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Sociopathic/Psychopathic behavior in PvP focused MMOs

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Comments

  • Depraved wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    you want to change player behaviour and human nature. basically, you want everyone else to change but you. or you want to change the game for you. ok how about this. this problem wouldnt exist if you toughened up.

    change yourself (using your logic). there, problem solved.

    Wait.
    So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
    Yeah just toughen up I guess.


    but it also depends on the game. if you are in an opt in area or event and you get killed by a higher level player, there isnt anything wrong with that. you are taking farm that the other player could take. its an opt in event. no one has to protect your feelings. everybody is just trying to win, not make you miserable.

    But I am not talking about opt in stuff, I think I've been pretty clear there. I'm not talking about consensual PvP, and I am not talking about taking someone else's "farm". Again, I've been pretty clear here as well. PKing someone because they're occupying a farming spot isn't meaningless PvP, and that's not what this post was about.
    also, not seeing that you are the one with the issue is human nature as well. you are trying to change everybody else to adapt to you. its like me being fat and telling girls they MUST feel attracted to me, otherwise they are wrong, instead of me losing weight.

    bruh

    Asking for certain players to have some decency, and not to act like animals is apparently trying to change everyone to adapt to me.
    I don't think they will change btw, which is why I'm asking for the game to limit such behavior, by introducing certain rules/laws. That's hardly trying to change everyone to adapt to me.
  • NiKr wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    Every time someone says something along the line of I don't want my rivals to get stronger my brain auto-translate it to I prefer to fight weaker opponents, because otherwise I would have to face some risks. And I'm insecure. Kind of like bullies.
    Is competition bullying?

    Say there's a limited amount of slots for a training camp for soccer teams and those slots get filled up by gaining points in matches. If team A does their absolute best to win against team B in a match because this would prevent team B from getting enough points for the camp - is that bullying?

    Wanting your enemies to be as strong as you, so that you can have fun and equal pvp, is cool and all, but it's literally impossible in the moment of a single respawn of a valuable resource. I guess giving up the second farm could be a way of "balancing the scales", but I'd be curious to see any kind of stats on how many people out there, in any competitive environment, willingly give up their advantage "just to be fair".

    I think I've seen a few situations where runners helped someone in front of them when that person had some issues, but those kinds of situations are the exception that proves the rule afaik.

    Sorry for the delay, I had to sleep and go to work. During that time many have brought points I wanted to bring, so I may repeat a few.

    Short answer: no. Competition is not bullying. My point was more that bullying is not competing, but I need to bring nuances affecting both sides.

    What type of competition are we talking about? Friendly competition such as in sports or games, or are we talking about the more savage competition of geopolitics, economic, and war?

    In "friendly" competition, the participants are subject to the same rules, breaking the rules isn't supposed to be a recognized option, doing so openly leads to it being call out, doing it covertly is called cheating. Friendly competition also usually imply some sort pairing by skill level (ranking, leagues, weight categories, etc). All these rules are to ensure some fairness in the contest. A pro mma fighter going to a local judo club to fight against 8 years olds white belts wouldn't be considered, at least by sane people, a competition.

    When money, world influence and power are involved, well, I wouldn't say there are no rules, but we all know it's not the same. Let's just say that those with power will use it to advance their goals. The point of competing is to stay in business, alive, not being dominated, ... Life's not fair. Picking on those that can't defend themselves is not only tolerate, it's a valid tactics. Why competing if you can simply buy the competitor?

    And then we have games that try to emulate some aspect of the ruthless real world... If the participants came expecting to engage for the same goals, all is usually fine. RTS players can't complain that their opponents try to stop their progress and kill them, that's what the game is about. But, being a game, players still expect a minimum of fairness in the pairing.

    MMOs, trying to simulate believable world, have many kind of features, and thus attract players wanting many different things out of the game. PvP can be one of the features. Arenas and battlegrounds can pair players automatically using some form of ranking for a certain level of fairness. No such thing in the open world. My take was that if someone only pick on those they know are weaker than them they don't want to compete: they want to dominate, impose their will. Hit your enemy where he is weak and have him face you where you are strong... Yeah, I read the book too... “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.” The point is not about fighting or competing: it's about winning.

    In pro sport, sport entertainment, for the leagues to have a semblance of competition, all teams need to be within a believable level of comparable skills. Their raison d'être is far more about making money than what's going on on the field (their goals, not the spectators). At some point, a team that's too strong, or too weak, is bad for the league, and it's in the interest of all teams to insure the appearances of fairness. Same for a mmo: if some players dominate others too easily, or for too long, they run the risk of having no opponents to fight... Grats! You've turned your PvP game/server into a PvE one. No more PvP for you. But, hey, you've won the game.

    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • iccericcer Member
    edited October 2023
    Percimes wrote: »
    NiKr wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    Every time someone says something along the line of I don't want my rivals to get stronger my brain auto-translate it to I prefer to fight weaker opponents, because otherwise I would have to face some risks. And I'm insecure. Kind of like bullies.
    Is competition bullying?

    Say there's a limited amount of slots for a training camp for soccer teams and those slots get filled up by gaining points in matches. If team A does their absolute best to win against team B in a match because this would prevent team B from getting enough points for the camp - is that bullying?

    Wanting your enemies to be as strong as you, so that you can have fun and equal pvp, is cool and all, but it's literally impossible in the moment of a single respawn of a valuable resource. I guess giving up the second farm could be a way of "balancing the scales", but I'd be curious to see any kind of stats on how many people out there, in any competitive environment, willingly give up their advantage "just to be fair".

    I think I've seen a few situations where runners helped someone in front of them when that person had some issues, but those kinds of situations are the exception that proves the rule afaik.

    Sorry for the delay, I had to sleep and go to work. During that time many have brought points I wanted to bring, so I may repeat a few.

    Short answer: no. Competition is not bullying. My point was more that bullying is not competing, but I need to bring nuances affecting both sides.

    What type of competition are we talking about? Friendly competition such as in sports or games, or are we talking about the more savage competition of geopolitics, economic, and war?

    In "friendly" competition, the participants are subject to the same rules, breaking the rules isn't supposed to be a recognized option, doing so openly leads to it being call out, doing it covertly is called cheating. Friendly competition also usually imply some sort pairing by skill level (ranking, leagues, weight categories, etc). All these rules are to ensure some fairness in the contest. A pro mma fighter going to a local judo club to fight against 8 years olds white belts wouldn't be considered, at least by sane people, a competition.

    When money, world influence and power are involved, well, I wouldn't say there are no rules, but we all know it's not the same. Let's just say that those with power will use it to advance their goals. The point of competing is to stay in business, alive, not being dominated, ... Life's not fair. Picking on those that can't defend themselves is not only tolerate, it's a valid tactics. Why competing if you can simply buy the competitor?

    And then we have games that try to emulate some aspect of the ruthless real world... If the participants came expecting to engage for the same goals, all is usually fine. RTS players can't complain that their opponents try to stop their progress and kill them, that's what the game is about. But, being a game, players still expect a minimum of fairness in the pairing.

    MMOs, trying to simulate believable world, have many kind of features, and thus attract players wanting many different things out of the game. PvP can be one of the features. Arenas and battlegrounds can pair players automatically using some form of ranking for a certain level of fairness. No such thing in the open world. My take was that if someone only pick on those they know are weaker than them they don't want to compete: they want to dominate, impose their will. Hit your enemy where he is weak and have him face you where you are strong... Yeah, I read the book too... “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.” The point is not about fighting or competing: it's about winning.

    In pro sport, sport entertainment, for the leagues to have a semblance of competition, all teams need to be within a believable level of comparable skills. Their raison d'être is far more about making money than what's going on on the field (their goals, not the spectators). At some point, a team that's too strong, or too weak, is bad for the league, and it's in the interest of all teams to insure the appearances of fairness. Same for a mmo: if some players dominate others too easily, or for too long, they run the risk of having no opponents to fight... Grats! You've turned your PvP game/server into a PvE one. No more PvP for you. But, hey, you've won the game.

    Thank you.

    It's exactly what I was thinking about, but could never actually bother to explain, because I thought it was common sense? I guess.
    My take was that if someone only pick on those they know are weaker than them they don't want to compete: they want to dominate, impose their will.

    This is the key part, and what my whole argument is also about (besides the killing being pointless). This is not about competition in itself, or competition for resources, or something similar. This is only about wanting to dominate, impose their will, and make others lose - that's the PvP I have an issue with, in the open-world, because it leads to pointless ganking of weaker players.

  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    This is the key part, and what my whole argument is also about (besides the killing being pointless). This is not about competition in itself, or competition for resources, or something similar. This is only about wanting to dominate, impose their will, and make others lose - that's the PvP I have an issue with, in the open-world, because it leads to pointless ganking of weaker players.
    And corruption is there to limit this behavior as much as possible.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    you want to change player behaviour and human nature. basically, you want everyone else to change but you. or you want to change the game for you. ok how about this. this problem wouldnt exist if you toughened up.

    change yourself (using your logic). there, problem solved.

    Wait.
    So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
    Yeah just toughen up I guess.


    but it also depends on the game. if you are in an opt in area or event and you get killed by a higher level player, there isnt anything wrong with that. you are taking farm that the other player could take. its an opt in event. no one has to protect your feelings. everybody is just trying to win, not make you miserable.

    But I am not talking about opt in stuff, I think I've been pretty clear there. I'm not talking about consensual PvP, and I am not talking about taking someone else's "farm". Again, I've been pretty clear here as well. PKing someone because they're occupying a farming spot isn't meaningless PvP, and that's not what this post was about.
    also, not seeing that you are the one with the issue is human nature as well. you are trying to change everybody else to adapt to you. its like me being fat and telling girls they MUST feel attracted to me, otherwise they are wrong, instead of me losing weight.

    bruh

    Asking for certain players to have some decency, and not to act like animals is apparently trying to change everyone to adapt to me.
    I don't think they will change btw, which is why I'm asking for the game to limit such behavior, by introducing certain rules/laws. That's hardly trying to change everyone to adapt to me.

    yes it is. you are asking the game to change to adapt to you. you want to limit what other people can do because you dont like it or its convenient to you when there are other solutions that can be taken, such as grouping, running, etc

    what if i said, hey intrepid can you make it so that you cant gain progress after playing for 1 hour? its not fair that i only have 1 hour a day to play and ill never be able to catch up with people who play 5-10 hours a day. people should play less, dont rush, etc.

    intrepid already ptu a system in place to limit that behavior. but you want to completely eliminate it? so this game is aimed at people who like open world pvp and non consensual pvp. changing the game for you is not what its best for the game and the majority of people who like ti as it is.
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    if there isnt open world pvp, how do you propose players deal with annoying pvers? or pve griefers. now you cant kill them anymore.

    pvers can be toxic too and try to dominate and impose their will.

    if there isnt open world pvp, how are we going to compete for farming spots? plenty of games do not have open world pvp, why try to change basically the only promising one that does, the one that many many many people have been waiting for?

  • NiKr wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    This is the key part, and what my whole argument is also about (besides the killing being pointless). This is not about competition in itself, or competition for resources, or something similar. This is only about wanting to dominate, impose their will, and make others lose - that's the PvP I have an issue with, in the open-world, because it leads to pointless ganking of weaker players.
    And corruption is there to limit this behavior as much as possible.

    Great! And I hope the corruption system fulfills this role.

    We'll see when we get to actually play the game.
    Depraved wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    you want to change player behaviour and human nature. basically, you want everyone else to change but you. or you want to change the game for you. ok how about this. this problem wouldnt exist if you toughened up.

    change yourself (using your logic). there, problem solved.

    Wait.
    So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
    Yeah just toughen up I guess.


    but it also depends on the game. if you are in an opt in area or event and you get killed by a higher level player, there isnt anything wrong with that. you are taking farm that the other player could take. its an opt in event. no one has to protect your feelings. everybody is just trying to win, not make you miserable.

    But I am not talking about opt in stuff, I think I've been pretty clear there. I'm not talking about consensual PvP, and I am not talking about taking someone else's "farm". Again, I've been pretty clear here as well. PKing someone because they're occupying a farming spot isn't meaningless PvP, and that's not what this post was about.
    also, not seeing that you are the one with the issue is human nature as well. you are trying to change everybody else to adapt to you. its like me being fat and telling girls they MUST feel attracted to me, otherwise they are wrong, instead of me losing weight.

    bruh

    Asking for certain players to have some decency, and not to act like animals is apparently trying to change everyone to adapt to me.
    I don't think they will change btw, which is why I'm asking for the game to limit such behavior, by introducing certain rules/laws. That's hardly trying to change everyone to adapt to me.

    yes it is. you are asking the game to change to adapt to you. you want to limit what other people can do because you dont like it or its convenient to you when there are other solutions that can be taken, such as grouping, running, etc

    what if i said, hey intrepid can you make it so that you cant gain progress after playing for 1 hour? its not fair that i only have 1 hour a day to play and ill never be able to catch up with people who play 5-10 hours a day. people should play less, dont rush, etc.

    intrepid already ptu a system in place to limit that behavior. but you want to completely eliminate it? so this game is aimed at people who like open world pvp and non consensual pvp. changing the game for you is not what its best for the game and the majority of people who like ti as it is.

    They have put the system in place to limit that behavior? Great, that's all I asked for! Let's see if it works or not, when the game releases.

    So I'm not trying to completely change the game, after all, am I?
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    also, not seeing that you are the one with the issue is human nature as well. you are trying to change everybody else to adapt to you. its like me being fat and telling girls they MUST feel attracted to me, otherwise they are wrong, instead of me losing weight.

    Heh, that happens way too much these days already. We're not "body-shaming", you're just fat. I know this cos I'm fat too, and I can recognise it quite easily! LOL
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


    giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=b603632fp2svffcmdi83yynpfpexo413mpb1qzxnh3cei0nx&ep=v1_gifs_gifId&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=s
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    also, not seeing that you are the one with the issue is human nature as well. you are trying to change everybody else to adapt to you. its like me being fat and telling girls they MUST feel attracted to me, otherwise they are wrong, instead of me losing weight.

    Heh, that happens way too much these days already. We're not "body-shaming", you're just fat. I know this cos I'm fat too, and I can recognise it quite easily! LOL

    slaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy
  • edited October 2023
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    also, not seeing that you are the one with the issue is human nature as well. you are trying to change everybody else to adapt to you. its like me being fat and telling girls they MUST feel attracted to me, otherwise they are wrong, instead of me losing weight.

    Heh, that happens way too much these days already. We're not "body-shaming", you're just fat. I know this cos I'm fat too, and I can recognise it quite easily! LOL

    reminds me of the whole female body armour debate a while back. If you were against or for it, you were shaming one or the other by allowing and not allowing, lol.

    EDIT:

    no matter ones stance, people can throw around labels like shaming. It's all perspectives.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    The issue in my opinion with psychopathic behavior is, that it is not clearly isolated from "desirable" behavior and it is therefore not possible to "not allow" it in a game. Let me quicky go through the list
    • Lack of empathy for others - how would you measure that? There is no clear "amount" of empathy that could be defined as "necessary to be an acceptable player"
    • Impulsive behavior - Event quests also require impulsivity. Going to that strange landmark that one just happens to come across or going into that cave on just has discovered while farming. Again - hard to measure and even harder to judge what is "desirable" or not
    • Attempting to control others with threats or aggression - To a degree yes, but player won't threaten other players directly most of the times, if they do, they are easily filtered out and banned. Threatening ingame PvP however is part of the game, so another tricky one.
    • Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others - Again the difference between "desirable" and "undesirable" behavior is very blurry here, especially since Ashes' economy will have dimension of negotiation to it that most games won't: Information advantage. I might "trick" someone into selling me iron for 1gold a bar because he thinks its a good deal but I know it's not because one node over I can sell it for 5g. Was I manipulating the seller by withholding information that could make him a bigger profit? Sure. But is that something Intrepid would or even COULD punish? Hardly.
    • Not learning from mistakes or punishment - repeated violation of ingame rules has long been covered
      so we are probably good on that front already.
    • Lying for personal gain - Look no further than my example two points above.
    • Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights - not really applicable in a game that allows PvP and has it as a core part of the gameplay loop. Of course that could be stopped by making it so that PvP can only happen through flagging oneself deliberately. But if that is the "solution" one demands this game is just not for you and the right move would be to vote with your feet and not give money to Intrepid.
    • Generally superficial relationships - out of the scope of what the game can know about or measure accurately
    • Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes - definitely out of scope
    • Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act - recorded in chat and therefore detectible as manipulation or a mental health emergency
    • Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol - out of scope
    • Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.- also out of scope

    My point: Yes there are players that will find enjoyment in ruining the game for others but when someone designs an open world PvX game that cannot be prevented by the devs, but they can provide the tools to reduce the impact of these players. Example: give players the ability to "block a person".
    This means
    - it applies to all characters of person, across accounts by linking the "block a person" feature to payment data (which obviously are kept private)
    - if a person is blocked they no longer see nor buy goods from the person (and this persons characters) who blocked them, same applies the other way around
    - they cannot message each other
    - they can't see any information of the person that blocked them, neither ingame, nor on the forum
    - they can only run into each other in character and fight in open PvP.

    Think the ultimate information embargo and economic sanction, that is what a "block person" feature could do. Does this stop the psychopathic people from acting psychopathic? Not completely but it gradually isolates them more and more from other players until they are stuck alone in a world oriented for group experiences. And even if they set up new accounts, the block person feature will dectect that and extend the block to these new accounts.

    That is an example of what I think would be possible, but completely getting rid of them is not possible.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • Mfcrackers69Mfcrackers69 Member, Alpha Two

    Will you play Alpha 2 or will you just watch streams to see how the game evolves?[/quote]

    I will PLAY A2.... I need more COPIUM... hey .. anyone have some Copium.... 😢
  • Kilion wrote: »
    The issue in my opinion with psychopathic behavior is, that it is not clearly isolated from "desirable" behavior and it is therefore not possible to "not allow" it in a game. Let me quicky go through the list
    • Lack of empathy for others - how would you measure that? There is no clear "amount" of empathy that could be defined as "necessary to be an acceptable player"
    • Impulsive behavior - Event quests also require impulsivity. Going to that strange landmark that one just happens to come across or going into that cave on just has discovered while farming. Again - hard to measure and even harder to judge what is "desirable" or not
    • Attempting to control others with threats or aggression - To a degree yes, but player won't threaten other players directly most of the times, if they do, they are easily filtered out and banned. Threatening ingame PvP however is part of the game, so another tricky one.
    • Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others - Again the difference between "desirable" and "undesirable" behavior is very blurry here, especially since Ashes' economy will have dimension of negotiation to it that most games won't: Information advantage. I might "trick" someone into selling me iron for 1gold a bar because he thinks its a good deal but I know it's not because one node over I can sell it for 5g. Was I manipulating the seller by withholding information that could make him a bigger profit? Sure. But is that something Intrepid would or even COULD punish? Hardly.
    • Not learning from mistakes or punishment - repeated violation of ingame rules has long been covered
      so we are probably good on that front already.
    • Lying for personal gain - Look no further than my example two points above.
    • Showing a tendency to physical violence and fights - not really applicable in a game that allows PvP and has it as a core part of the gameplay loop. Of course that could be stopped by making it so that PvP can only happen through flagging oneself deliberately. But if that is the "solution" one demands this game is just not for you and the right move would be to vote with your feet and not give money to Intrepid.
    • Generally superficial relationships - out of the scope of what the game can know about or measure accurately
    • Sometimes, stealing or committing other crimes - definitely out of scope
    • Threatening suicide to manipulate without intention to act - recorded in chat and therefore detectible as manipulation or a mental health emergency
    • Sometimes, abusing drugs or alcohol - out of scope
    • Trouble with responsibilities such as a job, paying bills, etc.- also out of scope

    My point: Yes there are players that will find enjoyment in ruining the game for others but when someone designs an open world PvX game that cannot be prevented by the devs, but they can provide the tools to reduce the impact of these players. Example: give players the ability to "block a person".
    This means
    - it applies to all characters of person, across accounts by linking the "block a person" feature to payment data (which obviously are kept private)
    - if a person is blocked they no longer see nor buy goods from the person (and this persons characters) who blocked them, same applies the other way around
    - they cannot message each other
    - they can't see any information of the person that blocked them, neither ingame, nor on the forum
    - they can only run into each other in character and fight in open PvP.

    Think the ultimate information embargo and economic sanction, that is what a "block person" feature could do. Does this stop the psychopathic people from acting psychopathic? Not completely but it gradually isolates them more and more from other players until they are stuck alone in a world oriented for group experiences. And even if they set up new accounts, the block person feature will dectect that and extend the block to these new accounts.

    That is an example of what I think would be possible, but completely getting rid of them is not possible.

    Thank you as well, for being one of the few to actually engage with the topic and the main points, instead of spewing random bs and assuming stuff about people, and overall contributing nothing to the topic - even tho I might disagree with some point you made.

    I do agree that it can be hard to differentiate between actual psycho/sociopathic behavior, or just desirable behavior, as you've put it, especially in PvP MMOs.

    I myself have said that most of those things apply, in some ways at least, not all of them, so I will touch upon some of the stuff I disagree with here, though I do agree with a lot actually.

    - I'd measure the lack of empathy, simply by looking at how a player behaves around a red player.
    If the "desirable" behavior is to gain something from that encounter, be it materials/gatherables, opportunity to complete some event, then I think PvPing or PKing is fine, as that's how a game is designed, you probably need that stuff to progress, and it creates competition.
    But, if you just PK someone only for the fact they exist, while they aren't trying to compete for any of those mentioned things, but are just existing out there in the world, then I'd say that's a problem, and definitely at least a sign of a lack of empathy (but that shouldn't surprise anyone in the online world I guess, especially MMOs, where there are a lot of people that need to actually touch grass and go outside for once and interact with other humans in the real world).

    - Superficial relationships are another thing, and it's observable in the guilds.
    Some of those people I was talking about are only going to be in the guild for their own personal gain. They aren't there to interact with others and have fun. They're there just to use the guild as a tool to help them complete stuff, and increase their power/wealth. That's why you will rarely see them just hanging around in the guild chat, discord, or w/e, doing random bs with other members of the guild. They will only be there if the guild is completing content that they can benefit from.
    Now whether that's them having superficial relationships, or just being really self centered, selfish, etc. - I'm not sure.
    There are of course competitive people, that always want to be on top, or as close as possible to it, or even just want that grind to the top, that would just ignore stuff that's not going to help them reach that, people that are super efficient with their time, I guess, but I just know that's not the case for a lot of them, because they wouldn't spend time PKing for no reward, in that case.

  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    @iccer Okay but wouldn't these things be largely addressed through a "ban person" feature?

    To me that seems as close to a solution one will come without sacrificing game quality.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • Kilion wrote: »
    @iccer Okay but wouldn't these things be largely addressed through a "ban person" feature?

    To me that seems as close to a solution one will come without sacrificing game quality.

    I wouldn't say so. If by a "ban person feature" you mean completely blocking them.

    Ashes is already trying to implement the solution to this, and it's called corruption system, and I don't think they're sacrificing game quality.

  • EVERYTHING IS GRIFEABLE
  • Chess is grifeable, every game ever is grifeable, if we try to remove the possibility of player decisions then we have no game.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    @iccer Would you mind going back to the long comment I made and read through the things I meant with "blocking a person" and addressing which point you think is not effective in that?

    Because the corruption system is not doing what I proposed, the "person block" I described goes significantly beyond that.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    Is competition bullying ?

    Competing with others ? No ! 😁 👍

    What i personally always experienced WAY MORE as a Bully - is when People get all pissy and angry, over "Other Players" being able to get something,

    that the "bully-like Players" thought that these Players could not attain. Be it something "formerly" time-limited being attainable later on again,

    or something in general that they would love to "being DENIED" to other Players -> just for the Sake of it. 😅



    There was - for Example - a " DRAKE " - Middle-sized Dragon - in World of Warcraft, a few Months ago - which is called the "Felfire(?) Drake" if i am not wrong.

    This Mount - became available - as a Twitch Drop.


    Whoever watched a Twitch Streamer play World of Warcraft for One to Four Hours -> could get this Mount as a Drop - and could have the Mount in the Game, if they had their Twitch Account connected to their World of Warcraft (Battle-Net) Account.


    Guess what ... ... ;) ... ... :D ... ... 😅



    People were P~IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSED OFF for some magical Reason i fail to understand,

    about other People being able to get a Mount - which apparently was no longer attainable in the Game since quite a few Years or so.


    A Mount from which even " i " (lol) as a former Vanilla Player had no Idea even existed. 🤣👍



    What " IS " it always - with some Players getting all "sour and pissy" at someone else, for said someone else just being able to GET SOMETHING ?? To be "lucky" a little bit, or so ??


    This is so nauseatingly toxic and disgusting to watch. Always this "NOT granting others Anything"-thingy.


    Ashes of Creation will be a Game in a Fantasy Universe.

    And i intend to Roleplay inside it, to my Hearts Content.





    " IMAGINE " walking and passing by a Beggar in the City - as an Adventurer.

    And then getting all PISSY (lol) because someone gave him a bit of Money after he begged for it, because he hadn't eaten since Two Days or so.


    Or imagine seeing another "Adventurer" being lucky and getting something. He or she is very happy.

    Imagine having nothing to do with them, but getting ALL ANGRY that someone else might be lucky or have some Success.



    By the Gods. 😅

    This personally i will always - ALWAYS - book and mark down as Sociopathic Behaviour, in my mind.
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    What " IS " it always - with some Players getting all "sour and pissy" at someone else, for said someone else just being able to GET SOMETHING ?? To be "lucky" a little bit, or so ??
    It's about their effort becoming meaningless. They might've worked for weeks for smth and then a newer player just suddenly gets it "for free", which makes all that weeks-long effort pointless.

    This is also why a lot of people hate p2w, because any in-game effort becomes pointless against a dude who can just buy shit.

    This same psychology applies irl to stuff like cancelling student loan debt or universal basic income or smth else like that. And the hate usually comes from people who've gone through decades of hard work and would have pretty much no impact on their own life from those changes, except that their previous effort would seem useless to them, because now people would get the same stuff they did but with less/no effort.
  • iccericcer Member
    edited October 2023
    Kilion wrote: »
    @iccer Would you mind going back to the long comment I made and read through the things I meant with "blocking a person" and addressing which point you think is not effective in that?

    Because the corruption system is not doing what I proposed, the "person block" I described goes significantly beyond that.

    Because it's a good proposal in theory, in practice, it won't do much. There will always be enough people that will interact with that person, so they will never be or feel isolated.

    Again, you are relying on others to deal with those people. Just like the previous example of PvE players gathering up and standing up to the bully, except this would be even less common that that, because it would require majority of the server to have that person blocked.

    Not opposed to that kind of system, I just don't think it would be that effective.

  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    Well, you have to remember these kinds of systems don't exist in isolation of each other. Like the systems we engage with from the actual gameplay loop perspective, the other systems running in the background and manage players also work together. Intrepid could definitely use the amount and frequency by which people use the "block person" function as a stark indicator for something being amiss and requiring more attention. And note that since the block goes both ways, overusing the feature will going to hurt the one blocking all these people as well. If I were to get butthurt everytime someone killed me in a siege and block the person I'd soon have noone on the server to play with. Additionally I'd also be sending behavioral signals at the system and might become monitored myself.

    So yes Intrepid is relying partly on the players but that is because they cannot do it any other way without (imo) greatly reducing the game quality by restricting players agency from the get go, which from my point of view would be punishing the many for the sins of the few. And that is also the reason why I prefer the approach to have players be able to send powerful signals to Intrepid.
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    why prevent trading with someone you have blocked? if that person is offering a good deal, take it. dont let your personal feelings get in the way of business.

    so what if they are 10 levels higher than you and ganked you. you can still sell to them or buy from them. one thing doesnt have to do anything ith the other.

    also, why punish someone who killed a low level when the punishment is basically nothing related to pvping.
  • This whole thread is a great example of the toxic behavior we are gunna see in game lol.

    But really, I'm just interested to see how servers evolve after 6+ months. I do have a bad feeling every server is going to be run by 2-3 mega guilds, and you're forced into one of the guilds or else you'll be severely limited in what you can do. Yes it's an MMO and you should be required to play with others, but I don't think you should be locked out of significant portions of content for not playing with one of the mega guilds. Not everyone is going to have the best gear and you might not see every dungeon / raid or own a freehold and that's fine, but imagine not being able to do a 1/3 of the game's content because the other mega guild controls that part of the world. You can say this game is not for everyone and that true, but it's not going to be healthy when every server starts losing players because they can't play the game anymore without joining the zerg. Imagine new content for the game drops: good luck getting to do that content without being in the mega guild. You need people who want to play different parts in the game to fill out that world.

    I think people have forgotten how to play games for fun and just want to join the biggest best guild so they can "win". Just think of how people are treated in WoW for playing a sub-optimal spec, or for not grinding out that one item to give yourself a 0.1% increase in damage. I think the "I'm not having fun unless I'm winning" mentality is the real source of toxicity.

    And please Intrepid, do the obvious things and have plenty of customer support to ban unequivocally toxic players. Nothing ruins a game more than people literally yelling racial slurs in chat or spelling out slurs in dead bodies and nothing happening.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    Sago65 wrote: »
    I think people have forgotten how to play games for fun and just want to join the biggest best guild so they can "win". Just think of how people are treated in WoW for playing a sub-optimal spec, or for not grinding out that one item to give yourself a 0.1% increase in damage. I think the "I'm not having fun unless I'm winning" mentality is the real source of toxicity.

    There’s a not-unsubstantial segment of players that are just in it to win it. Hardcore, theory crafting, min-maxing, 14 hour-a-day players that will aggressively pursue their (or their guild’s) goals. Totally doesn’t sound fun to me, but it doesn’t have to. That’s their game, that’s fun to them, and it doesn’t make them toxic or sociopaths.

    Accepting that other players are going to play differently than you and have fun doing it IS empathy.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • IrishSage1IrishSage1 Member
    edited October 2023
    I read this post on the forum this morning, I was struck how the OP pointed to manipulation as a symptom of these behavior types, yet the entire post was a attempt to manipulate and control the direction of the game to be more what OP wants, so by his own definition, isn't he a sociopath? Does he have no empathy for people who enjoy PvP? Super narcissistic as well... I mean....the examples you espoused seem to apply to you as well. 🤡
    You already know what this game is, and how it will function. You also know the direction gameplay will be going, yet you still made this post to do nothing but rile players up and poke the bear for your own enjoyment, because you know the direction is not changing.
    Pretty psychopathic to me.
  • KilionKilion Member, Alpha Two
    The IrishSavage roled in XD
    The answer is probably >>> HERE <<<
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    irishsage1 real name is exodia
  • iccericcer Member
    edited October 2023
    IrishSage1 wrote: »
    I read this post on the forum this morning, I was struck how the OP pointed to manipulation as a symptom of these behavior types, yet the entire post was a attempt to manipulate and control the direction of the game to be more what OP wants, so by his own definition, isn't he a sociopath? Does he have no empathy for people who enjoy PvP? Super narcissistic as well... I mean....the examples you espoused seem to apply to you as well. 🤡
    You already know what this game is, and how it will function. You also know the direction gameplay will be going, yet you still made this post to do nothing but rile players up and poke the bear for your own enjoyment, because you know the direction is not changing.
    Pretty psychopathic to me.

    Nah, you've just failed to read and understand my points. You've pretty much misinterpreted all of my points here in your reply, as it was not what I was suggesting at all.

    🤡
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    IrishSage1 wrote: »
    I read this post on the forum this morning, I was struck how the OP pointed to manipulation as a symptom of these behavior types, yet the entire post was a attempt to manipulate and control the direction of the game to be more what OP wants, so by his own definition, isn't he a sociopath? Does he have no empathy for people who enjoy PvP? Super narcissistic as well... I mean....the examples you espoused seem to apply to you as well. 🤡
    You already know what this game is, and how it will function. You also know the direction gameplay will be going, yet you still made this post to do nothing but rile players up and poke the bear for your own enjoyment, because you know the direction is not changing.
    Pretty psychopathic to me.

    Nah, you've just failed to read and understand my points. You've pretty much misinterpreted all of my points here in your reply, as it was not what I was suggesting at all.

    🤡

    u always say the same every time someone calls you out...that behavior seems familiar hmm. i think i saw a guy posting in a video game forum about it.
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