Bard concept

BlankReg

I think of Bard as playing like an agility character similar to a rogue, a mesmer, a metal musician and court jester.

A metal inspiration with Bard is an opportunity because metal and high fantasy go together. It can be implemented in a way to fit the aesthetic of high fantasy.

A problem with a buff machine is how to make them a good 1v1 player and not a buff machine. If you think of them using words as weapons then it's easy to imagine them stunning, mesmerizing, mind controlling with their voice.

A court jester would probably be good with things like poison darts and nimble. Great hearing, like eavesdropping in the roleplay sense, could give them extra range on some abilities. I think of the Bard as political agents sometimes.

I might be way off base but I just wanted to share how I think Bard could be fun. I think that it's important they have some kind of viability in a 1v1 situation whether it means superior nimble abilities, stuns through "shouts" or mind control with song. Poison darts maybe or some dot creating instrument coupled with a kiting ability.

Max_Fury

I do think that bards could be associated with music, altho idk how metal could (or if it even should) fit this particular world, and I do listen to metal and only metal for the last 20 years.

In any case, bards are supposed to be singers and story tellers as a base, associated with rogues or assassins more often than not. Maybe cuz they had easier access to people of all kinds? Idk I'm just assuming here but, as far as I've read in books and seen in games and movies/series, bards did have their way with words and music. Some ended up respected, some feared, some in courts of Kings etc etc. They seem to me like people with lots of information. I doubt they will be a pure buffing machine. I don't think this game will have such a thing. But since we're told that Ashes will focus on the larger scale of things, I dunno how effective a buffer class will be in 1v1. That doesn't mean he won't be fun though. I imagine Buffs dbuffs cc and some dmg will come out of them. I think dmg is not the focus though.

All in all I like your ideas. To me bards fit the rogue-like agility category like the ones u set as an example.

George_Black

For those of you that come from countries with rich history, part of them is revolution and part of them are resistance songs.

When people think of bards, straight away their mind goes to some good looking clown like Dandelion with an instrument that doesnt shut up about love/adventure

I want to see a bard with the style of a revolutionary hero, that can inspire party members to take up arms and fight.
Dont know how it could play out but it's just a new image that I want to throw Bards' way.

Kilion

Balancing
One point to keep in mind is that the game is not going to be balanced from a 1v1 perspective at all. The game will be primarily balanced from the perspective of 8-player-groups.[source]. So a bard (and probably cleric) will in all likelihood will be intentionally worse when on their own. In that sense there would be no issue with them being primarily buff machines.


Archetype design
I agree that it would be fun to have them be a nimble archetype. I imagined them like primary buffing characters who can either focus on "trickery" (close & short range combat) or "vile speech" (CC and debuffs).
This would already give us 3 out of 4 schools of augmentation that every archetype is supposed to have.

daveywavey

George_Black wrote: »

For those of you that come from countries with rich history, part of them is revolution and part of them are resistance songs.

When people think of bards, straight away their mind goes to some good looking clown like Dandelion with an instrument that doesnt shut up about love/adventure

I want to see a bard with the style of a revolutionary hero, that can inspire party members to take up arms and fight.
Dont know how it could play out but it's just a new image that I want to throw Bards' way.

That'd be cool. Like the Revolutionaries in Les Miserables.

Nova_terra

Kilion wrote: »

Balancing
One point to keep in mind is that the game is not going to be balanced from a 1v1 perspective at all. The game will be primarily balanced from the perspective of 8-player-groups.[source]. So a bard (and probably cleric) will in all likelihood will be intentionally worse when on their own. In that sense there would be no issue with them being primarily buff machines.


Archetype design
I agree that it would be fun to have them be a nimble archetype. I imagined them like primary buffing characters who can either focus on "trickery" (close & short range combat) or "vile speech" (CC and debuffs).
This would already give us 3 out of 4 schools of augmentation that every archetype is supposed to have.

I think Bards can easily be built or crafted by the devs where they are at least functional by themselves with a suite of group buffs/debuffs from things as simple +5% damage to more complex weavings such as "lower resistance to X by Y%" and layering on a buff for "when using X weapon, increase crit by Y%". All of which I think would make them viable in solo situations albeit weaker pound for pound than a standard class while brining interesting dynamics to group play and giving Bards of high skill both high value and the ability to interact with the game in a more dynamic way than afk buffing in the middle of their group.

I like the idea of being able to focus on a small handful of spells that build resources for large spender spells. Something akin to what I was speaking about above and then once a resource threshold is passed, you can exert a larger buff for a short duration. I feel like there is a ton of room for the Bard to be wildly interesting.

Kilion

Of course it is possible, I absolutely agree with that. The point I tried to make was that it is not inteded to be like this. Again - the primary balancing will be done based on groups which probably means there will be archetypes that more suitable for solo play than others. And furthermore I think that the least suitable Archetypes for solo runs will be the support archetypes, because their skillset as support classes will be optimized to shine more in a group scenario.

Tyranthraxus

I'd find it great if Bard didn't have/barely has combat applications, at all - like Entertainerrs were in SWG(or are, in the present incarnation, the SWG:Legends emulator).

Yes, Ents were a buff-class, but this always gave you a reason to go to the cantinas. Granted, SWG only really had 1 really active cantina - but this caused there to be a social hub in the game. Inns and town squares seem to be designed for this in AoC, and I hope we have a reason to constantly visit them.

Nova_terra

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

I'd find it great if Bard didn't have/barely has combat applications, at all - like Entertainerrs were in SWG(or are, in the present incarnation, the SWG:Legends emulator).

Yes, Ents were a buff-class, but this always gave you a reason to go to the cantinas. Granted, SWG only really had 1 really active cantina - but this caused there to be a social hub in the game. Inns and town squares seem to be designed for this in AoC, and I hope we have a reason to constantly visit them.

As an avid SWG player (launch -> 2020) I'd love to see a reason to go to these social hubs as SWG cantinas were a source of great experiences. I am not sure I would really want a combat class (Bard is already confirmed as part of the 64 class hierarchy that has combat functionality) functioning in that way. As I see it, I feel like there should be a crafting/non-combat class set as something in that capacity or a different way to have that social interaction.

Spif

The simple solution to bards being able to have buffs and combat ability is the same as many games take for buff classes:

The bard's buffs apply to self and group (via attack/defense/utility abilities that cause buffs or via passive auras/songs) and with those buffs they have similar damage output and defenses as DPS classes. Then in a group setting the pure DPS classes do more damage than the bard, but the bard buffs the overall group's capabilities.

The danger is making the bard boring to play in a group setting (passive auras), or making the buff mini-game boring (twisting songs ala DAOC, or lots of short buff timers), or making the buff mini-game overcomplicated. IMO this means making the buff game part timers and part reactivity to mob/boss/group actions.

I'm looking forward to playing a game with a buff class, even as I worry about getting 8-man groups filled. Many games have given up on the dedicated buffer (which makes sense with a 4 or 5 man group) to just spread buffs around to the other classes as a way of making all classes valued in a group.

Lastly, I see bard as a mostly ranged class if they are going to be creating buffs from attacks. Modifiable via secondary

Songcaller

Do you think Bard can get away without playing music? I'm interested in Bard for A2 because Summoner is not in A2 initially but musical toons are not my thing. I preferred the paint Bard from Aion. Anyway, I digress. I'd aim to be a Magician if I did go Bard and a musical Magician would be weird in my opinion. I believe you should be able to build how you want to build. I realise songs are par for the course, I just would prefer not to have to use a flute or bagpipes. Of course, I will use a flute or bagpipes if I really have to.

Saabynator

I always saw bards a rogue/warrior/shaman/druid mix. They can do a bit of everything, but in a smaller scale - bit of a jack of all trades. But one thing bards have always been, are amplfiers. They amplify everyone elses abilities and should be a support class. Inside combat, I see them as an utility person. They can do some ghetto version of the real deal. They got a short mezz, a slow, speed - all that, and they attack at the same tiime. But they should only be able to do one or 2 utility things at the same time, besides some enhancing of others. I think AoC devs talked about them being more attack oriented. So their attacks are the "buffs".

Bard does seem - in most games, weak, in solo. They are an amplifier for others, so when they arent doing that, they seem weak. The more people they can enhance, the better. More bang for the buck. But solo, they usually dont do well. What you could do, is make the buff weaker the more they are buffing. Strong the less people you buff. So if your alone or with one buddy, your attacks shoulkd do the same, but your buffs should be stronger. So the buffs are sort of a pool, and say 2 people can train the whole pool and the buffs would be powerful, or 6 people and they are just regular. They could even make a bard spec for to increase the pool.

Outside conbat, bards should have beneficial buffs, that can be used to speed things up. Bard have had that in past games, and it makes them a bit more useful. Mana regen, life regen, runspeed and so on. Those should be the songs, not the combat.

Thats how I see bards.

Songcaller

Aion Bard could take on 5 people and win 1vs1 in arena. It really does depend how good you are at playing the class and how well designed the class is. However, WoW's buffer is really badly designed. After seeing Cleric revamps and Mage revamps I'm quite optimistic about the Bard. I don't think the utilities out of combat will be substantial - we might get one like the rest of the base archetypes. What I'm more interested in is the siege ability that 8 Bards will be able to perform - That's one hell of a buff or utility.

Freemeta

anything is possible. bard could fight with poem and books. they could be street performer, acrobat, mime, comedian, dancer, magician, juggler, painter, humorist, pupetter, even beast tamer.

Depraved

Saabynator wrote: »

I always saw bards a rogue/warrior/shaman/druid mix. They can do a bit of everything, but in a smaller scale - bit of a jack of all trades. But one thing bards have always been, are amplfiers. They amplify everyone elses abilities and should be a support class. Inside combat, I see them as an utility person. They can do some ghetto version of the real deal. They got a short mezz, a slow, speed - all that, and they attack at the same tiime. But they should only be able to do one or 2 utility things at the same time, besides some enhancing of others. I think AoC devs talked about them being more attack oriented. So their attacks are the "buffs".

Bard does seem - in most games, weak, in solo. They are an amplifier for others, so when they arent doing that, they seem weak. The more people they can enhance, the better. More bang for the buck. But solo, they usually dont do well. What you could do, is make the buff weaker the more they are buffing. Strong the less people you buff. So if your alone or with one buddy, your attacks shoulkd do the same, but your buffs should be stronger. So the buffs are sort of a pool, and say 2 people can train the whole pool and the buffs would be powerful, or 6 people and they are just regular. They could even make a bard spec for to increase the pool.

Outside conbat, bards should have beneficial buffs, that can be used to speed things up. Bard have had that in past games, and it makes them a bit more useful. Mana regen, life regen, runspeed and so on. Those should be the songs, not the combat.

Thats how I see bards.

man you were going so well.. why motivate the support class, the soul of the party, to play solo instead of in a full party? why make the buffs weaker in a full party and stronger when you are soloing or duoing? ashes literally wants you to play with people, not solo. also, people would not want them in party then...

bards arent always weak soloing in most games. im sure any class , including bards, will be able to solo progress in the game. bards will be able to 1-50 probably easier than solo dps classes, since they will have buffs and probably a self heal and mana recharge, without reducing their power in a party.

Saabynator

Depraved wrote: »

Saabynator wrote: »

I always saw bards a rogue/warrior/shaman/druid mix. They can do a bit of everything, but in a smaller scale - bit of a jack of all trades. But one thing bards have always been, are amplfiers. They amplify everyone elses abilities and should be a support class. Inside combat, I see them as an utility person. They can do some ghetto version of the real deal. They got a short mezz, a slow, speed - all that, and they attack at the same tiime. But they should only be able to do one or 2 utility things at the same time, besides some enhancing of others. I think AoC devs talked about them being more attack oriented. So their attacks are the "buffs".

Bard does seem - in most games, weak, in solo. They are an amplifier for others, so when they arent doing that, they seem weak. The more people they can enhance, the better. More bang for the buck. But solo, they usually dont do well. What you could do, is make the buff weaker the more they are buffing. Strong the less people you buff. So if your alone or with one buddy, your attacks shoulkd do the same, but your buffs should be stronger. So the buffs are sort of a pool, and say 2 people can train the whole pool and the buffs would be powerful, or 6 people and they are just regular. They could even make a bard spec for to increase the pool.

Outside conbat, bards should have beneficial buffs, that can be used to speed things up. Bard have had that in past games, and it makes them a bit more useful. Mana regen, life regen, runspeed and so on. Those should be the songs, not the combat.

Thats how I see bards.

man you were going so well.. why motivate the support class, the soul of the party, to play solo instead of a full party? why make the buffs weaker in a full party and stronger when you are soloing or duoing? ashes literally wants you to play with people, not solo. also, people would not want them in party then...

bards arent always weak soloing in most games. im sure any class , including bards, will be able to solo progress in the game. bards will be able to 1-50 probably easier than solo dps classes, since they will have buffs and probably a self heal and mana recharge, without reducing their power in a party.

I dont want bards to play alone hehe. But as in all MMOs, support classes can have a hard time soloing stuff. If a class feels weak alone, people have a tendency to avoid them. So they have to feel decent. A necromancer or summoner will prolly be a better solo'er. But its important not to feel impotent alone.

So the buffs would just be as a small buff, incase you wanna duo, solo etc. But your AC,Attacks etc stays the same.

Depraved

not in all mmo. it depends on the game.

ashes 1-50 will be on the harder side. being able to heal yourself and killing non stop is better than killing 2 mobs quickly then sitting down for 5 mins to kill the next to.

its entirely possible that the cleric and the bard will farm faster than other classes (maybe except the summoner) simply because they dont have to stop killing mobs, even if it takes them a few extra seconds per mob

Songcaller

Cleric can AoE and Heal like a beast. Bard is an unknown. It Bard can also AoE then I have no qualms. Bard in DAoC was a beast with AoE. I can only imagine Bard has AoE because of the buffs having to hit parties and raid groups.

Saabynator

Depraved wrote: »

not in all mmo. it depends on the game.

ashes 1-50 will be on the harder side. being able to heal yourself and killing non stop is better than killing 2 mobs quickly then sitting down for 5 mins to kill the next to.

its entirely possible that the cleric and the bard will farm faster than other classes (maybe except the summoner) simply because they dont have to stop killing mobs, even if it takes them a few extra seconds per mob

You might be right, we have no idea, yet. Groups does seem the best option, though. Which I really like. I love games, where solo is a weaker option then grouping.

Depraved

its important that people can log in and do stuff in the game though. its not realistic to expect people to always be in a party during their whole play session, every time. but i think you can solve that problem without reducing the effectiveness of each class in party play ;3

Enigmatic Sage

Based on what the wiki currently says,

The bard is a tactical non-healing support role. Bards are intended to amplify a party or raid's ability to perform within their own class. That amplification isn't just intended for DPS, but also for support, for healing, for taking damage, for movement.

So I imagine based on what archetype they're paired with secondarily they would essentially be relatively decent in 1v1 even though the game isn't supposed to be balanced around that.

Sounds like there will be lots of viability around skills and personalisation for archetype identity. They not only produce music, but dances and stories (however that plays out.. lol). Supposed to be a "jack of all trades"


https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bard

Songcaller

Yeah...there's confusion still. Bard used to be the secondary healer. Then Steven said Bards don't heal. Then Steven said Bards are secondary healer. So we have:

Bard is a tactical non-healing support role.

and

Bard is able to perform proc based healing.

Enigmatic Sage

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah...there's confusion still. Bard used to be the secondary healer. Then Steven said Bards don't heal. Then Steven said Bards are secondary healer. So we have:

Bard is a tactical non-healing support role.

and

Bard is able to perform proc based healing.

"dev's do say a lot of things" lol

anyways, proc based would imply they're not really a healing support but because the proc could be based off party or raid output thresholds.

IE: once party does x amount of damage with buff active, heal procs and auto or manual cast

(just a basic example I don't really know)

Songcaller

Bards can offer proximity-based or proc-based healing, but to a much lesser degree than Clerics.[4][5][13]

Thus, it is the secondary healer in all but designation lol.

edit: I think life necromancer will become the secondary healer though.

Enigmatic Sage

Neurath wrote: »

Bards can offer proximity-based or proc-based healing, but to a much lesser degree than Clerics.[4][5][13]

Thus, it is the secondary healer in all but designation lol.

edit: I think life necromancer will become the secondary healer though.

Which suggests to me they're more of a support to a support type healer lol if that makes sense. Based off current wiki, sounds like you wouldn't want to bring them as a sole healer .We unfortunately do not know the frequency of procs or proximity allowances to suggest they would currently be a viable healer choice.

It's all hypothetical theory crafting off vague information subject to change haha

Songcaller

yeah, good to heal a combat pet but bard is definitely not a solo healer. though bard/cleric would increase the proximity heals and provide self heals.

Enigmatic Sage

Neurath wrote: »

yeah, good to heal a combat pet but bard is definitely not a solo healer. though bard/cleric would increase the proximity heals and provide self heals.

true, it would suggest the secondary archetype pairing for the class would provide more cleric-like influences to the party and their abilities.

Songcaller

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

yeah, good to heal a combat pet but bard is definitely not a solo healer. though bard/cleric would increase the proximity heals and provide self heals.

true, it would suggest the secondary archetype pairing for the class would provide more cleric-like influences to the party and their abilities.

Only the life augment school from Cleric. Steven said a while ago it adds self heals and small proximity heals. It would just increase the bard's process nicely though. I'm not sure what bard augment schools are available though.

Enigmatic Sage

Neurath wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

yeah, good to heal a combat pet but bard is definitely not a solo healer. though bard/cleric would increase the proximity heals and provide self heals.

true, it would suggest the secondary archetype pairing for the class would provide more cleric-like influences to the party and their abilities.

Only the life augment school from Cleric. Steven said a while ago it adds self heals and small proximity heals. It would just increase the bard's process nicely though. I'm not sure what bard augment schools are available though.

Definitely sounds like it.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Class_augments

Classes with Cleric as a secondary archetype are able to choose between life or death augments.[16][17]

Choosing life augments will provide self-healing benefits as well as limited life-giving benefits to other players.[18][19][16]
Some cleric augments applied to certain skills will indirectly provide the ability to heal others. These will not replace the need for a cleric archetype.[20]
Cleric augments will radically change the type of summons available from the summoner primary archetype.[21]
Skeletons, zombies and other undead summons will be possible with death-based augments.[21][22]
Any class that's going to choose Cleric as a secondary class will have the ability to pick from those augments to influence their skills to affect the life of others around you.[16] – Steven Sharif

Songcaller

I think it pairs well for a solo bard. However, Bards that are group focussed would be better with DPS addition or stronger buffs if the Bard augments add buffs. Of course, augments from other sources might also be a boon.

Enigmatic Sage

Neurath wrote: »

I think it pairs well for a solo bard. However, Bards that are group focussed would be better with DPS addition or stronger buffs if the Bard augments add buffs. Of course, augments from other sources might also be a boon.

Buffs/debuffs or boons/banes, are essentially the same thing just worded differently. Positive effects vs negative effects.

bard + cleric = soul weaver

I wonder how racial augments and religious augments will tie into the design for it.