and your fellow ranged members taking damage nearby from another ranged source in the case you're more the traditional caster.
But I like the feedback you provided generally. Those are great questions to pose in response.
Also, since everyone else is mentioning it, I'm planning on playing a High Priest, Scryer, or some heavily support and healing build of a cleric. So this feedback is from someone with interest in playing the Cleric and has for decades played almost exclusively healers in mmos.
* How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
Compared to the original Cleric ability showcase this one excited me. The first showcase left me feeling that there was too much emphasis on offensive skills. The Cleric is looking like a top-tier healer, and that makes me happy!
* Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I prefer versatility. The skill that does damage OR heal is a good example.
* How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Since I'm assuming they can be interrupted, I feel 1/4 is a good ratio.
* How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I loved it. It adds more depth and an opportunity for the healer to sharpen their craft. Healing can be 2D, and abilities like this that are out of the norm and expand the skill ceiling is great.
* What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
For playing, it feels dynamic. I enjoy doing top notch healing while weaving in the best DPS I can. The abilities shown give the player that option.
* What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
In WoW I enjoyed a Holy (healing focused) and Disc (more utility focused) specced Priest.
* Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Concern: Some of the effects looked more Mage/Arcane-like rather than Divine. In the cone ability there was some blue, which reminded me of the Mage's lightning. There was some blue and red in some of the others, which brought to mind arcane sources rather than Divine.
Appreciate: The overall effects have been toned down quite a bit, and it looks soo much better! Good job!
The zone looked beautiful. I look forward to exploring it.
This is why auras and debuffs that reduce incoming/outgoing healing should be implemented (Like in SMITE for example). Hoping the Bard can fill that void.
Edit: SMITE as in the game, not the ability.
Something cool might be a heal that includes a levitate, one that sends you backwards but higher into the air that would sort of Create a Mercy type of heal for respositioning. I just think that would be super fun.
Can have a one skill block for the melee heal as well.
I don't expect every Cleric to the same thing but you have to recognize that you essentially showed us a class that all it does is heal in a variety of ways. This isn't interesting. Give me a CLERIC.
I want to be a god's conduit. Not just a sparkly healer. Bring some god damn flavor.
Like Dragon Dogma, some damage is permanent. Such that not all healing spells (or maybe other actions), would be able to heal a person to full. Over time, the player would sustain more and more permanent damage. The only way for that player to use their full HP bar again, would be through a certain range of spells or actions (items or out of combat sleeping or eating, etc).
- I really like the direction it’s heading in! I love that you shifted away from the blinding white light effects and have instead gone for a full spectrum of light as it’s manipulated by the user. It would be cool if the cleric had some more “magical empowerment” abilities that had the same visual impact as the mage hovering during the blizzard attack. That was a “wow!” moment for me. The ability where the cleric rushes towards an ally might be a good one to amp up as the animation / sound timing bugs get worked out, or another larger cooldown ability. Something to really make you remember how much power you wield.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
- Versatility in spells is great. Cuts down on the number of abilities to manage.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
- A good mix is important, and I think you’ll find some players will want to be able to specialize their abilities to either function as single-specific casts, or timed casts. Let the players choose how much of their kit is timed, and how much of it is static, trying your best to make both options viable. Perhaps static kits don’t have as much healing potential, but cast times / mana costs are slightly lowered or something. Since this is the only healing kit in the game, you’ll want to make sure you aren’t alienating too many healers who aren’t into the timed casts. I’d recommend incorporating the same timed casting mechanics into other casters.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
- I like the concept mechanically, but it’s a bit weird that you just press a button and the target gets healed with no animation or visible effort. If it’s a high-CD ability, perhaps you could give it some sort of cool animation where a light projection of you emerges from your body, hovers above you, and arcs their body back, hands extended, as it casts the spell for you?
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
- My most recent experiences as a healer was Druid healing in WoW, which was mostly focused around HoTs and AoE heals with a couple single target fillers of different strengths. I really enjoyed that type of predictive healing, keeping track of several people and making sure the people who’re most likely to need HoTs get them before things get nasty. I really hope the augment system will make the cleric feel different as a healer when paired with another class. If the augments don’t significantly change the aesthetic or mechanical style of the healing, I’m not sure I’ll be playing one. I really prefer the naturalist healer trope over the holy messenger / warrior type character. I think they’ll be a great challenge to play against given the flexibility of their toolkit.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
- I’m much more likely to play a naturalist / Druid type healer than any holy class.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
- My main thoughts right now from the showcase are more focused on the world. While I understand the world is still being fleshed out, here are some thoughts I have on that as the process continues. I would really like to see the world have more clutter. It needs some “texture” to give it personality. When I saw the ruin, as well put together as the physical structure was, I wouldn’t be able to tell you anything about that place, what it was once used for, who lives there now, etc. Developed and natural places in the world should be able to tell you a story about what people or creatures inhabit it, how they live, or perhaps how long it’s been abandoned. Modeling and textures are looking pretty good, but it’s visual style I still worry about in Ashes. I’ve seen the game so many times now that I recognize it almost immediately from previously released showcases, but if I were to see a random screenshot of a non-showcased area, I don’t think I’d be able to say, “Oh, that’s ashes of creation.” I really think the leaders in the art/world design area need to take some inspiration from New World dungeon design or recent WoW open world design when it comes to making memorable places with clutter, flaws, and imprints left behind, so that the places they make (and the stories they tell without a single word) are really memorable.
Great job all, keep it up!
It has nice array of healing spells which fit various situations, although i feel like Cleric kit we got shown is a bit too "simplistic" and could use more depth to make it a bit more tactical/challenging/rewarding.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Balanced mix of both is i believe something to strive for, but where single specific use spells are somewhat longer cooldowns that can turn the tide of outcome, and versatile spells being more lower cd to give Clerics feel of "juggling" through single spell various uses and have that feeling of being kept on your toes all the time.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Held down/Charged abilities are okay, but i doubt they will make a lot of sense in PvP, since you'll rarely get a chance to get a full charge off since naturally healers are always focused first and you'll be under pressure where you have to constantly kite and self-peel. For PvE and world bosses it's satisfying to hit the full charge off certain spell and just top off the whole raid/party or just a single party member.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Interesting spell, but maybe it should have tradeoff like gradual mana cost increase, since it's a no brainer and doesn't offer risk of being late with the heals.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
Personally looking to play Cleric, I'm just excited to PvP around pretty much.
By playing with other Clerics i can't wait to compare how each secondary archetype affects Cleric healing output and discovering how other Clerics in my party/raid do and in which situations each Cleric did best in different situations we went through during encounter/combat.
Playing against other Clerics i'm just excited to do better than them and come out on top as a better Cleric who managed to keep my party alive while beating other party. Of course there will be times where other Clerics will own me as well but i'm gonna be excited to learn from the better ones and apply that to my gameplay.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Pretty much Priest class from World of Warcraft. I think it's closest to Cleric we got shown in July update.
I like some of the unique approach where Discipline (Discipline=specialization) Priest also can heal party through dealing damage to enemy, having nice array of barrier/shield spells that bypass healing reduction debuff and just in general being more of an offensive type of healer with shorter but somewhat less impactful cooldowns which is tradeoff for doing more damage.
Then you have Holy Priest, which is a more of a standard "healbot" with strong heals, but it's more prone to being focused and not having enough self-peel so gotta rely on teammates to help him get rid of enemy players focusing it.
Also both of the previous types of Priests have some spells from Shadow school of magic (aka "bad priest") so if you are denied from casting Holy spells you can still switch it around and cast other type of magic. Altho i'm not sure what's Intrepid policy on interrupt spells that prevent casting and locking out of casting certain "schools/elements" of magic.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Happy with how healing rotation looks like and general feel of Cleric archetype looking smooth, concerned about even though healing spells are various they look somewhat "shallow" in terms of what do they do so some more unique feel to them could be added imo. I'm not sure how much spells in total we got shown from that Archetype, but definitely class could use more utility/situational spells/CC. Definitely more CC for the sake of kiting and self-peeling since enemy players are a bit more smarter than a pack of Minotaurs we got shown in devstream.
- Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
Current balance looks pretty good. I think that a lot of utility can come from augments. You want buffs, bard secondary. You want summons like Tera's Mystic, summoner secondary (this is one I'm gonna try out in alpha 2.)
- What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
Looks like a class that properly and fully fits the stereotype of "kill the healer first!". It'll be like playing American Football.
- What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Tera's Mystic was really good for me. Good solo play and a lot of fun mechanics in combat.
- Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
Really excited to see how fast the rogue can kill a priest. I'm looking forward to a pvp update in a few months, just to see how chaotic that immediately becomes.