Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Well I'm not really talking about first person shooters but since you brought them up there are first person shooters with roles, Apex is an easy one to point out, Overwatch isn't an MMORPG either and it still has roles.
Ashes wouldn't stop being an mmorpg just because of the combat system, nothing stops people from taking up a role or the trinity if they had to simply aim.
I too am hoping for a hybrid system, which is why I made the thread. I rather not have output RNG in a highly competitive environment, thats fine for Dungeon Crawlers, it isn't fine for the genre in the modern age.
Combat system can push what is advertised as an RPG too close to a shooter or some kind of hybrid genre that is not really an RPG.
The very fast nature of the game and other mechanics may make the game as a whole a bit more “twitchy” but I’m speaking about the targeting mechanics in the game not the game as a whole. I would watch the video to understand better.
"Armored Core is a third-person shooter mecha video game..."
https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/everything-we-know-about-the-armored-core-6-1736918/
"The Armored Core series is a third-person shooter that involves monolithic mechs blasting and bashing each other into oblivion."
Same difference...
Just because combat is fun in one game genre does not mean it fits well with every other game genre.
A key aspect of RPGs is not just combat roles, but having enough reaction time to synergize your character's abilities with the individual abilities of the other characters in your group/party.
Combat has to be slow enough to allow for that.
But also, in an RPG, character knowledge and character skills are intended to be more important than player knowledge and player (twitch/dex) skills.
I'm not sure if you've played it, but those explanations are an oversimplification of Armored Core games.
They would absolutely work in the same way, it's just that Game Journalists gotta game journal.
Semantics again, but in case it ever matters to you, don't take that whole 'Third Person shooter' thing seriously for Armored Core... like... at ALL.
Just no professionals want to call it an RPG?
IF for some reason Intrepid were to very seriously look toward Armored Core as inspiration for things in any way, and if the combat design somehow moved even closer to that of Armored Core than it currently is, I personally have no doubt whatsoever that Dygz would appreciate it and find it refreshing because it's exactly the reverse situation of what normally brings us to this point.
Armored Core is very much 'A so called shooter game that often plays considerably more like an RPG', to the point where I'm sure there would be people out there who consider it too heavy on the RPG style.
My brother's AC is a 'Mage'. Mine is a 'Rogue'. It's really really clear, they're absolutely nothing alike either in playstyle or in appearance/builds. Neither of them actually needs the single 'gun' they carry, and neither of them requires one to aim anything more than say, Consecrating Wave does.
I lay out all this because once again, I would hate us to derail based on a lack of information leading into a loop.
It's way too much action - too fast - to be a good fit for an RPG.
What I saw in the Alpha Two Cleric Archetype Update hits my sweet-spot for speed.
Can you watch at the time stamp please so you can have a better understanding of how the targeting system works? I see now you have done this
Ignore the big mecha/guns theme. Just focus on the targeting. Armored Core is definitely an entirely different game than a fantasy rpg.
I will be extremely surprised if Elden ring 2 doesn’t end up with a very similar targeting system after it gets fine tuned in AC6.
I can only say two things and leave it at those.
1. If I had to answer 'yes/no' to your question of if it's an RPG, I'd go with 'yes'.
2. I only ask you to consider if a Rogue in Neverwinter is also too much action to be a good fit for an RPG, if so, I have no point.
Armored Core looks faster than that.
But, sure, if Armored Core combat feels like NWO... we agree.
One still has a role, regardless if someone is rolling a dice (RNG) or a game is completely deterministic.
Just like the combat system doesn't stop anyone from being in character.
GW2 mesmer is one of the best designed classes in the entire genre, a top 3 for sure.
i think is said that some skills will allow you to just aim and shoot without clicking on a target. i think it was on the ranger's showcase?
You can "free fire", whether or not that acts as an actual missile or not remains to be seen.
If you go back and look at the ranged showcase in the "action mode", you can see that you do not need to be on target in order to hit the target.
If it was aiming and clicking, that means I'd be able to lead my target.
For combat, it’s less about ‘role’ playing and more about ‘roll’ playing. In a shooter, my skill to aim accurately and group my shots is based on my ability as a player. In an RPG, aiming accurately and killing my target is based on my character’s abilities and skill.
If my Ranger has a significantly higher dexterity score than your Ranger, and you’re hitting me more often because I - as a player - can’t aim well, then we are playing an FPS not an RPG.
This is what I liked about Neverwinter’s hybrid tab system. Rolls are still at the center of my character’s combat effectiveness.
Ranger basic attack? Tab. If needed, accuracy can additionally depend on a passive stat.
Melee basic attack? Action. Reach depends on weapon length.
Dash/charge? Action.
1. Camera controls.
They do have an assist mode though a lot of things are / feel free there is soft lock targeting. Meaning players need to look int he direction they want to attack and have some level of skill when it comes to tracking and keeping pace of the thing they wish to target. This is perfectly find in action combat, it doesn't mean t is tab suddenly either. The feeling of tab vrs action are worlds apart here, and that feeling is what people seek and want with the skill curve that comes with it. So again it comes down to how the camera controls function with the game play and feeling like a more smooth and immersive experience.
2. AOE skills
Though BDO is action oriented the weaker element is how they do it in making a lot of skills large and aoe based. More of more of this makes it lose the tactical element and feel of gameplay. Too much can start to make things feel messy and reduce the element of combat imo.
Personally i feel toned down aoe sizes would be better and players need to be more accurate to land their hits and you wouldn't feel like it is aoe everywhere. For BDO though this is impossible to adjust now because of the design of the game and the power/speed crep that has been happening over the life of the game. Large aoes work better because you have classes that zoom across and nothing to really limit movement with all cancels that are available. BDO is part the point of smaller sizes since you would just fell useless in combat and why you most likely won't see a reduction to aoe sizes and new classes having large ones.
3. Flow of combat
One of the reasons why BDO feels good is a mix of camera but also more importantly the flow of combat. Because able to cancel your moves, the way skills mix into each other feeling like a chain akin to a fighting game, being able to react quickly and mix up your variations in a very organic way.
Though it feels good and like butter when you know what you are doing part of this can lead to issues with the aoe when you give players too much power in terms of their skills. Allowing players to escape out of anything at almost all point. Slowing down combat and some restrictions on the feeling of flow would be needed, else you get like bdo were you are just speeding up and things get messy.
So to summarize people that talk about BDO's combat is in relation to the camera and the feeling of flow they have. Aoe attacks and special effects are extra flare, and it is fireworks at this point how most people might see it. Animations in BDO are clean and feel very impactful with the rest of the combat (animations are always very important imo in terms of action)
The majority of the development team were absorbed by Blizzard and worked on the development of Dragonflight which is arguably one of their most successful expansions since Legion.
Trying to have both will result in 1 being ignored and everyone using the other due it being easier/superior. For healing, tab targeting actually makes more sense, I wouldn't expect everything needing to be aimed. Still would like to see projectile based heals and forward facing linear ground effects, similar to forward cones.
There are a lot of different games they could take inspiration from, Tera, Wildstar, League of Legends, Spellbreak is cool. I know it's not going to be a full fledged Action game and I'm ok with that, I just want a better mix than what we have currently.
I use League as an example because there are a great mix of skill shots and AOEs. Probably half are single target, do the aiming for you and require you to be locked on including basic attacks.
They also have a mix of projectiles that pierce through multiple targets and those that stop after they hit something which I think would be great for an MMO.
AFAIK the Devs have not talked about action combat other than untargeted abilities like cone/line attacks. Action targeting is using the reticle to pick your target, but in other respects acts just like you picked the target via tab. I think it was in the Ranger reveal that they talked about action targeting will even included a target lock option where you would press a key when your reticle is over whoever you want to target-lock.
Tab target is just fine for showcasing, and we're seeing that for now. But I don't expect action targeting to be greatly different in functionality, just more convenient to pick a specific target out of a crowd.
Tanks being able to block other characters from being targeted via proximity (ala a Guard ability) or LoS (with a big shield equipped) is a fantastic idea for PvP, and is probably worthy of a thread of it's own. I like that much more than tanks being able to force you to target them
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56029/feedback-request-alpha-two-cleric-archetype-updates-shown-in-july-livestream/p1
That's where I'm really going with this, I'd like to see them build 1 skill, it act like a tab skill in the tab window then when I hit the action combat toggle, it be a full fledged action skill that is aimed.
Or when they say the action window, something like their BR combat, which only needed time to cook.
An action game without aiming and precision isn't a real action game, it's a sales pitch; so really TERA, Darkfall, Ashes BR, Conq Blade, Valheim etc are the best side by sides we can put against when looking at things through the action toggle.
Just like, when we are in tab mode/toggle, people expect it to be tab.
Those distinctions are incredibly important.
Working on it, going to find have to find all of the things I've read about how variables are coded in 3d space.
https://web.archive.org/web/20121102045730/http://www.enmasse.com/blog/posts/tera-reshaping-mmo-combat
Got sent this gem to me, this is the start.
So, mastery will always be my end game; added benefits are adding that extra layer of immersion to make it feel like my abilities actually matter.
Aiming, Precision, Accurizing will always add more to the skill ceiling, never subtract from it.
Passive Defensive stats lower and inhibit the skill ceiling, they chain the combat systems potential for mastery.
Players who will whiff their abilities or not be bothered to actually master something anyway, that's a them problem. Putting things in the hands of the player drives the competition.
I do not think GCD, CD management and DR management are not hard concepts to master.
Rotations are sequence memorization, that's not really anything for a veteran to master either.
You can only play tab so long before you master it.
Action raises that ceiling, adds more to master to the combat system.
I don’t think Ashes should be easy to play and I definitely think it should take a long time to master.
And unless action skills are super OP in their effects, everyone will just use tab instead, because they simply can't utilize action to its full potential.
And making action an aoe-fest would obviously go against your preferences, so I'm assuming you wouldn't want that.