Corruption system abuses ?

While waiting for alpha2 my mind is wondering about the corruption system ...

It feel like it can go wrong in both ways : for the griefed and for the non-griefer. The corruption is applied if a combatant kill a non-combatant:
- The combatant can harass the non-combatant (always leaving him low life, preventing him from playing)
- Some guilds/people might use this system to their advantage: bring non-combatant to threat other guilds of getting corrupted if they want to contest or other tricks

It's the good old debate: Is it better to have an innocent person in prison than a guilty one free?

It feels like this kind of system will be very tricky since people will try to abuse it. Does this kind of system exists in other mmorpg ? How did it go ?

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Aszkalon

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Nah. Account wide pk would suck. I know a lot of people don't rp but from an rp stand point account wide anything sucks.

Suck for who? Those who want to PK on another character to avoid the precise rules that are in place to stop people from PKing too much?

If you have a PK alt - you wouldn't care that its PK count influences your main because you wouldn't be PKing on your main. And if you're PKing on both - you're avoiding the punishment.

Jepp. Because for People who want to do like : only AND ONLY PK'ing, the PK'ing is the whole Content.

I bet for them, it doesn't even matter at all if they get flagged Red with ALL of their Characters for a certain Time, in which one gets flagged Red/corrupted for repeated Playerkillings. 😅 . 😁

Dagera

Sorry I didn't want to trigger such a discussion ...

Personnally I'm fine knowing this system has already existed in the past (L2). Sure it won't be perfect and maybe it will need some tuning at first, but it looks good enough for the purpose of this game

PS: I've discovered the meme thread, and it seems to be a recurring topic. Sorry community

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

I think you don't understand the practice. A ganker likes to one shot people - hence why they attack low levels at max level. Its not about killing low levels per say, its about the power dynamic. Killing low levels whilst levelling will slow you right down. Anyone can then kill you and take your stuff. It's just not conducive to good ganking business. Also, you have to find people who won't fight back in a pvx game lol.

Funny you say that when literally within the first week of me playing the game I was trapped in a small village and couldn't exit it because there was a mid-lvl PKer in glass-cannon gear that was PKing every lowbie who was in that village.

I think YOU don't understand the practice of PK dicks in a pvp game

Because I've experienced it from pretty much all sides of the conflict throughout my L2 gameplay.

Aszkalon wrote: »

I bet for them, it doesn't even matter at all if they get flagged Red with ALL of their Characters for a certain Time, in which one gets flagged Red/corrupted for repeated Playerkillings. 😅 . 😁

I'm not asking for corruption on all characters. I'm simply asking for PK count to be account-wide.

That way, you can still PK once on your alt, but if your overall PK count is smth like 20++ - you won't be able to kill more because your stats will be in the shitter, especially if you're on a low-mid char with a weak gear build.

My suggestion should, in theory, prevent the exact abuse I'm talking about with Neurath. If someone decides to level up a full account of alts and then gear them all up in semi-good gear and then be willing to remove their PK count to do their PKing all over again - I'd be fine with that, because that takes a muuuch bigger investment and would have much bigger periods of downtime in-between PKs.

Also, my suggestion includes requirement of "only your highest lvl character can reduce PK count", so the costs are super high too.

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

I think you don't understand the practice. A ganker likes to one shot people - hence why they attack low levels at max level. Its not about killing low levels per say, its about the power dynamic. Killing low levels whilst levelling will slow you right down. Anyone can then kill you and take your stuff. It's just not conducive to good ganking business. Also, you have to find people who won't fight back in a pvx game lol.

Funny you say that when literally within the first week of me playing the game I was trapped in a small village and could exit it because there was a mid-lvl PKer in glass-cannon gear that was PKing every lowbie who was in that village.

I think YOU don't understand the practice of PK dicks in a pvp game Because I've experienced it from pretty much all sides of the conflict throughout my l2 gameplay

Yeah. I had 1783 kills by the time I left the starting zone in Age of Conan. I was still one shotting lower levels in my blue gear at lvl 20. I made a lot of people rage quit. I also had a lot of threats which were never actuated lol.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah. I had 1783 kills by the time I left the starting zone in Age of Conan. I was still one shotting lower levels in my blue gear at lvl 20. I made a lot of people rage quit. I also had a lot of threats which were never actuated lol.

And that's the exact shit I'd want to prevent. And Steven seems to want that as well.

I mentioned punching up only in the case where the game has 0 lowbie players (which is a problem on its own as well). Though I've had a few situations where my friends and I would go to a higher lvled location to just fuck with people there. Majority obviously just hit back, but some didn't. And if Intrepid manages to hold passive/casual players' attention for long enough - there'd be enough people who don't hit back for the bad actors to prey upon.

Songcaller

It's impossible to prevent. It just is a fact. At what level ranges these facets happen is the only denominator.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

It's impossible to prevent. It just is a fact. At what level ranges these facets happen is the only denominator.

The amount can be reduced though. One full account of PK alts could kill 80 times (if there's 8 chars and 10 kills is where you start feeling stat damping in a meaningful way).

An account-wide PK count would change that 80 into 18, because any subsequent kill would stat dampen that character and then the amount of death you'd need to go through would also stat dampen the character even in a non-red state.

I still see no damn reason why this shouldn't be the case. The only people who'd be, in any way, affected by this are the exact people you'd want to stop.

Caww

Account wide punishment seems harsh for people that want a PK toon (or two) and then other goody toons

Ludullu

Caww wrote: »

Account wide punishment seems harsh for people that want a PK toon (or two) and then other goody toons

If you have a PK alt - you're free to PK on that alt. The only impact on your main (or good) char it would have is if you want to reduce the PK count, because in my suggestion you'd need to pay for it on your highest lvl char.

Being a "pk player" is not supposed to be a thing. It's not a gameplay style and the system is supposed to prevent it from happening. But even if you do have an alt for that exact purpose - your main is still completely fine. Just don't PK on your main.

CROW3

Dagera wrote: »

Sorry I didn't want to trigger such a discussion ...

PS: I've discovered the meme thread, and it seems to be a recurring topic. Sorry community

Certainly don’t need to apologize. This has been a frequent debate over the last six years, since the corruption system is THE linchpin for Ashes’ PvX. Worthy of the conversation - particularly for new folks. I just think A2 testing is going to put years of speculation to rest and finally give us something concrete to mine ad nauseam.

Welcome to the boards btw.

Percimes

Could limiting the PK count to "per server" instead of "per account" be an acceptable compromise?

Ludullu

Percimes wrote: »

Could limiting the PK count to "per server" instead of "per account" be an acceptable compromise?

Imo no. Mainly cause it would still let more PKing to happen in the game, rather than limiting it. Spreading it over servers could only lead to worse things, cause at that point the person PKing would have even less of an incentive to limit their bad behavior in scope.

As tautau mentioned, social pressure might be involved when a person tries to use their PK alt on the same server. With a server-bound PK count people would instead be encouraged to go to those other servers to mess with people. Not only are you not punished through in-game systems, but even the social pressure is gone now, because no one knows your main there and could never even link the two of you together.

Isth3reno1else

Veeshan wrote: »

The only issue i see with corruption system more the flagging system is low level player say lvl 20 attacks a lvl 30 harvesters, lvl 30 person be like yeah i can win this attacks the lvl 20 marks himself as combatant only to be a bait for the lvl 50 hiding nearby to come out and kill the level 30 for no penalty since he was nor a combatant.
So this leaves the level 30 with no real option die running away slowly and loose more stuff and giving corruption to a character that is disposable to a degree, or fighting abck only to die to the 50 they have no chance against but loose less.

you lose less stuff as a combatant compared to a non combatant. So in this situation sure your death is more assured, but going combatant means you drop less loot.

The penalty for not fighting back is dropping more loot

As far as the outcome of the fight goes, I'm not going to feel bad if a player only participates in a fight they think they can win, and then the added bonus is they lose less stuff even if they lose.

The system as a whole is designed to give you choices in game. Choices for dealing with pve or pvp griefers, choices on how you want to interact in the world. With the open seas being 24/7 pvp it's my assumption that the scale for punishment for corruption will be very, very high.

The reasoning will be that 2/3rds of the world already has full on pvp, why make corruption easier. Just my opinion though and it will really depend on the developers.

Raven016

Percimes wrote: »

Could limiting the PK count to "per server" instead of "per account" be an acceptable compromise?

For me it would be. I wonder if players will really do that. If it is viable to have high PK count on a server, it makes no sense to have a lawful playing style on another.

Ruerik

Maybe the answer lies with capitalism!

Jokes aside, I feel tying this back into economic pain for corrupted or boosts for non-corrupted would go further than other methods.

And since we use our alts to boost our economic efficiency, no reason corrupted economic pain shouldnt also apply to alts.

PK with any corruption? Take some penalty, accountwide, to money gains.

Get killed while corrupted? The money you drop is drawn from your total account money, not just inventory money (you are a monster after all, not a person anymore, no reason why person rules should apply), amount determined by how corrupted you are. More corruption = more % money dropped.

Make it have some cost associated with trading with the corrupted player or it using basic bank services, or straight up not allow trading or NPC use.

afaik, currency pain is the only real way to deter PKing. If I can use my other characters to regear my PK alt over and over inexpensively, then it doesnt matter how red that alt goes because I can keep it supplied. Conversely if it starts to get silly amounts of expensive to me, I aint gonna PK randomly for fun.

Ludullu

Taerrik wrote: »

afaik, currency pain is the only real way to deter PKing. If I can use my other characters to regear my PK alt over and over inexpensively, then it doesnt matter how red that alt goes because I can keep it supplied. Conversely if it starts to get silly amounts of expensive to me, I aint gonna PK randomly for fun.

Gear has nothing to do with this. You don't even need gear to PK people, because PKing implies that the victim didn't fight back in the first place.

Losing your entire inventory wouldn't deter PKers, because there's whole damn games where that is already the case.

PK count is what determines how much corruption you'll get for a new kill from a green state. High amounts of corruption will, supposedly, dampen your stats to such a degree that you can't go on PKing anymore.

And also, my suggestion already supports your "capitalistic" idea, because I want people to only be able to reduce their PK count on their mains, which in turn, I hope, would scale the things you need to do in order to reduce the count. So even if you PK someone as a lvl1 alt - you'll still have to pay a ton of time/money/mats if you have a lvl50 on the same account. So yes, currency pain would still apply as well.

Songcaller

Don't see the need. The situation still stands that the corruption system is harsh enough. We will test the system in a2 but it will be an artificial test because testers test systems and do not act naturally.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Don't see the need. The situation still stands that the corruption system is harsh enough. We will test the system in a2 but it will be an artificial test because testers test systems and do not act naturally.

Definitely gonna do the exact abuse I'm talking about when Intrepid says it's ok to PK people

We'll see how many complains they get.

Songcaller

NiKr wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Don't see the need. The situation still stands that the corruption system is harsh enough. We will test the system in a2 but it will be an artificial test because testers test systems and do not act naturally.

Definitely gonna do the exact abuse I'm talking about when Intrepid says it's ok to PK people We'll see how many complains they get.

There were complaints in the last tests. Didn't change anything except Maggie stepping in to stop it.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

There were complaints in the last tests. Didn't change anything except Maggie stepping in to stop it.

That's why I said "when Intrepid says it's ok". Afaik A1 wasn't meant to test the corruption system. A2 will be at one point and that's when I'm gonna be flagging on every person I see and killing anyone who doesn't fight back. And once I reach the "can no longer kill people cause stat dampened" - I'll do it again and again on alts. Ideally against the same people to drive the point home (and cause I'd know that the chance of them fighting back is lower).

If Steven is fine with that setup - I'll live with it, cause that's exactly what I lived with in L2. But considering how much harsher the Ashes system seems to be - we'll see if how it ends up in the end, when it comes to PK count balancing.

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