Combat and Class feedback

With the direction of the classes starting to take shape, I think there is a level of importance to see how the class kits are going to act across this hybrid system.

Tab abilities and action abilities are coded and calculate differently across 3d space. While it is nice to see what the mostly tab portion of the game is going to look like, I have a hard time seeing the vision for the action portion. It seems like the action portion of what is supposed to look like either doesn't exist or may become secondary.

If anyone has ever played GW2 they would know that its tab game with a reticle toggle added later to mimic the “feel” of action combat. It’s still tab with the illusion of a hybrid system.

If I were to take the Cleric showcase now and do a side by side comparison to action games such as TERA, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Conq Blade, Valheim and look at the abilities and see if they behave and interact in the same way I can easily say those abilities don’t really behave nor are they coded the same way as the abilities in the titles I’ve listed.

It would be really grand to see the comparisons and the breakdowns in a livestream to see how one ability changes in the hybrid system. The real guts, gears, and ratios of the abilities, the calculations and science behind it would make for a really cool livestream.

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Dygz

NWO also hit my sweet-spot for combat.
Armored Core looks faster than that.
But, sure, if Armored Core combat feels like NWO... we agree.

Solvryn

Dygz wrote: »

You aren't talking about shooters but Humblepuffin and Azherae were talking about Armored Core.
Combat system can push what is advertised as an RPG too close to a shooter or some kind of hybrid genre that is not really an RPG.

One still has a role, regardless if someone is rolling a dice (RNG) or a game is completely deterministic.

Just like the combat system doesn't stop anyone from being in character.

Solvryn

Meztopheles wrote: »

- Irrelevant side note: Mesmer is my favorite class of any game and I hope one of the classes in AoC will play like it.

GW2 mesmer is one of the best designed classes in the entire genre, a top 3 for sure.

Depraved

Solvryn wrote: »

With the direction of the classes starting to take shape, I think there is a level of importance to see how the class kits are going to act across this hybrid system.

Tab abilities and action abilities are coded and calculate differently across 3d space. While it is nice to see what the mostly tab portion of the game is going to look like, I have a hard time seeing the vision for the action portion. It seems like the action portion of what is supposed to look like either doesn't exist or may become secondary.

If anyone has ever played GW2 they would know that its tab game with a reticle toggle added later to mimic the “feel” of action combat. It’s still tab with the illusion of a hybrid system.

If I were to take the Cleric showcase now and do a side by side comparison to action games such as TERA, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Conq Blade, Valheim and look at the abilities and see if they behave and interact in the same way I can easily say those abilities don’t really behave nor are they coded the same way as the abilities in the titles I’ve listed.

It would be really grand to see the comparisons and the breakdowns in a livestream to see how one ability changes in the hybrid system. The real guts, gears, and ratios of the abilities, the calculations and science behind it would make for a really cool livestream.

i think is said that some skills will allow you to just aim and shoot without clicking on a target. i think it was on the ranger's showcase?

Solvryn

Depraved wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

With the direction of the classes starting to take shape, I think there is a level of importance to see how the class kits are going to act across this hybrid system.

Tab abilities and action abilities are coded and calculate differently across 3d space. While it is nice to see what the mostly tab portion of the game is going to look like, I have a hard time seeing the vision for the action portion. It seems like the action portion of what is supposed to look like either doesn't exist or may become secondary.

If anyone has ever played GW2 they would know that its tab game with a reticle toggle added later to mimic the “feel” of action combat. It’s still tab with the illusion of a hybrid system.

If I were to take the Cleric showcase now and do a side by side comparison to action games such as TERA, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Conq Blade, Valheim and look at the abilities and see if they behave and interact in the same way I can easily say those abilities don’t really behave nor are they coded the same way as the abilities in the titles I’ve listed.

It would be really grand to see the comparisons and the breakdowns in a livestream to see how one ability changes in the hybrid system. The real guts, gears, and ratios of the abilities, the calculations and science behind it would make for a really cool livestream.

i think is said that some skills will allow you to just aim and shoot without clicking on a target. i think it was on the ranger's showcase?

You can "free fire", whether or not that acts as an actual missile or not remains to be seen.

If you go back and look at the ranged showcase in the "action mode", you can see that you do not need to be on target in order to hit the target.

If it was aiming and clicking, that means I'd be able to lead my target.

CROW3

Solvryn wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

You aren't talking about shooters but Humblepuffin and Azherae were talking about Armored Core.
Combat system can push what is advertised as an RPG too close to a shooter or some kind of hybrid genre that is not really an RPG.

One still has a role, regardless if someone is rolling a dice (RNG) or a game is completely deterministic.

Just like the combat system doesn't stop anyone from being in character.

For combat, it’s less about ‘role’ playing and more about ‘roll’ playing. In a shooter, my skill to aim accurately and group my shots is based on my ability as a player. In an RPG, aiming accurately and killing my target is based on my character’s abilities and skill.

If my Ranger has a significantly higher dexterity score than your Ranger, and you’re hitting me more often because I - as a player - can’t aim well, then we are playing an FPS not an RPG.

This is what I liked about Neverwinter’s hybrid tab system. Rolls are still at the center of my character’s combat effectiveness.

hleV

I still hope that this "hybrid" is not "you choose one or the other," otherwise one will certainly be better than the other in most cases, rendering the other useless. I hope the "action-ness" will depend on the type of action.

Ranger basic attack? Tab. If needed, accuracy can additionally depend on a passive stat.
Melee basic attack? Action. Reach depends on weapon length.
Dash/charge? Action.

Mag7spy

@NiKr It is a few things when it comes to BDO and combat, when people say "combat" they are mixing a lot of elements together. Best way to get into the disccusion is rather than use the broad word to break it down to each element on its strengths and weakness.

1. Camera controls.
They do have an assist mode though a lot of things are / feel free there is soft lock targeting. Meaning players need to look int he direction they want to attack and have some level of skill when it comes to tracking and keeping pace of the thing they wish to target. This is perfectly find in action combat, it doesn't mean t is tab suddenly either. The feeling of tab vrs action are worlds apart here, and that feeling is what people seek and want with the skill curve that comes with it. So again it comes down to how the camera controls function with the game play and feeling like a more smooth and immersive experience.

2. AOE skills
Though BDO is action oriented the weaker element is how they do it in making a lot of skills large and aoe based. More of more of this makes it lose the tactical element and feel of gameplay. Too much can start to make things feel messy and reduce the element of combat imo.

Personally i feel toned down aoe sizes would be better and players need to be more accurate to land their hits and you wouldn't feel like it is aoe everywhere. For BDO though this is impossible to adjust now because of the design of the game and the power/speed crep that has been happening over the life of the game. Large aoes work better because you have classes that zoom across and nothing to really limit movement with all cancels that are available. BDO is part the point of smaller sizes since you would just fell useless in combat and why you most likely won't see a reduction to aoe sizes and new classes having large ones.

3. Flow of combat
One of the reasons why BDO feels good is a mix of camera but also more importantly the flow of combat. Because able to cancel your moves, the way skills mix into each other feeling like a chain akin to a fighting game, being able to react quickly and mix up your variations in a very organic way.

Though it feels good and like butter when you know what you are doing part of this can lead to issues with the aoe when you give players too much power in terms of their skills. Allowing players to escape out of anything at almost all point. Slowing down combat and some restrictions on the feeling of flow would be needed, else you get like bdo were you are just speeding up and things get messy.

So to summarize people that talk about BDO's combat is in relation to the camera and the feeling of flow they have. Aoe attacks and special effects are extra flare, and it is fireworks at this point how most people might see it. Animations in BDO are clean and feel very impactful with the rest of the combat (animations are always very important imo in terms of action)

ELRYNO

For what it's worth, I always thought that Spellbreak made for an excellent example of "Aimed + Positioned" spells in an "action combat" game with RPG Elements baked into it which made it a bit more than just "shooting a gun" in a PvP setting. In my opinion I think it had an awesome "aiming" system based on an "arc" and "end location" projectile with interactions between different classes.

The majority of the development team were absorbed by Blizzard and worked on the development of Dragonflight which is arguably one of their most successful expansions since Legion.

https://youtu.be/r3WmEOhzTKk

Voeltz

This is what I've been saying for a while now. Clearly action combat and the action combat mode have taken a backseat to tab target. This has been obvious to me since the Ranger update and was again, easy to identify in this month's stream since they didn't even bother showing it.

Trying to have both will result in 1 being ignored and everyone using the other due it being easier/superior. For healing, tab targeting actually makes more sense, I wouldn't expect everything needing to be aimed. Still would like to see projectile based heals and forward facing linear ground effects, similar to forward cones.

There are a lot of different games they could take inspiration from, Tera, Wildstar, League of Legends, Spellbreak is cool. I know it's not going to be a full fledged Action game and I'm ok with that, I just want a better mix than what we have currently.

I use League as an example because there are a great mix of skill shots and AOEs. Probably half are single target, do the aiming for you and require you to be locked on including basic attacks.

They also have a mix of projectiles that pierce through multiple targets and those that stop after they hit something which I think would be great for an MMO.

Spif

I think that part of the confusion is that action combat and action targeting are being conflated.

AFAIK the Devs have not talked about action combat other than untargeted abilities like cone/line attacks. Action targeting is using the reticle to pick your target, but in other respects acts just like you picked the target via tab. I think it was in the Ranger reveal that they talked about action targeting will even included a target lock option where you would press a key when your reticle is over whoever you want to target-lock.

Tab target is just fine for showcasing, and we're seeing that for now. But I don't expect action targeting to be greatly different in functionality, just more convenient to pick a specific target out of a crowd.

Tanks being able to block other characters from being targeted via proximity (ala a Guard ability) or LoS (with a big shield equipped) is a fantastic idea for PvP, and is probably worthy of a thread of it's own. I like that much more than tanks being able to force you to target them

Vaknar

This thread is generating some thoughtful feedback! Threads such as these are quite insightful. Be sure to drop your feedback on the official thread for the stream, if you haven't already!

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56029/feedback-request-alpha-two-cleric-archetype-updates-shown-in-july-livestream/p1

Solvryn

Voeltz wrote: »

This is what I've been saying for a while now. Clearly action combat and the action combat mode have taken a backseat to tab target. This has been obvious to me since the Ranger update and was again, easy to identify in this month's stream since they didn't even bother showing it.

Trying to have both will result in 1 being ignored and everyone using the other due it being easier/superior. For healing, tab targeting actually makes more sense, I wouldn't expect everything needing to be aimed. Still would like to see projectile based heals and forward facing linear ground effects, similar to forward cones.

There are a lot of different games they could take inspiration from, Tera, Wildstar, League of Legends, Spellbreak is cool. I know it's not going to be a full fledged Action game and I'm ok with that, I just want a better mix than what we have currently.

I use League as an example because there are a great mix of skill shots and AOEs. Probably half are single target, do the aiming for you and require you to be locked on including basic attacks.

They also have a mix of projectiles that pierce through multiple targets and those that stop after they hit something which I think would be great for an MMO.

That's where I'm really going with this, I'd like to see them build 1 skill, it act like a tab skill in the tab window then when I hit the action combat toggle, it be a full fledged action skill that is aimed.

Or when they say the action window, something like their BR combat, which only needed time to cook.

An action game without aiming and precision isn't a real action game, it's a sales pitch; so really TERA, Darkfall, Ashes BR, Conq Blade, Valheim etc are the best side by sides we can put against when looking at things through the action toggle.

Just like, when we are in tab mode/toggle, people expect it to be tab.

Those distinctions are incredibly important.

Solvryn

Vaknar wrote: »

This thread is generating some thoughtful feedback! Threads such as these are quite insightful. Be sure to drop your feedback on the official thread for the stream, if you haven't already!

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56029/feedback-request-alpha-two-cleric-archetype-updates-shown-in-july-livestream/p1

Working on it, going to find have to find all of the things I've read about how variables are coded in 3d space.

https://web.archive.org/web/20121102045730/http://www.enmasse.com/blog/posts/tera-reshaping-mmo-combat

Got sent this gem to me, this is the start.

deadmansprice

When it comes to action combat, what are the aspects that you are really focused on for Ashes? That you want in the game?

Solvryn

deadmansprice wrote: »

When it comes to action combat, what are the aspects that you are really focused on for Ashes? That you want in the game?

So, mastery will always be my end game; added benefits are adding that extra layer of immersion to make it feel like my abilities actually matter.

Aiming, Precision, Accurizing will always add more to the skill ceiling, never subtract from it.

Passive Defensive stats lower and inhibit the skill ceiling, they chain the combat systems potential for mastery.

Players who will whiff their abilities or not be bothered to actually master something anyway, that's a them problem. Putting things in the hands of the player drives the competition.

I do not think GCD, CD management and DR management are not hard concepts to master.

Rotations are sequence memorization, that's not really anything for a veteran to master either.

deadmansprice

Hmm, essentially, you want action combat to require higher skill and strategic thought, as compared to tab combat? Like easy to play, hard to master, compared to tab targets? I can see it being more dynamic, compared to tab which is a bit static.

Solvryn

deadmansprice wrote: »

Hmm, essentially, you want action combat to require higher skill and strategic thought, as compared to tab combat? Like easy to play, hard to master, compared to tab targets? I can see it being more dynamic, compared to tab which is a bit static.

You can only play tab so long before you master it.

Action raises that ceiling, adds more to master to the combat system.

I don’t think Ashes should be easy to play and I definitely think it should take a long time to master.

Ludullu

Solvryn wrote: »

I don’t think Ashes should be easy to play and I definitely think it should take a long time to master.

How hard should it be though? The target audience is already fairly small. Adding a high skill floor will only reduce that audience further.

And unless action skills are super OP in their effects, everyone will just use tab instead, because they simply can't utilize action to its full potential.

And making action an aoe-fest would obviously go against your preferences, so I'm assuming you wouldn't want that.

Spif

There are definitely action elements in more things than aiming and targeting though. Dodge-roll (with or without evade frames) and active block both have action elements in their timing.

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