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What role should instanced dungeons play in AoC?
George_Black
Member, Intrepid Pack
I would be fine with 0 instanced dungeons in AoC, but since I have played a few mmos with the usual gear treadmill content trap, I must admit that the first time you run any dungeon, with it's structured gameplay and lore, it is fun.
Repeating it over and over for the perfect gear piece? It's not fun nor it is challenging. It's isolating you away from the world with a group of random people that you don't even talk to.
Doing the dungeon again and again to achieve a title? No, I am not insane, but we can get back to that "content" in a bit.
So what should be the role of instanced dungeons in AoC, a true mmo in which players can interact with each other unrestricted (within the limits of the corruption system)? Why should the devs devote time creating those mini games/co-op stages?
Instanced dungeons are the perfect place to insert the lore of the mmo in action. They are areas in which the Devs can show their creativity and people have a chance to feel like they lived through a scenario as the main characters.
The rewards of instanced dungeons should be given in such a way that players can't hide from the open world. One way of doing this I first encountered in Tera Online, in which dungeon bosses would award crafting material which could only be obtained by completing the (hard mode) dungeon, but were part of a craft that required 90% open world gameplay, which was exposed to PvP risks. And as we know, IS has confirmed that this will be the case anyway.
Ok, what else? Because 20% of the content might seem like a minority number, but it is in fact a large amount of gameplay, and not even one instanced dungeon should be optional, or else it's pointless.
Another thing that can be tied to instanced dungeons as rewards for completing the challenge, but in a way that doesn't protect people from the intended design of AoCs owpvp, could be character milestones, whether:
archetype
class
life-skill
weapon boost
active ability
Dungeons should be a good way for players to unlock parts of their overall power, in addition to open world activities. This form of reward doesn't require repetition of the same old same old dungeon runs. It's once and done. You as a player accomplished something hard, got a curated experience, a bit more dramatic, a bit more choreographed and now you can take this newfound strength and apply it to the rest of the game.
The next reward does not require repetition in a similar way to the above. In most mmos, you run a dungeon you get a mace with a critical bonus when you wanted a dagger with a critical bonus, or you get a bow with magical bonuses why you try to farm for a staff. Eh, the example might be extreme, but the fact is that recent mmos claim that dungeons treadmills are gameplay content. BS. They are boring, frustrating time wasting experiences.
What if some dungeons, once cleared, provided you with a full set schematic that you the player now have to use in combination with open world materials (and open world risks and conflicts) ? The gear design could be thematic to the dungeon, maybe a pirates cove.
The schematics from certain dungeons could also be used to create specific climate related gear. A frosty dungeon could provide solutions for terrains in Vera in which cold weather is a problem. Or the heat of deserts could be overcome by claiming the rewards of a certain dungeon.
Stuff like that can be introduced at low level and be used from all players for the rest of the experience in AoC (if the choose to venture in desert areas).
Imo, AoC should also do away with the hard mode, legendary mode and all that nonsense. Make them challenging, spread them out for all levels, and the people that put the appropriate effort to train their group/guild members, or friends the made out in the open world, should clear them and get the rewards that are applicable and crafted in combination with the rest of the game.
Now what about these people that like doing the same content over and over and over and over again?
Well for them AoC can offer title rewards for speed, no death, usage or not of mechanics, and other such performance acknowledgments. If people think that it is worth to do the same sterilized content and show off how well they can do it, let them. Such rewards won't have any gameplay impact on the world, they don't go against the intended design of AoC, but can still provide a certain level of recognition from the player base to those that have gone above and beyond in dealing with such encounters.
*One final note. Some mmos have found the balance to reward multiple classes with a single dungeon, thus avoiding people neglecting to clear dungeons because the rewards don't fit the main classes.
Other mmos are well made when it comes to guild/group gameplay that players will band together to produce a reward for their guild members because they count on each others strength.
This is not the case in solo mmos like ESO. Many dungeons are ignored because people don't NEED to care for their guild members, and everybody DPS is just farming a certain dungeon, whilst tanks and healers may have to beg or try PUGs to get their gear.
**One more thing. Solo trials are bad for mmos. If everybody starts going off on their own, locked up in an instance to get their personal reward, this will hurt groups and guilds, as well as the open world population and social aspect of the game.
Repeating it over and over for the perfect gear piece? It's not fun nor it is challenging. It's isolating you away from the world with a group of random people that you don't even talk to.
Doing the dungeon again and again to achieve a title? No, I am not insane, but we can get back to that "content" in a bit.
So what should be the role of instanced dungeons in AoC, a true mmo in which players can interact with each other unrestricted (within the limits of the corruption system)? Why should the devs devote time creating those mini games/co-op stages?
Instanced dungeons are the perfect place to insert the lore of the mmo in action. They are areas in which the Devs can show their creativity and people have a chance to feel like they lived through a scenario as the main characters.
The rewards of instanced dungeons should be given in such a way that players can't hide from the open world. One way of doing this I first encountered in Tera Online, in which dungeon bosses would award crafting material which could only be obtained by completing the (hard mode) dungeon, but were part of a craft that required 90% open world gameplay, which was exposed to PvP risks. And as we know, IS has confirmed that this will be the case anyway.
Ok, what else? Because 20% of the content might seem like a minority number, but it is in fact a large amount of gameplay, and not even one instanced dungeon should be optional, or else it's pointless.
Another thing that can be tied to instanced dungeons as rewards for completing the challenge, but in a way that doesn't protect people from the intended design of AoCs owpvp, could be character milestones, whether:
archetype
class
life-skill
weapon boost
active ability
Dungeons should be a good way for players to unlock parts of their overall power, in addition to open world activities. This form of reward doesn't require repetition of the same old same old dungeon runs. It's once and done. You as a player accomplished something hard, got a curated experience, a bit more dramatic, a bit more choreographed and now you can take this newfound strength and apply it to the rest of the game.
The next reward does not require repetition in a similar way to the above. In most mmos, you run a dungeon you get a mace with a critical bonus when you wanted a dagger with a critical bonus, or you get a bow with magical bonuses why you try to farm for a staff. Eh, the example might be extreme, but the fact is that recent mmos claim that dungeons treadmills are gameplay content. BS. They are boring, frustrating time wasting experiences.
What if some dungeons, once cleared, provided you with a full set schematic that you the player now have to use in combination with open world materials (and open world risks and conflicts) ? The gear design could be thematic to the dungeon, maybe a pirates cove.
The schematics from certain dungeons could also be used to create specific climate related gear. A frosty dungeon could provide solutions for terrains in Vera in which cold weather is a problem. Or the heat of deserts could be overcome by claiming the rewards of a certain dungeon.
Stuff like that can be introduced at low level and be used from all players for the rest of the experience in AoC (if the choose to venture in desert areas).
Imo, AoC should also do away with the hard mode, legendary mode and all that nonsense. Make them challenging, spread them out for all levels, and the people that put the appropriate effort to train their group/guild members, or friends the made out in the open world, should clear them and get the rewards that are applicable and crafted in combination with the rest of the game.
Now what about these people that like doing the same content over and over and over and over again?
Well for them AoC can offer title rewards for speed, no death, usage or not of mechanics, and other such performance acknowledgments. If people think that it is worth to do the same sterilized content and show off how well they can do it, let them. Such rewards won't have any gameplay impact on the world, they don't go against the intended design of AoC, but can still provide a certain level of recognition from the player base to those that have gone above and beyond in dealing with such encounters.
*One final note. Some mmos have found the balance to reward multiple classes with a single dungeon, thus avoiding people neglecting to clear dungeons because the rewards don't fit the main classes.
Other mmos are well made when it comes to guild/group gameplay that players will band together to produce a reward for their guild members because they count on each others strength.
This is not the case in solo mmos like ESO. Many dungeons are ignored because people don't NEED to care for their guild members, and everybody DPS is just farming a certain dungeon, whilst tanks and healers may have to beg or try PUGs to get their gear.
**One more thing. Solo trials are bad for mmos. If everybody starts going off on their own, locked up in an instance to get their personal reward, this will hurt groups and guilds, as well as the open world population and social aspect of the game.
2
Comments
To Valheim with them!
As you say in above, it is fun.
Repeating it many times isn't necessarily fun, but doing it a few times absolutely is fun.
This in itself is enough of a reason to say that instanced PvE content should exist in Ashes, if it is done right.
The key there is obviously doing it right, because there are negative aspects to it if it is not done right.
The big negative aspect in a game like Ashes is that if it is done wrong, people will use instances to hide from PvP. The next big negative if it is done wrong is people will get tired of running the same content over and over.
I feel it needs to be pointed out that these above two negative aspects are only possible if instanced content is implemented poorly, so the fact that they can exist should not mean instanced PvE content should not exist - it just means it should be done right.
There are three main mechanics that I would implement to combat the above two potential negative aspects on instanes.
The first is a lockout timer. I would say something like 2 days for a single group instance, and 6 days for a raid instance.
This does a few things. It means the drop rates for each kill in the instance can be higher than if this were not in place (though not as high as a world boss with a similar spawn timer). More importantly, it means players aren't really able to burn out on the content - or at least not as easily.
The second thing I would do is make sure that there isn't a "safe" location at the entrance to the instance. Make it so players have no more than 30 seconds from entering the instance until they will be attacked.
What this will do (in conjunction with the lockout timer) is it will prevent players using instances as a means of hiding from PvP. You aren't generally going to run in to an instance and burn your lockout just to save yourself 30 seconds before you die.
The third thing I would do is put a timer on instances. If players are still in the instance when the timer runs out, they are booted back to the entrance - obviously with the lockout timer in place.
The only other major argument against instanced content I have seen in relation to Ashes is that it would mean people would just avoid the open world content in the game. Simply make sure that all instanced entrances are at the bottom (or, at least in the last half) of a dungeon. This would then require players participate in the open world game in order to even have a chance of participating in instanced PvE content.
A few more points I want to go over in your post.
And In effect, these two notions are mutually exclusive - or at least should be.
If you have an instance that is required for character progression, offers nothing else, and it isn't solo, it will simply function as a means to split the playerbase.
Seen it many times.
Imagine you have a guild. You get to the point in the game where an instance like this is required for progression. Your guild members will be more than keen to get it done for themselves, and may even be happy to assist a few others in the guild. However, by the time you get everyone in the guild through this instance, everyone is sick of running content that they were only able to benefit from it once.
At the point where you have everyone in your guild through this instance, it is highly likely (as in, almost inevitable) that you would then slap on a new requirement for new recruits that they have already completed this instance.
Thus, a population split is formed.
On the other hand, drop in a few worthwhile items (or components for items) on to loot tables, and you won't have any of this happening.
I would agree with you if your assertion was that you consider solo instances to be detrimental to an MMORPG as a whole. Agreed.
This can work well in a game where instanced content is the focus, but even though such content should exist in Ashes, it is unlikely to ever be the focus.
My assumption is and has always been that you would get a component to craft an item, rather than the item.
Rather than a dungeon having a loot table of one of every item type in the game, there should be perhaps 5 or 6 items in total, and each of these can be crafted to make any item type in the game (or used to alter the results of crafting any other item in the game, what ever).
That said, you shouldn't assume that if the component you want drops, you will get it. In a group of 8 players, if every component can be crafted in to many different types of items, every player will want every item. In a pick up group, every player will always claim they want every item, even if just to sell.
The expectation should be that most players will run a given instance about 12 times, and with the above lockouts in place, they won't be happening in quick succession.
RNG is bad in dungeons. It makes them treadmills. I am against such rewards. I have given examples of expected rewards so that people dont have to repeat the content out of frustration.
The reward should be one, and known before the attempt.
People will run a dungeon a few times in order to help guild members and friends. Running a dungeon for a chance in looting what you need is a failed design.
Any form of timer or points (AA labour) breeds fomo and compulsion. You don't need timers if you don't have RNG rewards for instanced dungeons.
A few points for you.
ESO content that you seem to be basing your ideas off of was not what any MMO player wanting instanced content considers instanced content.
That is quest content.
There is a difference. Actually, this demonstrably successful. As a counter to your point, MMORPG's based on open world PvP is a failed game design (in the west, at least, it is not a failed design in Korea).
To back my point up, I'll point to WoW. As a backup I'll go to both the FF and EQ series.
Which game are you going to point to as a counter? L2? SWG? Tera? Wildstar? EVE? Archeage? Crowfall?
You having an opinion of not liking a thing does not mean that thing has failed. It just means you don't like it. Claiming something is a failed design in a genre when the most successful product in said genre is based around that design is just, well... think for a second how that makes you look.
Ask yourself why anyone would take you seriously when you are saying the thing that the most successful MMO ever has always been based on is a failed design.
I know you just made a poor choice in the words you used - chose better next time.
I would also prefer to have ways to level up without going through story dungeons at all, even if those stories might be different for each class and race.
The reason is that I do not want to enter instances alone.
If those instances require a party, then I also don't like them because:
- months after launch it will be more difficult to find players.
- some players might indeed done the story before and have no patience when somebody watches cutscenes
- if the story is performed by NPCs in the 3d environment, instead of a cutscene, then I cannot skip. I have to wait and watch them walking and taking with eachother
So what I would prefer is to have the leveling integrated into the open world as part of whatever way of leveling I choose. And that should be my story. And cutscenes to be presented in nodes when I get back to NPCs, and to also be re-viewable at later time, with subtitles in different languages.
Agree completely.
The thing is, this kind of this is diametrically opposed to what Ashes is.
While Ashes is trying to be a themebox or sandbar or what ever, it is absolutely not trying to be a themepark MMO.
A themepark MMO is not defined by having or not having instances, but rather by the game telling players what to do.
Having instances that exist purely for story/character progression reasons and are supposed to just be run once is literally as themepark as MMO content can possibly get.
In fact, EQ2 (a themepark MMO) had events with a traveling carnival type thing (a themelark, of sorts). Even that themepark content within a themepark game was less of a themepark than character progression instances.
On the other hand, a game telling players "here's some overland content, some dungeons, some instances and some naval content. These all have different rules around d PvP, go out and do the ones you want to do", that is literally as sandbox as an MMO can get - present players with all the options and let them decide.
Can also be theoretical, where someone or something summons some 'illusion' or 'manifestation' you fight, to prove that you could handle the open world version, then get a pop item for that open world version, allowing you to choose when to engage it and therefore 'semi-instance' that content, so the devs can make it harder too.
With this, there's no reason to run it multiple times for economic reasons without then also exposing yourself to the rest of Ashes, especially if the pop item rewarded is limited to being used only once every few whatever, on the server.
And ofc, this can be where they put all that story that you probably need to be able to experience uninterrupted without someone stabbing you for fun.
I guess he was more talking about the concept of what used to stand for mmorpg's before something casual like WoW Vanilla in general. Pop music is the most successful music, doesn't mean it's best, it works perfectly for masses and brainless (sorry for the words, it's not an insult) people who don't care for the design of music too much and is easily consumable. Capitalism is successful, doesn't mean it's a good design. Ofc, if your moral compass stands for "poor gets poorer, rich get richer" then it's understandable. Religion is successful, doesn't mean it's a good design.
Never use somethings' popularity or success to justify weather it's "good" or "bad".
the alternative is communism (unless you wanna go back to feudalism or something else), where everybody is equal..equally poor and equally starving to death. i dont see americans moving to venezuela to live in communism xD
regarding music. pop isnt bad. i dont like it but it isnt bad. it is just simple.
you could always argue that any music that isnt classical or romantic is bad. btw classical was the "pop" music back then
Well that's the whole point Depraved. Never said that capitalism is bad (well..at least for most white western people) or that pop music is bad in general. As you said "it is just simple", easily consumable, no need for too much investment. Exactly, like wow vanilla when it was released. Now, the thing is, I'm just standing more with the people in community who are after the older and more raw mmorpg design. And again, nor good or bad, just a preference.
p.s thank you for your answer
ok i see what u mean
arent asians doing better in the west than whites?
my friend is black. he went from latin america to usa to live there (he lives in florida). he is a bus driver and he owns a house and a car. im white and i dont own a house. id say he is doing pretty well, probably better than me.
I would be fine if they released some very very hard instanced raids for people that want that challenge and it rewards achievements/titles/cosmetics if you complete it, but yeah, never any sort of gear or materials.
No one said it is bad design - the statement was failed design.
Popularity or success absolutely can be used to determine if something is a failed design or not. If it is successful, by definition the design didn't fail.
Without going too much in to depth, the actual best is a mixture of both - which is something both the US and China share.
Both countries have aspects that are capitalist (Chinas economy as a whole is mostly capitalist), both have aspects that are socialist (centrally funded police and military - a purely capitalist nation would privatize these completely).
As with almost everything in life, the trick is to realize it isn't "this" or "that" in entirety, but rather a mix of both that is best.
I think its fine if they provide the base line lvl 50 gear, this will be the worst max level gear but it allows newly lvl 50 people to get a baseline set without reliant on crafters or potential risk of PK from max geared players>
but other than that i dont realy want to see much instanced content, I prefer bosses and thing to be open world including dungeon bosses where you can be contested for it, now you could be locked in a room where attackers need to break the door or something down to get in to contest you thats fine it just allows people engaged on the boss some time to react and that about it.
- it hurts crafters because it makes them less necessary
- it hurts the economy because the mats for the gear are not produced, bought and sold
Dont get me wrong it definetly not ideal instances would be better served for the leveling experience if anything but i dont think it terrible if it can give the worst possible lvl 50 gear all crafted gear would be better so player would want to go for that but if for some reason somone is flatbroke fallen on hard time or what not they still have a way to progress while they get the money to purchase gear from crafters if they absolutly do not want to touch any kinda of harvesting/crafting mechanic themself (some people just want to do combat and nothing else) dunno why they but some just do.
Everything else should be better though than anything drops in any kind of instanced content however in today term of quality consider it as like green quality lvl 50 loot where anything crafted or obtained out of instyanced is rare, purple or legendary in quality. no one want to be running around in green shit if they can help it but sometime its the only way at times
If you can get "free" lvl50 gear by just doing an instance - you just need to get to lvl 50 and do that instance. And unless the game requires you to get best previous lvl of gear to clear the instance - people will just rush lvl50 and do the instance to jump several stages of gear progress.
And this then brings the classic question of "how wide should the gear scaling be". If best pieces of the previous lvl of gear are so weaker than the base lvl50 stuff, that you HAVE to do the instance - we have a pretty wide scaling and we come back to the discussion of what that implies for pvp and character power.
And if that gear is not weaker than lvl50 stuff, then going through the instance (which I would assume would be tied to the story) would just give you a pointless gear set that will be bound to you so your only option is to either destroy it or let it dust and take up space in your storage.
My solution to this "issue", in case Intrepid decide to scale gear tighter than that, would be to have alternative rewards for instances. It could be enchantment scrolls or some other relatively valuable consumable (obviously still bound to the player), so that the people who don't need that useless gear can still do the instance w/o feeling bad that they don't get anything of value out of it (outside of experiencing the story of course).
I know this because this is how L2's servers worked on one of the updates that gave out semi-strong weapons through a boss-based quest. Now, obviously the pace in Ashes would be slower, but people would definitely do their best to simply reach lvl50 rather than fully enjoy the entire gearing cycle before it.
They should not be places where you can grind xp, gear and materials. Any important drops should be tied to the quest.
I think they should repeatable only if you're helping someone do the quest, which will complete while still inside, so you can't cheese the system by not finishing it and just keep rerunning it.
With that said, I think people helping others do the dungeon should get rewarded. Possibly through that mentor program they have planned, or some other reward system where players get something nice for helping others. I would definitely prefer to see 20 players fighting over getting into the group to run someone through a story dungeon, than I would like to see the poor sod asking for help for 2 days without help, because no one can be bothered. So there is a balance to be struck there, and a reward structure that needs to be set up in a specific way.
To me, it's really simple. Create content, put it in your game, let players decide what they want to do. There shouldn't really be more to the discussion than that.
If players either decide to all do one type of content or not do one type of content, you got something wrong in development.
Until we see the game nothing is confirmed.
Enjoy the Tetris.
all gear after the early levels should come from crafting and mats from open world content
i dont get the tetris inventory thing. are we back to diablo 1-2? xD