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Sociopathic/Psychopathic behavior in PvP focused MMOs

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Comments

  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing.

    True open world pvp has to allow for mindless PKing to some extent. But you can limit it, or slow it, or create an opportunity cost for it for the killer. That's the goal of Ashes' corruption system.

    But that's just the open world flagging system. If you are involved in a guild war or a node war in Ashes, it will feel much more like Archeage's faction warfare. And by the way, enemy faction players in Archeage kill you because they get points for killing you. It's been 10 years since I've played, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure when I played I got honor points for killing enemy players. Either way, putting that aside, players kill enemy players as a matter of course, points or not, that's just the way it goes.

    And of course AoC's open seas are going to be unrestricted pvp. So you may be "mindlessly" killed there too. So it's a mixed bag of open world pvp formats, everywhere from completely unrestricted to restricted by the corruption system.

    Open world pvp may not really be your thing. It seems like instanced battlegrounds might be more up your alley. As far as the pyschopathic and sociopathic stuff, it sounds like you are taking things that happen in pvp way too personally. Not denying that there's some dickheads out there. But mostly, in my experience, it's just people pvping, competing, talking a little trash, having fun, dunking on people, getting dunked on themselves. You either have the stomach for it or you don't. It's just a game.

    Yep, which is why I mentioned the corruption system, which could solve this issue, we just don't know it, until we get to play the game.


    In Archaege, you only get the honor points while the zone is in the War. I really avoid those areas, as it's filled with ppl with 5k gs, while I'm at ~3500. It's not like you can do anything, when they jump on you out of nowhere, and stun lock you, until you die (which is very fast). The issue is, they're also doing it in conflict areas, where they do not get anything for killing you.

    See, I see the Sea content as group content, so I'm fine with PvP there. In Archeage, I actually enjoy it, especially when in a group, just wandering around searching for red trade ships, or even just protecting our own. There's a purpose to it, mostly.
    Open world pvp may not really be your thing.

    I do enjoy OWPvP to some extent, when it has a purpose, and when it's a somewhat balanced setting. I dislike when it's 5 people jumping on one person, or when it's a high level/high gear character just murdering lower level/lower gear people, for no reason other than their own enjoyment of watching others lose and suffer.
    The reason I mentioned psychopathic and sociopathic stuff, is because those definitions perfectly describe a lot of players in PvP encounters in Archeage. I'm not using those words to try to insult them, but I find they're the best words to describe their behavior.



    Thank you for actually being one of the few people who are engaging in a conversation, rather than constantly throwing out random untrue assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth, like a lot of these posters are doing constantly, in every single thread that they disagree with.

    Based on this, the game you want is Throne and Liberty.

    I'm really not trying to discourage you as a whole from Ashes, that's the last thing I want for anyone, but we also have to face the reality that different games are made for different people and probably we should just be thankful that these two games are going in different directions.

    Sure, the overall owPvP is gone, but one of those things always comes with the other. The design required to make it so that people don't 'just gank the disadvantaged for fun' while at the same time not making it so no one ever engages, is gonna be complicated, no matter what game eventually does it.

    Games for people who enjoy the rush of 'being ganked' or 'being in danger of being ganked' need to exist too. It's 'a shame' that the game with the most other promised features is also the one that will have this, but you know what they say...

    "If ArcheAge is so good, why isn't there an ArcheAge 2?"

    Oh wait...

    The thing is, I find Archeage to be the best MMORPG I've played, even with the bs PvP system. It's extremely frustrating and annoying, but the overall game has so much to offer, that it would be silly not to play it just because of the PvP.
    I'm hoping Ashes will be similar.

    These systems would be fine, if players had any decency, and if they didn't immediately resort to PKing as soon as they spot someone, again, for no reason at all, other than to mess with other people.

    In Ashes, we will have corruption, that will hopefully discourage, or make it not worth it to flag up for no real reason, like trying to mess with people, and watch them lose, or whatever else.

    The sense of danger of being ganked does need to exist, I agree. It's one of the things that makes OW PvP games good.
    At the same time, people exploit that, and just assume they HAVE to gank everyone, and anyone, at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.
    I don't think it's the same when you ganked out of nowhere, just because you are going through a certain area, doing whatever, or doing nothing,
    vs
    When you are actually taking up a farm spot, mining/gathering, contesting for a WB, or something else. Then I do understand the need for ganking, and I have no issues with it really, and I'd gladly engage in PvP there.

    There a few system in place tbh to stop mindless pvp kills
    1 - Obvious corruption system there enough of a penalty associated with this to make peopel think twice about a kill and kiling people who have 0 shot at winning aka greatly lower level than u will punish you with more corruption point
    2 - The bag system if your harvesting tree for example a player may not kill you because there no reward for them simply cause there bags they currently have equipment might not hold a 1x3 size log or not enough to warrant the corruption hit, however if they were also logging trees then they might cause they be able to loot everything from you but the tetris system from resource loot can limit the PK actions since not everyone is a loot pinata since u cant carry there loot due to bag types
    3- there systems in place to allow for unpunished PvP to take place so people who want to pvp will usualy seek those avenue to get there PvP fix alot of the time. They be more likly to attack people/guild there either at war with or those at caravans rather than random players that happen to be going past at the time.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Depraved wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Taerrik wrote: »
    I think the issue with mega guilds, boils down not to how much easier than can just kill everyone.

    But when they kill people just because they can, because they think its funny, and they do it over and over for no benefit but some laughs (also known as griefing). Theres a wiki page on griefing but I dont know how enforced that will be if at all.

    i will say one thing about mega guild, there strength in numbers yes but there also weakness in it aswell. our guild of 20-30 or so dismantled the mega zerg guild on archage simply by wearing them down with hit and run tactics along with spies. We would hit all there members doing trade runs and disapear before the zerg portaled in we had 2 minutes tops basicly to kill loot and disperse to a different location to hit them again. we also had a spy which we would secretly take packs off there guild plot and drop them off the cliff to our trade ship to carry them off to hand in. The Guild leader ended up randomly kicking people he though was takignt he packs but never did get the spy lol More players = more vulnerabilities since they cant defend everyone at once.

    they thought they could just kill who they wanted but sometime u gotta watch who u bite cause they may just bite back with more determination.

    i dunno why but my guild i play with always seems to end up at war with a zerg in every game lol

    lmao thats so funny T_T dropping loot off the cliff hahaha.

    there guild house was ontop of a cliff so you could go to the edge and trop the tradepack on the ground and it clip to the land below it by the ocean since you placed the pack infront of you, were we just had a crew load up the packs onto the ship to go sell them :P I think they donated roughly 12k gold to our guild this way which was alot considering it was only like 2 months into the game lol
  • Depraved wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    I also dislike open-world PvP games that allow mindless PKing.

    True open world pvp has to allow for mindless PKing to some extent. But you can limit it, or slow it, or create an opportunity cost for it for the killer. That's the goal of Ashes' corruption system.

    But that's just the open world flagging system. If you are involved in a guild war or a node war in Ashes, it will feel much more like Archeage's faction warfare. And by the way, enemy faction players in Archeage kill you because they get points for killing you. It's been 10 years since I've played, correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure when I played I got honor points for killing enemy players. Either way, putting that aside, players kill enemy players as a matter of course, points or not, that's just the way it goes.

    And of course AoC's open seas are going to be unrestricted pvp. So you may be "mindlessly" killed there too. So it's a mixed bag of open world pvp formats, everywhere from completely unrestricted to restricted by the corruption system.

    Open world pvp may not really be your thing. It seems like instanced battlegrounds might be more up your alley. As far as the pyschopathic and sociopathic stuff, it sounds like you are taking things that happen in pvp way too personally. Not denying that there's some dickheads out there. But mostly, in my experience, it's just people pvping, competing, talking a little trash, having fun, dunking on people, getting dunked on themselves. You either have the stomach for it or you don't. It's just a game.

    Yep, which is why I mentioned the corruption system, which could solve this issue, we just don't know it, until we get to play the game.


    In Archaege, you only get the honor points while the zone is in the War. I really avoid those areas, as it's filled with ppl with 5k gs, while I'm at ~3500. It's not like you can do anything, when they jump on you out of nowhere, and stun lock you, until you die (which is very fast). The issue is, they're also doing it in conflict areas, where they do not get anything for killing you.

    See, I see the Sea content as group content, so I'm fine with PvP there. In Archeage, I actually enjoy it, especially when in a group, just wandering around searching for red trade ships, or even just protecting our own. There's a purpose to it, mostly.
    Open world pvp may not really be your thing.

    I do enjoy OWPvP to some extent, when it has a purpose, and when it's a somewhat balanced setting. I dislike when it's 5 people jumping on one person, or when it's a high level/high gear character just murdering lower level/lower gear people, for no reason other than their own enjoyment of watching others lose and suffer.
    The reason I mentioned psychopathic and sociopathic stuff, is because those definitions perfectly describe a lot of players in PvP encounters in Archeage. I'm not using those words to try to insult them, but I find they're the best words to describe their behavior.



    Thank you for actually being one of the few people who are engaging in a conversation, rather than constantly throwing out random untrue assumptions, and putting words in people's mouth, like a lot of these posters are doing constantly, in every single thread that they disagree with.

    Based on this, the game you want is Throne and Liberty.

    I'm really not trying to discourage you as a whole from Ashes, that's the last thing I want for anyone, but we also have to face the reality that different games are made for different people and probably we should just be thankful that these two games are going in different directions.

    Sure, the overall owPvP is gone, but one of those things always comes with the other. The design required to make it so that people don't 'just gank the disadvantaged for fun' while at the same time not making it so no one ever engages, is gonna be complicated, no matter what game eventually does it.

    Games for people who enjoy the rush of 'being ganked' or 'being in danger of being ganked' need to exist too. It's 'a shame' that the game with the most other promised features is also the one that will have this, but you know what they say...

    "If ArcheAge is so good, why isn't there an ArcheAge 2?"

    Oh wait...

    The thing is, I find Archeage to be the best MMORPG I've played, even with the bs PvP system. It's extremely frustrating and annoying, but the overall game has so much to offer, that it would be silly not to play it just because of the PvP.
    I'm hoping Ashes will be similar.

    These systems would be fine, if players had any decency, and if they didn't immediately resort to PKing as soon as they spot someone, again, for no reason at all, other than to mess with other people.

    In Ashes, we will have corruption, that will hopefully discourage, or make it not worth it to flag up for no real reason, like trying to mess with people, and watch them lose, or whatever else.

    The sense of danger of being ganked does need to exist, I agree. It's one of the things that makes OW PvP games good.
    At the same time, people exploit that, and just assume they HAVE to gank everyone, and anyone, at any time, for any reason, or for no reason.
    I don't think it's the same when you ganked out of nowhere, just because you are going through a certain area, doing whatever, or doing nothing,
    vs
    When you are actually taking up a farm spot, mining/gathering, contesting for a WB, or something else. Then I do understand the need for ganking, and I have no issues with it really, and I'd gladly engage in PvP there.

    you want to change player behaviour and human nature. basically, you want everyone else to change but you. or you want to change the game for you. ok how about this. this problem wouldnt exist if you toughened up.

    change yourself (using your logic). there, problem solved.

    Wait.
    So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
    Yeah just toughen up I guess.
    Azherae wrote: »

    Then I'll hope AA2 works out for you, but I kinda doubt it unless they're watching the data from everything else lately.

    I don't agree that people just assume they should gank because they are mentally divergent though.

    I firmly believe it's the game's design that causes this, for many reasons. The player who ganks is presented with a situation and a set of consequences where their options are usually 'be sure they will win' or 'don't attack'. So all the people who are willing to just gank 'everyone' are the ones who have learned that they 'can'.

    Even a different set of people who know they can beat everyone but don't care... the only way you'd find out how strong they are is if you attacked THEM.

    The real question that we are all ofc still asking ourselves until Alpha-2 is the one you put forward, in short, does Steven want a game where nearly no one goes for the gank, or a game where people can reasonably respond with violence first in every conflict (whether or not they finish it that way isn't relevant).

    That said, I was recommending TL because of my huge and unfounded speculations that it will work toward rivaling AA and Ashes in specific ways once it hits its stride, so might as well get in on it early, it might be good to be used to it rather than 'joining late because it finally adds enough content you think you'd like' but then the big guilds have everything locked down for those who aren't in them.

    You might be a person who joins guilds easily, but forgive me for assuming based on some stuff in your post, that you aren't.

    It's not the ganking itself, it's how they have no regard for others, and it's like they're playing a single player game filled with NPCs. They're obsessed with themselves, their own progress, that they'd gladly f*** people over if it meant they are going to progress. It's about the mentality, not just the act of ganking itself. I'm just assuming that the ganking is the result of that sort of mentality.

    And yeah, I also think it's the game design that's kind of encouraging this sort of behavior in many people.

    The real question that we are all ofc still asking ourselves until Alpha-2 is the one you put forward, in short, does Steven want a game where nearly no one goes for the gank, or a game where people can reasonably respond with violence first in every conflict (whether or not they finish it that way isn't relevant).

    Yes, and that remains to be seen, I'm just hoping it doesn't go to either of the 2 extremes, but leaning more into encouraging ganks only if there's a really good reason to do so.
    You might be a person who joins guilds easily, but forgive me for assuming based on some stuff in your post, that you aren't.

    It depends. In some games, I can't be bothered to join a guild, because the game usually doesn't require you to have one, and I'm probably not gonna play for long anyways.
    In Archeage, you really want to be in one. Everything is more fun when you find a normal group of non-toxic, non-sweaty/hardcore people. That's why I usually try to join smaller/medium sized guilds, that are PvX, and semi-hardcore/semi-casual, but also those that actually do content together. There's no pressure to always compete, there's no pressure to always play be available every day.
    So I wouldn't say I have a hard time joining a guild, it's just that I'm picky with what type of a guild I join.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    How can so many rough and tough PvPers be triggered so easily. :D

    its more the PvP players are just plain sick of PvE players coming into games that wasnt designed for them and then crying there PvP and getting it changed into a more PvE friendly game. New world for example is a recent example of this.
    And if you wanna trigger the fuck out of PvE players all u need to do is go to new world forums and ask if there a PvP server yet and they go on and on and on about we dont want a PvP server dispite it would not effect them at all cause they can just play on the server they already have :P

    That sounds lame, New World could probably get a heavier PvP server...

    But remember that Amazon changed New World supposedly because they saw just how ruthless the PKers were (and somehow couldn't come up with a better way to fix it than adding direct flagging).

    At least, that's their own claim.

    it was very much a PvP 3 faction game during beta but the PvE players cried so hard that they ended up doing a complete 360 and they spent the last 3 months before release removing all PvP from the gamne and trying to scrape together PvE content instead of bug fixing, if they kept with the PvP game and toned back the gank fest with level requirments or punihsments for kiling players with to larg eof a level gap then it probaly would of went better for them.
    i would go back to play new world tbh if they had a always on pvp server atleast till AoC
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    How can so many rough and tough PvPers be triggered so easily. :D

    its more the PvP players are just plain sick of PvE players coming into games that wasnt designed for them and then crying there PvP and getting it changed into a more PvE friendly game. New world for example is a recent example of this.
    And if you wanna trigger the fuck out of PvE players all u need to do is go to new world forums and ask if there a PvP server yet and they go on and on and on about we dont want a PvP server dispite it would not effect them at all cause they can just play on the server they already have :P

    That sounds lame, New World could probably get a heavier PvP server...

    But remember that Amazon changed New World supposedly because they saw just how ruthless the PKers were (and somehow couldn't come up with a better way to fix it than adding direct flagging).

    At least, that's their own claim.

    it was very much a PvP 3 faction game during beta but the PvE players cried so hard that they ended up doing a complete 360 and they spent the last 3 months before release removing all PvP from the gamne and trying to scrape together PvE content instead of bug fixing, if they kept with the PvP game and toned back the gank fest with level requirments or punihsments for kiling players with to larg eof a level gap then it probaly would of went better for them.
    i would go back to play new world tbh if they had a always on pvp server atleast till AoC

    I don't really know, I only know what they said (it didn't seem like the kind of game I needed to play in its current design, because I figured they were gonna change it).

    So I'm glad you had that experience, I'm just noting that Amazon's statement was talking about a less common experience. Specifically:

    One of the problems we observed with this system was that some high level players were killing low level players, A LOT. Sometimes exclusively. This often led to solo or group griefing scenarios that created a toxic environment for many players. To be clear, this behavior was not shown by all PvP players, but enough to cause significant issues.

    We set out to build a compelling world full of danger and opportunity that begs to be explored. The intended design was never to allow a small group of players to bully other players. Based on what we saw, we realized that we needed to make fundamental changes and not just incremental fixes, (which we tried several times during the Closed Alpha).


    I don't know why that last part is there. But they decided to go the 'fundamental changes' route, so we got what we have now. Maybe it wasn't possible to do it just by balancing because of the type of person that played New World. Maybe they didn't give it enough time to see all the effects properly.

    I just agree that I find it weird that they wouldn't give you back the original form of the game. The worst that would happen is that no one would play it and then they could shut it down after. I guess people would complain about it not getting enough attention or balance, but that should only matter if there were a lot of people doing the 'griefing' to begin with.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »
    you want to change player behaviour and human nature. basically, you want everyone else to change but you. or you want to change the game for you. ok how about this. this problem wouldnt exist if you toughened up.

    change yourself (using your logic). there, problem solved.

    Wait.
    So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
    Yeah just toughen up I guess.

    I'm sure you're entirely familiar with this response, especially if you hung around here for long enough, but the thing is, Depraved is kinda right.

    For the most part, aggressive humans just kill anyone that they feel like if they think that it won't result in them starving to death or being murdered in their sleep/by an angry mob.

    Even better if it PREVENTS them from starving to death or being murdered in their sleep/by an angry mob.

    MMOs don't have either of those problems, so the aggressive players (the ones who think to attack in the first place) can just kill everyone. Even if they randomly fight someone stronger than them, they lose and come back to life and just don't fight that person again. If you 'just have the entire server put one person on a KOS list', then it's griefing and they can sometimes play the victim.

    For many of them, as long as they're toward the top of the pile, this is enough. They are aggressive, they don't constantly lose from being aggressive, and the thing that stops their aggression isn't there, or they have an infinite amount of time to work out how to get around it.

    Or they cry about it and quit, but you'll hardly meet the quitter ones.

    Sure, not everyone is like this, but enough of humanity would be if they could get away with it, that it's likely. History teaches us that over and over. If your desire is to stop the most aggressive ones, the game has to do it. If you don't want a game where all we do is 'move the threshold so that the less aggressive ones don't attack except if they have a huge opportunity', I mean.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • iccer wrote: »
    Wait.
    So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
    Yeah just toughen up I guess.
    Are you an alien?
  • iccer wrote: »
    Wait.
    So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
    Yeah just toughen up I guess.

    how-do-we-tell-him-mr-krabs.gif
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • iccericcer Member
    edited October 2023
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.
  • iccer wrote: »
    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    Holy...
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    Well, I'll agree, and since I haven't thrown it out in a while, I'll give my answer to this.

    The game tracks 'hate' on mobs, so there must be a value being calculated. It can be calculated for players.

    Player A hits noncombatant Player B who is at 2000 HP and leaves them at 1600. Player B gets some damage reduction value based on this '400 points of hate'. Player A can continue to try to kill, ramping up Player B's damage reduction until the only things that can finish them are DoT, mobs, or huge abilities.

    That number keeps going higher based on how low B's HP is, add multipliers for level difference, etc. So if they instead want for that same attack on B when they were fighting something and were at only 800 HP, leaving them at 400, then B's damage reduction is based on something more like '2400 points of hate'. CCs and debuffs also generate this even though damage isn't happening (but in Ashes you can't debuff noncombatants anyway)

    Even if Player B decides to fight back, until they 'do enough damage to A to clear the hate', they keep the reduction (healing self also clears some though), but A immediately stops gaining more 'hate', so the damage reduction doesn't increase. This makes it MUCH harder for A to kill B in every situation where B doesn't fight back, but not necessarily impossible, nor is it insurmountable for multiple players to kill one.

    The Damage Reduction applies only in the relationship between those two players, the way 'hate/aggro/threat meter' would between a player and a mob.

    Result (in my overoptimistic mind) is a world where no one has to 'just not respond to a fight because they already started at the disadvantage', where the initial attacker doesn't have any benefit from 'wasting their big ability on a Noncombatant, and should just ping them to signal intent to fight.

    Corruption kicks in some period of time AFTER the kill, by converting the remaining 'hate value'. And then just make it easier to clear. So players can just not think about it. Goal: fairer fights where players don't just give up or run away because their opponent snuck up on them mid PvE. Is this a good solution? Eh, it depends on what you like. Would it work? Dunno, haven't ever got to test it en masse. Do I expect to see it ever? Probably not.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • GrappLrGrappLr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    Well, I'll agree, and since I haven't thrown it out in a while, I'll give my answer to this.

    The game tracks 'hate' on mobs, so there must be a value being calculated. It can be calculated for players.

    Player A hits noncombatant Player B who is at 2000 HP and leaves them at 1600. Player B gets some damage reduction value based on this '400 points of hate'. Player A can continue to try to kill, ramping up Player B's damage reduction until the only things that can finish them are DoT, mobs, or huge abilities.

    That number keeps going higher based on how low B's HP is, add multipliers for level difference, etc. So if they instead want for that same attack on B when they were fighting something and were at only 800 HP, leaving them at 400, then B's damage reduction is based on something more like '2400 points of hate'. CCs and debuffs also generate this even though damage isn't happening (but in Ashes you can't debuff noncombatants anyway)

    Even if Player B decides to fight back, until they 'do enough damage to A to clear the hate', they keep the reduction (healing self also clears some though), but A immediately stops gaining more 'hate', so the damage reduction doesn't increase. This makes it MUCH harder for A to kill B in every situation where B doesn't fight back, but not necessarily impossible, nor is it insurmountable for multiple players to kill one.

    The Damage Reduction applies only in the relationship between those two players, the way 'hate/aggro/threat meter' would between a player and a mob.

    Result (in my overoptimistic mind) is a world where no one has to 'just not respond to a fight because they already started at the disadvantage', where the initial attacker doesn't have any benefit from 'wasting their big ability on a Noncombatant, and should just ping them to signal intent to fight.

    Corruption kicks in some period of time AFTER the kill, by converting the remaining 'hate value'. And then just make it easier to clear. So players can just not think about it. Goal: fairer fights where players don't just give up or run away because their opponent snuck up on them mid PvE. Is this a good solution? Eh, it depends on what you like. Would it work? Dunno, haven't ever got to test it en masse. Do I expect to see it ever? Probably not.

    Yeah, I think this is a bad idea. First of all, it pretty much eliminates 1v1 PvP, you may as well remove it. And this game is not a pure PvE game, nor is it designed to be played as one.

    Secondly, when you start messing with people's damage numbers, and they start dropping for "arbitrary reasons" during combat, it simply feels bad. That's not fun gameplay. It looks like a tacked on bandaid.

    I think the current solution is the best one. Let people PvP as much as they wish, and scale corruption punishment until it's in a balanced spot of "most ppl won't attack others due to repercussions".
  • GrappLrGrappLr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Percimes wrote: »
    How can so many rough and tough PvPers be triggered so easily. :D

    its more the PvP players are just plain sick of PvE players coming into games that wasnt designed for them and then crying there PvP and getting it changed into a more PvE friendly game. New world for example is a recent example of this.
    And if you wanna trigger the fuck out of PvE players all u need to do is go to new world forums and ask if there a PvP server yet and they go on and on and on about we dont want a PvP server dispite it would not effect them at all cause they can just play on the server they already have :P

    That sounds lame, New World could probably get a heavier PvP server...

    But remember that Amazon changed New World supposedly because they saw just how ruthless the PKers were (and somehow couldn't come up with a better way to fix it than adding direct flagging).

    At least, that's their own claim.

    it was very much a PvP 3 faction game during beta but the PvE players cried so hard that they ended up doing a complete 360 and they spent the last 3 months before release removing all PvP from the gamne and trying to scrape together PvE content instead of bug fixing, if they kept with the PvP game and toned back the gank fest with level requirments or punihsments for kiling players with to larg eof a level gap then it probaly would of went better for them.
    i would go back to play new world tbh if they had a always on pvp server atleast till AoC

    It's really something. The Devs have said that they will never make a PvP always flagged server. It's almost like they're afraid to try one, because they know it would insta-fill, and then they'd have to accept they made a mistake.

    And I guarantee you, if they made just 1 "Always flagged" server, they would need to open another 3-4 (at least short term) due to insane queue times.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    GrappLr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    Well, I'll agree, and since I haven't thrown it out in a while, I'll give my answer to this.

    The game tracks 'hate' on mobs, so there must be a value being calculated. It can be calculated for players.

    Player A hits noncombatant Player B who is at 2000 HP and leaves them at 1600. Player B gets some damage reduction value based on this '400 points of hate'. Player A can continue to try to kill, ramping up Player B's damage reduction until the only things that can finish them are DoT, mobs, or huge abilities.

    That number keeps going higher based on how low B's HP is, add multipliers for level difference, etc. So if they instead want for that same attack on B when they were fighting something and were at only 800 HP, leaving them at 400, then B's damage reduction is based on something more like '2400 points of hate'. CCs and debuffs also generate this even though damage isn't happening (but in Ashes you can't debuff noncombatants anyway)

    Even if Player B decides to fight back, until they 'do enough damage to A to clear the hate', they keep the reduction (healing self also clears some though), but A immediately stops gaining more 'hate', so the damage reduction doesn't increase. This makes it MUCH harder for A to kill B in every situation where B doesn't fight back, but not necessarily impossible, nor is it insurmountable for multiple players to kill one.

    The Damage Reduction applies only in the relationship between those two players, the way 'hate/aggro/threat meter' would between a player and a mob.

    Result (in my overoptimistic mind) is a world where no one has to 'just not respond to a fight because they already started at the disadvantage', where the initial attacker doesn't have any benefit from 'wasting their big ability on a Noncombatant, and should just ping them to signal intent to fight.

    Corruption kicks in some period of time AFTER the kill, by converting the remaining 'hate value'. And then just make it easier to clear. So players can just not think about it. Goal: fairer fights where players don't just give up or run away because their opponent snuck up on them mid PvE. Is this a good solution? Eh, it depends on what you like. Would it work? Dunno, haven't ever got to test it en masse. Do I expect to see it ever? Probably not.

    Yeah, I think this is a bad idea. First of all, it pretty much eliminates 1v1 PvP, you may as well remove it. And this game is not a pure PvE game, nor is it designed to be played as one.

    Secondly, when you start messing with people's damage numbers, and they start dropping for "arbitrary reasons" during combat, it simply feels bad. That's not fun gameplay. It looks like a tacked on bandaid.

    I think the current solution is the best one. Let people PvP as much as they wish, and scale corruption punishment until it's in a balanced spot of "most ppl won't attack others due to repercussions".

    For my clarity, which part of the 1v1 PvP is it eliminating, and are we counting 'your opponent has not fought back yet' as 'during combat' (in terms of your damage numbers changing and it feeling bad). I'm aware the suggestion allows the damage reduction to persist past 'the opponent flagging up in response, I'm just making sure I understand the perspective.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    In regards to this funny thing is PvE groups of players all have the possibility to change but they play the victim card, PvE players generaly outnumber the pvp player by 10 to 1 atleast thats what u guys like to claim but instead of doing something like teaming up making a counter PK group u rather just complain that 1-2 people keep killing us and so on hopeing the devs will fix the issue for you when your numbers clearly let you if you choose to put in the effort.
    PK guild set up in node nearby just destroy it so they go else where to set up shop but u dont
  • iccer wrote: »
    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.
    In real life there are prisons.
    Some people, before entering there, might play MMOs too...
  • GrappLrGrappLr Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    GrappLr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    Well, I'll agree, and since I haven't thrown it out in a while, I'll give my answer to this.

    The game tracks 'hate' on mobs, so there must be a value being calculated. It can be calculated for players.

    Player A hits noncombatant Player B who is at 2000 HP and leaves them at 1600. Player B gets some damage reduction value based on this '400 points of hate'. Player A can continue to try to kill, ramping up Player B's damage reduction until the only things that can finish them are DoT, mobs, or huge abilities.

    That number keeps going higher based on how low B's HP is, add multipliers for level difference, etc. So if they instead want for that same attack on B when they were fighting something and were at only 800 HP, leaving them at 400, then B's damage reduction is based on something more like '2400 points of hate'. CCs and debuffs also generate this even though damage isn't happening (but in Ashes you can't debuff noncombatants anyway)

    Even if Player B decides to fight back, until they 'do enough damage to A to clear the hate', they keep the reduction (healing self also clears some though), but A immediately stops gaining more 'hate', so the damage reduction doesn't increase. This makes it MUCH harder for A to kill B in every situation where B doesn't fight back, but not necessarily impossible, nor is it insurmountable for multiple players to kill one.

    The Damage Reduction applies only in the relationship between those two players, the way 'hate/aggro/threat meter' would between a player and a mob.

    Result (in my overoptimistic mind) is a world where no one has to 'just not respond to a fight because they already started at the disadvantage', where the initial attacker doesn't have any benefit from 'wasting their big ability on a Noncombatant, and should just ping them to signal intent to fight.

    Corruption kicks in some period of time AFTER the kill, by converting the remaining 'hate value'. And then just make it easier to clear. So players can just not think about it. Goal: fairer fights where players don't just give up or run away because their opponent snuck up on them mid PvE. Is this a good solution? Eh, it depends on what you like. Would it work? Dunno, haven't ever got to test it en masse. Do I expect to see it ever? Probably not.

    Yeah, I think this is a bad idea. First of all, it pretty much eliminates 1v1 PvP, you may as well remove it. And this game is not a pure PvE game, nor is it designed to be played as one.

    Secondly, when you start messing with people's damage numbers, and they start dropping for "arbitrary reasons" during combat, it simply feels bad. That's not fun gameplay. It looks like a tacked on bandaid.

    I think the current solution is the best one. Let people PvP as much as they wish, and scale corruption punishment until it's in a balanced spot of "most ppl won't attack others due to repercussions".

    For my clarity, which part of the 1v1 PvP is it eliminating, and are we counting 'your opponent has not fought back yet' as 'during combat' (in terms of your damage numbers changing and it feeling bad). I'm aware the suggestion allows the damage reduction to persist past 'the opponent flagging up in response, I'm just making sure I understand the perspective.

    Sure, it eliminates the need to fight back. If you don't feel like having a 1v1 bout, and someone is attacking you, but in reality, their attacks are meaningless, it's as if they're not attacking you at all (or almost). It's basically an inferior flagging system. This means, that anyone who "chooses not to engage in 1v1 pvp" never has to fight back.

    The point of the corruption system, the "green/purple/red" combat states, is to force people not wanting to fight to make a decision. Fight back, and lose less if you die, or let them kill you, but punish them with corruption. Many people will fight back, even though they don't want to fight in the first place.

    Making it almost impossible to kill someone not fighting back is basically removing that question. The answer is always "don't fight back if I don't feel like it". It removes the danger of being attacked.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    GrappLr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    GrappLr wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    Well, I'll agree, and since I haven't thrown it out in a while, I'll give my answer to this.

    The game tracks 'hate' on mobs, so there must be a value being calculated. It can be calculated for players.

    Player A hits noncombatant Player B who is at 2000 HP and leaves them at 1600. Player B gets some damage reduction value based on this '400 points of hate'. Player A can continue to try to kill, ramping up Player B's damage reduction until the only things that can finish them are DoT, mobs, or huge abilities.

    That number keeps going higher based on how low B's HP is, add multipliers for level difference, etc. So if they instead want for that same attack on B when they were fighting something and were at only 800 HP, leaving them at 400, then B's damage reduction is based on something more like '2400 points of hate'. CCs and debuffs also generate this even though damage isn't happening (but in Ashes you can't debuff noncombatants anyway)

    Even if Player B decides to fight back, until they 'do enough damage to A to clear the hate', they keep the reduction (healing self also clears some though), but A immediately stops gaining more 'hate', so the damage reduction doesn't increase. This makes it MUCH harder for A to kill B in every situation where B doesn't fight back, but not necessarily impossible, nor is it insurmountable for multiple players to kill one.

    The Damage Reduction applies only in the relationship between those two players, the way 'hate/aggro/threat meter' would between a player and a mob.

    Result (in my overoptimistic mind) is a world where no one has to 'just not respond to a fight because they already started at the disadvantage', where the initial attacker doesn't have any benefit from 'wasting their big ability on a Noncombatant, and should just ping them to signal intent to fight.

    Corruption kicks in some period of time AFTER the kill, by converting the remaining 'hate value'. And then just make it easier to clear. So players can just not think about it. Goal: fairer fights where players don't just give up or run away because their opponent snuck up on them mid PvE. Is this a good solution? Eh, it depends on what you like. Would it work? Dunno, haven't ever got to test it en masse. Do I expect to see it ever? Probably not.

    Yeah, I think this is a bad idea. First of all, it pretty much eliminates 1v1 PvP, you may as well remove it. And this game is not a pure PvE game, nor is it designed to be played as one.

    Secondly, when you start messing with people's damage numbers, and they start dropping for "arbitrary reasons" during combat, it simply feels bad. That's not fun gameplay. It looks like a tacked on bandaid.

    I think the current solution is the best one. Let people PvP as much as they wish, and scale corruption punishment until it's in a balanced spot of "most ppl won't attack others due to repercussions".

    For my clarity, which part of the 1v1 PvP is it eliminating, and are we counting 'your opponent has not fought back yet' as 'during combat' (in terms of your damage numbers changing and it feeling bad). I'm aware the suggestion allows the damage reduction to persist past 'the opponent flagging up in response, I'm just making sure I understand the perspective.

    Sure, it eliminates the need to fight back. If you don't feel like having a 1v1 bout, and someone is attacking you, but in reality, their attacks are meaningless, it's as if they're not attacking you at all (or almost). It's basically an inferior flagging system. This means, that anyone who "chooses not to engage in 1v1 pvp" never has to fight back.

    The point of the corruption system, the "green/purple/red" combat states, is to force people not wanting to fight to make a decision. Fight back, and lose less if you die, or let them kill you, but punish them with corruption. Many people will fight back, even though they don't want to fight in the first place.

    Making it almost impossible to kill someone not fighting back is basically removing that question. The answer is always "don't fight back if I don't feel like it". It removes the danger of being attacked.

    Thanks very much. Data noted.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • iccericcer Member
    edited October 2023
    Veeshan wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    In regards to this funny thing is PvE groups of players all have the possibility to change but they play the victim card, PvE players generaly outnumber the pvp player by 10 to 1 atleast thats what u guys like to claim but instead of doing something like teaming up making a counter PK group u rather just complain that 1-2 people keep killing us and so on hopeing the devs will fix the issue for you when your numbers clearly let you if you choose to put in the effort.
    PK guild set up in node nearby just destroy it so they go else where to set up shop but u dont

    But that's the thing, PvE players aren't interested in going out of their way to organize a group and go after the PKers. Why?
    Well first of all, it's really hard to organize randoms for such a thing, especially if there's no real "reward" for them, and especially if you are going against organized PK groups, that base their whole identity on actually PKing others and making their lives harder.
    Second, and most important: they're PvE players. They just don't want to PvP, so they're not going to go out of their way to participate in PvP.
    I've already said, the whole "randoms grouping up take down the bully" thing just doesn't exist in most cases.

    Btw, just don't put me into the "you guys" group, because I don't remember claiming that PvE players outnumber PvP players 10 to 1, or saying I'm a PvE only player.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    In regards to this funny thing is PvE groups of players all have the possibility to change but they play the victim card, PvE players generaly outnumber the pvp player by 10 to 1 atleast thats what u guys like to claim but instead of doing something like teaming up making a counter PK group u rather just complain that 1-2 people keep killing us and so on hopeing the devs will fix the issue for you when your numbers clearly let you if you choose to put in the effort.
    PK guild set up in node nearby just destroy it so they go else where to set up shop but u dont

    But that's the thing, PvE players aren't interested in going out of their way to organize a group and go after the PKers. Why?
    Well first of all, it's really hard to organize randoms for such a thing, especially if there's no real "reward" for them, and especially if you are going against organized PK groups, that base their whole identity on actually PKing others and making their lives harder.
    Second, and most important: they're PvE players. They just don't want to PvP, so they're not going to go out of their way to participate in PvP.
    I've already said, the whole "randoms grouping up take down the bully" thing just doesn't exist in most cases.

    Btw, just don't put me into the "you guys" group, because I don't remember claiming that PvE players outnumber PvP players 10 to 1, or saying I'm a PvE only player.

    So instead of activly doing something to prevent what they dont want happening they just complain and hope it goes away seems like an effective stratergy :p
    PvP player socialise and mange to band together and organise randoms sooooo yeah take darkfall for example you could hundred of players organise temporarily to seige or defend agaist larger zergs sooo whats stopping pve players from organising, the mentality of the players.

    I am curious what PvE players will do when they get challenging AI that acts just like a player would, will they complain or will they be fine with it cause its an NPC dispite the fight being the same as a PvP person :p
  • Veeshan wrote: »
    I am curious what PvE players will do when they get challenging AI that acts just like a player would, will they complain or will they be fine with it cause its an NPC dispite the fight being the same as a PvP person :p
    The game must be fun.
    If the developer cannot provide fun, the player leaves.
  • iccericcer Member
    edited October 2023
    Veeshan wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    In regards to this funny thing is PvE groups of players all have the possibility to change but they play the victim card, PvE players generaly outnumber the pvp player by 10 to 1 atleast thats what u guys like to claim but instead of doing something like teaming up making a counter PK group u rather just complain that 1-2 people keep killing us and so on hopeing the devs will fix the issue for you when your numbers clearly let you if you choose to put in the effort.
    PK guild set up in node nearby just destroy it so they go else where to set up shop but u dont

    But that's the thing, PvE players aren't interested in going out of their way to organize a group and go after the PKers. Why?
    Well first of all, it's really hard to organize randoms for such a thing, especially if there's no real "reward" for them, and especially if you are going against organized PK groups, that base their whole identity on actually PKing others and making their lives harder.
    Second, and most important: they're PvE players. They just don't want to PvP, so they're not going to go out of their way to participate in PvP.
    I've already said, the whole "randoms grouping up take down the bully" thing just doesn't exist in most cases.

    Btw, just don't put me into the "you guys" group, because I don't remember claiming that PvE players outnumber PvP players 10 to 1, or saying I'm a PvE only player.

    So instead of activly doing something to prevent what they dont want happening they just complain and hope it goes away seems like an effective stratergy :p
    PvP player socialise and mange to band together and organise randoms sooooo yeah take darkfall for example you could hundred of players organise temporarily to seige or defend agaist larger zergs sooo whats stopping pve players from organising, the mentality of the players.

    I am curious what PvE players will do when they get challenging AI that acts just like a player would, will they complain or will they be fine with it cause its an NPC dispite the fight being the same as a PvP person :p

    Can we stop making these unrealistic hypotheticals?

    But sure let me try to answer it, and remember, it's a hypothetical, not a real situation that anyone has experienced, ever.

    What will they do? Well if it is an unbalanced NPC, that's way more powerful than the player, that's going to chase them around the map, and instantly attack them while they're just traveling around, or even worse, several of those NPCs at the same time ganking players that are just planting stuff on the farm, then I guess it's not great, and players would want it to be adjusted, or they would just not play the game.
    But really, it would be totally different than a real player, because you know it's an NPC, and NPCs are somewhat predictable in their actions.
    You seem to fail to understand that, while "the fight being the same", it just isn't the same when you are playing against a real person, and an NPC. You seem to be treating NPCs and players the same, which is the whole issue I'm talking about here. NPCs are programmed to do stuff, real players make conscious decisions to do or not do something.

    Nobody's going to make a game with NPCs out there in the world that gank players randomly, cc-locking them and dunking on them with 2-3 abilities. World bosses are closest thing to it, and they have specific locations where they appear, sometimes even specific times, and are made for groups. They are predictable, so you can avoid them.
  • This content has been removed.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited October 2023
    iccer wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    In regards to this funny thing is PvE groups of players all have the possibility to change but they play the victim card, PvE players generaly outnumber the pvp player by 10 to 1 atleast thats what u guys like to claim but instead of doing something like teaming up making a counter PK group u rather just complain that 1-2 people keep killing us and so on hopeing the devs will fix the issue for you when your numbers clearly let you if you choose to put in the effort.
    PK guild set up in node nearby just destroy it so they go else where to set up shop but u dont

    But that's the thing, PvE players aren't interested in going out of their way to organize a group and go after the PKers. Why?
    Well first of all, it's really hard to organize randoms for such a thing, especially if there's no real "reward" for them, and especially if you are going against organized PK groups, that base their whole identity on actually PKing others and making their lives harder.
    Second, and most important: they're PvE players. They just don't want to PvP, so they're not going to go out of their way to participate in PvP.
    I've already said, the whole "randoms grouping up take down the bully" thing just doesn't exist in most cases.

    Btw, just don't put me into the "you guys" group, because I don't remember claiming that PvE players outnumber PvP players 10 to 1, or saying I'm a PvE only player.

    So instead of activly doing something to prevent what they dont want happening they just complain and hope it goes away seems like an effective stratergy :p
    PvP player socialise and mange to band together and organise randoms sooooo yeah take darkfall for example you could hundred of players organise temporarily to seige or defend agaist larger zergs sooo whats stopping pve players from organising, the mentality of the players.

    I am curious what PvE players will do when they get challenging AI that acts just like a player would, will they complain or will they be fine with it cause its an NPC dispite the fight being the same as a PvP person :p

    Can we stop making these unrealistic hypotheticals?

    But sure let me try to answer it, and remember, it's a hypothetical, not a real situation that anyone has experienced, ever.

    What will they do? Well if it is an unbalanced NPC, that's way more powerful than the player, that's going to chase them around the map, and instantly attack them while they're just traveling around, or even worse, several of those NPCs at the same time ganking players that are just planting stuff on the farm, then I guess it's not great, and players would want it to be adjusted, or they would just not play the game.
    But really, it would be totally different than a real player, because you know it's an NPC, and NPCs are somewhat predictable in their actions.
    You seem to fail to understand that, while "the fight being the same", it just isn't the same when you are playing against a real person, and an NPC. You seem to be treating NPCs and players the same, which is the whole issue I'm talking about here. NPCs are programmed to do stuff, real players make conscious decisions to do or not do something.

    Nobody's going to make a game with NPCs out there in the world that gank players randomly, cc-locking them and dunking on them with 2-3 abilities. World bosses are closest thing to it, and they have specific locations where they appear, sometimes even specific times, and are made for groups. They are predictable, so you can avoid them.
    iccer wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Veeshan wrote: »
    iccer wrote: »
    Yeah, I guess humans really are doomed in that case.

    It's different when you are put in a dangerous place, when it's about survival vs when it's just about fun.
    I seriously doubt there are many mentally stable people, who would go out to kill others just for fun, but then again, seeing that those people do exist, I'm not even sure anymore.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    And please do not come in with the "it's a game, not real life bs", because this game is trying really hard to mimic real life, with all the conflict, politics, etc. that's going to be present in the game.

    How about instead of saying "it is what it is", we actually do something about it? And here I'm mainly talking about PvP in MMOs, if it really is the human nature, then put in at least some restrictions or laws if you will, to prevent such behavior.

    In regards to this funny thing is PvE groups of players all have the possibility to change but they play the victim card, PvE players generaly outnumber the pvp player by 10 to 1 atleast thats what u guys like to claim but instead of doing something like teaming up making a counter PK group u rather just complain that 1-2 people keep killing us and so on hopeing the devs will fix the issue for you when your numbers clearly let you if you choose to put in the effort.
    PK guild set up in node nearby just destroy it so they go else where to set up shop but u dont

    But that's the thing, PvE players aren't interested in going out of their way to organize a group and go after the PKers. Why?
    Well first of all, it's really hard to organize randoms for such a thing, especially if there's no real "reward" for them, and especially if you are going against organized PK groups, that base their whole identity on actually PKing others and making their lives harder.
    Second, and most important: they're PvE players. They just don't want to PvP, so they're not going to go out of their way to participate in PvP.
    I've already said, the whole "randoms grouping up take down the bully" thing just doesn't exist in most cases.

    Btw, just don't put me into the "you guys" group, because I don't remember claiming that PvE players outnumber PvP players 10 to 1, or saying I'm a PvE only player.

    So instead of activly doing something to prevent what they dont want happening they just complain and hope it goes away seems like an effective stratergy :p
    PvP player socialise and mange to band together and organise randoms sooooo yeah take darkfall for example you could hundred of players organise temporarily to seige or defend agaist larger zergs sooo whats stopping pve players from organising, the mentality of the players.

    I am curious what PvE players will do when they get challenging AI that acts just like a player would, will they complain or will they be fine with it cause its an NPC dispite the fight being the same as a PvP person :p

    Can we stop making these unrealistic hypotheticals?

    But sure let me try to answer it, and remember, it's a hypothetical, not a real situation that anyone has experienced, ever.

    What will they do? Well if it is an unbalanced NPC, that's way more powerful than the player, that's going to chase them around the map, and instantly attack them while they're just traveling around, or even worse, several of those NPCs at the same time ganking players that are just planting stuff on the farm, then I guess it's not great, and players would want it to be adjusted, or they would just not play the game.
    But really, it would be totally different than a real player, because you know it's an NPC, and NPCs are somewhat predictable in their actions.
    You seem to fail to understand that, while "the fight being the same", it just isn't the same when you are playing against a real person, and an NPC. You seem to be treating NPCs and players the same, which is the whole issue I'm talking about here. NPCs are programmed to do stuff, real players make conscious decisions to do or not do something.

    Nobody's going to make a game with NPCs out there in the world that gank players randomly, cc-locking them and dunking on them with 2-3 abilities. World bosses are closest thing to it, and they have specific locations where they appear, sometimes even specific times, and are made for groups. They are predictable, so you can avoid them.

    Arr i see so its only PvP games where you gonna get smart AI such as darkfall then where they actualy try and dodge you and sneak up/kite you, so PVE games gets braindead PvE mobs and PvP gamers get more engaging PvE content "shrugs" seems strange
    That being said darkfall had primitive smart AI but it a hell of alot more engaging than what we have in basicly PvE game when ur not bugging a mob spawn out.
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    But really, it would be totally different than a real player, because you know it's an NPC, and NPCs are somewhat predictable in their actions.
    And when you're talking about PK groups or just uber PKers who shoot anyone on sight - is that not predictable? Or are you generalizing PKers in the same way we're generalizing pvers?

    Players are quire predictable, especially when they have a stable behavior pattern. And PKing everyone they see is probably one of the most predictable behavior patterns in pvp games. You can bait such players in places, kill them in a group or at the very least always know that they won't run away if the victim asks for help right in front of them.

    My guild and I have spent hours in L2 simply answering PKer calls from victims. And in majority of cases the PKer would still be in the same location looking for their next victim, so we'd kill him and give him a few minutes to try and return, so that we can kill him again.

    Pvp players bands together because they realize they're stronger that way. It kinda baffles me that pve players resists to do this against other players, while they're completely fine with raiding against the same mob 20 times a day.

    So yes, it is the difference in nature. And that difference seem to be similar to a difference between a predator and a herbivore :)
  • Amusing thread. You made me smile. See you on the murderfield (your favourite farmspot).
  • Veeshan wrote: »
    So instead of activly doing something to prevent what they dont want happening they just complain and hope it goes away seems like an effective stratergy :p
    PvP player socialise and mange to band together and organise randoms sooooo yeah take darkfall for example you could hundred of players organise temporarily to seige or defend agaist larger zergs sooo whats stopping pve players from organising, the mentality of the players.

    I am curious what PvE players will do when they get challenging AI that acts just like a player would, will they complain or will they be fine with it cause its an NPC dispite the fight being the same as a PvP person :p

    iccer gave good explanations why PvErs are unlikely to form groups to hunt down the PKs, I'll add two.
    1. The player(s) that's been bugging you made you lose time doing what you wanted to do. Going hunting them would only make you lose even more time over them.
    2. By going hunt them you are not only doing what they want (PvP) you're signaling them that if they persist they'll get what they want eventually, just need the right amount of aggressive poking. Hope you like having them coming back later for more of your time.

    As for more challenging AI mobs... Would their aggro reset once killed or does it goes up a notch? Player aggro is weird man, mobs behaving like players would feel... unrealistic, at least for a game world trying to simulate a believable real one, even if in a fantasy or sci-fi context. I, for one, would love less passive mobs. But if a mob was to leave the players it was engaged against and beeline straight at me when I log in, that would be a big WTF hehe. Not that any player has done that to me.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • DepravedDepraved Member, Alpha Two
    iccer wrote: »
    Depraved wrote: »

    you want to change player behaviour and human nature. basically, you want everyone else to change but you. or you want to change the game for you. ok how about this. this problem wouldnt exist if you toughened up.

    change yourself (using your logic). there, problem solved.

    Wait.
    So you think this is human nature? You think it's human nature to just go out and make other people's experience miserable? You think people would just go out murdering each other in the real world, if there were no laws?
    Yeah just toughen up I guess.

    oh it is human nature. you just dont know it because you live in 2023. i want to see you 10-20 thosuand years ago, when another tribe came to take your resources because they were starving. i want to see you trying to convince them that what they are doing is wrong.

    also, not seeing that you are the one with the issue is human nature as well. you are trying to change everybody else to adapt to you. its like me being fat and telling girls they MUST feel attracted to me, otherwise they are wrong, instead of me losing weight.

    just to clarify, when i said human nature i was referring to competing. yes, there will be a very small percentage of people who will go out of the way to make you miserable. you could say those people are evil. id like to see them as not competent enough to win vs people thir own level so they have to go and pvp lowbies. but you cant control them, you cant change them, best thing oyu can do is group up and fight back, or get better and fight back. whining in a forum wont fix that.

    but it also depends on the game. if you are in an opt in area or event and you get killed by a higher level player, there isnt anything wrong with that. you are taking farm that the other player could take. its an opt in event. no one has to protect your feelings. everybody is just trying to win, not make you miserable.

    also, let me clarify. pvpers dont get enjoyment from making pvers miserable, they get enjoyment from winning...not from the other person losing. on the other hand, pvers get their enjoyment from making pvpers miserable. who is the real psycopath here?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    Percimes wrote: »
    As for more challenging AI mobs... Would their aggro reset once killed or does it goes up a notch? Player aggro is weird man, mobs behaving like players would feel... unrealistic, at least for a game world trying to simulate a believable real one, even if in a fantasy or sci-fi context. I, for one, would love less passive mobs. But if a mob was to leave the players it was engaged against and beeline straight at me when I log in, that would be a big WTF hehe. Not that any player has done that to me.
    In a supposed magic world where the npc's "consciousness" remains the same through respawns (just as a player's does) - I'd expect those mobs to become more aggro towards the players who killed them previously.

    I cannot wait till a game with this kind of feature appears. And considering the responses from pve gamers on this forum - I'd expect all pvers to hate this game, while pvpers would finally get a pve game they can enjoy.
  • Raven016Raven016 Member
    edited October 2023
    NiKr wrote: »
    My guild and I have spent hours in L2 simply answering PKer calls from victims. And in majority of cases the PKer would still be in the same location looking for their next victim, so we'd kill him and give him a few minutes to try and return, so that we can kill him again.
    You are so evil :cry:
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