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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Hey boys, are you one of the 3.6k Ashes dailies? Cause I sure am
I don't mean any of those hyper specific things. I mean that information determines whether someone decides to fight or continue to fight.
Less info means less fighting. Every thing you hide reduces the amount of fighting that occurs.
You want less info which protects you while damaging the game.
What significant benefit (to the game) does this bring to justify the gating?
Ugh, why do I always promise myself to never try to explain obvious things to people, then I break that promise and immediately understand why I made it the last time.
Lineage 2 is 20 years old and had at peak 3+ million players. Now it's basically dead for a long time because it transformed from classic Korean MMO into P2W mobile garbage.
And yes, Lineage 2 was a game with A LOT OF PvP (not like casual New World) and no, it didn't have HP bars for obvious reasons.
If you think that to succeed at PvP you need to see your enemy's HP - no, you don't. You don't see his HP, he doesn't see yours, the conditions are EQUAL and it prevents potential griefing.
P.S. I genuinely couldn't care less about it. I've seen that happening before and I've done that myself for hours even with invisible health bars. Just don't create topics on forums and complain about it after the launch, if you really think that health bars should be visible
Im your huckleberry, friend. I'll mop the floor with you
Too bad you won’t know how much hp I’m on 😂
Sure i will the game shows us. Watch the stream
And again, there's no gating. Lack of any particular knowledge will not prevent you from participating in any activity.
There hasn't been any mention of this before (unless I missed it on the wiki), so let me ask you this. Do you expect to see/know all the buffs your target has on them? What about their build (i.e. skill tree, gear dials, elemental attributes, tattoos, etc)?
Because unless you want to see those at all times as well - seeing HP would in fact break the overall design of "you don't know your enemy, so you can only theorize about their power". Of course we'll have the class/archetype/gear icon in the nameplate, so you'd already have some basic info to base your theories on, but all of that is there for you to decide whether you want to engage that target, not whether you want to keep fighting them or not.
I think I'd be fine with a compromise of "you can see the nameplate decay once your target hits 75% of their hp". That way you'd have a math point to relate your attack values against their general hp pool. But anything lower will simply lead to flag abuse and just general annoyance of other players, which would then lead to complains that lead to even bigger changes to the system.
But I'd ask the same question to you, what is the "significant benefit" that visible hp brings? You keep saying that pvp will be more abundant cause visible hp somehow increases it, but I don't really see how those two things correlate, especially in the context of presumably already limited information about your enemy (and even more especially before the pvp even starts).
The reason your "griefer" is keeping the green player's HP low in this scenario is to avoid getting corrupted, even though they're clearly attacking a non-combatant, something they had to flag up to do in the first place. They're trying to kill a green player without getting corruption, trying to game the system. So instead, just have them get corrupted on the first attack, and further corrupted after killing the green player.
I'll tend to the flame, you can worship the ashes.
I replied to you in #aoc-discussion why it is absolutely not an option as it basically kills the whole flagging system
If you want to fight someone over a spot then just ask them to flag up before you attack them. Otherwise you're just attacking some non-combatant who wasn't ready for a pvp fight, so yeah, you should get at least a little corruption for that if we're gonna have corruption at all.
If you get corruption on the first hit, you wouldn't get ratters who are too scared to go red messing with the green players. Either man up and go red and deal with the consequences, or challenge them to a duel, or do what any other PvE player would do and try out out-farm them at their spot to steal it.
I'll tend to the flame, you can worship the ashes.
You contradict yourself, my friend. If you get corrupt after the first hit, then you can't ask another player to flag as he will get corrupt as well. Unless you want to provide an option to toggle PvP on/off which is not going to happen in AoC as open world PvP is intended.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with flagging/corruption system. It will be much better than it was in L2 as they addressed its main issues. But to make it 10/10 and unexploitable, health bars should be removed.
And yeah, I forgot it completely. It's not difficult to maintain enemy's HP low with four 25% segments AND it will be even easier when you have 6 or 8 segments. Healthy competition for the spot will turn into ratting
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
And RP would include health bars - until decades from now when tech is good enough to emulate the senses and indicate health.
If you think an attacker getting corruption ruins the flagging system, then corruption is the issue. If you think they shouldn't get corruption, then maybe don't attack some green player without warning? Talk to them in chat, ask to duel or fight over spot or whatever you need to do, make it a fair fight. Don't be some scaredy cat gaming the system, messing with a green player and not expecting to get hit back.
I'll tend to the flame, you can worship the ashes.
I never had health bars when i played DnD lol. Also what if my RP character has magic to hide the damage I've taken.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
Technically he is right, someone might not impulse pvp someone if they dont know they are almost dead lmao.
You make it sound like this is all grieving is going to be? How often can someone keep another player at low hp to die to random PvE? This doesn’t sound like it will be occurring a lot? Unless the other player just sits there and AFK’s
Every class will have counter measures? Use em? All this to stop such a small percentage
Let’s not forget the Quarterly health bars seems to be the way they are heading and doesn’t look like that will be changing no matter how many of these threads open up
The greifer issue is a fair point. When A2 hits we all need to exploit the hell out the systems to iron that stuff.
My unpopular hope is that life gets harder for those at the top. I don't want things to be easy, but getting new faces in the upper teirs regularly is healthy IMO.
This is a meta in mmorpgs with corruption style systems. In BDO people would choose to not pk you and do everything possible to get you to die to mobs as long as they could to waste ur time. Times this by every other play / group that runs across you.
I feel (with no basis) that Intrepid made a really big effort to manage the camera and damage value showing in the Caravan PvP showcase so that people who run those sorts of things on their video, would be unable to get any 'head start' on real-time(ish) detection in Alpha-2.
Intrepid, if that was somehow your goal, I regret to inform you that it didn't quite work (but I also really doubt the Combat Design team actually cares about solving this problem this way).
Then I think the corruption hit should happen on attack, not get multiplied by actually killing someone. If their is nothing to gain it would solve the death by Mob issue. But we would still have to have a fix for the griefing. I'm sure there is something
Corruption system would have to be reworked entirely for that since it is highly harsh tot he point people can get free kills without being corrupted. You need supporting features with a system so it is effective as players will find a way around. Any one system is never enough, you fighting against this is only going to help pvpers.
I've said this before but when some of the big competitive pvp guilds start playing some of you are going to realize. And at that point its just part of the game for feeding people to mobs. I can fully promise you, you will not enjoy it when they get loot with even getting corrupted and see what we were talking about.
I've literally used this method and have had this method used against me like a normal part of the game multiple times a day.
So does the L2 system work or does it not work? The system works in Eve, but they heighten and lessen the penalty in certain areas to create the type of combat they want in specific parts of space.
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.