Hopefully the main top 9% or less *instanced* dungeons also don't drop mats or gear.
All content should provide reward appropriate to the challenge offered.
There are no exceptions to this.
yeah, I've said before a Cosmetic Item would be perfect. You want to show off.
The point of content and reward isnt to show off. It is to progress.
If the challenge is non-existent, appearance items are fine.
If there is an actual challenge, there should be an actual reward.
I think you've confused the idea of progress. PvP in other games offers Mounts and Costumes. PvP Experience unlocks the Armour. You can gain experience to unlock the armour but you shouldn't gain the armour without contestation. Conversely, I've requested a PvE Season to go alongside the PvP Season in a different thread which would give enchantments and enhancements if you're good enough to rank high.
Instance dungeons should be for lore and quest storyline bits. That being said I think it would also be better if it was restricted to just certain areas, not a whole dungeon. I wouldn't mind it being like swtor where just certain rooms or branches of areas are instanced for cutscenes and dialogue bits
The only other time it would be necessary would be if ashes tried to do any kind of competitive pve rankings. You would need a controlled environment for that. But they haven't said they would do anything like that so it shouldn't be necessary.
Instance dungeons should be for lore and quest storyline bits. That being said I think it would also be better if it was restricted to just certain areas, not a whole dungeon. I wouldn't mind it being like swtor where just certain rooms or branches of areas are instanced for cutscenes and dialogue bits
The only other time it would be necessary would be if ashes tried to do any kind of competitive pve rankings. You would need a controlled environment for that. But they haven't said they would do anything like that so it shouldn't be necessary.
Balderdash. Caravans and Guild Wars aren't controlled environments and they are part of PvP Seasons. Contested Dungeons, Instanced Dungeons and World Boss Kills can all be used for PvE Seasons without the need for a controlled environment.
I think you've confused the idea of progress. PvP in other games offers Mounts and Costumes.
That is a reward commensurate with low challenge.
Most such PvP rewards are based on simple participation (earning currency to eventually buy the item). This is in a setting where 50% of participants are going to win, which is a higher success rate than most moderately difficult PvE. Non-progression cosmetic rewards are appropriate for such a setting.
Edit to add; the idea of seasons is a horrid game design, imo. It has all the same negative effects as daily quests (must log in to do the task), but lasts for the full duration of the season.
Absolutely horrid, underhanded, despicable game design. I would rather open pay to win than season based gameplay like this.
I think you've confused the idea of progress. PvP in other games offers Mounts and Costumes.
That is a reward commensurate with low challenge.
Most such PvP rewards are based on simple participation (earning currency to eventually buy the item). This is in a setting where 50% of participants are going to win, which is a higher success rate than most moderately difficult PvE. Non-progression cosmetic rewards are appropriate for such a setting.
No its not simple participation. Its based on victories. If you think you'll win 50% of contested pvp fights why are you so adamant you need resources and gear from instanced content?
The participation is the experience gain from the PvP which you would get from the PvE. Also, having access to flying mount eggs in instance content is more than generous seeing they will sell for a lot of gold and provide immense power on the PvP battlefield for a short time span.
Edit: I start to feel like you're all talk and no substance. You would have no issue toping the ranks in a PvE Season if you were as competent as you claim. Enchantments and Enhancements would be invaluable to your whole team/guild and would provide much more power than a unique legendary drop. Yet, you claim PvP is easy, PvE Season is trash and moderate PvE is like PvP.
Instance dungeons should be for lore and quest storyline bits. That being said I think it would also be better if it was restricted to just certain areas, not a whole dungeon. I wouldn't mind it being like swtor where just certain rooms or branches of areas are instanced for cutscenes and dialogue bits
The only other time it would be necessary would be if ashes tried to do any kind of competitive pve rankings. You would need a controlled environment for that. But they haven't said they would do anything like that so it shouldn't be necessary.
Balderdash. Caravans and Guild Wars aren't controlled environments and they are part of PvP Seasons. Contested Dungeons, Instanced Dungeons and World Boss Kills can all be used for PvE Seasons without the need for a controlled environment.
A ) .... Balderdash... 😆
B ) sure they can be used. But I'm comparing a M+ run for time to the dungeon environment ashes will have... Being pvx means you may or may not have people effecting your dungeon run, in my opinion that makes every run time for that content have an * on it because who knows whether they had a party ahead of them killing half the trash or they got attacked by other groups mid boss fight three times... Sure you can say that's all apart of the game, but I think it would make that leaderboard just as much pure luck as any skill or practice.
Instance dungeons should be for lore and quest storyline bits. That being said I think it would also be better if it was restricted to just certain areas, not a whole dungeon. I wouldn't mind it being like swtor where just certain rooms or branches of areas are instanced for cutscenes and dialogue bits
The only other time it would be necessary would be if ashes tried to do any kind of competitive pve rankings. You would need a controlled environment for that. But they haven't said they would do anything like that so it shouldn't be necessary.
Balderdash. Caravans and Guild Wars aren't controlled environments and they are part of PvP Seasons. Contested Dungeons, Instanced Dungeons and World Boss Kills can all be used for PvE Seasons without the need for a controlled environment.
A ) .... Balderdash... 😆
B ) sure they can be used. But I'm comparing a M+ run for time to the dungeon environment ashes will have... Being pvx means you may or may not have people effecting your dungeon run, in my opinion that makes every run time for that content have an * on it because who knows whether they had a party ahead of them killing half the trash or they got attacked by other groups mid boss fight three times... Sure you can say that's all apart of the game, but I think it would make that leaderboard just as much pure luck as any skill or practice.
I don't think you grasp the situation. The instanced content is the highest value, not the contested dungeons. Bosses are the highest value, trash is insignificant. The instance content is meant to be under 9% of people able to do it. Also, the deeper you go in dungeons means the harder the dungeons become which are worth more. I haven't seen much about World Bosses but again, these can be weighted in terms of difficulty.
I think you've confused the idea of progress. PvP in other games offers Mounts and Costumes.
That is a reward commensurate with low challenge.
Most such PvP rewards are based on simple participation (earning currency to eventually buy the item). This is in a setting where 50% of participants are going to win, which is a higher success rate than most moderately difficult PvE. Non-progression cosmetic rewards are appropriate for such a setting.
No its not simple participation. Its based on victories. If you think you'll win 50% of contested pvp fights why are you so adamant you need resources and gear from instanced content?
The participation is the experience gain from the PvP which you would get from the PvE. Also, having access to flying mount eggs in instance content is more than generous seeing they will sell for a lot of gold and provide immense power on the PvP battlefield for a short time span.
In a season based PvP system, yes, you need wins. In a currency based system without negative currency if you lose, it is based on participation.
This is because statistically, more than 50% of PvP participants win - which in itself is due to the fact that the more people you bring, the more likely you are to win.
In an arena setting, it is a fairly static 50% of all participants win (completely static if a draw is considered half of a win in terms of reward).
Edit: I start to feel like you're all talk and no substance. You would have no issue toping the ranks in a PvE Season if you were as competent as you claim. Enchantments and Enhancements would be invaluable to your whole team/guild and would provide much more power than a unique legendary drop. Yet, you claim PvP is easy, PvE Season is trash and moderate PvE is like PvP.
As per the edit to my above post, I will never play an MMORPG with season based PvE.
I think you've confused the idea of progress. PvP in other games offers Mounts and Costumes.
That is a reward commensurate with low challenge.
Most such PvP rewards are based on simple participation (earning currency to eventually buy the item). This is in a setting where 50% of participants are going to win, which is a higher success rate than most moderately difficult PvE. Non-progression cosmetic rewards are appropriate for such a setting.
No its not simple participation. Its based on victories. If you think you'll win 50% of contested pvp fights why are you so adamant you need resources and gear from instanced content?
The participation is the experience gain from the PvP which you would get from the PvE. Also, having access to flying mount eggs in instance content is more than generous seeing they will sell for a lot of gold and provide immense power on the PvP battlefield for a short time span.
In a season based PvP system, yes, you need wins. In a currency based system without negative currency if you lose, it is based on participation.
This is because statistically, more than 50% of PvP participants win - which in itself is due to the fact that the more people you bring, the more likely you are to win.
In an arena setting, it is a fairly static 50% of all participants win (completely static if a draw is considered half of a win in terms of reward).
Edit: I start to feel like you're all talk and no substance. You would have no issue toping the ranks in a PvE Season if you were as competent as you claim. Enchantments and Enhancements would be invaluable to your whole team/guild and would provide much more power than a unique legendary drop. Yet, you claim PvP is easy, PvE Season is trash and moderate PvE is like PvP.
As per the edit to my above post, I will never play an MMORPG with season based PvE.
I don't know what you've read but Arena doesn't give currencies or arena points to buy gear. No PvP gives currencies or points to buy gear. There is no magic wand to get gear in PvP in Ashes. You want an easy route to obtain the best gear in the game - with no contestation, minimal effort, DPS Metered and also non competitive in any way. Where is risk in such an approach and why should such an approach be rewarded? In Arena it seems I will have to repair my gear but I don't get resources or armour drops to assist with the repairs.
It is not true that the more people you bring the more likely you are to win in PvP. In such a circumstance you could cheese PvP and win 100% of the time just by zerging. What's the point of the PvP Season in such a circumstance. You feel a PvE Season is beneath you but from your stance it seems the PvP Season is worth even less. You have a very low opinion of PvP players it seems. I'm not surprised if you think its equal to moderate PvE.
Instance dungeons should be for lore and quest storyline bits. That being said I think it would also be better if it was restricted to just certain areas, not a whole dungeon. I wouldn't mind it being like swtor where just certain rooms or branches of areas are instanced for cutscenes and dialogue bits
The only other time it would be necessary would be if ashes tried to do any kind of competitive pve rankings. You would need a controlled environment for that. But they haven't said they would do anything like that so it shouldn't be necessary.
Balderdash. Caravans and Guild Wars aren't controlled environments and they are part of PvP Seasons. Contested Dungeons, Instanced Dungeons and World Boss Kills can all be used for PvE Seasons without the need for a controlled environment.
A ) .... Balderdash... 😆
B ) sure they can be used. But I'm comparing a M+ run for time to the dungeon environment ashes will have... Being pvx means you may or may not have people effecting your dungeon run, in my opinion that makes every run time for that content have an * on it because who knows whether they had a party ahead of them killing half the trash or they got attacked by other groups mid boss fight three times... Sure you can say that's all apart of the game, but I think it would make that leaderboard just as much pure luck as any skill or practice.
I don't think you grasp the situation. The instanced content is the highest value, not the contested dungeons. Bosses are the highest value, trash is insignificant. The instance content is meant to be under 9% of people able to do it. Also, the deeper you go in dungeons means the harder the dungeons become which are worth more. I haven't seen much about World Bosses but again, these can be weighted in terms of difficulty.
Ok
You are thinking of a leaderboard in terms of completion? As in just first to finish the thing.
But what I'm not grasping is where you're getting that from, did Steven change what he said about instanced encounters?
"...However, with that being said, we do have a division of curated experiences that exist in an 80:20 ratio; and what that means is roughly 20% of the content that players will experience will be instanced, because where we want to have that granular control over the design and mechanics of a particular storyline or encounter we utilize the instance setting to provide that.[1] – Steven Sharif"
To me that says storyline and lore...so most people...
Not "under 9% of players" like you're saying
Also
Instances not intended to be places that can be farmed repeatedly.[7]
Instanced content will contain scripted and difficult boss fights that drop gear, but the gear drops will not be best-in-slot items.[6]
Instance dungeons should be for lore and quest storyline bits. That being said I think it would also be better if it was restricted to just certain areas, not a whole dungeon. I wouldn't mind it being like swtor where just certain rooms or branches of areas are instanced for cutscenes and dialogue bits
The only other time it would be necessary would be if ashes tried to do any kind of competitive pve rankings. You would need a controlled environment for that. But they haven't said they would do anything like that so it shouldn't be necessary.
Balderdash. Caravans and Guild Wars aren't controlled environments and they are part of PvP Seasons. Contested Dungeons, Instanced Dungeons and World Boss Kills can all be used for PvE Seasons without the need for a controlled environment.
A ) .... Balderdash... 😆
B ) sure they can be used. But I'm comparing a M+ run for time to the dungeon environment ashes will have... Being pvx means you may or may not have people effecting your dungeon run, in my opinion that makes every run time for that content have an * on it because who knows whether they had a party ahead of them killing half the trash or they got attacked by other groups mid boss fight three times... Sure you can say that's all apart of the game, but I think it would make that leaderboard just as much pure luck as any skill or practice.
I don't think you grasp the situation. The instanced content is the highest value, not the contested dungeons. Bosses are the highest value, trash is insignificant. The instance content is meant to be under 9% of people able to do it. Also, the deeper you go in dungeons means the harder the dungeons become which are worth more. I haven't seen much about World Bosses but again, these can be weighted in terms of difficulty.
Ok
You are thinking of a leaderboard in terms of completion? As in just first to finish the thing.
But what I'm not grasping is where you're getting that from, did Steven change what he said about instanced encounters?
"...However, with that being said, we do have a division of curated experiences that exist in an 80:20 ratio; and what that means is roughly 20% of the content that players will experience will be instanced, because where we want to have that granular control over the design and mechanics of a particular storyline or encounter we utilize the instance setting to provide that.[1] – Steven Sharif"
To me that says storyline and lore...so most people...
Not "under 9% of players" like you're saying
Also
Instances not intended to be places that can be farmed repeatedly.[7]
Instanced content will contain scripted and difficult boss fights that drop gear, but the gear drops will not be best-in-slot items.[6]
Steven said a long time ago there will be instanced content that singular digits will be able to complete on each server. That statement and those instances are what I refer to. The fact you can't even quote it means that myself and Noaani are unable to believe the highest instances will be available at all. In this discussion those are the instances we are referring to. Not the story line instances, but the challenge instances.
You want an easy route to obtain the best gear in the game - with no contestation, minimal effort, DPS Metered and also non competitive in any way.
I have said many, many times, including in many discussions that you have been in and that you have replied to, that I do not want to see the best gear in the game drop from instanced content.
You *KNOW* this is my stance.
You have no reason to make the above claim at all, other than as a means to deflect.
It is not true that the more people you bring the more likely you are to win in PvP.
Are you sure this is a statement you want to stand behind?
I mean, it's kind of the basis of all open world PvP.
Its not the basis of all open world PvP. In group based PvP a group can take on multiple times the amount of players. It depends on many factors. I can't be specific in Ashes live game but the old Cleric could take on 5 people vs 1 and still won in A1. Now imagine each class in a group and all players are good PvPers. Not static PvPers, mobile PvPers. Not just an 8 man group but a raid group. We can crack much bigger targets when we want and we do. There will be situations where it is even required but I can't go into specifics. I have the guild to honour.
Edit: I wish you'd stop editing when I'm doing my responses.
You want an easy route to obtain the best gear in the game - with no contestation, minimal effort, DPS Metered and also non competitive in any way.
I have said many, many times, including in many discussions that you have been in and that you have replied to, that I do not want to see the best gear in the game drop from instanced content.
You *KNOW* this is my stance.
You have no reason to make the above claim at all, other than as a means to deflect.
So, you want reward equal to the challenge. The challenge is the hardest PvE in the game and you want gear equal to the challenge. That means BiS or close to it. Unique Legendaries at the best of it. You basically want a shot at the same loot that contested dungeons and world bosses drop. (Not sure if world bosses will be removed from contestation like we wish at this time). I'm not trying to deflect. I'm trying to highlight the folly of the situation.
So, you want reward equal to the challenge. The challenge is the hardest PvE in the game and you want gear equal to the challenge. That means BiS or close to it. Unique Legendaries at the best of it.
So, either there are two people posting from your account, or you don't pay attention.
Rarity is in itself a part of content challenge. An encounter that only spawns once a week on a server is inherently much harder than an encounter that all guilds can access via an instance.
It is not true that the more people you bring the more likely you are to win in PvP.
Are you sure this is a statement you want to stand behind?
I mean, it's kind of the basis of all open world PvP.
Its not the basis of all open world PvP. In group based PvP a group can take on multiple times the amount of players. It depends on many factors. I can't be specific in Ashes live game but the old Cleric could take on 5 people vs 1 and still won in A1. Now imagine each class in a group and all players are good PvPers. Not static PvPers, mobile PvPers. Not just an 8 man group but a raid group. We can crack much bigger targets when we want and we do. There will be situations where it is even required but I can't go into specifics. I have the guild to honour.
I didn't say that it is always the case, I said it is almost always the case.
Yes, there are times when a smaller number can beat a larger number, but they are rare. The number of times a larger number can beat a smaller number are so common that individual situations where this happens don't stand out at all because it's just normal.
From a statistical perspective, more people win PvP than lose.
So, you want reward equal to the challenge. The challenge is the hardest PvE in the game and you want gear equal to the challenge. That means BiS or close to it. Unique Legendaries at the best of it.
So, either there are two people posting from your account, or you don't pay attention.
Rarity is in itself a part of content challenge. An encounter that only spawns once a week on a server is inherently much harder than an encounter that all guilds can access via an instance.
It is not true that the more people you bring the more likely you are to win in PvP.
Are you sure this is a statement you want to stand behind?
I mean, it's kind of the basis of all open world PvP.
Its not the basis of all open world PvP. In group based PvP a group can take on multiple times the amount of players. It depends on many factors. I can't be specific in Ashes live game but the old Cleric could take on 5 people vs 1 and still won in A1. Now imagine each class in a group and all players are good PvPers. Not static PvPers, mobile PvPers. Not just an 8 man group but a raid group. We can crack much bigger targets when we want and we do. There will be situations where it is even required but I can't go into specifics. I have the guild to honour.
I didn't say that it is always the case, I said it is almost always the case.
Yes, there are times when a smaller number can beat a larger number, but they are rare. The number of times a larger number can beat a smaller number are so common that individual situations where this happens don't stand out at all because it's just normal.
From a statistical perspective, more people win PvP than lose.
Hopefully the main top 9% or less *instanced* dungeons also don't drop mats or gear.
All content should provide reward appropriate to the challenge offered.
There are no exceptions to this.
Here's the quote I refer to. Also, when I said remove World Bosses from contestation I meant the corruption system, my bad. You can flip and detract as much as you want. I've killed many bosses that spawn once a month. It was a 12 month quest to kill all 12. Were these bosses harder than t7 raids? No they were not. They weren't even harder than t5 raids. However, you refer to AA and EQ which is fair enough. However, not all MMOs and functions are like AA and EQ. A lot has been expanded on from EQ in later MMOs. Rarity is not a mark of challenge at all. Some rare mobs will be more challenging than others. Depends on who is killing said mobs, whether there's contestation and whether there's more than one mob at a time.
Furthermore, I've fought outnumbered in PvP in almost all MMOs I have played (Except in the numerous Arenas). It is not true that more numbers win almost always. If that was true there'd be no resistance, no smaller guilds, no pro guilds, no PvX Guilds. There would just be Mega Guilds.
Yes, and as we have discussed in the past, an encounter that you can pull in order to learn dozens or hundreds of times is inherently less of a challenge (even if a more difficult encounter) than an encounter you can only pull two or three times due to it being open world.
There is nothing inconsistent here, nor am I saying I want the best gear on instanced content.
The only thing really on display here (as far as I can see) is you neither remembering previous discussions nor understanding PvE challenge.
Yes, and as we have discussed in the past, an encounter that you can pull in order to learn dozens or hundreds of times is inherently less of a challenge (even if a more difficult encounter) than an encounter you can only pull two or three times due to it being open world.
There is nothing inconsistent here, nor am I saying I want the best gear on instanced content.
The only thing really on display here (as far as I can see) is you neither remembering previous discussions nor understanding PvE challenge.
I haven't forgotten the past conversations though I am in deep detachment. Trust me when I say I'm scared from the all nighter we had years ago so I try not to argue with you because we are both able to go all night. The issue was you made the quote in reference to Instanced Dungeons - Not open world bosses. Challenge is subjective, you can enter a dungeon at level 10 (hope there's a level 10 dungeon) and die a lot learning the class and the composition of the dynamic dungeon countless times. Same applies to the top end or the single digit dungeons. However, the challenge in single digit dungeons is keeping people motivation, supplied, repaired, patient, focussed and all the same aspects as for open world bosses. Mechanics are mechanics and once mechanics are discovered the challenge is much reduced. Its why the pathfinders always have a rough time but the pathfinders write the mechanics for others to follow. Even Method explains how to do mechanics for the less able. My point is, Method will learn dungeons naked.
Mechanics are mechanics and once mechanics are discovered the challenge is much reduced.
While this is true in a sense, discovering (and understanding) mechanics is a part of the challenge.
However, the amount of challenge reduction from understanding a mechanic is far less than the reduction gained from simply gaining a few levels - which is why most actual challenge in regards to content happens at the level cap.
The issue was you made the quote in reference to Instanced Dungeons - Not open world bosses.
The comment I made was that content should provide reward commensurate to its challenge.
You are the one that took that to be me wanting the best gear in the game from instanced content despite previous discussions where I have said that is not what I want, and explained my reasoning.
Mechanics are mechanics and once mechanics are discovered the challenge is much reduced.
While this is true in a sense, discovering (and understanding) mechanics is a part of the challenge.
However, the amount of challenge reduction from understanding a mechanic is far less than the reduction gained from simply gaining a few levels - which is why most actual challenge in regards to content happens at the level cap.
The issue was you made the quote in reference to Instanced Dungeons - Not open world bosses.
The comment I made was that content should provide reward commensurate to its challenge.
You are the one that took that to be me wanting the best gear in the game from instanced content despite previous discussions where I have said that is not what I want, and explained my reasoning.
Yes, I understand your point but I don't want gear to drop at all. Its a different matter entirely if we discuss resources - and in such a circumstance, I would hope it would be the best resources possible so you could repair your gear and craft your BiS. However, I still do not want whole gear to be dropped by the single digit instances because gear does not drop in PvP unless you're corrupted so its got no risk associated with it. Just the pain of acquisition.
Mechanics are mechanics and once mechanics are discovered the challenge is much reduced.
While this is true in a sense, discovering (and understanding) mechanics is a part of the challenge.
However, the amount of challenge reduction from understanding a mechanic is far less than the reduction gained from simply gaining a few levels - which is why most actual challenge in regards to content happens at the level cap.
The issue was you made the quote in reference to Instanced Dungeons - Not open world bosses.
The comment I made was that content should provide reward commensurate to its challenge.
You are the one that took that to be me wanting the best gear in the game from instanced content despite previous discussions where I have said that is not what I want, and explained my reasoning.
Yes, I understand your point but I don't want gear to drop at all. Its a different matter entirely if we discuss resources - and in such a circumstance, I would hope it would be the best resources possible so you could repair your gear and craft your BiS. However, I still do not want whole gear to be dropped by the single digit instances because gear does not drop in PvP unless you're corrupted so its got no risk associated with it. Just the pain of acquisition.
Dropping finished items vs components is a different discussion to dropping cosmetics.
Mechanics are mechanics and once mechanics are discovered the challenge is much reduced.
While this is true in a sense, discovering (and understanding) mechanics is a part of the challenge.
However, the amount of challenge reduction from understanding a mechanic is far less than the reduction gained from simply gaining a few levels - which is why most actual challenge in regards to content happens at the level cap.
The issue was you made the quote in reference to Instanced Dungeons - Not open world bosses.
The comment I made was that content should provide reward commensurate to its challenge.
You are the one that took that to be me wanting the best gear in the game from instanced content despite previous discussions where I have said that is not what I want, and explained my reasoning.
Yes, I understand your point but I don't want gear to drop at all. Its a different matter entirely if we discuss resources - and in such a circumstance, I would hope it would be the best resources possible so you could repair your gear and craft your BiS. However, I still do not want whole gear to be dropped by the single digit instances because gear does not drop in PvP unless you're corrupted so its got no risk associated with it. Just the pain of acquisition.
Dropping finished items vs components is a different discussion to dropping cosmetics.
I requested Cosmetics from the achievements. Not sure if it was in this thread or not though. However, you'd still get cosmetics from the achievements if I had my way. Resources on the other hand can transfer from player to player through an ambush outside an instance.
Resources on the other hand can transfer from player to player through an ambush outside an instance.
The fact that this is not only possible but actually probable is my main argument against people saying instanced content gives players a reward without contest.
It may be less contest, but there is still a contest to be had should someone take them up on it.
However, as a reminder for you, this was your original comment in this thread that I took issue with
Resources on the other hand can transfer from player to player through an ambush outside an instance.
The fact that this is not only possible but actually probable is my main argument against people saying instanced content gives players a reward without contest.
It may be less contest, but there is still a contest to be had should someone take them up on it.
However, as a reminder for you, this was your original comment in this thread that I took issue with
Hopefully the main top 9% or less *instanced* dungeons also don't drop mats or gear.
Now, if you want to go back on that and say mats are fine, cool.
No I don't want schematic materials, only resources to craft gear. I think the schematics should come from elsewhere otherwise you'll have a monopoly again. I haven't heard schematic materials can be dropped in PvP, only resources. By schematic materials I mean the blueprints for the professions. Don't forgot, you won't be in the instances alone, I will also aim to be in the single digits so I'm not trying to be harsh to you just fair to us both.
No I don't want schematic materials, only resources to craft gear. I think the schematics should come from elsewhere otherwise you'll have a monopoly again. I haven't heard schematic materials can be dropped in PvP, only resources. By schematic materials I mean the blueprints for the professions. Don't forgot, you won't be in the instances alone, I will also aim to be in the single digits so I'm not trying to be harsh to you just fair to us both.
Again, blueprints vs materials dropping is a different discussion.
No I don't want schematic materials, only resources to craft gear. I think the schematics should come from elsewhere otherwise you'll have a monopoly again. I haven't heard schematic materials can be dropped in PvP, only resources. By schematic materials I mean the blueprints for the professions. Don't forgot, you won't be in the instances alone, I will also aim to be in the single digits so I'm not trying to be harsh to you just fair to us both.
Again, blueprints vs materials dropping is a different discussion.
The schematic materials can drop from bosses (Blueprints). I don't think they can drop from players. So, only things that can drop from players (I call them resources because I don't know exactly what will drop but it wont be materials because I think you have to collect cotton and silk elsewhere). Thus, I still don't want gear or mats to drop in the single digit instances - just Mounts, Resources and Costumes for the achievements. I suppose we'll get some sort of Hides but the leather material would be made outside the instance by the leather workers I assume.
there is already a wall to get gear from freeholds. cant put another wall to get gear from instances that only less than 10% of players can complete, unless you relally wanna slow things down. maybe if the instances can be done over and over without any limits, then sure.
i dont think there is a right or wrong answer for what type of rewards you should get from the most difficult content. it just depends on the game and other systems as well.
Comments
All content should provide reward appropriate to the challenge offered.
There are no exceptions to this.
yeah, I've said before a Cosmetic Item would be perfect. You want to show off.
If the challenge is non-existent, appearance items are fine.
If there is an actual challenge, there should be an actual reward.
I think you've confused the idea of progress. PvP in other games offers Mounts and Costumes. PvP Experience unlocks the Armour. You can gain experience to unlock the armour but you shouldn't gain the armour without contestation. Conversely, I've requested a PvE Season to go alongside the PvP Season in a different thread which would give enchantments and enhancements if you're good enough to rank high.
The only other time it would be necessary would be if ashes tried to do any kind of competitive pve rankings. You would need a controlled environment for that. But they haven't said they would do anything like that so it shouldn't be necessary.
Balderdash. Caravans and Guild Wars aren't controlled environments and they are part of PvP Seasons. Contested Dungeons, Instanced Dungeons and World Boss Kills can all be used for PvE Seasons without the need for a controlled environment.
Most such PvP rewards are based on simple participation (earning currency to eventually buy the item). This is in a setting where 50% of participants are going to win, which is a higher success rate than most moderately difficult PvE. Non-progression cosmetic rewards are appropriate for such a setting.
Edit to add; the idea of seasons is a horrid game design, imo. It has all the same negative effects as daily quests (must log in to do the task), but lasts for the full duration of the season.
Absolutely horrid, underhanded, despicable game design. I would rather open pay to win than season based gameplay like this.
No its not simple participation. Its based on victories. If you think you'll win 50% of contested pvp fights why are you so adamant you need resources and gear from instanced content?
The participation is the experience gain from the PvP which you would get from the PvE. Also, having access to flying mount eggs in instance content is more than generous seeing they will sell for a lot of gold and provide immense power on the PvP battlefield for a short time span.
Edit: I start to feel like you're all talk and no substance. You would have no issue toping the ranks in a PvE Season if you were as competent as you claim. Enchantments and Enhancements would be invaluable to your whole team/guild and would provide much more power than a unique legendary drop. Yet, you claim PvP is easy, PvE Season is trash and moderate PvE is like PvP.
A ) .... Balderdash... 😆
B ) sure they can be used. But I'm comparing a M+ run for time to the dungeon environment ashes will have... Being pvx means you may or may not have people effecting your dungeon run, in my opinion that makes every run time for that content have an * on it because who knows whether they had a party ahead of them killing half the trash or they got attacked by other groups mid boss fight three times... Sure you can say that's all apart of the game, but I think it would make that leaderboard just as much pure luck as any skill or practice.
I don't think you grasp the situation. The instanced content is the highest value, not the contested dungeons. Bosses are the highest value, trash is insignificant. The instance content is meant to be under 9% of people able to do it. Also, the deeper you go in dungeons means the harder the dungeons become which are worth more. I haven't seen much about World Bosses but again, these can be weighted in terms of difficulty.
This is because statistically, more than 50% of PvP participants win - which in itself is due to the fact that the more people you bring, the more likely you are to win.
In an arena setting, it is a fairly static 50% of all participants win (completely static if a draw is considered half of a win in terms of reward). As per the edit to my above post, I will never play an MMORPG with season based PvE.
I don't know what you've read but Arena doesn't give currencies or arena points to buy gear. No PvP gives currencies or points to buy gear. There is no magic wand to get gear in PvP in Ashes. You want an easy route to obtain the best gear in the game - with no contestation, minimal effort, DPS Metered and also non competitive in any way. Where is risk in such an approach and why should such an approach be rewarded? In Arena it seems I will have to repair my gear but I don't get resources or armour drops to assist with the repairs.
It is not true that the more people you bring the more likely you are to win in PvP. In such a circumstance you could cheese PvP and win 100% of the time just by zerging. What's the point of the PvP Season in such a circumstance. You feel a PvE Season is beneath you but from your stance it seems the PvP Season is worth even less. You have a very low opinion of PvP players it seems. I'm not surprised if you think its equal to moderate PvE.
Ok
You are thinking of a leaderboard in terms of completion? As in just first to finish the thing.
But what I'm not grasping is where you're getting that from, did Steven change what he said about instanced encounters?
"...However, with that being said, we do have a division of curated experiences that exist in an 80:20 ratio; and what that means is roughly 20% of the content that players will experience will be instanced, because where we want to have that granular control over the design and mechanics of a particular storyline or encounter we utilize the instance setting to provide that.[1] – Steven Sharif"
To me that says storyline and lore...so most people...
Not "under 9% of players" like you're saying
Also
Instances not intended to be places that can be farmed repeatedly.[7]
Instanced content will contain scripted and difficult boss fights that drop gear, but the gear drops will not be best-in-slot items.[6]
Maybe you should go read this?
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Instancing
Steven said a long time ago there will be instanced content that singular digits will be able to complete on each server. That statement and those instances are what I refer to. The fact you can't even quote it means that myself and Noaani are unable to believe the highest instances will be available at all. In this discussion those are the instances we are referring to. Not the story line instances, but the challenge instances.
I have said many, many times, including in many discussions that you have been in and that you have replied to, that I do not want to see the best gear in the game drop from instanced content.
You *KNOW* this is my stance.
You have no reason to make the above claim at all, other than as a means to deflect.
Are you sure this is a statement you want to stand behind?
I mean, it's kind of the basis of all open world PvP.
Its not the basis of all open world PvP. In group based PvP a group can take on multiple times the amount of players. It depends on many factors. I can't be specific in Ashes live game but the old Cleric could take on 5 people vs 1 and still won in A1. Now imagine each class in a group and all players are good PvPers. Not static PvPers, mobile PvPers. Not just an 8 man group but a raid group. We can crack much bigger targets when we want and we do. There will be situations where it is even required but I can't go into specifics. I have the guild to honour.
Edit: I wish you'd stop editing when I'm doing my responses.
So, you want reward equal to the challenge. The challenge is the hardest PvE in the game and you want gear equal to the challenge. That means BiS or close to it. Unique Legendaries at the best of it. You basically want a shot at the same loot that contested dungeons and world bosses drop. (Not sure if world bosses will be removed from contestation like we wish at this time). I'm not trying to deflect. I'm trying to highlight the folly of the situation.
Rarity is in itself a part of content challenge. An encounter that only spawns once a week on a server is inherently much harder than an encounter that all guilds can access via an instance.
This is a simple factor of open world games. I didn't say that it is always the case, I said it is almost always the case.
Yes, there are times when a smaller number can beat a larger number, but they are rare. The number of times a larger number can beat a smaller number are so common that individual situations where this happens don't stand out at all because it's just normal.
From a statistical perspective, more people win PvP than lose.
Here's the quote I refer to. Also, when I said remove World Bosses from contestation I meant the corruption system, my bad. You can flip and detract as much as you want. I've killed many bosses that spawn once a month. It was a 12 month quest to kill all 12. Were these bosses harder than t7 raids? No they were not. They weren't even harder than t5 raids. However, you refer to AA and EQ which is fair enough. However, not all MMOs and functions are like AA and EQ. A lot has been expanded on from EQ in later MMOs. Rarity is not a mark of challenge at all. Some rare mobs will be more challenging than others. Depends on who is killing said mobs, whether there's contestation and whether there's more than one mob at a time.
Furthermore, I've fought outnumbered in PvP in almost all MMOs I have played (Except in the numerous Arenas). It is not true that more numbers win almost always. If that was true there'd be no resistance, no smaller guilds, no pro guilds, no PvX Guilds. There would just be Mega Guilds.
Yes, and as we have discussed in the past, an encounter that you can pull in order to learn dozens or hundreds of times is inherently less of a challenge (even if a more difficult encounter) than an encounter you can only pull two or three times due to it being open world.
There is nothing inconsistent here, nor am I saying I want the best gear on instanced content.
The only thing really on display here (as far as I can see) is you neither remembering previous discussions nor understanding PvE challenge.
I haven't forgotten the past conversations though I am in deep detachment. Trust me when I say I'm scared from the all nighter we had years ago so I try not to argue with you because we are both able to go all night. The issue was you made the quote in reference to Instanced Dungeons - Not open world bosses. Challenge is subjective, you can enter a dungeon at level 10 (hope there's a level 10 dungeon) and die a lot learning the class and the composition of the dynamic dungeon countless times. Same applies to the top end or the single digit dungeons. However, the challenge in single digit dungeons is keeping people motivation, supplied, repaired, patient, focussed and all the same aspects as for open world bosses. Mechanics are mechanics and once mechanics are discovered the challenge is much reduced. Its why the pathfinders always have a rough time but the pathfinders write the mechanics for others to follow. Even Method explains how to do mechanics for the less able. My point is, Method will learn dungeons naked.
However, the amount of challenge reduction from understanding a mechanic is far less than the reduction gained from simply gaining a few levels - which is why most actual challenge in regards to content happens at the level cap.
The comment I made was that content should provide reward commensurate to its challenge.
You are the one that took that to be me wanting the best gear in the game from instanced content despite previous discussions where I have said that is not what I want, and explained my reasoning.
Yes, I understand your point but I don't want gear to drop at all. Its a different matter entirely if we discuss resources - and in such a circumstance, I would hope it would be the best resources possible so you could repair your gear and craft your BiS. However, I still do not want whole gear to be dropped by the single digit instances because gear does not drop in PvP unless you're corrupted so its got no risk associated with it. Just the pain of acquisition.
Dropping finished items vs components is a different discussion to dropping cosmetics.
I requested Cosmetics from the achievements. Not sure if it was in this thread or not though. However, you'd still get cosmetics from the achievements if I had my way. Resources on the other hand can transfer from player to player through an ambush outside an instance.
It may be less contest, but there is still a contest to be had should someone take them up on it.
However, as a reminder for you, this was your original comment in this thread that I took issue with Now, if you want to go back on that and say mats are fine, cool.
No I don't want schematic materials, only resources to craft gear. I think the schematics should come from elsewhere otherwise you'll have a monopoly again. I haven't heard schematic materials can be dropped in PvP, only resources. By schematic materials I mean the blueprints for the professions. Don't forgot, you won't be in the instances alone, I will also aim to be in the single digits so I'm not trying to be harsh to you just fair to us both.
Again, blueprints vs materials dropping is a different discussion.
The schematic materials can drop from bosses (Blueprints). I don't think they can drop from players. So, only things that can drop from players (I call them resources because I don't know exactly what will drop but it wont be materials because I think you have to collect cotton and silk elsewhere). Thus, I still don't want gear or mats to drop in the single digit instances - just Mounts, Resources and Costumes for the achievements. I suppose we'll get some sort of Hides but the leather material would be made outside the instance by the leather workers I assume.
i dont think there is a right or wrong answer for what type of rewards you should get from the most difficult content. it just depends on the game and other systems as well.