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Comments
There a few system in place tbh to stop mindless pvp kills
1 - Obvious corruption system there enough of a penalty associated with this to make peopel think twice about a kill and kiling people who have 0 shot at winning aka greatly lower level than u will punish you with more corruption point
2 - The bag system if your harvesting tree for example a player may not kill you because there no reward for them simply cause there bags they currently have equipment might not hold a 1x3 size log or not enough to warrant the corruption hit, however if they were also logging trees then they might cause they be able to loot everything from you but the tetris system from resource loot can limit the PK actions since not everyone is a loot pinata since u cant carry there loot due to bag types
3- there systems in place to allow for unpunished PvP to take place so people who want to pvp will usualy seek those avenue to get there PvP fix alot of the time. They be more likly to attack people/guild there either at war with or those at caravans rather than random players that happen to be going past at the time.
there guild house was ontop of a cliff so you could go to the edge and trop the tradepack on the ground and it clip to the land below it by the ocean since you placed the pack infront of you, were we just had a crew load up the packs onto the ship to go sell them :P I think they donated roughly 12k gold to our guild this way which was alot considering it was only like 2 months into the game lol
Wait.
So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
Yeah just toughen up I guess.
It's not the ganking itself, it's how they have no regard for others, and it's like they're playing a single player game filled with NPCs. They're obsessed with themselves, their own progress, that they'd gladly f*** people over if it meant they are going to progress. It's about the mentality, not just the act of ganking itself. I'm just assuming that the ganking is the result of that sort of mentality.
And yeah, I also think it's the game design that's kind of encouraging this sort of behavior in many people.
Yes, and that remains to be seen, I'm just hoping it doesn't go to either of the 2 extremes, but leaning more into encouraging ganks only if there's a really good reason to do so.
It depends. In some games, I can't be bothered to join a guild, because the game usually doesn't require you to have one, and I'm probably not gonna play for long anyways.
In Archeage, you really want to be in one. Everything is more fun when you find a normal group of non-toxic, non-sweaty/hardcore people. That's why I usually try to join smaller/medium sized guilds, that are PvX, and semi-hardcore/semi-casual, but also those that actually do content together. There's no pressure to always compete, there's no pressure to always play be available every day.
So I wouldn't say I have a hard time joining a guild, it's just that I'm picky with what type of a guild I join.
it was very much a PvP 3 faction game during beta but the PvE players cried so hard that they ended up doing a complete 360 and they spent the last 3 months before release removing all PvP from the gamne and trying to scrape together PvE content instead of bug fixing, if they kept with the PvP game and toned back the gank fest with level requirments or punihsments for kiling players with to larg eof a level gap then it probaly would of went better for them.
i would go back to play new world tbh if they had a always on pvp server atleast till AoC
I don't really know, I only know what they said (it didn't seem like the kind of game I needed to play in its current design, because I figured they were gonna change it).
So I'm glad you had that experience, I'm just noting that Amazon's statement was talking about a less common experience. Specifically:
One of the problems we observed with this system was that some high level players were killing low level players, A LOT. Sometimes exclusively. This often led to solo or group griefing scenarios that created a toxic environment for many players. To be clear, this behavior was not shown by all PvP players, but enough to cause significant issues.
We set out to build a compelling world full of danger and opportunity that begs to be explored. The intended design was never to allow a small group of players to bully other players. Based on what we saw, we realized that we needed to make fundamental changes and not just incremental fixes, (which we tried several times during the Closed Alpha).
I don't know why that last part is there. But they decided to go the 'fundamental changes' route, so we got what we have now. Maybe it wasn't possible to do it just by balancing because of the type of person that played New World. Maybe they didn't give it enough time to see all the effects properly.
I just agree that I find it weird that they wouldn't give you back the original form of the game. The worst that would happen is that no one would play it and then they could shut it down after. I guess people would complain about it not getting enough attention or balance, but that should only matter if there were a lot of people doing the 'griefing' to begin with.
I'm sure you're entirely familiar with this response, especially if you hung around here for long enough, but the thing is, Depraved is kinda right.
For the most part, aggressive humans just kill anyone that they feel like if they think that it won't result in them starving to death or being murdered in their sleep/by an angry mob.
Even better if it PREVENTS them from starving to death or being murdered in their sleep/by an angry mob.
MMOs don't have either of those problems, so the aggressive players (the ones who think to attack in the first place) can just kill everyone. Even if they randomly fight someone stronger than them, they lose and come back to life and just don't fight that person again. If you 'just have the entire server put one person on a KOS list', then it's griefing and they can sometimes play the victim.
For many of them, as long as they're toward the top of the pile, this is enough. They are aggressive, they don't constantly lose from being aggressive, and the thing that stops their aggression isn't there, or they have an infinite amount of time to work out how to get around it.
Or they cry about it and quit, but you'll hardly meet the quitter ones.
Sure, not everyone is like this, but enough of humanity would be if they could get away with it, that it's likely. History teaches us that over and over. If your desire is to stop the most aggressive ones, the game has to do it. If you don't want a game where all we do is 'move the threshold so that the less aggressive ones don't attack except if they have a huge opportunity', I mean.
Aren't we all sinners?
It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.
How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.
And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.
Holy...
Well, I'll agree, and since I haven't thrown it out in a while, I'll give my answer to this.
The game tracks 'hate' on mobs, so there must be a value being calculated. It can be calculated for players.
Player A hits noncombatant Player B who is at 2000 HP and leaves them at 1600. Player B gets some damage reduction value based on this '400 points of hate'. Player A can continue to try to kill, ramping up Player B's damage reduction until the only things that can finish them are DoT, mobs, or huge abilities.
That number keeps going higher based on how low B's HP is, add multipliers for level difference, etc. So if they instead want for that same attack on B when they were fighting something and were at only 800 HP, leaving them at 400, then B's damage reduction is based on something more like '2400 points of hate'. CCs and debuffs also generate this even though damage isn't happening (but in Ashes you can't debuff noncombatants anyway)
Even if Player B decides to fight back, until they 'do enough damage to A to clear the hate', they keep the reduction (healing self also clears some though), but A immediately stops gaining more 'hate', so the damage reduction doesn't increase. This makes it MUCH harder for A to kill B in every situation where B doesn't fight back, but not necessarily impossible, nor is it insurmountable for multiple players to kill one.
The Damage Reduction applies only in the relationship between those two players, the way 'hate/aggro/threat meter' would between a player and a mob.
Result (in my overoptimistic mind) is a world where no one has to 'just not respond to a fight because they already started at the disadvantage', where the initial attacker doesn't have any benefit from 'wasting their big ability on a Noncombatant, and should just ping them to signal intent to fight.
Corruption kicks in some period of time AFTER the kill, by converting the remaining 'hate value'. And then just make it easier to clear. So players can just not think about it. Goal: fairer fights where players don't just give up or run away because their opponent snuck up on them mid PvE. Is this a good solution? Eh, it depends on what you like. Would it work? Dunno, haven't ever got to test it en masse. Do I expect to see it ever? Probably not.
Yeah, I think this is a bad idea. First of all, it pretty much eliminates 1v1 PvP, you may as well remove it. And this game is not a pure PvE game, nor is it designed to be played as one.
Secondly, when you start messing with people's damage numbers, and they start dropping for "arbitrary reasons" during combat, it simply feels bad. That's not fun gameplay. It looks like a tacked on bandaid.
I think the current solution is the best one. Let people PvP as much as they wish, and scale corruption punishment until it's in a balanced spot of "most ppl won't attack others due to repercussions".
It's really something. The Devs have said that they will never make a PvP always flagged server. It's almost like they're afraid to try one, because they know it would insta-fill, and then they'd have to accept they made a mistake.
And I guarantee you, if they made just 1 "Always flagged" server, they would need to open another 3-4 (at least short term) due to insane queue times.
For my clarity, which part of the 1v1 PvP is it eliminating, and are we counting 'your opponent has not fought back yet' as 'during combat' (in terms of your damage numbers changing and it feeling bad). I'm aware the suggestion allows the damage reduction to persist past 'the opponent flagging up in response, I'm just making sure I understand the perspective.
How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.
In regards to this funny thing is PvE groups of players all have the possibility to change but they play the victim card, PvE players generaly outnumber the pvp player by 10 to 1 atleast thats what u guys like to claim but instead of doing something like teaming up making a counter PK group u rather just complain that 1-2 people keep killing us and so on hopeing the devs will fix the issue for you when your numbers clearly let you if you choose to put in the effort.
PK guild set up in node nearby just destroy it so they go else where to set up shop but u dont
Some people, before entering there, might play MMOs too...
Sure, it eliminates the need to fight back. If you don't feel like having a 1v1 bout, and someone is attacking you, but in reality, their attacks are meaningless, it's as if they're not attacking you at all (or almost). It's basically an inferior flagging system. This means, that anyone who "chooses not to engage in 1v1 pvp" never has to fight back.
The point of the corruption system, the "green/purple/red" combat states, is to force people not wanting to fight to make a decision. Fight back, and lose less if you die, or let them kill you, but punish them with corruption. Many people will fight back, even though they don't want to fight in the first place.
Making it almost impossible to kill someone not fighting back is basically removing that question. The answer is always "don't fight back if I don't feel like it". It removes the danger of being attacked.
Thanks very much. Data noted.
But that's the thing, PvE players aren't interested in going out of their way to organize a group and go after the PKers. Why?
Well first of all, it's really hard to organize randoms for such a thing, especially if there's no real "reward" for them, and especially if you are going against organized PK groups, that base their whole identity on actually PKing others and making their lives harder.
Second, and most important: they're PvE players. They just don't want to PvP, so they're not going to go out of their way to participate in PvP.
I've already said, the whole "randoms grouping up take down the bully" thing just doesn't exist in most cases.
Btw, just don't put me into the "you guys" group, because I don't remember claiming that PvE players outnumber PvP players 10 to 1, or saying I'm a PvE only player.
So instead of activly doing something to prevent what they dont want happening they just complain and hope it goes away seems like an effective stratergy
PvP player socialise and mange to band together and organise randoms sooooo yeah take darkfall for example you could hundred of players organise temporarily to seige or defend agaist larger zergs sooo whats stopping pve players from organising, the mentality of the players.
I am curious what PvE players will do when they get challenging AI that acts just like a player would, will they complain or will they be fine with it cause its an NPC dispite the fight being the same as a PvP person
If the developer cannot provide fun, the player leaves.
Can we stop making these unrealistic hypotheticals?
But sure let me try to answer it, and remember, it's a hypothetical, not a real situation that anyone has experienced, ever.
What will they do? Well if it is an unbalanced NPC, that's way more powerful than the player, that's going to chase them around the map, and instantly attack them while they're just traveling around, or even worse, several of those NPCs at the same time ganking players that are just planting stuff on the farm, then I guess it's not great, and players would want it to be adjusted, or they would just not play the game.
But really, it would be totally different than a real player, because you know it's an NPC, and NPCs are somewhat predictable in their actions.
You seem to fail to understand that, while "the fight being the same", it just isn't the same when you are playing against a real person, and an NPC. You seem to be treating NPCs and players the same, which is the whole issue I'm talking about here. NPCs are programmed to do stuff, real players make conscious decisions to do or not do something.
Nobody's going to make a game with NPCs out there in the world that gank players randomly, cc-locking them and dunking on them with 2-3 abilities. World bosses are closest thing to it, and they have specific locations where they appear, sometimes even specific times, and are made for groups. They are predictable, so you can avoid them.
Arr i see so its only PvP games where you gonna get smart AI such as darkfall then where they actualy try and dodge you and sneak up/kite you, so PVE games gets braindead PvE mobs and PvP gamers get more engaging PvE content "shrugs" seems strange
That being said darkfall had primitive smart AI but it a hell of alot more engaging than what we have in basicly PvE game when ur not bugging a mob spawn out.
Players are quire predictable, especially when they have a stable behavior pattern. And PKing everyone they see is probably one of the most predictable behavior patterns in pvp games. You can bait such players in places, kill them in a group or at the very least always know that they won't run away if the victim asks for help right in front of them.
My guild and I have spent hours in L2 simply answering PKer calls from victims. And in majority of cases the PKer would still be in the same location looking for their next victim, so we'd kill him and give him a few minutes to try and return, so that we can kill him again.
Pvp players bands together because they realize they're stronger that way. It kinda baffles me that pve players resists to do this against other players, while they're completely fine with raiding against the same mob 20 times a day.
So yes, it is the difference in nature. And that difference seem to be similar to a difference between a predator and a herbivore
iccer gave good explanations why PvErs are unlikely to form groups to hunt down the PKs, I'll add two.
1. The player(s) that's been bugging you made you lose time doing what you wanted to do. Going hunting them would only make you lose even more time over them.
2. By going hunt them you are not only doing what they want (PvP) you're signaling them that if they persist they'll get what they want eventually, just need the right amount of aggressive poking. Hope you like having them coming back later for more of your time.
As for more challenging AI mobs... Would their aggro reset once killed or does it goes up a notch? Player aggro is weird man, mobs behaving like players would feel... unrealistic, at least for a game world trying to simulate a believable real one, even if in a fantasy or sci-fi context. I, for one, would love less passive mobs. But if a mob was to leave the players it was engaged against and beeline straight at me when I log in, that would be a big WTF hehe. Not that any player has done that to me.
oh it is human nature. you just dont know it because you live in 2023. i want to see you 10-20 thosuand years ago, when another tribe came to take your resources because they were starving. i want to see you trying to convince them that what they are doing is wrong.
also, not seeing that you are the one with the issue is human nature as well. you are trying to change everybody else to adapt to you. its like me being fat and telling girls they MUST feel attracted to me, otherwise they are wrong, instead of me losing weight.
just to clarify, when i said human nature i was referring to competing. yes, there will be a very small percentage of people who will go out of the way to make you miserable. you could say those people are evil. id like to see them as not competent enough to win vs people thir own level so they have to go and pvp lowbies. but you cant control them, you cant change them, best thing oyu can do is group up and fight back, or get better and fight back. whining in a forum wont fix that.
but it also depends on the game. if you are in an opt in area or event and you get killed by a higher level player, there isnt anything wrong with that. you are taking farm that the other player could take. its an opt in event. no one has to protect your feelings. everybody is just trying to win, not make you miserable.
also, let me clarify. pvpers dont get enjoyment from making pvers miserable, they get enjoyment from winning...not from the other person losing. on the other hand, pvers get their enjoyment from making pvpers miserable. who is the real psycopath here?
I cannot wait till a game with this kind of feature appears. And considering the responses from pve gamers on this forum - I'd expect all pvers to hate this game, while pvpers would finally get a pve game they can enjoy.