Sociopathic/Psychopathic behavior in PvP focused MMOs

iccer

Dacosta wrote: »

Nah bro.
I got it pretty much, you're the kind of person that fights everyone till you find someone who supports you/your opinion..

You're already denying and fighting against a lot of ppl and their opinion here.

TLDR: You're going for the wrong game genre. You want to be alone

I mean, what am I supposed to do, agree with everyone, even if they clearly misrepresent my entire point? Just like what you have done here?

"TLDR: You're going for the wrong game genre. You want to be alone" - See, how can you just say something random like that? It obviously isn't true, yet you pull that out of your ass because you are unable to actually argue my point.
Who said I want to be alone? Like how did you even come to that conclusion, and how can you so confidently say it like you know what I want or don't want?

But what can I expect from a troll who just made another account to argue with me here, because arguing from his main apparently isn't enough.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Depraved look at how many streamers and people on social media have text book narcissistic qualities. Could be a reason why some of them are so successful and act the way they do. Sad part is, their community may or may not be aware of it and are victims or encouraging it lol

many of them also dont. but im talking about gamers in general. there are more people who arent YouTubers/streamers that people who are. isnt jutst 5% of the population or so who are sociopaths/psychopaths?

also, remember that many people who are on social media are just basically acting. the create a character (not all of them but most do) and post stuff to get views because thats how they make money.

if we go by th logic of "im going to win and i dont care if you lose", everybody who competes is a psycopath or a socipath. everybody who plays monopoly, chess, pokemon, etc, etc. the guy working harder than the rest to get that promotion is also a psycopath, because hey only 1 person can get the promotion and everybody else will get screwed. the nba player who starts training one hour before everybody, etc, etc

we are getting pretty ridiculous at this point.

The irony is palpable, but sure, I'll bite.

Not everyone who competes 'doesn't care if the other person loses'. Some people care quite a lot about if the other person is having fun matching skills with them, even if they don't win. Sometimes especially if they don't win.

If your definition of 'truly competitive' involves 'not caring about your opponent's feelings, well...

if people who compete care about their competitors, doesnt that mean they arent psychopaths?

Depraved

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Depraved look at how many streamers and people on social media have text book narcissistic qualities. Could be a reason why some of them are so successful and act the way they do. Sad part is, their community may or may not be aware of it and are victims or encouraging it lol

many of them also dont. but im talking about gamers in general. there are more people who arent YouTubers/streamers that people who are. isnt jutst 5% of the population or so who are sociopaths/psychopaths?

also, remember that many people who are on social media are just basically acting. the create a character (not all of them but most do) and post stuff to get views because thats how they make money.

if we go by th logic of "im going to win and i dont care if you lose", everybody who competes is a psycopath or a socipath. everybody who plays monopoly, chess, pokemon, etc, etc. the guy working harder than the rest to get that promotion is also a psycopath, because hey only 1 person can get the promotion and everybody else will get screwed. the nba player who starts training one hour before everybody, etc, etc

we are getting pretty ridiculous at this point.

There's many psychological red flags if one knows what they're looking for.
The point is, just because someone seems nice or empathetic doesn't mean they're genuinely "good" people either. That's all I was getting. I don't really want to get involved beyond that in relation to this threads subject matter or relative purpose.

being nice is a bad thing. a man who is nice is a weak man who will backstab you. a good man isnt nice. a good man is a monster capable of hurting others who keeps himself under control

Percimes

How can so many rough and tough PvPers be triggered so easily.

Depraved

iccer wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

To start off, and explain what actually made me post this:

I've started playing Archeage again, on the classic server.
It's honestly a brilliant game, one of the best MMOs I've ever played, that's for sure. There's so much stuff to do, from PvE, to PvP content, large group content, farming and gathering, crafting. The game pretty much has it all.
Returning to this game after 7 years, I was filled with nostalgia, hearing familiar sounds, visiting familiar areas that I spent so much time in...
The game isn't without issues, that's for sure, even without P2W elements (which were removed for the classic server), but it's in my opinion the best version of the game out there currently.

What I've noticed previously, and what Archeage Classic has confirmed, is that these types of games bring certain kinds of players in, more than other games. I'm talking about straight up sociopathic types of players.

These types of games bring players with sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies, but also encourage such tendencies in players, due to the nature of their design.

Consistent behavior patterns in sociopaths include:

• Lack of empathy for others
• Impulsive behavior
• Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
• Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
• Not learning from mistakes or punishment
• Lying for personal gain
• Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
• Generally superficial relationships
• Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
• Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
• Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
• Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.

Most of these could actually be applied to a lot of players that I've encountered in Archeage.

Lack of empathy, attempting to control others with threats or aggression, lying for personal gain, tendency to violence, superficial relationships, stealing/committing crimes, and especially exploiting others for their own personal gain, are definitely how I would describe a large number of players in Archeage.

- From mindless PKing, just because you belong to the other faction, to PKing your own faction for personal gain (no matter how small), it's such a common behavior, that's really putting me off from even playing in zones that allow PvP.

- These players also just enjoy messing with other people, trying to annoy them, make their gameplay less enjoyable.

- Also, besides having large egos, these players also seem really immature, which is especially sad when you realize most of them are probably 25+ years old (and still act like 15-year olds).

There's just something that makes players turn into scumbags when playing these types of games.

I myself don't like being in large competitive guilds, because those guilds seem to attract these types of players. The worst part is when you actually do get those players together, because it brings a lot of drama, guilds disbanding, leadership changes, backstabbing, "politics" being a real thing, etc. A lot of these people are just unpleasant to interact with in general.

I might have been fine with this stuff 7 years ago, when I last played the game, because I was much younger back then, still in my teens, immature, and generally displaying some of those characteristics myself, but nowadays, I feel like I've "grown up", started having a bit more empathy, and realized I'm actually playing the game alongside other humans, not with random NPCs that I'm going to exploit for my personal gain.

It's also an unpleasant experience when you are just minding your own business, playing solo, doing random stuff, and suddenly get ganked by a group of 5-6 players, that have 1-2k higher gearscore than you. The only reason being, you belong to the other faction. This is a problem with the game design, because it shouldn't allow mindless, meaningless PKing (there are a ton of other problems that I'm not gonna go into, as they're specific to Archeage itself).

I actually do enjoy group PvP, either competing for world bosses, just hunting merchants out in the sea, or even defending your own merchant, even Halcyona PvP. What I realize, is that I do enjoy group PvP that's around certain valuable objectives, but I really dislike random PvP that can happen anywhere, for no apparent reason.

The whole issue here is that the game allows for these players to behave in that way, which means more of those people will be attracted to the game, which means more of those people playing the game. The way to solve it is to just not attract those kinds of players in the first place, by limiting what they can do, and how much they can impact the experience of others, with their behavior.


Why am I writing all of this?

Well, for a couple of main reasons.

First, is because I want to "get it off my chest", and sum up my thoughts in a written form. I'm also wondering if other people have noticed similar things in these types of games.
Second, because I feel like Ashes could have a lot of the same problems, due to the nature of it, being a PvP(PvX) game.

I think Steven gets a lot of shit already from some people, either for right or wrong reasons. The reality is, that he was an Archeage player, and he was a leader of a large guild, and people had some bad experiences with him. As such, he is obviously trying to at least transfer some of the systems, that he enjoyed interacting with, from Archeage to Ashes. The question is, are those systems good for the regular player, or only for a specific type of player.

I feel like Ashes design having similarities to Archeage is what actually made me follow the project, but now I'm starting to realize that I might actually dislike some of those similarities.

- I'm going to start off with the main, general, overarching thing. Steven himself. This is just my opinion and there's no malice intended in this comment. I don't know Steven personally, or what his exact vision for the game is, but I feel like he has some biases that will impact the key designs of the game (well obviously). While he is an MMORPG player, he just isn't your regular MMORPG player. Most people get caught up on this, thinking because he's an ex-MMORPG player, he is just like them, and he definitely knows what most players want and how to implement that stuff in the game. But that's just not the case.
He was the leader of a large, hell, HUGE, competitive zerg guild. He might very well be one of those types of players I was talking about previously, with no regards, or empathy for others, only interested in personal gain above all else. Are you content with playing a game made by such a player, or rather, do you think the game will encourage that type of behavior, at least to some extent?
On the other hand, this could be a good thing, because he's also able to realize the large impact of having such a guild, and he has experience to know what happened with such guilds in Archeage (where enough players leave the game, and enough players start joining the most powerful guilds, so the entire server is dominated by 1 or 2 guilds - not even gonna go into player nations). He would have the knowledge not to allow the same mistakes that made Archeage a worse game, repeat in Ashes, his own game.

- In Ashes, there are no factions, which I now think is a great change compared to Archeage (previously I liked the idea of having 2 factions, but playing those sorts of games, I've realized there's almost 0 punishment for actually just PKing the hell out of the players from the other faction, for no reason at all).

- There will be flagging, or turning against your own "faction". It remains to be seen how the corruption system will work, and how much of a deterrent it will be. I just hope it does a good enough job of making it not worth to actually flag up for miniscule reasons, and to only be worth it to flag up in certain situations, either around valuable objectives, like dungeons, world bosses, caravans, or similar.

- Ashes introduces a lot of content, like castles, freeholds, mayorship, etc. that will only be accessible to, and controlled by the select few powerful guilds. My experience from Archeage is that it will be mostly be the highly competitive types that will exploit this type of content as much as possible for their own gain, while leaving the regular players behind.

- The whole "player driven thing" falls apart if you give players too much control, without enough limitations, because those undesirable types of players will come out on top, much more often than you think, and they will directly or indirectly control the experience of playing on "their" server. They will control the objectives, freeholds, cities, castles, world bosses, dungeons, farming spots, if you give them the freedom to do so, because they are selfish. But more importantly, they will control the experience of other, regular players, and usually it's for the worse, not better.

- And lastly, it's not even about large guilds controlling stuff, and impacting the gameplay of regular players. It's about those types of sociopathic individuals, who are going to ruin the experience of others, if the game allows them to do so. They could just PK their own faction constantly, for materials, farming spots, or for no reason at all, just for their own enjoyment. This is why I feel that systems need to be put in place to prevent such behavior, and I feel like Ashes will have those systems in place, it only remains to be seen how they're implemented, which we just cannot know until we get to play the game.
I dislike PvE only games, but I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing. PvP should only happen during certain events, in certain areas, or around certain objectives, not all over the map, at any time, for any reason.


The problem with these kinds of games, like Ashes, is that they always kind of assume 99% of the players will behave normally. It just doesn't happen.
These games assume players will band together and fight back against the bullies, they won't. They will just try to get away from them, or usually just quit the game. This whole "band together", "bounty hunter", stuff is pure fantasy that won't ever work, because you just can't gather a bunch of randoms to do stuff like that, especially against organized guilds, and especially against organized psychos, whose entire goal is to exploit others for their own benefit, or just for their own enjoyment. Those people treat others as enemies, but more importantly, as NPCs, rather than actual human beings.


TL:DR - Players with sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies are drawn to Open-world PvP (or PvX) sandbox games, because those games don't put certain restrictions on what they can do, and how much they can negatively impact the gameplay experience of other players. Interacting with those players isn't enjoyable, and games should limit how much players have an impact on others. If a game doesn't attract such players, it means less of them will play it, which means everyone has a better experience overall.


Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on this are, has anyone else noticed whether those kinds of players prefer PvP MMOs, and if there is a way to prevent them from negatively impacting the gameplay experience of others?

i suppose people who play monopoly are also sociopaths or psychopaths.
people who play chess, people who play basketball, soccer, pokemon, etc, etc.

every time you play a game where you have to make the other person lose. damn i guess the majority of people in the world are sociopaths or psychopaths, since most people prefer cooperative-competitive activities.

Way to miss the point. Where to even begin...
I'm not even sure if you are being serious, but if you are, then there's probably nothing I can say that will make you actually see my point.

All of those things you've listed are games, where participants are participating and competing willingly against others. You usually also have different tiers in sports (and even ranks, in competitive PC games), you don't often see the best teams competing against teams that are 2-3 tiers below them, let alone 5 or 6, and that's for a good reason.
In open-world PvP MMORPGs, there's no such thing. You have people with top tier gear, just PKing lower geared players, or even lower level players. There's no consent to it, and it isn't balanced. It's much different setting and feeling from a competitive game, like LoL, Dota, or CS, where the entire point of the game is to kill the enemy team, on a set map.

But again, that wasn't even my point, it's not just about making other person "lose", it's about players not taking into account they're playing against other human beings, it's about them actively destroying other people's enjoyment of the game, or even hampering their progress. It's not just about PKing, but those players actively hunting other players, like they're animals, as soon as they spot them in a zone that allows PvP (which will be the entire world in Ashes). It's about there being no punishment to mindlessly PKing people for no reason, which encourages such behavior to happen in the first place.

you actually see the best teams and players competing against players and teams who are below them. thats how rankings are made. the best teams competed against the teams who arent the best and won and rose to the top.

in pve mmorpgs you have people with top tier gear taking mobs from people with low tier gear trying ot farm withotu their consent see how the same logic can be applied to pve but it sounds ridiculous?

you consent to open world pvp when you log into the game. if i worked hard for the gear and i want to farm a spot, ill kill you. we fight for the spot, simple as that. its like playing monopoly. faction games rarely have consequences for pking someone from the other faction, they just try to isolate factions from one another. in a factionless game, there are consequences for pking, so if oyu have to pk, you have to deal with the consequences.

Percimes

Percimes wrote: »

How can so many rough and tough PvPers be triggered so easily.

Never mind... Number 2 and 4 on the list.

iccer

Depraved wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

@Depraved look at how many streamers and people on social media have text book narcissistic qualities. Could be a reason why some of them are so successful and act the way they do. Sad part is, their community may or may not be aware of it and are victims or encouraging it lol

many of them also dont. but im talking about gamers in general. there are more people who arent YouTubers/streamers that people who are. isnt jutst 5% of the population or so who are sociopaths/psychopaths?

also, remember that many people who are on social media are just basically acting. the create a character (not all of them but most do) and post stuff to get views because thats how they make money.

if we go by th logic of "im going to win and i dont care if you lose", everybody who competes is a psycopath or a socipath. everybody who plays monopoly, chess, pokemon, etc, etc. the guy working harder than the rest to get that promotion is also a psycopath, because hey only 1 person can get the promotion and everybody else will get screwed. the nba player who starts training one hour before everybody, etc, etc

we are getting pretty ridiculous at this point.

There's many psychological red flags if one knows what they're looking for.
The point is, just because someone seems nice or empathetic doesn't mean they're genuinely "good" people either. That's all I was getting. I don't really want to get involved beyond that in relation to this threads subject matter or relative purpose.

being nice is a bad thing. a man who is nice is a weak man who will backstab you. a good man isnt nice. a good man is a monster capable of hurting others who keeps himself under control

Yeah bro, spoken like a true ALPHA SIGMA male. Sigma grindset baby


/s

Depraved wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

To start off, and explain what actually made me post this:

I've started playing Archeage again, on the classic server.
It's honestly a brilliant game, one of the best MMOs I've ever played, that's for sure. There's so much stuff to do, from PvE, to PvP content, large group content, farming and gathering, crafting. The game pretty much has it all.
Returning to this game after 7 years, I was filled with nostalgia, hearing familiar sounds, visiting familiar areas that I spent so much time in...
The game isn't without issues, that's for sure, even without P2W elements (which were removed for the classic server), but it's in my opinion the best version of the game out there currently.

What I've noticed previously, and what Archeage Classic has confirmed, is that these types of games bring certain kinds of players in, more than other games. I'm talking about straight up sociopathic types of players.

These types of games bring players with sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies, but also encourage such tendencies in players, due to the nature of their design.

Consistent behavior patterns in sociopaths include:

• Lack of empathy for others
• Impulsive behavior
• Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
• Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
• Not learning from mistakes or punishment
• Lying for personal gain
• Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
• Generally superficial relationships
• Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
• Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
• Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
• Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.

Most of these could actually be applied to a lot of players that I've encountered in Archeage.

Lack of empathy, attempting to control others with threats or aggression, lying for personal gain, tendency to violence, superficial relationships, stealing/committing crimes, and especially exploiting others for their own personal gain, are definitely how I would describe a large number of players in Archeage.

- From mindless PKing, just because you belong to the other faction, to PKing your own faction for personal gain (no matter how small), it's such a common behavior, that's really putting me off from even playing in zones that allow PvP.

- These players also just enjoy messing with other people, trying to annoy them, make their gameplay less enjoyable.

- Also, besides having large egos, these players also seem really immature, which is especially sad when you realize most of them are probably 25+ years old (and still act like 15-year olds).

There's just something that makes players turn into scumbags when playing these types of games.

I myself don't like being in large competitive guilds, because those guilds seem to attract these types of players. The worst part is when you actually do get those players together, because it brings a lot of drama, guilds disbanding, leadership changes, backstabbing, "politics" being a real thing, etc. A lot of these people are just unpleasant to interact with in general.

I might have been fine with this stuff 7 years ago, when I last played the game, because I was much younger back then, still in my teens, immature, and generally displaying some of those characteristics myself, but nowadays, I feel like I've "grown up", started having a bit more empathy, and realized I'm actually playing the game alongside other humans, not with random NPCs that I'm going to exploit for my personal gain.

It's also an unpleasant experience when you are just minding your own business, playing solo, doing random stuff, and suddenly get ganked by a group of 5-6 players, that have 1-2k higher gearscore than you. The only reason being, you belong to the other faction. This is a problem with the game design, because it shouldn't allow mindless, meaningless PKing (there are a ton of other problems that I'm not gonna go into, as they're specific to Archeage itself).

I actually do enjoy group PvP, either competing for world bosses, just hunting merchants out in the sea, or even defending your own merchant, even Halcyona PvP. What I realize, is that I do enjoy group PvP that's around certain valuable objectives, but I really dislike random PvP that can happen anywhere, for no apparent reason.

The whole issue here is that the game allows for these players to behave in that way, which means more of those people will be attracted to the game, which means more of those people playing the game. The way to solve it is to just not attract those kinds of players in the first place, by limiting what they can do, and how much they can impact the experience of others, with their behavior.


Why am I writing all of this?

Well, for a couple of main reasons.

First, is because I want to "get it off my chest", and sum up my thoughts in a written form. I'm also wondering if other people have noticed similar things in these types of games.
Second, because I feel like Ashes could have a lot of the same problems, due to the nature of it, being a PvP(PvX) game.

I think Steven gets a lot of shit already from some people, either for right or wrong reasons. The reality is, that he was an Archeage player, and he was a leader of a large guild, and people had some bad experiences with him. As such, he is obviously trying to at least transfer some of the systems, that he enjoyed interacting with, from Archeage to Ashes. The question is, are those systems good for the regular player, or only for a specific type of player.

I feel like Ashes design having similarities to Archeage is what actually made me follow the project, but now I'm starting to realize that I might actually dislike some of those similarities.

- I'm going to start off with the main, general, overarching thing. Steven himself. This is just my opinion and there's no malice intended in this comment. I don't know Steven personally, or what his exact vision for the game is, but I feel like he has some biases that will impact the key designs of the game (well obviously). While he is an MMORPG player, he just isn't your regular MMORPG player. Most people get caught up on this, thinking because he's an ex-MMORPG player, he is just like them, and he definitely knows what most players want and how to implement that stuff in the game. But that's just not the case.
He was the leader of a large, hell, HUGE, competitive zerg guild. He might very well be one of those types of players I was talking about previously, with no regards, or empathy for others, only interested in personal gain above all else. Are you content with playing a game made by such a player, or rather, do you think the game will encourage that type of behavior, at least to some extent?
On the other hand, this could be a good thing, because he's also able to realize the large impact of having such a guild, and he has experience to know what happened with such guilds in Archeage (where enough players leave the game, and enough players start joining the most powerful guilds, so the entire server is dominated by 1 or 2 guilds - not even gonna go into player nations). He would have the knowledge not to allow the same mistakes that made Archeage a worse game, repeat in Ashes, his own game.

- In Ashes, there are no factions, which I now think is a great change compared to Archeage (previously I liked the idea of having 2 factions, but playing those sorts of games, I've realized there's almost 0 punishment for actually just PKing the hell out of the players from the other faction, for no reason at all).

- There will be flagging, or turning against your own "faction". It remains to be seen how the corruption system will work, and how much of a deterrent it will be. I just hope it does a good enough job of making it not worth to actually flag up for miniscule reasons, and to only be worth it to flag up in certain situations, either around valuable objectives, like dungeons, world bosses, caravans, or similar.

- Ashes introduces a lot of content, like castles, freeholds, mayorship, etc. that will only be accessible to, and controlled by the select few powerful guilds. My experience from Archeage is that it will be mostly be the highly competitive types that will exploit this type of content as much as possible for their own gain, while leaving the regular players behind.

- The whole "player driven thing" falls apart if you give players too much control, without enough limitations, because those undesirable types of players will come out on top, much more often than you think, and they will directly or indirectly control the experience of playing on "their" server. They will control the objectives, freeholds, cities, castles, world bosses, dungeons, farming spots, if you give them the freedom to do so, because they are selfish. But more importantly, they will control the experience of other, regular players, and usually it's for the worse, not better.

- And lastly, it's not even about large guilds controlling stuff, and impacting the gameplay of regular players. It's about those types of sociopathic individuals, who are going to ruin the experience of others, if the game allows them to do so. They could just PK their own faction constantly, for materials, farming spots, or for no reason at all, just for their own enjoyment. This is why I feel that systems need to be put in place to prevent such behavior, and I feel like Ashes will have those systems in place, it only remains to be seen how they're implemented, which we just cannot know until we get to play the game.
I dislike PvE only games, but I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing. PvP should only happen during certain events, in certain areas, or around certain objectives, not all over the map, at any time, for any reason.


The problem with these kinds of games, like Ashes, is that they always kind of assume 99% of the players will behave normally. It just doesn't happen.
These games assume players will band together and fight back against the bullies, they won't. They will just try to get away from them, or usually just quit the game. This whole "band together", "bounty hunter", stuff is pure fantasy that won't ever work, because you just can't gather a bunch of randoms to do stuff like that, especially against organized guilds, and especially against organized psychos, whose entire goal is to exploit others for their own benefit, or just for their own enjoyment. Those people treat others as enemies, but more importantly, as NPCs, rather than actual human beings.


TL:DR - Players with sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies are drawn to Open-world PvP (or PvX) sandbox games, because those games don't put certain restrictions on what they can do, and how much they can negatively impact the gameplay experience of other players. Interacting with those players isn't enjoyable, and games should limit how much players have an impact on others. If a game doesn't attract such players, it means less of them will play it, which means everyone has a better experience overall.


Just wondering what everyone's thoughts on this are, has anyone else noticed whether those kinds of players prefer PvP MMOs, and if there is a way to prevent them from negatively impacting the gameplay experience of others?

i suppose people who play monopoly are also sociopaths or psychopaths.
people who play chess, people who play basketball, soccer, pokemon, etc, etc.

every time you play a game where you have to make the other person lose. damn i guess the majority of people in the world are sociopaths or psychopaths, since most people prefer cooperative-competitive activities.

Way to miss the point. Where to even begin...
I'm not even sure if you are being serious, but if you are, then there's probably nothing I can say that will make you actually see my point.

All of those things you've listed are games, where participants are participating and competing willingly against others. You usually also have different tiers in sports (and even ranks, in competitive PC games), you don't often see the best teams competing against teams that are 2-3 tiers below them, let alone 5 or 6, and that's for a good reason.
In open-world PvP MMORPGs, there's no such thing. You have people with top tier gear, just PKing lower geared players, or even lower level players. There's no consent to it, and it isn't balanced. It's much different setting and feeling from a competitive game, like LoL, Dota, or CS, where the entire point of the game is to kill the enemy team, on a set map.

But again, that wasn't even my point, it's not just about making other person "lose", it's about players not taking into account they're playing against other human beings, it's about them actively destroying other people's enjoyment of the game, or even hampering their progress. It's not just about PKing, but those players actively hunting other players, like they're animals, as soon as they spot them in a zone that allows PvP (which will be the entire world in Ashes). It's about there being no punishment to mindlessly PKing people for no reason, which encourages such behavior to happen in the first place.

you actually see the best teams and players competing against players and teams who are below them. thats how rankings are made. the best teams competed against the teams who arent the best and won and rose to the top.

in pve mmorpgs you have people with top tier gear taking mobs from people with low tier gear trying ot farm withotu their consent see how the same logic can be applied to pve but it sounds ridiculous?

you consent to open world pvp when you log into the game. if i worked hard for the gear and i want to farm a spot, ill kill you. we fight for the spot, simple as that. its like playing monopoly. faction games rarely have consequences for pking someone from the other faction, they just try to isolate factions from one another. in a factionless game, there are consequences for pking, so if oyu have to pk, you have to deal with the consequences.

But it's not about fighting for something that I have problem with. It's about getting PKed for nothing, other than the PKers enjoyment of making others lose (regardless of them being much stronger, having a jump on you together with several other people, or w/e other unbalanced scenario they use, because they rarely attack when it's an even playing field).

Ludullu

iccer wrote: »

In CS, Dota, LoL, and other competitive games, you HAVE to PvP, and you HAVE to kill other players to win the game.

In shooters - yes. In mobas - to an extent. LoL is infamous for its lower amounts of kills per match (at least in my crcles), so there's way less killing in that game as compared to dota. But even in dota, you could just kill towers and let the mobs overwhelm the enemy. So it's not like you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO kill players there either.

Hell, in theory, you could plant the bomb in CS and win w/o killing a player. Obviously that'll most likely never happen, because your enemy will try to prevent that, but to me that's the same as players preventing you from doing smth in owpvp mmos.

iccer wrote: »

In MMORPGs, you don't have to do it, unless there's something to win (again, I've given examples of events with PvP focus). In MMORPGs you do not have to murder everyone from the opposing team, because there isn't a match that you have to win. Yet some people either feel like they have to, or they just enjoy killing others who aren't looking for PvP.

Owpvp usually have quite a limited amount of valuable resources/content. And with limited amounts of that stuff it creates friction between players which leads to pvp and PKing.

PKing is usually reserved for the extreme cases, but, yes, there are people who just kill for the fun of it (fun for them of course). But there's already a system to limit that amount of "fun" in Ashes.

iccer wrote: »

It's not about soloing the content.

Most of the valuable stuff, you just have to group up, and not jsut group up, but bring 2-3 full raids for it.
But you won't be spending 80% of the time doing that sort of content.
You do not need a group if you want to farm mobs.
You do not need a group if you want to plant/harvest stuff on your farms.
You do not need a group if you want to craft/process stuff.
You do not need a group if you want to do quests.

That's majority of what you'll be doing anyways.

I assume you're talking about AA's design here, right?

In L2 you had to be in a party to farm any even semi-valuable mobs. Ashes will most likely have soloable mobs, but we're yet to see their value.

Farming will depend on the value of stuff you're farming and the state of your node. Your node might be at war, so you'll be killed on your farm because that's a way to speed up your node's decay, which is beneficial for the enemy. PKing can apply here if your farm is related to your guild/party, while your group is regarded as powerful (because now it's direct competition).

Same applies to crafting/processing. We even still have PKing in nodes, though I do expect that to change to appeal to people exactly like you.

Quests will have mobs and npcs related to them. Those mobs and npcs might be outside of nodes, which means that you can be PKed to prevent you from finishing said quests. This was done at scale in L2, when guilds were preventing their enemies from progressing.

And all of those things are either prevented or made easier if you're in a group, so I expect quite a lot of people to do that content in groups.

Caww

iccer wrote: »

Consistent behavior patterns in sociopaths include:

• Lack of empathy for others
• Impulsive behavior
• Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
• Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
• Not learning from mistakes or punishment
• Lying for personal gain
• Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
• Generally superficial relationships
• Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
• Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
• Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
• Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.

seems to just describe general internet behavior...

George_Black

BS

iccer

NiKr wrote: »

Quests will have mobs and npcs related to them. Those mobs and npcs might be outside of nodes, which means that you can be PKed to prevent you from finishing said quests. This was done at scale in L2, when guilds were preventing their enemies from progressing.

And all of those things are either prevented or made easier if you're in a group, so I expect quite a lot of people to do that content in groups.

I was talking about AA, indeed.

All I have to say is, I'm glad I never touched L2 in that case. Because it sounds awful, and borderline sickening.
The fact that players would rather go out of their way to prevent enemies from progressing, rather than progressing themselves, just says it all, and tells you what kind of players these games attract. Point proven I guess.

The fact that those things are prevented by joining a group does make it better, but I can't imagine that sort of design being implemented in 2023.

Then again, I haven't played the game, so maybe it was required if there was a "win condition" of sorts present in the game. Same as invading enemy jungle in LoL, massively hampering enemy jungler's early game power.

Caww wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Consistent behavior patterns in sociopaths include:

• Lack of empathy for others
• Impulsive behavior
• Attempting to control others with threats or aggression
• Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others
• Not learning from mistakes or punishment
• Lying for personal gain
• Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights
• Generally superficial relationships
• Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes
• Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act
• Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol
• Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.

seems to just describe general internet behavior...

Well, says it all then I guess.

It is true, however it is worse when you encounter these things in games, you know, places that you're supposed to enjoy and have fun in.

Don't even get me started on the whole internet thing, and how sick people can be, only because they can remain anonymous, which means there are no consequences for their actions. That's a whole another topic, that I won't get into.

Ludullu

iccer wrote: »

All I have to say is, I'm glad I never touched L2 in that case. Because it sounds awful, and borderline sickening.
The fact that players would rather go out of their way to prevent enemies from progressing, rather than progressing themselves, just says it all, and tells you what kind of players these games attract. Point proven I guess.

Those things were done in order TO progress easier. When in basketball player A blocks player B from scoring - is that not "progressing" towards player A's win? This is exactly the same as utilizing pvp/PK mechanics in an owpvp mmo to progress towards a win.

In games with limited content only a limited amount of people can win. So if you want to be the one who wins - you have to remove other players from your path. PKing is one of the ways of doing that. You can go through my messages and see that I consider this the last resort for a player and a tool of the weakest players, but that doesn't remove the fact that it's a tool.

iccer wrote: »

but I can't imagine that sort of design being implemented in 2023.

You are quite literally on a forum for a game with pretty much that exact design So

Caww

iccer wrote: »

Don't even get me started on the whole internet thing, and how sick people can be, only because they can remain anonymous, which means there are no consequences for their actions. That's a whole another topic, that I won't get into.

go ahead and give it a vent.... somebody else will if you don't...

Aszkalon

What i think i learned (heard) about,

what makes Sociopaths so different from Psychopaths, is the fact - that Psychopaths are not really at fault for like Example - a Lack of Empathy. They - don't "act" like they are different.

They ARE different, actually. They more or less just "lack" the Ability to be social and empathic towards other Beings. This may not even be restricted to just other Humans - but Animals as well.


" Sociopaths " however - are very often the most toxic Pieces of you-know-what, that one can possibly find.

They are hostile. Not because they might be different from everybody else -> but because they "WANT" to be hostile. They are unhinged because they WANT to be unhinged.

That sounds for me - like - many Sociopaths are actually incredibly insufferable Narcissists. They think the whole World revolves around them,

and if they find out it doesn't -> well then they "BETTER" not have any Influence to let others feel their Wrath over when they are irritated or angry.



I am aware, i might be off with my whole Comment to some Degree, or maybe even in general.

But compared to " Psychopaths " - who are just incomplete as Human Beings regarding their lack of Empathy,

" Sociopaths " are the most toxic A~holes that you can happen to stumble upon. They will "ALWAYS" try to inflict as much Damage to everything around them if they can, if they are dissatisfied with a Situation,

they will "ALWAYS" refuse to see Reason and keep being obstinate even if they KNOW they are in the wrong,

and they will "ALWAYS" refuse to better and defuse a Situation, when they are in a Conflict with someone else.



Now in Reallife, they are not the worst that can happen. Aside from if they are armed, of Course. I bet we saw "MANY" Sociopaths use Cars/Vehicles as Weapons,

and "MANY" Sociopaths committed for Example Suicide by Cop.



But in Video Games - may the virtual GODS THEMSELVES have Mercy on your Soul -> if they are for Example in a Position where they can decide to wipe your Group, Raid, etc,

if they can "ruin" your Day or at least give their best trying to -> and "YOU" for some Reason can not just get rid of them due to a Game's Mechanics.




Moral of the Story -> always report toxic Players and Griefplayers.

We Humans don't deserve to get terrorised and mentally tortured for wanting to play a Game and have a good Time mentally. We don't.

George_Black

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55960/pvp-why-do-people-avoid-it-what-types-of-pvp-are-out-there-what-do-you-like/p1
Here is the only other topic this guy has.
Same QQing. No point in engaging unless you are bored. Bye

iccer

George_Black wrote: »

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55960/pvp-why-do-people-avoid-it-what-types-of-pvp-are-out-there-what-do-you-like/p1
Here is the only other topic this guy has.
Same QQing. No point in engaging unless you are bored. Bye

Glad you did your research.

Sorry for not spending more time on a forum for a game that's not even out yet. I'll do better, and make more posts, if that helps you, rather than commenting on other people's posts.

Oh, and I'm sorry that the only thing your mind could comprehend from my 2 posts, is that I'm QQing.

Also, I'm sorry that you feel like QQing about other people QQing, not the first time I've seen you do the same either.

I'm guessing you are bored, since you already commented more than once.

Percimes

iccer wrote: »

The fact that players would rather go out of their way to prevent enemies from progressing, rather than progressing themselves, just says it all, and tells you what kind of players these games attract. Point proven I guess.

Every time someone says something along the line of I don't want my rivals to get stronger my brain auto-translate it to I prefer to fight weaker opponents, because otherwise I would have to face some risks. And I'm insecure. Kind of like bullies.

iccer

Percimes wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

The fact that players would rather go out of their way to prevent enemies from progressing, rather than progressing themselves, just says it all, and tells you what kind of players these games attract. Point proven I guess.

Every time someone says something along the line of I don't want my rivals to get stronger my brain auto-translate it to I prefer to fight weaker opponents, because otherwise I would have to face some risks. And I'm insecure. Kind of like bullies.

If it works, it works I guess. It is a valid tactic after all.

Ludullu

Percimes wrote: »

Every time someone says something along the line of I don't want my rivals to get stronger my brain auto-translate it to I prefer to fight weaker opponents, because otherwise I would have to face some risks. And I'm insecure. Kind of like bullies.

Is competition bullying?

Say there's a limited amount of slots for a training camp for soccer teams and those slots get filled up by gaining points in matches. If team A does their absolute best to win against team B in a match because this would prevent team B from getting enough points for the camp - is that bullying?

Wanting your enemies to be as strong as you, so that you can have fun and equal pvp, is cool and all, but it's literally impossible in the moment of a single respawn of a valuable resource. I guess giving up the second farm could be a way of "balancing the scales", but I'd be curious to see any kind of stats on how many people out there, in any competitive environment, willingly give up their advantage "just to be fair".

I think I've seen a few situations where runners helped someone in front of them when that person had some issues, but those kinds of situations are the exception that proves the rule afaik.

Okeydoke

iccer wrote: »

I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing.

True open world pvp has to allow for mindless PKing to some extent. But you can limit it, or slow it, or create an opportunity cost for it for the killer. That's the goal of Ashes' corruption system.

But that's just the open world flagging system. If you are involved in a guild war or a node war in Ashes, it will feel much more like Archeage's faction warfare. And by the way, enemy faction players in Archeage kill you because they get points for killing you. It's been 10 years since I've played, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure when I played I got honor points for killing enemy players. Either way, putting that aside, players kill enemy players as a matter of course, points or not, that's just the way it goes.

And of course AoC's open seas are going to be unrestricted pvp. So you may be "mindlessly" killed there too. So it's a mixed bag of open world pvp formats, everywhere from completely unrestricted to restricted by the corruption system.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing. It seems like instanced battlegrounds might be more up your alley. As far as the pyschopathic and sociopathic stuff, it sounds like you are taking things that happen in pvp way too personally. Not denying that there's some dickheads out there. But mostly, in my experience, it's just people pvping, competing, talking a little trash, having fun, dunking on people, getting dunked on themselves. You either have the stomach for it or you don't. It's just a game.

iccer

Okeydoke wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing.

True open world pvp has to allow for mindless PKing to some extent. But you can limit it, or slow it, or create an opportunity cost for it for the killer. That's the goal of Ashes' corruption system.

But that's just the open world flagging system. If you are involved in a guild war or a node war in Ashes, it will feel much more like Archeage's faction warfare. And by the way, enemy faction players in Archeage kill you because they get points for killing you. It's been 10 years since I've played, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure when I played I got honor points for killing enemy players. Either way, putting that aside, players kill enemy players as a matter of course, points or not, that's just the way it goes.

And of course AoC's open seas are going to be unrestricted pvp. So you may be "mindlessly" killed there too. So it's a mixed bag of open world pvp formats, everywhere from completely unrestricted to restricted by the corruption system.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing. It seems like instanced battlegrounds might be more up your alley. As far as the pyschopathic and sociopathic stuff, it sounds like you are taking things that happen in pvp way too personally. Not denying that there's some dickheads out there. But mostly, in my experience, it's just people pvping, competing, talking a little trash, having fun, dunking on people, getting dunked on themselves. You either have the stomach for it or you don't. It's just a game.

Yep, which is why I mentioned the corruption system, which could solve this issue, we just don't know it, until we get to play the game.


In Archaege, you only get the honor points while the zone is in the War. I really avoid those areas, as it's filled with ppl with 5k gs, while I'm at ~3500. It's not like you can do anything, when they jump on you out of nowhere, and stun lock you, until you die (which is very fast). The issue is, they're also doing it in conflict areas, where they do not get anything for killing you.

See, I see the Sea content as group content, so I'm fine with PvP there. In Archeage, I actually enjoy it, especially when in a group, just wandering around searching for red trade ships, or even just protecting our own. There's a purpose to it, mostly.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing.

I do enjoy OWPvP to some extent, when it has a purpose, and when it's a somewhat balanced setting. I dislike when it's 5 people jumping on one person, or when it's a high level/high gear character just murdering lower level/lower gear people, for no reason other than their own enjoyment of watching others lose and suffer.
The reason I mentioned psychopathic and sociopathic stuff, is because those definitions perfectly describe a lot of players in PvP encounters in Archeage. I'm not using those words to try to insult them, but I find they're the best words to describe their behavior.



Thank you for actually being one of the few people who are engaging in a conversation, rather than constantly throwing out random untrue assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth, like a lot of these posters are doing constantly, in every single thread that they disagree with.

Azherae

iccer wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing.

True open world pvp has to allow for mindless PKing to some extent. But you can limit it, or slow it, or create an opportunity cost for it for the killer. That's the goal of Ashes' corruption system.

But that's just the open world flagging system. If you are involved in a guild war or a node war in Ashes, it will feel much more like Archeage's faction warfare. And by the way, enemy faction players in Archeage kill you because they get points for killing you. It's been 10 years since I've played, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure when I played I got honor points for killing enemy players. Either way, putting that aside, players kill enemy players as a matter of course, points or not, that's just the way it goes.

And of course AoC's open seas are going to be unrestricted pvp. So you may be "mindlessly" killed there too. So it's a mixed bag of open world pvp formats, everywhere from completely unrestricted to restricted by the corruption system.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing. It seems like instanced battlegrounds might be more up your alley. As far as the pyschopathic and sociopathic stuff, it sounds like you are taking things that happen in pvp way too personally. Not denying that there's some dickheads out there. But mostly, in my experience, it's just people pvping, competing, talking a little trash, having fun, dunking on people, getting dunked on themselves. You either have the stomach for it or you don't. It's just a game.

Yep, which is why I mentioned the corruption system, which could solve this issue, we just don't know it, until we get to play the game.


In Archaege, you only get the honor points while the zone is in the War. I really avoid those areas, as it's filled with ppl with 5k gs, while I'm at ~3500. It's not like you can do anything, when they jump on you out of nowhere, and stun lock you, until you die (which is very fast). The issue is, they're also doing it in conflict areas, where they do not get anything for killing you.

See, I see the Sea content as group content, so I'm fine with PvP there. In Archeage, I actually enjoy it, especially when in a group, just wandering around searching for red trade ships, or even just protecting our own. There's a purpose to it, mostly.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing.

I do enjoy OWPvP to some extent, when it has a purpose, and when it's a somewhat balanced setting. I dislike when it's 5 people jumping on one person, or when it's a high level/high gear character just murdering lower level/lower gear people, for no reason other than their own enjoyment of watching others lose and suffer.
The reason I mentioned psychopathic and sociopathic stuff, is because those definitions perfectly describe a lot of players in PvP encounters in Archeage. I'm not using those words to try to insult them, but I find they're the best words to describe their behavior.



Thank you for actually being one of the few people who are engaging in a conversation, rather than constantly throwing out random untrue assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth, like a lot of these posters are doing constantly, in every single thread that they disagree with.

Based on this, the game you want is Throne and Liberty.

I'm really not trying to discourage you as a whole from Ashes, that's the last thing I want for anyone, but we also have to face the reality that different games are made for different people and probably we should just be thankful that these two games are going in different directions.

Sure, the overall owPvP is gone, but one of those things always comes with the other. The design required to make it so that people don't 'just gank the disadvantaged for fun' while at the same time not making it so no one ever engages, is gonna be complicated, no matter what game eventually does it.

Games for people who enjoy the rush of 'being ganked' or 'being in danger of being ganked' need to exist too. It's 'a shame' that the game with the most other promised features is also the one that will have this, but you know what they say...

"If ArcheAge is so good, why isn't there an ArcheAge 2?"

Oh wait...

iccer

Azherae wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing.

True open world pvp has to allow for mindless PKing to some extent. But you can limit it, or slow it, or create an opportunity cost for it for the killer. That's the goal of Ashes' corruption system.

But that's just the open world flagging system. If you are involved in a guild war or a node war in Ashes, it will feel much more like Archeage's faction warfare. And by the way, enemy faction players in Archeage kill you because they get points for killing you. It's been 10 years since I've played, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure when I played I got honor points for killing enemy players. Either way, putting that aside, players kill enemy players as a matter of course, points or not, that's just the way it goes.

And of course AoC's open seas are going to be unrestricted pvp. So you may be "mindlessly" killed there too. So it's a mixed bag of open world pvp formats, everywhere from completely unrestricted to restricted by the corruption system.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing. It seems like instanced battlegrounds might be more up your alley. As far as the pyschopathic and sociopathic stuff, it sounds like you are taking things that happen in pvp way too personally. Not denying that there's some dickheads out there. But mostly, in my experience, it's just people pvping, competing, talking a little trash, having fun, dunking on people, getting dunked on themselves. You either have the stomach for it or you don't. It's just a game.

Yep, which is why I mentioned the corruption system, which could solve this issue, we just don't know it, until we get to play the game.


In Archaege, you only get the honor points while the zone is in the War. I really avoid those areas, as it's filled with ppl with 5k gs, while I'm at ~3500. It's not like you can do anything, when they jump on you out of nowhere, and stun lock you, until you die (which is very fast). The issue is, they're also doing it in conflict areas, where they do not get anything for killing you.

See, I see the Sea content as group content, so I'm fine with PvP there. In Archeage, I actually enjoy it, especially when in a group, just wandering around searching for red trade ships, or even just protecting our own. There's a purpose to it, mostly.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing.

I do enjoy OWPvP to some extent, when it has a purpose, and when it's a somewhat balanced setting. I dislike when it's 5 people jumping on one person, or when it's a high level/high gear character just murdering lower level/lower gear people, for no reason other than their own enjoyment of watching others lose and suffer.
The reason I mentioned psychopathic and sociopathic stuff, is because those definitions perfectly describe a lot of players in PvP encounters in Archeage. I'm not using those words to try to insult them, but I find they're the best words to describe their behavior.



Thank you for actually being one of the few people who are engaging in a conversation, rather than constantly throwing out random untrue assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth, like a lot of these posters are doing constantly, in every single thread that they disagree with.

Based on this, the game you want is Throne and Liberty.

I'm really not trying to discourage you as a whole from Ashes, that's the last thing I want for anyone, but we also have to face the reality that different games are made for different people and probably we should just be thankful that these two games are going in different directions.

Sure, the overall owPvP is gone, but one of those things always comes with the other. The design required to make it so that people don't 'just gank the disadvantaged for fun' while at the same time not making it so no one ever engages, is gonna be complicated, no matter what game eventually does it.

Games for people who enjoy the rush of 'being ganked' or 'being in danger of being ganked' need to exist too. It's 'a shame' that the game with the most other promised features is also the one that will have this, but you know what they say...

"If ArcheAge is so good, why isn't there an ArcheAge 2?"

Oh wait...

The thing is, I find Archeage to be the best MMORPG I've played, even with the bs PvP system. It's extremely frustrating and annoying, but the overall game has so much to offer, that it would be silly not to play it just because of the PvP.
I'm hoping Ashes will be similar.

These systems would be fine, if players had any decency, and if they didn't immediately resort to PKing as soon as they spot someone, again, for no reason at all, other than to mess with other people.

In Ashes, we will have corruption, that will hopefully discourage, or make it not worth it to flag up for no real reason, like trying to mess with people, and watch them lose, or whatever else.

The sense of danger of being ganked does need to exist, I agree. It's one of the things that makes OW PvP games good.
At the same time, people exploit that, and just assume they HAVE to gank everyone, and anyone, at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.
I don't think it's the same when you ganked out of nowhere, just because you are going through a certain area, doing whatever, or doing nothing,
vs
When you are actually taking up a farm spot, mining/gathering, contesting for a WB, or something else. Then I do understand the need for ganking, and I have no issues with it really, and I'd gladly engage in PvP there.

Depraved

iccer wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing.

True open world pvp has to allow for mindless PKing to some extent. But you can limit it, or slow it, or create an opportunity cost for it for the killer. That's the goal of Ashes' corruption system.

But that's just the open world flagging system. If you are involved in a guild war or a node war in Ashes, it will feel much more like Archeage's faction warfare. And by the way, enemy faction players in Archeage kill you because they get points for killing you. It's been 10 years since I've played, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure when I played I got honor points for killing enemy players. Either way, putting that aside, players kill enemy players as a matter of course, points or not, that's just the way it goes.

And of course AoC's open seas are going to be unrestricted pvp. So you may be "mindlessly" killed there too. So it's a mixed bag of open world pvp formats, everywhere from completely unrestricted to restricted by the corruption system.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing. It seems like instanced battlegrounds might be more up your alley. As far as the pyschopathic and sociopathic stuff, it sounds like you are taking things that happen in pvp way too personally. Not denying that there's some dickheads out there. But mostly, in my experience, it's just people pvping, competing, talking a little trash, having fun, dunking on people, getting dunked on themselves. You either have the stomach for it or you don't. It's just a game.

Yep, which is why I mentioned the corruption system, which could solve this issue, we just don't know it, until we get to play the game.


In Archaege, you only get the honor points while the zone is in the War. I really avoid those areas, as it's filled with ppl with 5k gs, while I'm at ~3500. It's not like you can do anything, when they jump on you out of nowhere, and stun lock you, until you die (which is very fast). The issue is, they're also doing it in conflict areas, where they do not get anything for killing you.

See, I see the Sea content as group content, so I'm fine with PvP there. In Archeage, I actually enjoy it, especially when in a group, just wandering around searching for red trade ships, or even just protecting our own. There's a purpose to it, mostly.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing.

I do enjoy OWPvP to some extent, when it has a purpose, and when it's a somewhat balanced setting. I dislike when it's 5 people jumping on one person, or when it's a high level/high gear character just murdering lower level/lower gear people, for no reason other than their own enjoyment of watching others lose and suffer.
The reason I mentioned psychopathic and sociopathic stuff, is because those definitions perfectly describe a lot of players in PvP encounters in Archeage. I'm not using those words to try to insult them, but I find they're the best words to describe their behavior.



Thank you for actually being one of the few people who are engaging in a conversation, rather than constantly throwing out random untrue assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth, like a lot of these posters are doing constantly, in every single thread that they disagree with.

Based on this, the game you want is Throne and Liberty.

I'm really not trying to discourage you as a whole from Ashes, that's the last thing I want for anyone, but we also have to face the reality that different games are made for different people and probably we should just be thankful that these two games are going in different directions.

Sure, the overall owPvP is gone, but one of those things always comes with the other. The design required to make it so that people don't 'just gank the disadvantaged for fun' while at the same time not making it so no one ever engages, is gonna be complicated, no matter what game eventually does it.

Games for people who enjoy the rush of 'being ganked' or 'being in danger of being ganked' need to exist too. It's 'a shame' that the game with the most other promised features is also the one that will have this, but you know what they say...

"If ArcheAge is so good, why isn't there an ArcheAge 2?"

Oh wait...

The thing is, I find Archeage to be the best MMORPG I've played, even with the bs PvP system. It's extremely frustrating and annoying, but the overall game has so much to offer, that it would be silly not to play it just because of the PvP.
I'm hoping Ashes will be similar.

These systems would be fine, if players had any decency, and if they didn't immediately resort to PKing as soon as they spot someone, again, for no reason at all, other than to mess with other people.

In Ashes, we will have corruption, that will hopefully discourage, or make it not worth it to flag up for no real reason, like trying to mess with people, and watch them lose, or whatever else.

The sense of danger of being ganked does need to exist, I agree. It's one of the things that makes OW PvP games good.
At the same time, people exploit that, and just assume they HAVE to gank everyone, and anyone, at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.
I don't think it's the same when you ganked out of nowhere, just because you are going through a certain area, doing whatever, or doing nothing,
vs
When you are actually taking up a farm spot, mining/gathering, contesting for a WB, or something else. Then I do understand the need for ganking, and I have no issues with it really, and I'd gladly engage in PvP there.

you want to change player behaviour and human nature. basically, you want everyone else to change but you. or you want to change the game for you. ok how about this. this problem wouldnt exist if you toughened up.

change yourself (using your logic). there, problem solved.

Azherae

iccer wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing.

True open world pvp has to allow for mindless PKing to some extent. But you can limit it, or slow it, or create an opportunity cost for it for the killer. That's the goal of Ashes' corruption system.

But that's just the open world flagging system. If you are involved in a guild war or a node war in Ashes, it will feel much more like Archeage's faction warfare. And by the way, enemy faction players in Archeage kill you because they get points for killing you. It's been 10 years since I've played, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure when I played I got honor points for killing enemy players. Either way, putting that aside, players kill enemy players as a matter of course, points or not, that's just the way it goes.

And of course AoC's open seas are going to be unrestricted pvp. So you may be "mindlessly" killed there too. So it's a mixed bag of open world pvp formats, everywhere from completely unrestricted to restricted by the corruption system.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing. It seems like instanced battlegrounds might be more up your alley. As far as the pyschopathic and sociopathic stuff, it sounds like you are taking things that happen in pvp way too personally. Not denying that there's some dickheads out there. But mostly, in my experience, it's just people pvping, competing, talking a little trash, having fun, dunking on people, getting dunked on themselves. You either have the stomach for it or you don't. It's just a game.

Yep, which is why I mentioned the corruption system, which could solve this issue, we just don't know it, until we get to play the game.


In Archaege, you only get the honor points while the zone is in the War. I really avoid those areas, as it's filled with ppl with 5k gs, while I'm at ~3500. It's not like you can do anything, when they jump on you out of nowhere, and stun lock you, until you die (which is very fast). The issue is, they're also doing it in conflict areas, where they do not get anything for killing you.

See, I see the Sea content as group content, so I'm fine with PvP there. In Archeage, I actually enjoy it, especially when in a group, just wandering around searching for red trade ships, or even just protecting our own. There's a purpose to it, mostly.

Open world pvp may not really be your thing.

I do enjoy OWPvP to some extent, when it has a purpose, and when it's a somewhat balanced setting. I dislike when it's 5 people jumping on one person, or when it's a high level/high gear character just murdering lower level/lower gear people, for no reason other than their own enjoyment of watching others lose and suffer.
The reason I mentioned psychopathic and sociopathic stuff, is because those definitions perfectly describe a lot of players in PvP encounters in Archeage. I'm not using those words to try to insult them, but I find they're the best words to describe their behavior.



Thank you for actually being one of the few people who are engaging in a conversation, rather than constantly throwing out random untrue assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth, like a lot of these posters are doing constantly, in every single thread that they disagree with.

Based on this, the game you want is Throne and Liberty.

I'm really not trying to discourage you as a whole from Ashes, that's the last thing I want for anyone, but we also have to face the reality that different games are made for different people and probably we should just be thankful that these two games are going in different directions.

Sure, the overall owPvP is gone, but one of those things always comes with the other. The design required to make it so that people don't 'just gank the disadvantaged for fun' while at the same time not making it so no one ever engages, is gonna be complicated, no matter what game eventually does it.

Games for people who enjoy the rush of 'being ganked' or 'being in danger of being ganked' need to exist too. It's 'a shame' that the game with the most other promised features is also the one that will have this, but you know what they say...

"If ArcheAge is so good, why isn't there an ArcheAge 2?"

Oh wait...

The thing is, I find Archeage to be the best MMORPG I've played, even with the bs PvP system. It's extremely frustrating and annoying, but the overall game has so much to offer, that it would be silly not to play it just because of the PvP.
I'm hoping Ashes will be similar.

These systems would be fine, if players had any decency, and if they didn't immediately resort to PKing as soon as they spot someone, again, for no reason at all, other than to mess with other people.

In Ashes, we will have corruption, that will hopefully discourage, or make it not worth it to flag up for no real reason, like trying to mess with people, and watch them lose, or whatever else.

The sense of danger of being ganked does need to exist, I agree. It's one of the things that makes OW PvP games good.
At the same time, people exploit that, and just assume they HAVE to gank everyone, and anyone, at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.
I don't think it's the same when you ganked out of nowhere, just because you are going through a certain area, doing whatever, or doing nothing,
vs
When you are actually taking up a farm spot, mining/gathering, contesting for a WB, or something else. Then I do understand the need for ganking, and I have no issues with it really, and I'd gladly engage in PvP there.

Then I'll hope AA2 works out for you, but I kinda doubt it unless they're watching the data from everything else lately.

I don't agree that people just assume they should gank because they are mentally divergent though.

I firmly believe it's the game's design that causes this, for many reasons. The player who ganks is presented with a situation and a set of consequences where their options are usually 'be sure they will win' or 'don't attack'. So all the people who are willing to just gank 'everyone' are the ones who have learned that they 'can'.

Even a different set of people who know they can beat everyone but don't care... the only way you'd find out how strong they are is if you attacked THEM.

The real question that we are all ofc still asking ourselves until Alpha-2 is the one you put forward, in short, does Steven want a game where nearly no one goes for the gank, or a game where people can reasonably respond with violence first in every conflict (whether or not they finish it that way isn't relevant).

That said, I was recommending TL because of my huge and unfounded speculations that it will work toward rivaling AA and Ashes in specific ways once it hits its stride, so might as well get in on it early, it might be good to be used to it rather than 'joining late because it finally adds enough content you think you'd like' but then the big guilds have everything locked down for those who aren't in them.

You might be a person who joins guilds easily, but forgive me for assuming based on some stuff in your post, that you aren't.

Veeshan

Taerrik wrote: »

I think the issue with mega guilds, boils down not to how much easier than can just kill everyone.

But when they kill people just because they can, because they think its funny, and they do it over and over for no benefit but some laughs (also known as griefing). Theres a wiki page on griefing but I dont know how enforced that will be if at all.

i will say one thing about mega guild, there strength in numbers yes but there also weakness in it aswell. our guild of 20-30 or so dismantled the mega zerg guild on archage simply by wearing them down with hit and run tactics along with spies. We would hit all there members doing trade runs and disapear before the zerg portaled in we had 2 minutes tops basicly to kill loot and disperse to a different location to hit them again. we also had a spy which we would secretly take packs off there guild plot and drop them off the cliff to our trade ship to carry them off to hand in. The Guild leader ended up randomly kicking people he though was takignt he packs but never did get the spy lol More players = more vulnerabilities since they cant defend everyone at once.

they thought they could just kill who they wanted but sometime u gotta watch who u bite cause they may just bite back with more determination.

i dunno why but my guild i play with always seems to end up at war with a zerg in every game lol

Depraved

Veeshan wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

I think the issue with mega guilds, boils down not to how much easier than can just kill everyone.

But when they kill people just because they can, because they think its funny, and they do it over and over for no benefit but some laughs (also known as griefing). Theres a wiki page on griefing but I dont know how enforced that will be if at all.

i will say one thing about mega guild, there strength in numbers yes but there also weakness in it aswell. our guild of 20-30 or so dismantled the mega zerg guild on archage simply by wearing them down with hit and run tactics along with spies. We would hit all there members doing trade runs and disapear before the zerg portaled in we had 2 minutes tops basicly to kill loot and disperse to a different location to hit them again. we also had a spy which we would secretly take packs off there guild plot and drop them off the cliff to our trade ship to carry them off to hand in. The Guild leader ended up randomly kicking people he though was takignt he packs but never did get the spy lol More players = more vulnerabilities since they cant defend everyone at once.

they thought they could just kill who they wanted but sometime u gotta watch who u bite cause they may just bite back with more determination.

i dunno why but my guild i play with always seems to end up at war with a zerg in every game lol

lmao thats so funny T_T dropping loot off the cliff hahaha.

Veeshan

iccer wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

But again, that wasn't even my point, it's not just about making other person "lose", it's about players not taking into account they're playing against other human beings, it's about them actively destroying other people's enjoyment of the game, or even hampering their progress. It's not just about PKing, but those players actively hunting other players, like they're animals, as soon as they spot them in a zone that allows PvP (which will be the entire world in Ashes). It's about there being no punishment to mindlessly PKing people for no reason, which encourages such behavior to happen in the first place.

What would you say if the game had an insatiable hardcore mob who'd hunt you until it died, as soon as it saw you?

iccer wrote: »

You won't be in a party about 70% of the time you are playing. I don't know where this idea that you have to play in a party for everything comes from. Again, you're just arguing about something completely different at this point.

They're talking about a game that was inspiration for this game. L2 had you play in a party ~80-90% of your time. There pretty much wasn't any soloable content of worth in that game. You HAD TO find a party and live with them.

This is also why people were more fine with pvping, because they were always with company.

That's just a bad analogy.

You cannot compare a mob, that's programmed to do something, with real player decisions and actions. Besides, I'd just not play the game if that was the case.

The issue is how players view a game. They just say "it's a PvP game so expect PvP", which completely misses the point, and just shows how people who play these types of games think.


I don't see what L2 has to do with this, we are talking about Archeage, and Ashes. And their comment seemed directed at me.

The issue is how players view a game. They just say "it's a PvP game so expect PvP", which completely misses the point, and just shows how people who play these types of games think.

In regards to this line. PvE players also tend to say any game is a PvP game if i can be unflagged and be killed. In most of there eyes if they can be killed by somone in the openworld then its a pvp game.

Alot of them will see AoC as a PvP game dispite being classed as a PvX game, PvP players will also see it as a PvP game aswell because it basicly the same as any pvp game out there atm when you break it down. also PvP MMO are not just gankfests either alot of the time aswell

Veeshan

Percimes wrote: »

How can so many rough and tough PvPers be triggered so easily.

its more the PvP players are just plain sick of PvE players coming into games that wasnt designed for them and then crying there PvP and getting it changed into a more PvE friendly game. New world for example is a recent example of this.
And if you wanna trigger the fuck out of PvE players all u need to do is go to new world forums and ask if there a PvP server yet and they go on and on and on about we dont want a PvP server dispite it would not effect them at all cause they can just play on the server they already have :P

Azherae

Veeshan wrote: »

Percimes wrote: »

How can so many rough and tough PvPers be triggered so easily.

its more the PvP players are just plain sick of PvE players coming into games that wasnt designed for them and then crying there PvP and getting it changed into a more PvE friendly game. New world for example is a recent example of this.
And if you wanna trigger the fuck out of PvE players all u need to do is go to new world forums and ask if there a PvP server yet and they go on and on and on about we dont want a PvP server dispite it would not effect them at all cause they can just play on the server they already have :P

That sounds lame, New World could probably get a heavier PvP server...

But remember that Amazon changed New World supposedly because they saw just how ruthless the PKers were (and somehow couldn't come up with a better way to fix it than adding direct flagging).

At least, that's their own claim.