I don't think we are disagreeing from what I am reading. I do believe there should be a capability of mobility, but I think the difference between us may be that I think it shouldn't be baseline. Mobile healers should be a spec, and I do think melee healers should be one of those mobile specs. Ranged should have potential for some mobility such as maybe ranger and mage archetypes. But maybe cleric/cleric, cleric/summoner, and cleric/bard as ranged should have less mobility in place for greater heals, buffs, or utility.
That being said, even baseline can be mobile if the heals aren't too crazy. It all comes down to balance, but I enjoy the idea of having the option to sacrifice some things for others boons.
Also, even the option to play as a mobile group, or an immovable object is a good thing for gameplay. You can have a mobile group to move between objectives and a larger more stationary force that focuses a single area. Could be fun to have different builds that way.
Well, I feel that we should all be static or we should all be mobile. The ranger in phase 1 will still destroy all the other classes (except whilst it is slept for a while but sleep is broken by damage). The ranger wasn't even fleshed out either, but, in pvp it would reign supreme from what I've seen. Its akin to the cleric being overpowered in A1. In fact, the ranger would have defeated the A1 Cleric in PvP.
There is nothing wrong with everyone being static like Runescape or Lineage but last I heard there was a desire to revolutionise the genre and that won't happen with static combat. To be fair, we need fast flow hybrid combat like GW2 but with the square rather than a trinity tacked on as an after thought - thats why you only need to have buffs and not rely on healing in GW2.
At the end of the day, I will play either iteration of the combat but a mish-mashed iteration will not be successful. It will cause cookie cutting because there's no planned animation cancels either. People don't like to be static unless everyone else is static. Casting an ability with a root is acceptable, rooting all casts is not the best approach. Thankfully, the devs have moved towards mobility in recent years.
Well, I feel that we should all be static or we should all be mobile. The ranger in phase 1 will still destroy all the other classes (except whilst it is slept for a while but sleep is broken by damage). The ranger wasn't even fleshed out either, but, in pvp it would reign supreme from what I've seen. Its akin to the cleric being overpowered in A1. In fact, the ranger would have defeated the A1 Cleric in PvP.
There is nothing wrong with everyone being static like Runescape or Lineage but last I heard there was a desire to revolutionise the genre and that won't happen with static combat. To be fair, we need fast flow hybrid combat like GW2 but with the square rather than a trinity tacked on as an after thought - thats why you only need to have buffs and not rely on healing in GW2.
At the end of the day, I will play either iteration of the combat but a mish-mashed iteration will not be successful. It will cause cookie cutting because there's no planned animation cancels either. People don't like to be static unless everyone else is static. Casting an ability with a root is acceptable, rooting all casts is not the best approach. Thankfully, the devs have moved towards mobility in recent years.
Also don't think I am saying EVERYTHING has to be static for cleric/cleric. I just don't think it should all be castable while moving around freely. Some can definitely be instant or just slower, and a few can be outright free movement. I just think there should be other augments to make the rest mobile at the cost of more effective heals, and the most effective heals should either restrict movement, or have a high cooldown.
I get irritated by missing health and in the dev video there was a lot of missing health. I don't know how to remedy the situation because I asked for instant cast and got instant cast. However, there are still issues with the way the cleric plays but I could be criticising Stevens gameplay. I guess I could wait to test the cleric but the thread is open now.
I also asked for floor casts to be removed and hallowed ground has gone. There are many positives but the thread is for feedback. I'd rather not skirt around the issues and would rather highlight the issues for the team to mitigate. I've done my best with the limited material I have access to.
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
I really like the overall direction, and the variety of healing skill combinations.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I prefer versatility and creativity of use. I feel like specific use cases lend themselves to people memorizing a meta and imposing a specific style of play on others.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
It depends on the class, but what I saw felt fine for a support/healer role.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I thought this was an amazing addition! I loved it in combination with the held abilities.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I typically main a support/healing role. I am excited to be able to juggle a combination of abilities and react to situations with flash spell rather than sit in a rotation.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I would say TTRPG clerics like Pathfinder or soft healing roles like Guardian in GW2. I prefer these archetypes because they mover the cleric into a more supportive role than just healing. I think it's fun keeping everyone topped up, buffed, and in the fight, but it is more fun when I can also contribute to damage or crowd control in between heals.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
The only thing that concerned me was the heal spell (divine flare?) that healed more/less depending on who was in the AoE. That seems like a recipe for grumpy players, and I think Steven even mentioned it is a great opportunity for soft friction. I would disagree. I think friction between groups is good, friction within groups is bad. Abilities like this could create an opportunities for passive aggression and toxic play as well as punish new/solo players that don't know all the mechanics.
developers, please take some time to play Clerics and Favored Souls in Dungeons and Dragons Online, I think ye all will gain some valuable insights. wings is already an essentially copy paste of a favored soul skill from DDO, so im sure i know which of the two you all will enjoy playing more, and if it is favored soul like i suspect than i would suggest you model cleric more after favored soul, make it so they can more reliably solo content instead of giving them an extremely lopsided amount of healing skills to overcompensate for underperforming teammates
i watched the live stream and the skills look ok (not good, not bad) individually, but i also feel that there should be a better balance between healing skills and damaging skills, i’d like to play a cleric but i’m not sure if i will be sufficiently entertained with the skills as they are, as a DDO cleric main (spent many days in the past with khopeshes in the front, as a warpriest of siberys should do) in the past i think playing a healbot is usually too boring, might as well train an ai to follow you around in game and be an actual healbot if thats the case. i guess could only know by play testing (soon hopefully)
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I also asked for floor casts to be removed and hallowed ground has gone. There are many positives but the thread is for feedback. I'd rather not skirt around the issues and would rather highlight the issues for the team to mitigate. I've done my best with the limited material I have access to.
Hallowed Ground was not part of the demo, but Divine Flare is an AoE "floor cast".
I also asked for floor casts to be removed and hallowed ground has gone. There are many positives but the thread is for feedback. I'd rather not skirt around the issues and would rather highlight the issues for the team to mitigate. I've done my best with the limited material I have access to.
Hallowed Ground was not part of the demo, but Divine Flare is an AoE "floor cast".
Yeah but it's not an Attack like hallowed ground.
I have no qualms with a heal on the floor. I have qualms with damage on the floor. Fortunately, blizzard was changed too even though it coats the floor it's not a direct cast onto the floor. More of a positional cast on the floor.
Chains of Restraint:
Call forth spectral chains in a target area that stagger enemies within or stun enemies already under the staggered effect, then leave behind an area that deals radiant damage each second over 8 seconds.[2][3]
I'd say this is hallowed ground on steroids, I personally like floor casts and ground attacks, good to give cleric some AoE damage
Chains of Restraint:
Call forth spectral chains in a target area that stagger enemies within or stun enemies already under the staggered effect, then leave behind an area that deals radiant damage each second over 8 seconds.[2][3]
I'd say this is hallowed ground on steroids, I personally like floor casts and ground attacks, good to give cleric some AoE damage
Yeah I know about the chains but it was soft cc to my knowledge.
Chains of Restraint:
Call forth spectral chains in a target area that stagger enemies within or stun enemies already under the staggered effect, then leave behind an area that deals radiant damage each second over 8 seconds.[2][3]
I'd say this is hallowed ground on steroids, I personally like floor casts and ground attacks, good to give cleric some AoE damage
Hello! First off I have yet to be able to test yet (I don't have a key quite yet) but I jave been following the game's build for a while!
As an avid healer main in almost every game I just want to say that at first glance I do believe the healing is feeling fairly weak. I would suggest bumping those numbers up. From the video I saw on twitter that little beam heal did almost no healing. In PvE the healing should be enough to get the entire team through a tough fight without the cleric having to panic much.
As a cleric their job is to buff, boost, heal and defend their allies. So I am hoping over timr we see what kind of buffs they are able to give as well as their defensives!
Also a good cleric is mobile! I do hope we are able to walk and heal at the same time. Repositioning while being able to heal will be a great benefit to any healer main out there!
Also a good cleric is mobile! I do hope we are able to walk and heal at the same time. Repositioning while being able to heal will be a great benefit to any healer main out there!
Every class needs to be more mobile. I can't tell if it's Stevens gameplay or what.
I did forget about archetypes, I think multiclassing should hopefully naturally provide cleric with a more balanced playstyle (assuming you dont go double cleric)
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
It is in a good shape. Loving the spells so far. Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I prefer the more versatile spells, single use spells could be to much to handle, if you have 20+ single use spell you need that many keybinds to reach them when they are needed and that could be difficult. plus remamber all while you checking your excel sheet for party/raid hp, avoide bad things, searching the player to pull yourself to do the melee *slap* heal (check if they are in fire or not). How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Good question, for starter maybe 2 but depending on the effect it could be more. How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Very good approach, while casting a big heal I am able to send out some smol ones sound fantastic. Even if I can cast to one player and mouse over for others to flash them during the cast. What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
Playing as healing
Playing against get their hp 0 before mine, interrupt the cast, imobilize them, CC. What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Ranged healer with ability to do harm as well. Can support the damage as well with buffs to the damage dealers. Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
i am excited to try it out
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AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2023
Okay, one last comment. I listened to the 'Office Hours' yesterday and Roshen redirected us here, which means this post is still relevant.
First of all, where are the combat designers? Let us speak to them directly in these "Office Hours" so we understand what they are thinking. Or even bring Steven himself like the good old times.
◘ Class fantasy
You are the devs, why are you asking us about class fantasy when we don't know how the "64 classes" work yet? Shouldn't the secondary class system provide us with 8 different class fantasies, or am I expecting too much?
Using Mage as an easy example; one who wants to play Battlemage(mage/fighter) probably fantasizes about wielding a greatsword and doing big melee elemental AoEs with better mobility and sustain - at the cost of having shorter range.
Whereas a Spellhunter(Mage/Ranger) might want the opposite of that. Or Mage/Tank wants to play with a shield. They're all different fantasies of the same archetype.
I wish it was more than augmentations, so that a high APM Shadowcaster (mage/rogue) could have more skills to use than a low APM big damage Archwizard (mage/mage), not just shorter cooldowns. Different people want different class fantasies. Or they grow old or get injured and want a chill class. Can't even change archetype. Should they start over a new character from scratch? Be nice to the casuals and let people have fun. Another question asked was about held abilities. Someone mentioned that held abilities are boring, it really is boring when a skill is used without being fully utilized, it feels wasted & unsatisfactory.
At least in BDO charging an attack keeps you protected from CC, and you could even do a dash before releasing it. And obviously not FOUR seconds long, but it can still be held after full charge at the cost of stamina just to get the right timing for it. < This is an idea you could use for Deliverance, although I'd rather you delete this skill altogether.
I suggest that you forget about "held abilities" and do "channelling" instead; meaning, the effect is immediate but gradual. It works well on an AoE barrier like Protective Wings from Archeage.
As you can see, it has 2 minutes cooldown, channeling skills are not meant to be spammed cuz it would be boring.
For healing, channeling heals gradually could be good on classes that don't have many options to heal (NOT ON CLERIC), like a Meditation skill emitting healing aura or self-heal.
Held abilities would be excellent if the held abilities were HoT based. I just don't see the value in instant cast heals placed behind a delayed mechanic. Either burst heals are primary or burst heals are secondary. Hell, I've played healers who only had HoTs and the dominance was superb.
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AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'd rather have a held ability than a blatant cast to activate or ordinary channel skill. Channel abilities are in no sense of the word special, you are standing stationary until the channel ends. What looks impressive is the effect of the ability which could be reached through a number of ways if the combat designers get creative.
For what? Healing? If we're talking about Deliverance, it can't get more stationary than spamming a 4 seconds stationary skill. I said this skill needs to go away; and said in 3 big words "Not on Cleric" about channeling heals.
If the devs want Fighter to self-heal by staying stationary, I think it is fine.
Cleric has plenty of others heals. A stationary skill should be something special with long cooldown. Single-target healing skill on healer class is not special. I mentioned AoE barrier for Cleric as an example.
There is a difference between a class having only 1 long cooldown Stationary skill vs Stationary playstyle.
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AliceMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'd rather have a held ability than a blatant cast to activate or ordinary channel skill. Channel abilities are in no sense of the word special, you are standing stationary until the channel ends. What looks impressive is the effect of the ability which could be reached through a number of ways if the combat designers get creative.
For what? Healing? If we're talking about Deliverance, it can't get more stationary than spamming a 4 seconds stationary skill. I said this skill needs to go away; and said in 3 big words "Not on Cleric" about channeling heals.
If the devs want Fighter to self-heal by staying stationary, I think it is fine.
Cleric has plenty of others heals. A stationary skill should be something special with long cooldown. Single-target healing skill on healer class is not special. I mentioned AoE barrier for Cleric as an example.
There is a difference between a class having only 1 long cooldown Stationary skill vs Stationary playstyle.
Yes, I agree that stationary skills should be special with long cooldowns. But I don't think removing Deliverance does anything. The cast time should be reduced to 1 second, 2s max with a cooldown. Or at the very least the effect of the ability should be incorporated into another skill. The increased HPS based on missing health is a good approach for skill expression that Judgement lacks and actually every other healing ability showcased except maybe for Defiant Light. You get the most out of that ability if you let your target die towards the end of the buff and then burst-heal them.
It doesn't make sense to have casting time AT ALL on a skill that you're supposed to use on a near-death target. Consecrating Wave doesn't even require clicking on a target. It's much more reliable in this situation.
Good afternoon, I wanted to ask. Have you thought of somehow tying the elements to the skills? That is, for example, a healer has a couple of skills such as blow with wind or pour water, the concept of the skill can be thought out independently, what is the essence, because the object that needs to be cured is on fire, or sand got into the eyes through the skill "desert storm" (the enemy skill was used against him) and the healer can blow wind to heal and remove slowing effects. Or someone set it on fire, and the healer caused rain so that the rain animation took place and the person was cleansed and healed. I read that the weather will have a strong influence on everything that can happen, but I wonder if the elements will be included in the game, because it is as if this magic that comes from no one knows where it is part of Japanese games, and as I see it, you are making more of a game whose events take place in X -XIII centuries.
How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
Honestly I feel very excited, I love how it appears to feel with multiple options, managing multiple resources, and using your positioning as a augment to your play. It just seems well thought out and cared for in general.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I love the idea of having a versatile toolkit. Having buttons that sit waiting for a very specific time to use just feels like clutter in all honesty. Also I have the feeling that multiple players could look at this exact same tool kit and create completely different ideas on how to implement them and that's just plain exciting. We haven't even reached the point of full classes or augmentations and I can already see different playstyles coming from this alone. Fantastic .
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I personally feel that charge abilities are a good mix in to just spice things up a bit; however saturation could come quick (at least to my own preferences). Around 25% is a good feel for me with some of those being core rotational and some for cooldown/support.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I love these types of abilities, they really allow for some custom gameplay to happen and give players more options on the fly. It just feels good and using things like these sparingly in design gives some pizazz to the playstyle.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I always love and appreciate the spice that great support abilities bring into a fight especially in group on group PVP. They really can change the pace and ebb and flow of a battle and the stories that come from insane plays and saves live on forever.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I personally just love the idea and aesthetic of cleric archetypes in general. Something about gold magic.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
I'm just excited to see the cleric archetype mix with the others to create some very interesting classes.
1. How do you feel about the Cleric Archetype so far?
A- Initial reaction:
I really like the direction a lot so far. I think that once it is fine-tuned, more content added to the class, and combat is more fleshed out, the class will be amazing. My main negative feeling is the lack of mobility options, the lack of a need to use mobility (combat feels static), and lack of challenge in combat so far. The main positive reaction is that I really like that there are a lot of tools in the class kit, and they seem to require skill and thought, so I enjoy that direction.
I really like that healing requires a degree of combat skill (such as range/positioning/etc.) rather than simply being about managing resources. I think this is very important, especially when making the player choose between healing/attacking/defending/etc. so that it is engaging regardless of what choice is made. It also makes those choices more meaningful. I really like that healing is also applied to other types of non-healing skills such as offensive skills like the "consecrating wave". This allows for the healer to still heal even when engaging with the full combat system which is the perfect direction in my opinion. I hope the tab aspects are also skillful and engaging like the action skills seem to be.
B- Individual skills feedback:
mend
- I really like that there is consideration for more proactive/predictive aspects of gameplay. I love this ability for that reason, and the fact that it is a more efficient and "spammable" type of ability which keeps things engaging by weaving it between other more effective abilities.
deliverance
- really cool ability. I love the risk/reward aspect that a lower health of the target provides more healing value. Its also very interesting how it also scales over time as well, since you can plan ahead and begin charging in anticipation of the target losing more health, to get even more healing value than an instant heal.
Soothing glow
- I love the risk/reward aspect of deciding how long you want the heal to last, affecting how many charges you apply to the target, requiring you to plan ahead on whether to stack it on one target or spread out the healing. Its also really nice having a "fire and forget" type of healing skill that you can cast in anticipation of the future, while being able to focus on other things in the meantime.
flash cure
-I like it, its nice having burst healing options for emergency situations.
resplenendent beam
- Really cool to have chain healing abilities. This allows you to have a group healing option when you have a group formation that is more spread out, which is really nice when you want to heal during that situation. I hope the range of the "chain" aspect of this ability is practical for the type of spread out formations we might see in-game.
bless weapon
- soo happy to see this. I love the idea of being able to restore/sustain mana, and having that extra layer of mana management. I love that the sustainability encourages engagement with the enemy as well.
Judgement
a nice high risk/high reward option that requires planning ahead by charging for max value. Its also nice to have another burst option that is effective regardless of target hp, so I like having extra options like this.
communal restoration
- I like having the option to heal a more spread out group formation. Just concerned about the overall combat direction of "unavoidable" skills and associated counterplay skills, because it doesn't seem very skillful to go back and forth both dishing out unavoidable damage, then responding with automated healing skills. I feel there should be more of a skills based element at all times in both dealing damage and healing, while still retaining the use-cases such as communal restoration, where you can heal a spread out group formation, but in a more engaging way hopefully
consecrating wave
-awesome skill, I love directional/projectile based abilities like this where you have to guage the direction, range, and timing of your positioning to best use the ability. Its also really cool that there is both an offensive and support aspect to it.
- looks a bit easy to hit though as far as how wide the arc actually is, might be better to have to charge up the skill to get that wide of an arc, or just have a more narrow one
- divine flare
I really like the implications of this, by being able to incentivize certain team based formations through providing healing benefits
-barrier
I like that the cleric has a defensive option like this to add versatility to their healing centered kit.
-chains of restraint
a cool CC option that adds versatility to the kit which is nice. All classes should have both mobility and cc skills to manage their combat distance, so its good to see this capability.
-defiant light
a cool option for protection. the "death denial" effect sounds interesting.
-healing touch
again, I love when there are skills meant for different ranges, so this is cool to see. I love that positioning and range is important for landing the skill. I also love the risk/reward factor regarding the skill required to use vs the payoff.
-wings of salvation
glad to see at least one mobility skill. This one seems very easy to use, with very long range and auto-locking on the target. I hope others require some directional judgement or other type of skillful execution, such as a set amount of travel distance. It is cool to have an option specifically for allies though.
-divine infusion
I think this will encouraging players to seek out oportunities to build resource to increase their efficiency/effectiveness. I think this is good, because it promotes proactive play and taking initiative, which is more engaging and fun imo. Its also really interesting that you can use it to mix up your cast timing, which I think could be really good for encouraging that proactivity as well, by giving those aggressive players a way to counter players who rely to much on playing passively and reactively (campy).
- smite
sounds interesting, I like that the skill has a balancing aspect in relation to the distance its casted at. This helps to balance melee/ranged playstyles.
C- Extra thoughts:
-I was hoping to see more push/pull abilities, as a more universal type of combat interaction, even if certain classes can specialize in these more.
- I was very happy to see life leech and mana leech as skill/weapon effects. It would be great to see more of these in the class kits, potentially as standalone skills or maybe tied as side effects to other actions like blocks/dodges/etc.
- I was happy to hear them talk about giving tools for both predictive and react play, this is really important.
I lol'd at the bubble brothers bit. Bubble physics is a must for real though
2. Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I prefer a ton of situational abilities, so whichever method allows for the maximum amount. That being said, I am fine when these individual uses are combined into a less amount of overall skills that are more versatile in how they can be used (like in mario odyssey where you have a jump button but depending on how you perform the jump there are multiple types of different jump actions). I think this makes the info easier to teach and communicate to the player and more digestable to understand, and its easier to execute as well because of less buttons and things on the screen, through having more ways of using those buttons.
3. How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
To me, a charged ability is for planning ahead and using predictively. So "enough" charged abilities would depend on how many predictive situational tools you want to give the player. My general response to this is "as many as possible". You would want to empower the player with agency to be able to capitalize on a battle situation if they have the "read" on the opponent, which means they need to have a tool available to them to do so for that situation.
4. How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I like it. It is a form of agency by empowering the player with control and options to react with, which is good. It also helps provide less downtime during combat which is good for a faster pacing, and a more tactile/engaging feel, which I like as well.
5. What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
-I absolutely love that there seems to be a good amount of options at various ranges with niche uses. I hope you continue with this direction by really giving a ton of tools to the class that each have combat uses and effects for different ranges, directions, positions, and timings.
-Very happy to see healing takes skill, with ranged and positional healing abilities
6. What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable
The healers from Overwatch are too simplistic in their kit/gameplay but are still fun to play as. Here are some fun elements from some of them:
Mercy- its fun to follow around teammates while staying in a safe position, while trying to guage the flow of when to buff vs when to heal teammates
Ana- its fun to hit skill shots to heal teammates or sleep enemies. Its also fun to skillfully herd teammates and enemies together to land an aoe heal/damage
Zenyatta- its fun to think who to give your passive healing buff to, and who to support with your debuff
Brigette- its really fun to chase enemies around with a flailing melee weapon, and to have versatility with shield, armor, healing, and damage options
Kiriko- its fun to be able to reposition quickly and strategically with your teleport, and it is nice to have a "fire and forget" homing healing option.
Lifeweaver- it is always fun to try to track targets to land a flurry of rapidly fire projectiles. A vertical repositioning tool is fun and tactical as well. A dash ability keeps thing viceral and mobile which is fun and engaging during the flow of combat. Being able to help reposition allies by pulling them closer to your healing is fun. Its also fun that you can lay down a static object that has effects, which helps dominate the terrain with strategic positions/chokepoints, by having that area denial type of ability.
Lucio- it is very fun to weave around the battlefield with his skates that act as a mobility/climbing tool. Also having a knockback ability to push enemies away is very tactical and meaningful combat tool for creating space control, which is always fun. Its also fun being able to have an aoe healng that encourages grouping up, which can be useful for incentivizing a more consolidated team formation if the situation calls for it.
Moira- its fun managing your healing, because it is feuled by your damage, which creates a fun offensive/support combat flow and resource management. Things like this that can help incentivize enaging with all aspects of combat (offense/defense/mobility/support) are fun. Its also fun having a stealth option for tactical traversal.
7. Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
A- Hitbox bug?
I noticed a lot of the enemy attacks were landing even when out of range. This is an important thing that needs fixed.
B- Underwhelming mobility skills
Regrading the lack of mobility skills, not only does there need to be way more mobility and other "distance manipulation" abilities, but there should also be more of a need to use the existing ones. I was really hoping to see a variety of mobility options, so only seeing one was kind of disappointing. The overall combat still feels very static. There doesn't really feel like much of a need to move around, especially when mob attacks seem to land anyway, even if you are out of range. Even when movement is actually relevant, basic walking movement seems to always be sufficient, rather than having to use a variety of mobility and repositioning tools to get to the range and specific position you want to get too. Overall there should be more of a need to judge and manipulate distances between yourself and enemies/allies, as well as having more tools for doing so (like different types of pushes/pulls, gap closers/gap creators, all with different purposes and effects). This is a bit concerning because spacial considerations from the player are a big part of what makes fun combat, so it should be a core focus of the design rather than something that is just added on as an extra feature later.
C- Unavoidable abilities/massive AoE
I am concerned that there will be "unavoidable damage" and its associated counterplay. I don't think unavoidable damage is very engaging. It can undermine combat skill and force boring counterplay options, which seems more like a chore to me. I get concerned about this when I hear about unavoidable damage during encounters, homing tab abilities, and see huge "party healing" abilities. It just seems kind of "oonga boonga" to have this type of combat, and I feel like there are better ways to incentive a variety of role types and teamplay, without undermining combat skill/tactics/depth.
D- Tab vs action skill ceiling
lastly, im also slightly concerned about how engaging/skillful the tab skills will be. I really like the action based ones that iv'e seen, but I hope the tab ones will also be very skillful and fun to use.
Comments
That being said, even baseline can be mobile if the heals aren't too crazy. It all comes down to balance, but I enjoy the idea of having the option to sacrifice some things for others boons.
Also, even the option to play as a mobile group, or an immovable object is a good thing for gameplay. You can have a mobile group to move between objectives and a larger more stationary force that focuses a single area. Could be fun to have different builds that way.
There is nothing wrong with everyone being static like Runescape or Lineage but last I heard there was a desire to revolutionise the genre and that won't happen with static combat. To be fair, we need fast flow hybrid combat like GW2 but with the square rather than a trinity tacked on as an after thought - thats why you only need to have buffs and not rely on healing in GW2.
At the end of the day, I will play either iteration of the combat but a mish-mashed iteration will not be successful. It will cause cookie cutting because there's no planned animation cancels either. People don't like to be static unless everyone else is static. Casting an ability with a root is acceptable, rooting all casts is not the best approach. Thankfully, the devs have moved towards mobility in recent years.
sharing this here as well,
Also don't think I am saying EVERYTHING has to be static for cleric/cleric. I just don't think it should all be castable while moving around freely. Some can definitely be instant or just slower, and a few can be outright free movement. I just think there should be other augments to make the rest mobile at the cost of more effective heals, and the most effective heals should either restrict movement, or have a high cooldown.
I also asked for floor casts to be removed and hallowed ground has gone. There are many positives but the thread is for feedback. I'd rather not skirt around the issues and would rather highlight the issues for the team to mitigate. I've done my best with the limited material I have access to.
I really like the overall direction, and the variety of healing skill combinations.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I prefer versatility and creativity of use. I feel like specific use cases lend themselves to people memorizing a meta and imposing a specific style of play on others.
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
It depends on the class, but what I saw felt fine for a support/healer role.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I thought this was an amazing addition! I loved it in combination with the held abilities.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I typically main a support/healing role. I am excited to be able to juggle a combination of abilities and react to situations with flash spell rather than sit in a rotation.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I would say TTRPG clerics like Pathfinder or soft healing roles like Guardian in GW2. I prefer these archetypes because they mover the cleric into a more supportive role than just healing. I think it's fun keeping everyone topped up, buffed, and in the fight, but it is more fun when I can also contribute to damage or crowd control in between heals.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
The only thing that concerned me was the heal spell (divine flare?) that healed more/less depending on who was in the AoE. That seems like a recipe for grumpy players, and I think Steven even mentioned it is a great opportunity for soft friction. I would disagree. I think friction between groups is good, friction within groups is bad. Abilities like this could create an opportunities for passive aggression and toxic play as well as punish new/solo players that don't know all the mechanics.
i watched the live stream and the skills look ok (not good, not bad) individually, but i also feel that there should be a better balance between healing skills and damaging skills, i’d like to play a cleric but i’m not sure if i will be sufficiently entertained with the skills as they are, as a DDO cleric main (spent many days in the past with khopeshes in the front, as a warpriest of siberys should do) in the past i think playing a healbot is usually too boring, might as well train an ai to follow you around in game and be an actual healbot if thats the case. i guess could only know by play testing (soon hopefully)
Yeah but it's not an Attack like hallowed ground.
I have no qualms with a heal on the floor. I have qualms with damage on the floor. Fortunately, blizzard was changed too even though it coats the floor it's not a direct cast onto the floor. More of a positional cast on the floor.
Chains of Restraint:
Call forth spectral chains in a target area that stagger enemies within or stun enemies already under the staggered effect, then leave behind an area that deals radiant damage each second over 8 seconds.[2][3]
I'd say this is hallowed ground on steroids, I personally like floor casts and ground attacks, good to give cleric some AoE damage
Yeah I know about the chains but it was soft cc to my knowledge.
lets get cleric a few blade barriers 😎
As an avid healer main in almost every game I just want to say that at first glance I do believe the healing is feeling fairly weak. I would suggest bumping those numbers up. From the video I saw on twitter that little beam heal did almost no healing. In PvE the healing should be enough to get the entire team through a tough fight without the cleric having to panic much.
As a cleric their job is to buff, boost, heal and defend their allies. So I am hoping over timr we see what kind of buffs they are able to give as well as their defensives!
Also a good cleric is mobile! I do hope we are able to walk and heal at the same time. Repositioning while being able to heal will be a great benefit to any healer main out there!
Every class needs to be more mobile. I can't tell if it's Stevens gameplay or what.
It is in a good shape. Loving the spells so far.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I prefer the more versatile spells, single use spells could be to much to handle, if you have 20+ single use spell you need that many keybinds to reach them when they are needed and that could be difficult. plus remamber all while you checking your excel sheet for party/raid hp, avoide bad things, searching the player to pull yourself to do the melee *slap* heal (check if they are in fire or not).
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
Good question, for starter maybe 2 but depending on the effect it could be more.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
Very good approach, while casting a big heal I am able to send out some smol ones sound fantastic. Even if I can cast to one player and mouse over for others to flash them during the cast.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
Playing as healing
Playing against get their hp 0 before mine, interrupt the cast, imobilize them, CC.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
Ranged healer with ability to do harm as well. Can support the damage as well with buffs to the damage dealers.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
i am excited to try it out
First of all, where are the combat designers? Let us speak to them directly in these "Office Hours" so we understand what they are thinking. Or even bring Steven himself like the good old times.
◘ Class fantasy
You are the devs, why are you asking us about class fantasy when we don't know how the "64 classes" work yet? Shouldn't the secondary class system provide us with 8 different class fantasies, or am I expecting too much?
Using Mage as an easy example; one who wants to play Battlemage(mage/fighter) probably fantasizes about wielding a greatsword and doing big melee elemental AoEs with better mobility and sustain - at the cost of having shorter range.
Whereas a Spellhunter(Mage/Ranger) might want the opposite of that. Or Mage/Tank wants to play with a shield. They're all different fantasies of the same archetype.
I wish it was more than augmentations, so that a high APM Shadowcaster (mage/rogue) could have more skills to use than a low APM big damage Archwizard (mage/mage), not just shorter cooldowns. Different people want different class fantasies. Or they grow old or get injured and want a chill class. Can't even change archetype. Should they start over a new character from scratch? Be nice to the casuals and let people have fun.
Another question asked was about held abilities. Someone mentioned that held abilities are boring, it really is boring when a skill is used without being fully utilized, it feels wasted & unsatisfactory.
At least in BDO charging an attack keeps you protected from CC, and you could even do a dash before releasing it. And obviously not FOUR seconds long, but it can still be held after full charge at the cost of stamina just to get the right timing for it. < This is an idea you could use for Deliverance, although I'd rather you delete this skill altogether.
I suggest that you forget about "held abilities" and do "channelling" instead; meaning, the effect is immediate but gradual. It works well on an AoE barrier like Protective Wings from Archeage.
As you can see, it has 2 minutes cooldown, channeling skills are not meant to be spammed cuz it would be boring.
For healing, channeling heals gradually could be good on classes that don't have many options to heal (NOT ON CLERIC), like a Meditation skill emitting healing aura or self-heal.
For what? Healing? If we're talking about Deliverance, it can't get more stationary than spamming a 4 seconds stationary skill. I said this skill needs to go away; and said in 3 big words "Not on Cleric" about channeling heals.
If the devs want Fighter to self-heal by staying stationary, I think it is fine.
Cleric has plenty of others heals. A stationary skill should be something special with long cooldown. Single-target healing skill on healer class is not special. I mentioned AoE barrier for Cleric as an example.
There is a difference between a class having only 1 long cooldown Stationary skill vs Stationary playstyle.
It doesn't make sense to have casting time AT ALL on a skill that you're supposed to use on a near-death target. Consecrating Wave doesn't even require clicking on a target. It's much more reliable in this situation.
Honestly I feel very excited, I love how it appears to feel with multiple options, managing multiple resources, and using your positioning as a augment to your play. It just seems well thought out and cared for in general.
Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
I love the idea of having a versatile toolkit. Having buttons that sit waiting for a very specific time to use just feels like clutter in all honesty. Also I have the feeling that multiple players could look at this exact same tool kit and create completely different ideas on how to implement them and that's just plain exciting. We haven't even reached the point of full classes or augmentations and I can already see different playstyles coming from this alone. Fantastic
How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
I personally feel that charge abilities are a good mix in to just spice things up a bit; however saturation could come quick (at least to my own preferences). Around 25% is a good feel for me with some of those being core rotational and some for cooldown/support.
How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
I love these types of abilities, they really allow for some custom gameplay to happen and give players more options on the fly. It just feels good and using things like these sparingly in design gives some pizazz to the playstyle.
What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
I always love and appreciate the spice that great support abilities bring into a fight especially in group on group PVP. They really can change the pace and ebb and flow of a battle and the stories that come from insane plays and saves live on forever.
What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable.
I personally just love the idea and aesthetic of cleric archetypes in general. Something about gold magic.
Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
I'm just excited to see the cleric archetype mix with the others to create some very interesting classes.
A- Initial reaction:
I really like that healing requires a degree of combat skill (such as range/positioning/etc.) rather than simply being about managing resources. I think this is very important, especially when making the player choose between healing/attacking/defending/etc. so that it is engaging regardless of what choice is made. It also makes those choices more meaningful. I really like that healing is also applied to other types of non-healing skills such as offensive skills like the "consecrating wave". This allows for the healer to still heal even when engaging with the full combat system which is the perfect direction in my opinion. I hope the tab aspects are also skillful and engaging like the action skills seem to be.
B- Individual skills feedback:
- I really like that there is consideration for more proactive/predictive aspects of gameplay. I love this ability for that reason, and the fact that it is a more efficient and "spammable" type of ability which keeps things engaging by weaving it between other more effective abilities.
deliverance
- really cool ability. I love the risk/reward aspect that a lower health of the target provides more healing value. Its also very interesting how it also scales over time as well, since you can plan ahead and begin charging in anticipation of the target losing more health, to get even more healing value than an instant heal.
Soothing glow
- I love the risk/reward aspect of deciding how long you want the heal to last, affecting how many charges you apply to the target, requiring you to plan ahead on whether to stack it on one target or spread out the healing. Its also really nice having a "fire and forget" type of healing skill that you can cast in anticipation of the future, while being able to focus on other things in the meantime.
flash cure
-I like it, its nice having burst healing options for emergency situations.
resplenendent beam
- Really cool to have chain healing abilities. This allows you to have a group healing option when you have a group formation that is more spread out, which is really nice when you want to heal during that situation. I hope the range of the "chain" aspect of this ability is practical for the type of spread out formations we might see in-game.
bless weapon
- soo happy to see this. I love the idea of being able to restore/sustain mana, and having that extra layer of mana management. I love that the sustainability encourages engagement with the enemy as well.
Judgement
a nice high risk/high reward option that requires planning ahead by charging for max value. Its also nice to have another burst option that is effective regardless of target hp, so I like having extra options like this.
communal restoration
- I like having the option to heal a more spread out group formation. Just concerned about the overall combat direction of "unavoidable" skills and associated counterplay skills, because it doesn't seem very skillful to go back and forth both dishing out unavoidable damage, then responding with automated healing skills. I feel there should be more of a skills based element at all times in both dealing damage and healing, while still retaining the use-cases such as communal restoration, where you can heal a spread out group formation, but in a more engaging way hopefully
consecrating wave
-awesome skill, I love directional/projectile based abilities like this where you have to guage the direction, range, and timing of your positioning to best use the ability. Its also really cool that there is both an offensive and support aspect to it.
- looks a bit easy to hit though as far as how wide the arc actually is, might be better to have to charge up the skill to get that wide of an arc, or just have a more narrow one
- divine flare
I really like the implications of this, by being able to incentivize certain team based formations through providing healing benefits
-barrier
I like that the cleric has a defensive option like this to add versatility to their healing centered kit.
-chains of restraint
a cool CC option that adds versatility to the kit which is nice. All classes should have both mobility and cc skills to manage their combat distance, so its good to see this capability.
-defiant light
a cool option for protection. the "death denial" effect sounds interesting.
-healing touch
again, I love when there are skills meant for different ranges, so this is cool to see. I love that positioning and range is important for landing the skill. I also love the risk/reward factor regarding the skill required to use vs the payoff.
-wings of salvation
glad to see at least one mobility skill. This one seems very easy to use, with very long range and auto-locking on the target. I hope others require some directional judgement or other type of skillful execution, such as a set amount of travel distance. It is cool to have an option specifically for allies though.
-divine infusion
I think this will encouraging players to seek out oportunities to build resource to increase their efficiency/effectiveness. I think this is good, because it promotes proactive play and taking initiative, which is more engaging and fun imo. Its also really interesting that you can use it to mix up your cast timing, which I think could be really good for encouraging that proactivity as well, by giving those aggressive players a way to counter players who rely to much on playing passively and reactively (campy).
- smite
sounds interesting, I like that the skill has a balancing aspect in relation to the distance its casted at. This helps to balance melee/ranged playstyles.
C- Extra thoughts:
- I was very happy to see life leech and mana leech as skill/weapon effects. It would be great to see more of these in the class kits, potentially as standalone skills or maybe tied as side effects to other actions like blocks/dodges/etc.
- I was happy to hear them talk about giving tools for both predictive and react play, this is really important.
I lol'd at the bubble brothers bit. Bubble physics is a must for real though
2. Do you prefer abilities that have more single and specific uses, or abilities that have versatility with how they can be used?
3. How many held abilities (think abilities you hold down or charge) do you prefer in an Archetype kit?
4. How do you feel about being able to use Flash Cure during other abilities?
5. What excites you about playing as, with, or against the Cleric Archetype?
-Very happy to see healing takes skill, with ranged and positional healing abilities
6. What are your favorite Cleric archetypes in other games? Please provide examples when applicable
Mercy- its fun to follow around teammates while staying in a safe position, while trying to guage the flow of when to buff vs when to heal teammates
Ana- its fun to hit skill shots to heal teammates or sleep enemies. Its also fun to skillfully herd teammates and enemies together to land an aoe heal/damage
Zenyatta- its fun to think who to give your passive healing buff to, and who to support with your debuff
Brigette- its really fun to chase enemies around with a flailing melee weapon, and to have versatility with shield, armor, healing, and damage options
Kiriko- its fun to be able to reposition quickly and strategically with your teleport, and it is nice to have a "fire and forget" homing healing option.
Lifeweaver- it is always fun to try to track targets to land a flurry of rapidly fire projectiles. A vertical repositioning tool is fun and tactical as well. A dash ability keeps thing viceral and mobile which is fun and engaging during the flow of combat. Being able to help reposition allies by pulling them closer to your healing is fun. Its also fun that you can lay down a static object that has effects, which helps dominate the terrain with strategic positions/chokepoints, by having that area denial type of ability.
Lucio- it is very fun to weave around the battlefield with his skates that act as a mobility/climbing tool. Also having a knockback ability to push enemies away is very tactical and meaningful combat tool for creating space control, which is always fun. Its also fun being able to have an aoe healng that encourages grouping up, which can be useful for incentivizing a more consolidated team formation if the situation calls for it.
Moira- its fun managing your healing, because it is feuled by your damage, which creates a fun offensive/support combat flow and resource management. Things like this that can help incentivize enaging with all aspects of combat (offense/defense/mobility/support) are fun. Its also fun having a stealth option for tactical traversal.
7. Is there anything in particular you’re excited, or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Cleric Archetype?
A- Hitbox bug?
B- Underwhelming mobility skills
C- Unavoidable abilities/massive AoE
D- Tab vs action skill ceiling