Warning from my previous experiences facing healers balanced around PvE.

P0GG0

simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.

love you, cant wait for the alpha.

Depraved

why is that an issue?
support +dd >> 2 dd
nothing wrong with that.

P0GG0

because their is one healer class and 7 non healers. do the maths and see how many combination of classes would rather sit in town than get farmed. this is easily fixable by balancing healing differently in pvp and pve. a healer is not supposed to heal the final boss of a 30 man raid AND a grp m8 for the same amount?

daveywavey

Up to now, they've seemed to want mixed groups of players running content together. If your group isn't mixed enough, then go find the classes you're missing.

P0GG0

that's anti fun, i want 4 people to beat 4 lesser player by being better rather than who has the perfect composition. i'm so tired of sitting in town waiting for that holy trinity. Do it for pve no problem but dont ruin my pvp experience by being intellectually lazy. with that mindset no wonder people just wait for the bigger zerg and actualy never fight.

Kilion

The "solution" or partial workaround that Intrepid offers to groups without healers for whatever reason is augmentation. Augment your primary archetype with a cleric to access healing effects on your dmg oriented abilities.
Of course you won't become a full heal character, but that was never the intent.

Archetypes in Ashes become impactful and unique by offering upsides other archetypes can not offer at all or remotely to the level that specific archetype can. Going without a primary tank will equally result in massive disadvantages, so will having no ranged DDs.

Enigmatic Sage

Combat should be about proper pacing and strategy. If the players are sponges and the healer role is a bottomless water hydrant than the combat just becomes wet sponge warfare that relies heavily on CC and interrupts.

P0GG0

that's awesome but i'm afraid of that cleric 'type' that dominates every game.

Depraved

P0GG0 wrote: »

because their is one healer class and 7 non healers. do the maths and see how many combination of classes would rather sit in town than get farmed. this is easily fixable by balancing healing differently in pvp and pve. a healer is not supposed to heal the final boss of a 30 man raid AND a grp m8 for the same amount?

well, each party would have their own healer in a raid...

if you lower the heals, then parties would add more healers instead of 1... support classes are less played than dps, and on top of that, there are more dps classes than healer classes, so 7:1 is a good thing if you want a healer in every party.

also pvp and pve are combined. you wont be just doing a boss, you will be doing a boss and pvping with the same build and possibly at the same time. but maybe some skills / augments could give you more or less healing depending on whether you are in pvp state or not

P0GG0

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Combat should be about proper pacing and strategy. If the players are sponges and the healer role is a bottomless water hydrant than the combat just becomes wet sponge warfare that relies heavily on CC and interrupts.

healer are over tuned in every game. most fight revolve around protecting the healer until he out heals all you're irrelevant dmg.

hleV

They just gotta do CCs right and 2DPS vs 1DPS+1Heal will be viable. Not sure if they intend to balance it for 2v2 though, and for 3v3+ you'll obviously want a healer, but if you can't get one then hopefully CC can overcome it.

Depraved

P0GG0 wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Combat should be about proper pacing and strategy. If the players are sponges and the healer role is a bottomless water hydrant than the combat just becomes wet sponge warfare that relies heavily on CC and interrupts.

healer are over tuned in every game. most fight revolve around protecting the healer until he out heals all you're irrelevant dmg.

the alternative is bdo, no healers and everybody is a dps, or everybody can heal, dps and tank and we have another gw2.

there are games with the trinity, and games without it. this one has it.

we could say the same about tanks. why wait 3 hours in town looking for a tank to do a boss, i should be able to kill every boss, even the strongest boss, without a tank. its not fair the tank can survive the boss swing and i cant, and the tank kills my glass cannon dps in 1v1 and i need to bring 2 other people to beat him, etc. etc.

no one is forcing you to use a healer in pvp, you could just go with 8 dps.

also, your logic could be applied to hey i should be able to have 8 rogues in a party and aoe farm as fast as any mage. i should thave to wait an hour in town to get a mage. my 8 rogue party should be able to aoe kill everything and also own in pvp .

Depraved

hleV wrote: »

They just gotta do CCs right and 2DPS vs 1DPS+1Heal will be viable. Not sure if they intend to balance it for 2v2 though, and for 3v3+ you'll obviously want a healer, but if you can't get one then hopefully CC can overcome it.

balance is around 8 people parties

P0GG0

answer this, why is it fun to get 1 healer 1 cc 1 dmg every time you move out ? does that make ur experience better ?

daveywavey

P0GG0 wrote: »

that's anti fun, i want 4 people to beat 4 lesser player by being better rather than who has the perfect composition. i'm so tired of sitting in town waiting for that holy trinity. Do it for pve no problem but dont ruin my pvp experience by being intellectually lazy. with that mindset no wonder people just wait for the bigger zerg and actualy never fight.

I've played games where two very good players have wiped my group that had a couple of healers, just because they were that good. Skill and experience will generally outmatch most things.

Depraved

P0GG0 wrote: »

answer this, why is it fun to get 1 healer 1 cc 1 dmg every time you move out ? does that make ur experience better ?

it does. im playing cleric

what if everybody is dps? no strategy lol just combo and dodge and basically play solo in a party

P0GG0

daveywavey wrote: »

I've played games where two very good players have wiped my group that had a couple of healers, just because they were that good. Skill and experience will generally outmatch most things.

what game was it and how was the healing balanced ? i'm not arguing for the sake of arguing i want people to be creative and learn from the past.
also did thoes competitive players have a healer of their own ? if yes you just proving my point.

Enigmatic Sage

P0GG0 wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Combat should be about proper pacing and strategy. If the players are sponges and the healer role is a bottomless water hydrant than the combat just becomes wet sponge warfare that relies heavily on CC and interrupts.

healer are over tuned in every game. most fight revolve around protecting the healer until he out heals all you're irrelevant dmg.

You should in a way be protecting your healer regardless of role. It's usually common strategy just as the tank mitigates and intervenes primarily. If your team mates over reach outside of their role, it can go south quick.

Enigmatic Sage

I will add on to it though by saying secondary archetypes with current unknown variables for augments, we could see a wide range of defensives and heals across the group compositions.

Depraved

also, the alternative is a potion spamfest instead of healers, which is even worse. now you win because you have more/stronger potions, not because you are better or more coordinated.

P0GG0

wont change the fact that the cleric will be able to heal heavy atacks from lillith and dominate pvp by healing the same value.

NiKr

PvE should require proper tanking, so that healers don't just heal for full hp on each heal, which will in turn let the pvp balance itself

Tanking in pvp is way harder than in pve, which balances out the tank's ability to tank huge hits.

P0GG0

trust me none if play's tank and spank games anymore. have you seen any boss fight in modern games? its just huge cleaves and coordinated movements. every body is taking potential hits.
even if that was true then you got a silly imortal tank that can yolo threw any pvp fight util he get targeted last.

yall keep talking strategy but this aint it.

Raven016

P0GG0 wrote: »

trust me none if play's tank and spank games anymore. have you seen any boss fight in modern games? its just huge cleaves and coordinated movements. every body is taking potential hits.
even if that was true then you got a silly imortal tank that can yolo threw any pvp fight util he get targeted last.

yall keep talking strategy but this aint it.

How did we ended up with this modern dance?
Maybe the music should stop.

NiKr

P0GG0 wrote: »

yall keep talking strategy but this aint it.

Strategy is in that tank's ability to prevent him being the last member of his party. That's the whole point of tanking - protecting others from dmg. If you're the last man standing - you've failed as a tank.

PvP mmos are also not liked these days. Are you suggesting we remove that from AoC as well?

P0GG0

i got a feeling none in this thread is actually a pvp fan. yall talk while never saying anything.

NiKr

P0GG0 wrote: »

i got a feeling none in this thread is actually a pvp fan. yall talk while never saying anything.

Ahh, you're one of those people. Got it.

P0GG0

no wonder devs never read forums. yall spamming for attention.

McShave

I think it makes sense that a party with a healer would beat a party without a healer, assuming the skill is equal. A long time ago, Intrepid said that a proper party would be one of each primary archetype because of the utility they bring to the party. Of course a healer is more important for pvp, as a tank would be important for pve content. However other archetypes will have utility that will also be important (we don't know what, there is still a lot of testing and feedback to give).

Caww

AoC wants trinity game play so healing is always going to be a consideration for group makeups.

from the wiki : We have our eight base archetypes; and the trinity is a pretty strong influence with regards to the eight base classes.

more here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roles

P0GG0

all classes should be equally broken in their own way, its not that hard to make any combination of classes viable. its against the player's enjoyment to be forced into meta right away. its promotes lazy repetitive scenarios. no room for weird sett ups that require smarter choices rather than town hall preperation. its ok if fights look messy, the fun is figuring things out.