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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
But I am not talking about opt in stuff, I think I've been pretty clear there. I'm not talking about consensual PvP, and I am not talking about taking someone else's "farm". Again, I've been pretty clear here as well. PKing someone because they're occupying a farming spot isn't meaningless PvP, and that's not what this post was about.
bruh
Asking for certain players to have some decency, and not to act like animals is apparently trying to change everyone to adapt to me.
I don't think they will change btw, which is why I'm asking for the game to limit such behavior, by introducing certain rules/laws. That's hardly trying to change everyone to adapt to me.
Sorry for the delay, I had to sleep and go to work. During that time many have brought points I wanted to bring, so I may repeat a few.
Short answer: no. Competition is not bullying. My point was more that bullying is not competing, but I need to bring nuances affecting both sides.
What type of competition are we talking about? Friendly competition such as in sports or games, or are we talking about the more savage competition of geopolitics, economic, and war?
In "friendly" competition, the participants are subject to the same rules, breaking the rules isn't supposed to be a recognized option, doing so openly leads to it being call out, doing it covertly is called cheating. Friendly competition also usually imply some sort pairing by skill level (ranking, leagues, weight categories, etc). All these rules are to ensure some fairness in the contest. A pro mma fighter going to a local judo club to fight against 8 years olds white belts wouldn't be considered, at least by sane people, a competition.
When money, world influence and power are involved, well, I wouldn't say there are no rules, but we all know it's not the same. Let's just say that those with power will use it to advance their goals. The point of competing is to stay in business, alive, not being dominated, ... Life's not fair. Picking on those that can't defend themselves is not only tolerate, it's a valid tactics. Why competing if you can simply buy the competitor?
And then we have games that try to emulate some aspect of the ruthless real world... If the participants came expecting to engage for the same goals, all is usually fine. RTS players can't complain that their opponents try to stop their progress and kill them, that's what the game is about. But, being a game, players still expect a minimum of fairness in the pairing.
MMOs, trying to simulate believable world, have many kind of features, and thus attract players wanting many different things out of the game. PvP can be one of the features. Arenas and battlegrounds can pair players automatically using some form of ranking for a certain level of fairness. No such thing in the open world. My take was that if someone only pick on those they know are weaker than them they don't want to compete: they want to dominate, impose their will. Hit your enemy where he is weak and have him face you where you are strong... Yeah, I read the book too... “Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.” The point is not about fighting or competing: it's about winning.
In pro sport, sport entertainment, for the leagues to have a semblance of competition, all teams need to be within a believable level of comparable skills. Their raison d'être is far more about making money than what's going on on the field (their goals, not the spectators). At some point, a team that's too strong, or too weak, is bad for the league, and it's in the interest of all teams to insure the appearances of fairness. Same for a mmo: if some players dominate others too easily, or for too long, they run the risk of having no opponents to fight... Grats! You've turned your PvP game/server into a PvE one. No more PvP for you. But, hey, you've won the game.
Thank you.
It's exactly what I was thinking about, but could never actually bother to explain, because I thought it was common sense? I guess.
This is the key part, and what my whole argument is also about (besides the killing being pointless). This is not about competition in itself, or competition for resources, or something similar. This is only about wanting to dominate, impose their will, and make others lose - that's the PvP I have an issue with, in the open-world, because it leads to pointless ganking of weaker players.
yes it is. you are asking the game to change to adapt to you. you want to limit what other people can do because you dont like it or its convenient to you when there are other solutions that can be taken, such as grouping, running, etc
what if i said, hey intrepid can you make it so that you cant gain progress after playing for 1 hour? its not fair that i only have 1 hour a day to play and ill never be able to catch up with people who play 5-10 hours a day. people should play less, dont rush, etc.
intrepid already ptu a system in place to limit that behavior. but you want to completely eliminate it? so this game is aimed at people who like open world pvp and non consensual pvp. changing the game for you is not what its best for the game and the majority of people who like ti as it is.
pvers can be toxic too and try to dominate and impose their will.
if there isnt open world pvp, how are we going to compete for farming spots? plenty of games do not have open world pvp, why try to change basically the only promising one that does, the one that many many many people have been waiting for?
Great! And I hope the corruption system fulfills this role.
We'll see when we get to actually play the game.
They have put the system in place to limit that behavior? Great, that's all I asked for! Let's see if it works or not, when the game releases.
So I'm not trying to completely change the game, after all, am I?
Heh, that happens way too much these days already. We're not "body-shaming", you're just fat. I know this cos I'm fat too, and I can recognise it quite easily! LOL
slaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy
reminds me of the whole female body armour debate a while back. If you were against or for it, you were shaming one or the other by allowing and not allowing, lol.
EDIT:
no matter ones stance, people can throw around labels like shaming. It's all perspectives.
so we are probably good on that front already.
My point: Yes there are players that will find enjoyment in ruining the game for others but when someone designs an open world PvX game that cannot be prevented by the devs, but they can provide the tools to reduce the impact of these players. Example: give players the ability to "block a person".
This means
- it applies to all characters of person, across accounts by linking the "block a person" feature to payment data (which obviously are kept private)
- if a person is blocked they no longer see nor buy goods from the person (and this persons characters) who blocked them, same applies the other way around
- they cannot message each other
- they can't see any information of the person that blocked them, neither ingame, nor on the forum
- they can only run into each other in character and fight in open PvP.
Think the ultimate information embargo and economic sanction, that is what a "block person" feature could do. Does this stop the psychopathic people from acting psychopathic? Not completely but it gradually isolates them more and more from other players until they are stuck alone in a world oriented for group experiences. And even if they set up new accounts, the block person feature will dectect that and extend the block to these new accounts.
That is an example of what I think would be possible, but completely getting rid of them is not possible.
Will you play Alpha 2 or will you just watch streams to see how the game evolves?[/quote]
I will PLAY A2.... I need more COPIUM... hey .. anyone have some Copium.... 😢
Thank you as well, for being one of the few to actually engage with the topic and the main points, instead of spewing random bs and assuming stuff about people, and overall contributing nothing to the topic - even tho I might disagree with some point you made.
I do agree that it can be hard to differentiate between actual psycho/sociopathic behavior, or just desirable behavior, as you've put it, especially in PvP MMOs.
I myself have said that most of those things apply, in some ways at least, not all of them, so I will touch upon some of the stuff I disagree with here, though I do agree with a lot actually.
- I'd measure the lack of empathy, simply by looking at how a player behaves around a red player.
If the "desirable" behavior is to gain something from that encounter, be it materials/gatherables, opportunity to complete some event, then I think PvPing or PKing is fine, as that's how a game is designed, you probably need that stuff to progress, and it creates competition.
But, if you just PK someone only for the fact they exist, while they aren't trying to compete for any of those mentioned things, but are just existing out there in the world, then I'd say that's a problem, and definitely at least a sign of a lack of empathy (but that shouldn't surprise anyone in the online world I guess, especially MMOs, where there are a lot of people that need to actually touch grass and go outside for once and interact with other humans in the real world).
- Superficial relationships are another thing, and it's observable in the guilds.
Some of those people I was talking about are only going to be in the guild for their own personal gain. They aren't there to interact with others and have fun. They're there just to use the guild as a tool to help them complete stuff, and increase their power/wealth. That's why you will rarely see them just hanging around in the guild chat, discord, or w/e, doing random bs with other members of the guild. They will only be there if the guild is completing content that they can benefit from.
Now whether that's them having superficial relationships, or just being really self centered, selfish, etc. - I'm not sure.
There are of course competitive people, that always want to be on top, or as close as possible to it, or even just want that grind to the top, that would just ignore stuff that's not going to help them reach that, people that are super efficient with their time, I guess, but I just know that's not the case for a lot of them, because they wouldn't spend time PKing for no reward, in that case.
To me that seems as close to a solution one will come without sacrificing game quality.
I wouldn't say so. If by a "ban person feature" you mean completely blocking them.
Ashes is already trying to implement the solution to this, and it's called corruption system, and I don't think they're sacrificing game quality.
Because the corruption system is not doing what I proposed, the "person block" I described goes significantly beyond that.
Competing with others ? No ! 😁 👍
What i personally always experienced WAY MORE as a Bully - is when People get all pissy and angry, over "Other Players" being able to get something,
that the "bully-like Players" thought that these Players could not attain. Be it something "formerly" time-limited being attainable later on again,
or something in general that they would love to "being DENIED" to other Players -> just for the Sake of it. 😅
There was - for Example - a " DRAKE " - Middle-sized Dragon - in World of Warcraft, a few Months ago - which is called the "Felfire(?) Drake" if i am not wrong.
This Mount - became available - as a Twitch Drop.
Whoever watched a Twitch Streamer play World of Warcraft for One to Four Hours -> could get this Mount as a Drop - and could have the Mount in the Game, if they had their Twitch Account connected to their World of Warcraft (Battle-Net) Account.
Guess what ... ...
People were P~IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSED OFF for some magical Reason i fail to understand,
about other People being able to get a Mount - which apparently was no longer attainable in the Game since quite a few Years or so.
A Mount from which even " i " (lol) as a former Vanilla Player had no Idea even existed. 🤣👍
What " IS " it always - with some Players getting all "sour and pissy" at someone else, for said someone else just being able to GET SOMETHING ?? To be "lucky" a little bit, or so ??
This is so nauseatingly toxic and disgusting to watch. Always this "NOT granting others Anything"-thingy.
Ashes of Creation will be a Game in a Fantasy Universe.
And i intend to Roleplay inside it, to my Hearts Content.
" IMAGINE " walking and passing by a Beggar in the City - as an Adventurer.
And then getting all PISSY (lol) because someone gave him a bit of Money after he begged for it, because he hadn't eaten since Two Days or so.
Or imagine seeing another "Adventurer" being lucky and getting something. He or she is very happy.
Imagine having nothing to do with them, but getting ALL ANGRY that someone else might be lucky or have some Success.
By the Gods. 😅
This personally i will always - ALWAYS - book and mark down as Sociopathic Behaviour, in my mind.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
This is also why a lot of people hate p2w, because any in-game effort becomes pointless against a dude who can just buy shit.
This same psychology applies irl to stuff like cancelling student loan debt or universal basic income or smth else like that. And the hate usually comes from people who've gone through decades of hard work and would have pretty much no impact on their own life from those changes, except that their previous effort would seem useless to them, because now people would get the same stuff they did but with less/no effort.
Because it's a good proposal in theory, in practice, it won't do much. There will always be enough people that will interact with that person, so they will never be or feel isolated.
Again, you are relying on others to deal with those people. Just like the previous example of PvE players gathering up and standing up to the bully, except this would be even less common that that, because it would require majority of the server to have that person blocked.
Not opposed to that kind of system, I just don't think it would be that effective.
So yes Intrepid is relying partly on the players but that is because they cannot do it any other way without (imo) greatly reducing the game quality by restricting players agency from the get go, which from my point of view would be punishing the many for the sins of the few. And that is also the reason why I prefer the approach to have players be able to send powerful signals to Intrepid.
so what if they are 10 levels higher than you and ganked you. you can still sell to them or buy from them. one thing doesnt have to do anything ith the other.
also, why punish someone who killed a low level when the punishment is basically nothing related to pvping.
But really, I'm just interested to see how servers evolve after 6+ months. I do have a bad feeling every server is going to be run by 2-3 mega guilds, and you're forced into one of the guilds or else you'll be severely limited in what you can do. Yes it's an MMO and you should be required to play with others, but I don't think you should be locked out of significant portions of content for not playing with one of the mega guilds. Not everyone is going to have the best gear and you might not see every dungeon / raid or own a freehold and that's fine, but imagine not being able to do a 1/3 of the game's content because the other mega guild controls that part of the world. You can say this game is not for everyone and that true, but it's not going to be healthy when every server starts losing players because they can't play the game anymore without joining the zerg. Imagine new content for the game drops: good luck getting to do that content without being in the mega guild. You need people who want to play different parts in the game to fill out that world.
I think people have forgotten how to play games for fun and just want to join the biggest best guild so they can "win". Just think of how people are treated in WoW for playing a sub-optimal spec, or for not grinding out that one item to give yourself a 0.1% increase in damage. I think the "I'm not having fun unless I'm winning" mentality is the real source of toxicity.
And please Intrepid, do the obvious things and have plenty of customer support to ban unequivocally toxic players. Nothing ruins a game more than people literally yelling racial slurs in chat or spelling out slurs in dead bodies and nothing happening.
There’s a not-unsubstantial segment of players that are just in it to win it. Hardcore, theory crafting, min-maxing, 14 hour-a-day players that will aggressively pursue their (or their guild’s) goals. Totally doesn’t sound fun to me, but it doesn’t have to. That’s their game, that’s fun to them, and it doesn’t make them toxic or sociopaths.
Accepting that other players are going to play differently than you and have fun doing it IS empathy.
You already know what this game is, and how it will function. You also know the direction gameplay will be going, yet you still made this post to do nothing but rile players up and poke the bear for your own enjoyment, because you know the direction is not changing.
Pretty psychopathic to me.
Nah, you've just failed to read and understand my points. You've pretty much misinterpreted all of my points here in your reply, as it was not what I was suggesting at all.
🤡
u always say the same every time someone calls you out...that behavior seems familiar hmm. i think i saw a guy posting in a video game forum about it.