trust me none if play's tank and spank games anymore. have you seen any boss fight in modern games? its just huge cleaves and coordinated movements. every body is taking potential hits.
even if that was true then you got a silly imortal tank that can yolo threw any pvp fight util he get targeted last.
yall keep talking strategy but this aint it.
oh and just bringing more dd to the pvp is super strategic? hey lets all click this person and press "1" at the same time and he dies. thats really more strategic than bringing a healer? xDDDD
all classes should be equally broken in their own way, its not that hard to make any combination of classes viable. its against the player's enjoyment to be forced into meta right away. its promotes lazy repetitive scenarios. no room for weird sett ups that require smarter choices rather than town hall preperation. its ok if fights look messy, the fun is figuring things out.
We know that players will work together to get combos off that may seem broken in their own way. Combos such as bleed or daze from one player into effects that increase or multiply based on bleed or daze from another player may look really good. Again, we have to test and provide feedback so that it feels right. And hopefully there will be many different ways that players can combo off each other, we will have to wait and see.
simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.
love you, cant wait for the alpha.
NW is a terrible example since healing in that game was broken and thrown in without any actual design thought to the point you couldn't kill someone 1v5.
To help with the issue there needs to be ways to use skills and build your character co counter the healing. IE healing reduction, cc and interrupts. So the scales becomes a bit more balanced and isn't healer means a automatic win.
Group role is a part of positioning and strategy that goes way back. If everyone can do everything, there is less need to work together. You want a co-operative multiplayer game to incentivize teamwork. You want people to want to play with you and you want to bring a unique aspect to the greater whole and be recognized when you do well. If everyone is a swiss army knife of a character, then no one is special, and you don't really need anyone else for a specific reason. Having group tactics be important requires constraints on each individual to have faults in exchange for power in a specific scenario. This is what classes classically provide inherently from their class fantasy. Heavier armor, stronger magic, range and evasion all have their use cases. 5e Dungeon's and dragons suffers from multiclassing being able to cover all of your characters weak spots and can leave party members feeling overshadowed. With the Class/Subclass being able to move your place in the trinity and blur the lines, along with everyone being able to use every weapon and armor, party members are likely stepping on each other's toes a bit in ashes, but your primary does have unique things (like the rogue finding secret doors) that you probably won't be able to multiclass into. If you think healing is OP then go secondary cleric and heal yourself and (potentially) your allies while doing your main role.
simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.
love you, cant wait for the alpha.
You are right that the current design would make healers essentially mandatory for PvP from 3v3 up.
You are wrong, however, in assuming this is an issue.
Healers tend to be overtuned in pvp in most games cause they focus on PvE mobs do twice or more dmg than players do a hit your healer then need to heal twice as much to compensate for the pve side which intern on the pvp side healers become over tuned.
Take new world and WoW for example where healer often take 3+ players to out dmg there heal so they basicly become tanks. Only way to kill them tend to be CC lock them so they cant heal and if they get one spell off they full heal.
they are plenty of popular game with barely any healing. using the space around you to find opportunities is way more fun than clumping up until you out heal all the burst and then counter push.
try and be creative, mentioning you're last wow clone is not an argument.
they are plenty of popular game with barely any healing. using the space around you to find opportunities is way more fun than clumping up until you out heal all the burst and then counter push.
try and be creative, mentioning you're last wow clone is not an argument.
I remember one of the last wow clones i played being rift and i could solo DPs and tanks as a healer during leveling phase being 30 levels lower than them xD.
You need a give and take in MMO pvp. burst damage/healing cds, interupts, heal blocks, cleanses, hard ccs, etc need to be accessible to a wide variety of classes in a wide variety of ways. They should be different enough to make some stronger and weaker to avoid homogenization, but not so exclusive that class x is mandatory.
Honestly guild wars 2 did healing right... it was more of a side thing every class could do for themselves except water elementalists which could heal a bit but they weren't game breaking. Usually every class has one heal with a long cd and MAYBE some abilities that restore some of their health.
If having a healer is a make it or break it deal and they can't be killed then the balance was done improperly. I imagine a bard will likely be the bane of healers with debuffs and things of the such.
Honestly guild wars 2 did healing right... it was more of a side thing every class could do for themselves except water elementalists which could heal a bit but they weren't game breaking. Usually every class has one heal with a long cd and MAYBE some abilities that restore some of their health.
If having a healer is a make it or break it deal and they can't be killed then the balance was done improperly. I imagine a bard will likely be the bane of healers with debuffs and things of the such.
i think gw did healing wrong. basically fight, then run away, hide, heal then try to fight again until you or the other dude get a lucky crit or something.
its almost like running away, hiding, using a potion and waiting for cd then back in. fights turn into whoever hides the most / has more potions.
they are plenty of popular game with barely any healing. using the space around you to find opportunities is way more fun than clumping up until you out heal all the burst and then counter push.
try and be creative, mentioning you're last wow clone is not an argument.
well its a targetted game with the holy trinity. you arent going to change that, no one will at this point (probably not even steven unless they wanna start all over).
not having healers means you just add more dps. how are u gonna survive when 8 dps just target you and hit f1 then ur either dead or low hp...now all u can do is move back and hide then use potions or for a few mins depending on cd? how is that more fun or a better strategy.
everyone plays archers, whoever clicks and press f1 first wins. this isnt an action combat game where you can dodge other people.
or the alternative could be like ragnarok, where the healer wont even put heal on his bar cuz it does nothing in pvp lol. only thing keeping people alive is spamming potions..like really really spamming (no cd on potions in ro). then healing becomes useless. why destroy a class?
make some friends and get a healer, this isnt a solo game
the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?
the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?
Hard to think about the core issues with combat when the classes arent even fleshed out yet, it'll be during A2 is when balance passes will be made.
Honestly guild wars 2 did healing right... it was more of a side thing every class could do for themselves except water elementalists which could heal a bit but they weren't game breaking. Usually every class has one heal with a long cd and MAYBE some abilities that restore some of their health.
If having a healer is a make it or break it deal and they can't be killed then the balance was done improperly. I imagine a bard will likely be the bane of healers with debuffs and things of the such.
i think gw did healing wrong. basically fight, then run away, hide, heal then try to fight again until you or the other dude get a lucky crit or something.
its almost like running away, hiding, using a potion and waiting for cd then back in. fights turn into whoever hides the most / has more potions.
that was so far from my experience. Only the thief class with their infinite invisibility could really pull that off , and yes that was annoying but its why i have a huge lack of respect for stealthies in any game
the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?
no, you are the one lacking vision and creativity. you are saying "this is a problem, and the only solution is this". there are multiple solutions to one problem, and seeing them is creativity.
you are only thinking how you want the game to be, and basically it sounds like you want a solo mmorpg, where you can do everything on your own in pvp, when the game is based around grouping, therefore, the solution should incentivize grouping...not soloing and playing whatever, even though sometimes it can be a bit annoying waiting for someone to log in or join your party so you can go out and do stuff, but there are ways to fix that withotu having to remove the requirement for a healer or supports for party stuff.
giving players out of combat regen...see this is another point you make that makes it seem that you want a solo mmorpg. ive played those and combat is quite boring actually. every fight turns into abusing los to heal back to full, then trying again until someone runs out of potions, or someone makes a huge mistake. or cc run away heal, then try again. it makes combat uninteresting and not engaging, and it doesnt matter what you do, or your skills, if your mistakes are forgiven by escaping and healing. no one gonna die lol. imagine you attack someone then you realize you have no chance of winning, you run away, heal then turn green again. the other person most likely wont pk you. mistakes forgiven. all risk gone.
and no, i dont mean pressing w (see you look like you come from wow or something lol) but at some point you have to attack, unles you dont. the options are attack and die to the other party targetting you because they just have a bunch of dps, no support, no strategy (which is what you are suggesting but you cant se it, maybe you lack vision or havent played many mmorpg, which is fine), or you know that is gonna happen and then dont attack and just stay behind waiting for an opportunity that will never come (or make people unkillable through gear or potion spamming which is probably worse lol).
a lot of people wanna play support, and they want their classes to be useful in pvp as well, not just pve. why play healer if your heals are pointless in pvp? but thats what you arent seeing and then you say its other people fault for not agreeing with you.
the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?
no, you are the one lacking vision and creativity. you are saying "this is a problem, and the only solution is this". there are multiple solutions to one problem, and seeing them is creativity.
you are only thinking how you want the game to be, and basically it sounds like you want a solo mmorpg, where you can do everything on your own in pvp, when the game is based around grouping, therefore, the solution should incentivize grouping...not soloing and playing whatever, even though sometimes it can be a bit annoying waiting for someone to log in or join your party so you can go out and do stuff, but there are ways to fix that withotu having to remove the requirement for a healer or supports for party stuff.
giving players out of combat regen...see this is another point you make that makes it seem that you want a solo mmorpg. ive played those and combat is quite boring actually. every fight turns into abusing los to heal back to full, then trying again until someone runs out of potions, or someone makes a huge mistake. or cc run away heal, then try again. it makes combat uninteresting and not engaging, and it doesnt matter what you do, or your skills, if your mistakes are forgiven by escaping and healing. no one gonna die lol. imagine you attack someone then you realize you have no chance of winning, you run away, heal then turn green again. the other person most likely wont pk you. mistakes forgiven. all risk gone.
and no, i dont mean pressing w (see you look like you come from wow or something lol) but at some point you have to attack, unles you dont. the options are attack and die to the other party targetting you because they just have a bunch of dps, no support, no strategy (which is what you are suggesting but you cant se it, maybe you lack vision or havent played many mmorpg, which is fine), or you know that is gonna happen and then dont attack and just stay behind waiting for an opportunity that will never come (or make people unkillable through gear or potion spamming which is probably worse lol).
a lot of people wanna play support, and they want their classes to be useful in pvp as well, not just pve. why play healer if your heals are pointless in pvp? but thats what you arent seeing and then you say its other people fault for not agreeing with you.
It’s not even a big deal really. Even if they give classes in combat recoup/rejuv (which is fine), they still won’t be near the combat effectiveness as healing.
And there is going to be anti-healing and healing reduction, there’s really no worries to be had.
It seems to me the OP only thinks there’s only skill in playing a DPS character in PvP, which is just an opinion.
the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?
no, you are the one lacking vision and creativity. you are saying "this is a problem, and the only solution is this". there are multiple solutions to one problem, and seeing them is creativity.
you are only thinking how you want the game to be, and basically it sounds like you want a solo mmorpg, where you can do everything on your own in pvp, when the game is based around grouping, therefore, the solution should incentivize grouping...not soloing and playing whatever, even though sometimes it can be a bit annoying waiting for someone to log in or join your party so you can go out and do stuff, but there are ways to fix that withotu having to remove the requirement for a healer or supports for party stuff.
giving players out of combat regen...see this is another point you make that makes it seem that you want a solo mmorpg. ive played those and combat is quite boring actually. every fight turns into abusing los to heal back to full, then trying again until someone runs out of potions, or someone makes a huge mistake. or cc run away heal, then try again. it makes combat uninteresting and not engaging, and it doesnt matter what you do, or your skills, if your mistakes are forgiven by escaping and healing. no one gonna die lol. imagine you attack someone then you realize you have no chance of winning, you run away, heal then turn green again. the other person most likely wont pk you. mistakes forgiven. all risk gone.
and no, i dont mean pressing w (see you look like you come from wow or something lol) but at some point you have to attack, unles you dont. the options are attack and die to the other party targetting you because they just have a bunch of dps, no support, no strategy (which is what you are suggesting but you cant se it, maybe you lack vision or havent played many mmorpg, which is fine), or you know that is gonna happen and then dont attack and just stay behind waiting for an opportunity that will never come (or make people unkillable through gear or potion spamming which is probably worse lol).
a lot of people wanna play support, and they want their classes to be useful in pvp as well, not just pve. why play healer if your heals are pointless in pvp? but thats what you arent seeing and then you say its other people fault for not agreeing with you.
It’s not even a big deal really. Even if they give classes in combat recoup/rejuv (which is fine), they still won’t be near the combat effectiveness as healing.
And there is going to be anti-healing and healing reduction, there’s really no worries to be had.
It seems to me the OP only thinks there’s only skill in playing a DPS character in PvP, which is just an opinion.
yes, he tells people they lack vision / creativity, yet he is being one dimensional. thats my issue.
to answer you, it might not be a big deal..depending on the game. for example i liked bdo a lot, even though there isnt a dedicated healer, oh and lost ark as well, even tho the bard can kind of heal...but every1 is pretty much a dps in those games, but in a game with a trinity focus, the solution is different.
i agree that if the healer is too op, that can be an issue (but any class being op can be an issue as well), but the cleric needs to be abe to keep 7 people alive. aoc is being balanced aorund having 1 of each class in the party, so i can see how having 2 clerics could be a problem. but the solution isnt to destroy a class, or let everybody else do everything by themselves (trinity game duh).
there are multiple solutions. the healer could be very mana dependant, so you basically need a bard and a summoner helping with mana. you could prevent the heals from stacking. you can adjust the numbers, etc, etc. the best people to find the solution is intrepid, since they know the game and other classes, we havent even played it yet lol.
i think anti healing/ reduction goes more along with aoc design of group play instead of giving regens outside combat to everybody.
edit: also supports are more difficult to play than dps, and you need more game knowledge about other classes anyways
i dont mind the trinity to easily balance a ton of PvE activities , i just dont want my open world PvP to become a PvE raid?
so don't play ashes of creation, this is a game that follows a classic trinity system, I am a PvP player, ever since DaoC, through WoW, Warhammer online, Revelation, Archeage, Tera, and now AoC, what I love the most about PvP in MMOs is comp formation and tactics with tanks doing the engage front line and CCing, healers and buffers on the back being protected and DPS melting down enemies with AoE and flank groups going for the enemy healers,
this is what MMORPG PvP should be and I'm glad that ashes is following that same path, if you don't like it, and want a 1v1 fighting game like BDO where everyone is just a different flavor of assassin, this is not the game
Comments
oh and just bringing more dd to the pvp is super strategic? hey lets all click this person and press "1" at the same time and he dies. thats really more strategic than bringing a healer? xDDDD
We know that players will work together to get combos off that may seem broken in their own way. Combos such as bleed or daze from one player into effects that increase or multiply based on bleed or daze from another player may look really good. Again, we have to test and provide feedback so that it feels right. And hopefully there will be many different ways that players can combo off each other, we will have to wait and see.
NW is a terrible example since healing in that game was broken and thrown in without any actual design thought to the point you couldn't kill someone 1v5.
To help with the issue there needs to be ways to use skills and build your character co counter the healing. IE healing reduction, cc and interrupts. So the scales becomes a bit more balanced and isn't healer means a automatic win.
You are right that the current design would make healers essentially mandatory for PvP from 3v3 up.
You are wrong, however, in assuming this is an issue.
Facepalms in military veteran.
First step: Stop confusing strategy with tactics and vice versa.
Take new world and WoW for example where healer often take 3+ players to out dmg there heal so they basicly become tanks. Only way to kill them tend to be CC lock them so they cant heal and if they get one spell off they full heal.
whats the difference OwO
A strategy is an over arching plan or policy. Where as a tactic is a specific action taken.
That also doesn’t account for the fact you can have strategies within strategies and tactics within them to accomplish set goal/task.
It also differs from the type of org,
A business strategy and a military strategy are very different.
long term vs short terms
goals vs objectives
They usually teach these things in elementary school.
EDIT:
not disagreeing about the strategy vs tactics incase this is misunderstood.
try and be creative, mentioning you're last wow clone is not an argument.
I remember one of the last wow clones i played being rift and i could solo DPs and tanks as a healer during leveling phase being 30 levels lower than them xD.
If having a healer is a make it or break it deal and they can't be killed then the balance was done improperly. I imagine a bard will likely be the bane of healers with debuffs and things of the such.
i think gw did healing wrong. basically fight, then run away, hide, heal then try to fight again until you or the other dude get a lucky crit or something.
its almost like running away, hiding, using a potion and waiting for cd then back in. fights turn into whoever hides the most / has more potions.
well its a targetted game with the holy trinity. you arent going to change that, no one will at this point (probably not even steven unless they wanna start all over).
not having healers means you just add more dps. how are u gonna survive when 8 dps just target you and hit f1 then ur either dead or low hp...now all u can do is move back and hide then use potions or for a few mins depending on cd? how is that more fun or a better strategy.
everyone plays archers, whoever clicks and press f1 first wins. this isnt an action combat game where you can dodge other people.
or the alternative could be like ragnarok, where the healer wont even put heal on his bar cuz it does nothing in pvp lol. only thing keeping people alive is spamming potions..like really really spamming (no cd on potions in ro). then healing becomes useless. why destroy a class?
make some friends and get a healer, this isnt a solo game
Hard to think about the core issues with combat when the classes arent even fleshed out yet, it'll be during A2 is when balance passes will be made.
yes, i was hoping to reach the devs just from the thread title and be done with it. got triggered by the lack of vision people have these days.
that was so far from my experience. Only the thief class with their infinite invisibility could really pull that off , and yes that was annoying but its why i have a huge lack of respect for stealthies in any game
Gotta wait to see who gets what skill first. There will be anti-healing in the game if that's what you're worried about.
no, you are the one lacking vision and creativity. you are saying "this is a problem, and the only solution is this". there are multiple solutions to one problem, and seeing them is creativity.
you are only thinking how you want the game to be, and basically it sounds like you want a solo mmorpg, where you can do everything on your own in pvp, when the game is based around grouping, therefore, the solution should incentivize grouping...not soloing and playing whatever, even though sometimes it can be a bit annoying waiting for someone to log in or join your party so you can go out and do stuff, but there are ways to fix that withotu having to remove the requirement for a healer or supports for party stuff.
giving players out of combat regen...see this is another point you make that makes it seem that you want a solo mmorpg. ive played those and combat is quite boring actually. every fight turns into abusing los to heal back to full, then trying again until someone runs out of potions, or someone makes a huge mistake. or cc run away heal, then try again. it makes combat uninteresting and not engaging, and it doesnt matter what you do, or your skills, if your mistakes are forgiven by escaping and healing. no one gonna die lol. imagine you attack someone then you realize you have no chance of winning, you run away, heal then turn green again. the other person most likely wont pk you. mistakes forgiven. all risk gone.
and no, i dont mean pressing w (see you look like you come from wow or something lol) but at some point you have to attack, unles you dont. the options are attack and die to the other party targetting you because they just have a bunch of dps, no support, no strategy (which is what you are suggesting but you cant se it, maybe you lack vision or havent played many mmorpg, which is fine), or you know that is gonna happen and then dont attack and just stay behind waiting for an opportunity that will never come (or make people unkillable through gear or potion spamming which is probably worse lol).
a lot of people wanna play support, and they want their classes to be useful in pvp as well, not just pve. why play healer if your heals are pointless in pvp? but thats what you arent seeing and then you say its other people fault for not agreeing with you.
It’s not even a big deal really. Even if they give classes in combat recoup/rejuv (which is fine), they still won’t be near the combat effectiveness as healing.
And there is going to be anti-healing and healing reduction, there’s really no worries to be had.
It seems to me the OP only thinks there’s only skill in playing a DPS character in PvP, which is just an opinion.
yes, he tells people they lack vision / creativity, yet he is being one dimensional. thats my issue.
to answer you, it might not be a big deal..depending on the game. for example i liked bdo a lot, even though there isnt a dedicated healer, oh and lost ark as well, even tho the bard can kind of heal...but every1 is pretty much a dps in those games, but in a game with a trinity focus, the solution is different.
i agree that if the healer is too op, that can be an issue (but any class being op can be an issue as well), but the cleric needs to be abe to keep 7 people alive. aoc is being balanced aorund having 1 of each class in the party, so i can see how having 2 clerics could be a problem. but the solution isnt to destroy a class, or let everybody else do everything by themselves (trinity game duh).
there are multiple solutions. the healer could be very mana dependant, so you basically need a bard and a summoner helping with mana. you could prevent the heals from stacking. you can adjust the numbers, etc, etc. the best people to find the solution is intrepid, since they know the game and other classes, we havent even played it yet lol.
i think anti healing/ reduction goes more along with aoc design of group play instead of giving regens outside combat to everybody.
edit: also supports are more difficult to play than dps, and you need more game knowledge about other classes anyways
I get the feeling that's going to be the main problem for the OP.
find one counter argument in stead of attacking someone's character.
linking my comment from the tank thread here,