I don’t think Ashes should be easy to play and I definitely think it should take a long time to master.
How hard should it be though? The target audience is already fairly small. Adding a high skill floor will only reduce that audience further.
And unless action skills are super OP in their effects, everyone will just use tab instead, because they simply can't utilize action to its full potential.
And making action an aoe-fest would obviously go against your preferences, so I'm assuming you wouldn't want that.
I tend to feel the same regarding Action/Tab discussions. In all the iterations I have ever seen, one is "superior" and then everyone else adopts. I am interested in the design space they are choosing (Lightning orb, cone aoe heal/damage) since it retains some semblance of skill in targeting without making it Amazons mess of a game where healers literally refused to take any non-targeted heals because they just weren't reliable. God just typing about the skillshot healing abilities in that game is giving me hives...
One thing I wish was possible would be to have a way to keep my tab target while using an ability on another target with the reticle. Even if it meant setting a default mode of use for each ability or UI slot.
Quick example: cleric keeps the tank in tab target while firing their offensive abilities using the reticle. Or the opposite if it was the way they preferred.
I don’t think Ashes should be easy to play and I definitely think it should take a long time to master.
How hard should it be though? The target audience is already fairly small. Adding a high skill floor will only reduce that audience further.
This is what I feel would be the best way to implement a high skill ceiling game, the game ideally should teach people and encourage people to learn their class as they level through the game.
And it does go against what I like as a veteran in terms of difficulty, I wont waiver on the ceiling, but the floor we must be realistic about and it must have mechanisms and windows for learning.
But I think being able to pass down knowledge to newer players or players whom haven't been at it for the years I have suffices too, because a key facet of my mastery can be determined by my ability to teach a player still on the road to mastery.
And unless action skills are super OP in their effects, everyone will just use tab instead, because they simply can't utilize action to its full potential.
They had a plan for that, hard CC wasn't supposed to be used in tab target, soft CC was.
Hard CC was supposed to be used in the action combat.
I think that idea was good and only needed to be expanded upon and time to bake in the oven.
And making action an aoe-fest would obviously go against your preferences, so I'm assuming you wouldn't want that.
AoE in most games, tab or action has been fundamentally implemented poorly, if AoE doesn't scale to appropriate levels of damage then it's going to be a shit show.
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HumblePuffinMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
AoE in most games, tab or action has been fundamentally implemented poorly, if AoE doesn't scale to appropriate levels of damage then it's going to be a shit show.
We had variable damage on the ground targeting AoE so hopefully you will get that wish
AoE in most games, tab or action has been fundamentally implemented poorly, if AoE doesn't scale to appropriate levels of damage then it's going to be a shit show.
We had variable damage on the ground targeting AoE so hopefully you will get that wish
My wish is that Intrepid considers all things and sticks to hard CC for action combat and soft CC for tab combat and just lets them keep it in the oven till we get something glorious.
But Intrepids ability to create something glorious has never been questioned, will they create something with a high skill ceiling, is the question.
Action hard CC and tab soft CC sounds good, as long as they're separate abilities, rather than having to choose either the action way or the tab way for the same ability, that decision affecting its performance.
Action hard CC and tab soft CC sounds good, as long as they're separate abilities, rather than having to choose either the action way or the tab way for the same ability, that decision affecting its performance.
I don't think I'd be about that. I think people should make a conscious choice.
Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.
Guess it's great that AoC is not an action combat game
Action hard CC and tab soft CC sounds good, as long as they're separate abilities, rather than having to choose either the action way or the tab way for the same ability, that decision affecting its performance.
I don't think I'd be about that. I think people should make a conscious choice.
The conscious choice would be to use the more effective option. If you're not using it, you're missing out on effectiveness, that's pretty simple. Therefore, it's not a choice at all. Sure, tab players may have a hard time hitting the action ability, but having to fall back to a less effective method will only increase their dissatisfaction with the system.
Both tab and action abilities should compliment each other, making it a proper hybrid, not have the players "choose" between better and worse options.
And that's it. A player will be idling most of the time once they learn how to heal because they have a lot of tools and very few offensive spells on relatively long cds.
Outside of all the other abilities we haven't been shown, because they're not in the alpha yet, Intrepid could also design their mobs in a way where healers don't just sit on their ass all the time simply because they don't need to heal.
Healing in L2 was quite frantic, especially considering that you always want to have some mana in case a pvp fight breaks out. I know that nowadays everyone's used to constant full mana, but Steven is obviously going for a much more oldschool approach in that regard.
Also, there's still no weapon passives, so we have no clue how healers will interact with that.
Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.
I've been a pure healer in an action combat game though.
Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.
Guess it's great that AoC is not an action combat game
It'd be great if we can get a hybrid that's in the middle ground.
Action hard CC and tab soft CC sounds good, as long as they're separate abilities, rather than having to choose either the action way or the tab way for the same ability, that decision affecting its performance.
I don't think I'd be about that. I think people should make a conscious choice.
The conscious choice would be to use the more effective option. If you're not using it, you're missing out on effectiveness, that's pretty simple. Therefore, it's not a choice at all. Sure, tab players may have a hard time hitting the action ability, but having to fall back to a less effective method will only increase their dissatisfaction with the system.
Both tab and action abilities should compliment each other, making it a proper hybrid, not have the players "choose" between better and worse options.
Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off.
So there's going to be a measure of dissatisfaction anyway.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It'd be great if we can get a hybrid that's in the middle ground.
Steven says that's his goal.
The latest demo was just showing off Healing Active Skills that were newly implemented.
I don't think it was necessarily intended to show a typical Cleric build.
Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.
I've been a pure healer in an action combat game though.
Feel free to give an example of the games where you were `pure` healing with action combat.
You could pure heal in Darkfall Unholy Wars and the healers in TERA might have had some “dps” abilities but they weren’t doing much outside of their role.
That could have changed after I started playing, but I quit before reapers launched.
It'd be great if we can get a hybrid that's in the middle ground.
Steven says that's his goal.
The latest demo was just showing off Healing Active Skills that were newly implemented.
I don't think it was necessarily intended to show a typical Cleric build.
I’m not sure how they plan to do that unless all of the skills we have seen are pure action abilities.
Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off.
Not if those abilities are separate and don't compete with each other. Again, to clarify, the ability would be locked to be either tab or action. Think using some dagger throw ability (tab) to pull a mob, then use a spin ability (action) afterwards to DPS. The abilities you choose from the skill tree wouldn't depend much on whether they're tab or action, but on their effect. You'd use both tab and action abilities in a fight.
How do we go from seeing the cleric show case and thinking they can't exist because of action combat o.O. What does that have to do with healing your team from dmg. I feel like so many people just lurk to complain about non existent things.
Healing looks good, healing looks like there is going to be a high skill ceiling and a a good healer vrs a non good one is going to be huge in any form of pvp.
How do we go from seeing the cleric show case and thinking they can't exist because of action combat o.O. What does that have to do with healing your team from dmg. I feel like so many people just lurk to complain about non existent things.
Healing looks good, healing looks like there is going to be a high skill ceiling and a a good healer vrs a non good one is going to be huge in any form of pvp.
I have absolutely no clue you might want to ask them.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off.
So there's going to be a measure of dissatisfaction anyway.
I mean...
I hope that Action Combat does not just mean Active Skills that use reticle aim.
From NWO, I sometimes like to Active Dodge and Active Roll - as an aspect of RPing my character.
Technically, my character should be better at Dodging than my keyboard/mouse motor skills if I max my points into Dodge, but... sometimes still feels good to see my character Active Dodge behind a barrier and have a ranged attack blocked.
I love Active Block in Valheim. I think, originally, the devs were planning not to have Active Block, but looks like we might get to test it during Alpha 2.
How do we go from seeing the cleric show case and thinking they can't exist because of action combat o.O. What does that have to do with healing your team from dmg. I feel like so many people just lurk to complain about non existent things.
Healing looks good, healing looks like there is going to be a high skill ceiling and a a good healer vrs a non good one is going to be huge in any form of pvp.
Odd cause I had the opposite feedback. Healing seems a bit OP to me as a longtime healer. I mean they made improvements over the last time we saw Cleric so that was great, but certainly not high skill ceiling.
As for the first comment, truly a lot of games have implemented action combat poorly from a healer's perspective, if they even had true healers at all (which many didn't). So I can understand if the commenter has only seen or played a few of these, why they'd think healers wouldn't work. I've seen games do it but very few well (TERA was the best), so I'm especially concerned about how it will look here. So far all I'm seeing is essentially tab target combat with few action styled abilities, and it doesn't look like it will work in reticle mode. So this topic is an important one.
Edit: Ashes Twitter account let me know that mana management will be an important skill for healers to master so taking that into account, they may not be so OP after all. Will depend on how they balance it. TBD!
Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off.
So there's going to be a measure of dissatisfaction anyway.
I mean...
I hope that Action Combat does not just mean Active Skills that use reticle aim.
From NWO, I sometimes like to Active Dodge and Active Roll - as an aspect of RPing my character.
Technically, my character should be better at Dodging than my keyboard/mouse motor skills if I max my points into Dodge, but... sometimes still feels good to see my character Active Dodge behind a barrier and have a ranged attack blocked.
I love Active Block in Valheim. I think, originally, the devs were planning not to have Active Block, but looks like we might get to test it during Alpha 2.
Yeah I love active block in Valheim too man, to me its the best version of block I've ever seen.
Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off.
So there's going to be a measure of dissatisfaction anyway.
I mean...
I hope that Action Combat does not just mean Active Skills that use reticle aim.
From NWO, I sometimes like to Active Dodge and Active Roll - as an aspect of RPing my character.
Technically, my character should be better at Dodging than my keyboard/mouse motor skills if I max my points into Dodge, but... sometimes still feels good to see my character Active Dodge behind a barrier and have a ranged attack blocked.
I love Active Block in Valheim. I think, originally, the devs were planning not to have Active Block, but looks like we might get to test it during Alpha 2.
*attempts to paralyze dygz and make him unable to dodge and block unless he uses his keyboard*
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And that's it. A player will be idling most of the time once they learn how to heal because they have a lot of tools and very few offensive spells on relatively long cds.
So, this seems unintuitive.
If you are finding yourself without much to do, if you are running raid content, your issue is that the raid has too many healers.
If you are running raid content, why are you running as a full healer? It isn't needed in any game I have ever played. With the exception of WoW, healers in group content are expected to perform a few other tasks as well (buffing, debuffing, even some CC in some games).
If you are going in to group content with a full healer spec in these games, you will find yourself being bored, but only because you aren't doing the other parts of your job.
Full healer spec in basically all games that I have played has only been warranted on raid content.
It's that if the reticle does not NEED to be aimed there's balance issues for some.
This is why I'm gonna try tera. BDO was an aoe fest and outside of guns in NW, iirc, it was the same. And we've seen that Ashes will have cone aoes too, so that's "action". I guess placing a thing on the ground requires less precision than a gun/bow shot, so even though it's an "action" move it's not really enough for the action players, but then does it mean that only ranged precision shots can be considered "action"? And the game's requirement for you to aim precisely then determines how "action" the game is?
Cause iirc BDO's bows have soft tab, right? So would that mean that BDO is barely even an action game? My mind just doesn't seem to work in a way where it sees the difference between an action ability in a tab game and a whole game full of action abilities that seemingly function in the same way, yet people complain that those abilities are not "action" or that they don't contribute towards the game being a hybrid.
Would a high-skill reticle-based ranged-weapon-only heal be considered a proper "action" ability then? Cause ironically enough even NW had fucking tab targeting for their healing (unless they added a ranged reticle heal after the release).
That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target.
Comments
I tend to feel the same regarding Action/Tab discussions. In all the iterations I have ever seen, one is "superior" and then everyone else adopts. I am interested in the design space they are choosing (Lightning orb, cone aoe heal/damage) since it retains some semblance of skill in targeting without making it Amazons mess of a game where healers literally refused to take any non-targeted heals because they just weren't reliable. God just typing about the skillshot healing abilities in that game is giving me hives...
Quick example: cleric keeps the tank in tab target while firing their offensive abilities using the reticle. Or the opposite if it was the way they preferred.
This is what I feel would be the best way to implement a high skill ceiling game, the game ideally should teach people and encourage people to learn their class as they level through the game.
And it does go against what I like as a veteran in terms of difficulty, I wont waiver on the ceiling, but the floor we must be realistic about and it must have mechanisms and windows for learning.
But I think being able to pass down knowledge to newer players or players whom haven't been at it for the years I have suffices too, because a key facet of my mastery can be determined by my ability to teach a player still on the road to mastery.
Guilds/Colleges did that in the ancient times.
They had a plan for that, hard CC wasn't supposed to be used in tab target, soft CC was.
Hard CC was supposed to be used in the action combat.
I think that idea was good and only needed to be expanded upon and time to bake in the oven.
AoE in most games, tab or action has been fundamentally implemented poorly, if AoE doesn't scale to appropriate levels of damage then it's going to be a shit show.
We had variable damage on the ground targeting AoE so hopefully you will get that wish
My wish is that Intrepid considers all things and sticks to hard CC for action combat and soft CC for tab combat and just lets them keep it in the oven till we get something glorious.
But Intrepids ability to create something glorious has never been questioned, will they create something with a high skill ceiling, is the question.
I don't think I'd be about that. I think people should make a conscious choice.
Both tab and action abilities should compliment each other, making it a proper hybrid, not have the players "choose" between better and worse options.
Healing in L2 was quite frantic, especially considering that you always want to have some mana in case a pvp fight breaks out. I know that nowadays everyone's used to constant full mana, but Steven is obviously going for a much more oldschool approach in that regard.
Also, there's still no weapon passives, so we have no clue how healers will interact with that.
I've been a pure healer in an action combat game though.
It'd be great if we can get a hybrid that's in the middle ground.
Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off.
So there's going to be a measure of dissatisfaction anyway.
The latest demo was just showing off Healing Active Skills that were newly implemented.
I don't think it was necessarily intended to show a typical Cleric build.
You could pure heal in Darkfall Unholy Wars and the healers in TERA might have had some “dps” abilities but they weren’t doing much outside of their role.
That could have changed after I started playing, but I quit before reapers launched.
I’m not sure how they plan to do that unless all of the skills we have seen are pure action abilities.
Healing looks good, healing looks like there is going to be a high skill ceiling and a a good healer vrs a non good one is going to be huge in any form of pvp.
I have absolutely no clue you might want to ask them.
I hope that Action Combat does not just mean Active Skills that use reticle aim.
From NWO, I sometimes like to Active Dodge and Active Roll - as an aspect of RPing my character.
Technically, my character should be better at Dodging than my keyboard/mouse motor skills if I max my points into Dodge, but... sometimes still feels good to see my character Active Dodge behind a barrier and have a ranged attack blocked.
I love Active Block in Valheim. I think, originally, the devs were planning not to have Active Block, but looks like we might get to test it during Alpha 2.
Odd cause I had the opposite feedback. Healing seems a bit OP to me as a longtime healer. I mean they made improvements over the last time we saw Cleric so that was great, but certainly not high skill ceiling.
As for the first comment, truly a lot of games have implemented action combat poorly from a healer's perspective, if they even had true healers at all (which many didn't). So I can understand if the commenter has only seen or played a few of these, why they'd think healers wouldn't work. I've seen games do it but very few well (TERA was the best), so I'm especially concerned about how it will look here. So far all I'm seeing is essentially tab target combat with few action styled abilities, and it doesn't look like it will work in reticle mode. So this topic is an important one.
Edit: Ashes Twitter account let me know that mana management will be an important skill for healers to master so taking that into account, they may not be so OP after all. Will depend on how they balance it. TBD!
Yeah I love active block in Valheim too man, to me its the best version of block I've ever seen.
*attempts to paralyze dygz and make him unable to dodge and block unless he uses his keyboard*
I'll just let people kill me if they want to. I'll be completely ignoring PvP.
If you are finding yourself without much to do, if you are running raid content, your issue is that the raid has too many healers.
If you are running raid content, why are you running as a full healer? It isn't needed in any game I have ever played. With the exception of WoW, healers in group content are expected to perform a few other tasks as well (buffing, debuffing, even some CC in some games).
If you are going in to group content with a full healer spec in these games, you will find yourself being bored, but only because you aren't doing the other parts of your job.
Full healer spec in basically all games that I have played has only been warranted on raid content.
You come off as a riposte and parry type of guy anyway.
That's cause action combat healing(In my opinion as a healer/support main) is awful. I've never seen it done in a way that is better(satisfying?) than tab target. Healing is always good but it doesn't always feel good. The problem with action healing specifically is the lack of priority targeting. It's really easy to say just make it a skill shot or make it an AoE which is either boring or just feels bad when you have a lot of players involved. I mean specifically AoE healing feels unsatisfying to heal one target. Skill shot healing struggles once you add enough people to something like a raid or a siege. What I'm saying is no one has really solved the problem of action healing feeling bad compared to tab target.