Combat and Class feedback

With the direction of the classes starting to take shape, I think there is a level of importance to see how the class kits are going to act across this hybrid system.

Tab abilities and action abilities are coded and calculate differently across 3d space. While it is nice to see what the mostly tab portion of the game is going to look like, I have a hard time seeing the vision for the action portion. It seems like the action portion of what is supposed to look like either doesn't exist or may become secondary.

If anyone has ever played GW2 they would know that its tab game with a reticle toggle added later to mimic the “feel” of action combat. It’s still tab with the illusion of a hybrid system.

If I were to take the Cleric showcase now and do a side by side comparison to action games such as TERA, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, Conq Blade, Valheim and look at the abilities and see if they behave and interact in the same way I can easily say those abilities don’t really behave nor are they coded the same way as the abilities in the titles I’ve listed.

It would be really grand to see the comparisons and the breakdowns in a livestream to see how one ability changes in the hybrid system. The real guts, gears, and ratios of the abilities, the calculations and science behind it would make for a really cool livestream.

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Nova_terra

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I don’t think Ashes should be easy to play and I definitely think it should take a long time to master.

How hard should it be though? The target audience is already fairly small. Adding a high skill floor will only reduce that audience further.

And unless action skills are super OP in their effects, everyone will just use tab instead, because they simply can't utilize action to its full potential.

And making action an aoe-fest would obviously go against your preferences, so I'm assuming you wouldn't want that.

I tend to feel the same regarding Action/Tab discussions. In all the iterations I have ever seen, one is "superior" and then everyone else adopts. I am interested in the design space they are choosing (Lightning orb, cone aoe heal/damage) since it retains some semblance of skill in targeting without making it Amazons mess of a game where healers literally refused to take any non-targeted heals because they just weren't reliable. God just typing about the skillshot healing abilities in that game is giving me hives...

Percimes

One thing I wish was possible would be to have a way to keep my tab target while using an ability on another target with the reticle. Even if it meant setting a default mode of use for each ability or UI slot.

Quick example: cleric keeps the tank in tab target while firing their offensive abilities using the reticle. Or the opposite if it was the way they preferred.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I don’t think Ashes should be easy to play and I definitely think it should take a long time to master.

How hard should it be though? The target audience is already fairly small. Adding a high skill floor will only reduce that audience further.

This is what I feel would be the best way to implement a high skill ceiling game, the game ideally should teach people and encourage people to learn their class as they level through the game.

And it does go against what I like as a veteran in terms of difficulty, I wont waiver on the ceiling, but the floor we must be realistic about and it must have mechanisms and windows for learning.

But I think being able to pass down knowledge to newer players or players whom haven't been at it for the years I have suffices too, because a key facet of my mastery can be determined by my ability to teach a player still on the road to mastery.

Guilds/Colleges did that in the ancient times.

NiKr wrote: »

And unless action skills are super OP in their effects, everyone will just use tab instead, because they simply can't utilize action to its full potential.

They had a plan for that, hard CC wasn't supposed to be used in tab target, soft CC was.

Hard CC was supposed to be used in the action combat.

I think that idea was good and only needed to be expanded upon and time to bake in the oven.

NiKr wrote: »

And making action an aoe-fest would obviously go against your preferences, so I'm assuming you wouldn't want that.

AoE in most games, tab or action has been fundamentally implemented poorly, if AoE doesn't scale to appropriate levels of damage then it's going to be a shit show.

HumblePuffin

AoE in most games, tab or action has been fundamentally implemented poorly, if AoE doesn't scale to appropriate levels of damage then it's going to be a shit show.

We had variable damage on the ground targeting AoE so hopefully you will get that wish

Solvryn

HumblePuffin wrote: »

AoE in most games, tab or action has been fundamentally implemented poorly, if AoE doesn't scale to appropriate levels of damage then it's going to be a shit show.

We had variable damage on the ground targeting AoE so hopefully you will get that wish

My wish is that Intrepid considers all things and sticks to hard CC for action combat and soft CC for tab combat and just lets them keep it in the oven till we get something glorious.

But Intrepids ability to create something glorious has never been questioned, will they create something with a high skill ceiling, is the question.

hleV

Action hard CC and tab soft CC sounds good, as long as they're separate abilities, rather than having to choose either the action way or the tab way for the same ability, that decision affecting its performance.

Solvryn

hleV wrote: »

Action hard CC and tab soft CC sounds good, as long as they're separate abilities, rather than having to choose either the action way or the tab way for the same ability, that decision affecting its performance.

I don't think I'd be about that. I think people should make a conscious choice.

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Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.

Guess it's great that AoC is not an action combat game

hleV

Solvryn wrote: »

hleV wrote: »

Action hard CC and tab soft CC sounds good, as long as they're separate abilities, rather than having to choose either the action way or the tab way for the same ability, that decision affecting its performance.

I don't think I'd be about that. I think people should make a conscious choice.

The conscious choice would be to use the more effective option. If you're not using it, you're missing out on effectiveness, that's pretty simple. Therefore, it's not a choice at all. Sure, tab players may have a hard time hitting the action ability, but having to fall back to a less effective method will only increase their dissatisfaction with the system.

Both tab and action abilities should compliment each other, making it a proper hybrid, not have the players "choose" between better and worse options.

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Ludullu

Niem Lumel wrote: »

And that's it. A player will be idling most of the time once they learn how to heal because they have a lot of tools and very few offensive spells on relatively long cds.

Outside of all the other abilities we haven't been shown, because they're not in the alpha yet, Intrepid could also design their mobs in a way where healers don't just sit on their ass all the time simply because they don't need to heal.

Healing in L2 was quite frantic, especially considering that you always want to have some mana in case a pvp fight breaks out. I know that nowadays everyone's used to constant full mana, but Steven is obviously going for a much more oldschool approach in that regard.

Also, there's still no weapon passives, so we have no clue how healers will interact with that.

Solvryn

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.

I've been a pure healer in an action combat game though.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.

Guess it's great that AoC is not an action combat game

It'd be great if we can get a hybrid that's in the middle ground.

Solvryn

hleV wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

hleV wrote: »

Action hard CC and tab soft CC sounds good, as long as they're separate abilities, rather than having to choose either the action way or the tab way for the same ability, that decision affecting its performance.

I don't think I'd be about that. I think people should make a conscious choice.

The conscious choice would be to use the more effective option. If you're not using it, you're missing out on effectiveness, that's pretty simple. Therefore, it's not a choice at all. Sure, tab players may have a hard time hitting the action ability, but having to fall back to a less effective method will only increase their dissatisfaction with the system.

Both tab and action abilities should compliment each other, making it a proper hybrid, not have the players "choose" between better and worse options.

Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off.

So there's going to be a measure of dissatisfaction anyway.

Dygz

Solvryn wrote: »

It'd be great if we can get a hybrid that's in the middle ground.

Steven says that's his goal.
The latest demo was just showing off Healing Active Skills that were newly implemented.
I don't think it was necessarily intended to show a typical Cleric build.

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Solvryn

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Niem Lumel wrote: »

Pure healers like the one showcased cannot exist in an action combat game. I don't know how does anyone envision action combat pure healing in a sensible way that would not make people quit the role.

I've been a pure healer in an action combat game though.

Feel free to give an example of the games where you were `pure` healing with action combat.

You could pure heal in Darkfall Unholy Wars and the healers in TERA might have had some “dps” abilities but they weren’t doing much outside of their role.

That could have changed after I started playing, but I quit before reapers launched.

Solvryn

Dygz wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

It'd be great if we can get a hybrid that's in the middle ground.

Steven says that's his goal.
The latest demo was just showing off Healing Active Skills that were newly implemented.
I don't think it was necessarily intended to show a typical Cleric build.

I’m not sure how they plan to do that unless all of the skills we have seen are pure action abilities.

hleV

Solvryn wrote: »

Tab and Action will never compliment each other if tab skills are equal in effectiveness to action, action is harder to pull off.

Not if those abilities are separate and don't compete with each other. Again, to clarify, the ability would be locked to be either tab or action. Think using some dagger throw ability (tab) to pull a mob, then use a spin ability (action) afterwards to DPS. The abilities you choose from the skill tree wouldn't depend much on whether they're tab or action, but on their effect. You'd use both tab and action abilities in a fight.

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