You are suggesting hiding info which will reduce open world pvp and I'm suggesting we add info to encourage it.
I'm just curious, how exactly does knowing hp increase the amount of pvp in the game?
If I hit a dude for 100 and he hits me for 1k - it's gonna be obvious that he's stronger. If I'm the "scissors" to my enemy's "paper" hp won't matter much because I'm already at an advantage (same the other way around).
Also, it takes someone flagging up to even know what their impact on the target's hp would even be, so in your supposition pvp is already happening even before either side knows their target's hp, so how exactly would that knowledge have any impact on the amount of pvp in the game?
And if you meant that visible hp would increase the amount of pvps ending in some particular way, I'd imagine that the dmg numbers would have a much bigger influence on those particular outcomes, unless the game is so damn imbalanced that person A is doing 1k dmg to person B who has 20k hp, while B only does 100 dmg to A who has 1k hp. But I dearly hope we don't have shit like that.
I don't mean any of those hyper specific things. I mean that information determines whether someone decides to fight or continue to fight.
Less info means less fighting. Every thing you hide reduces the amount of fighting that occurs.
You want less info which protects you while damaging the game.
What significant benefit (to the game) does this bring to justify the gating?
Hey boys, are you one of the 3.6k Ashes dailies? Cause I sure am
Ugh, why do I always promise myself to never try to explain obvious things to people, then I break that promise and immediately understand why I made it the last time.
Lineage 2 is 20 years old and had at peak 3+ million players. Now it's basically dead for a long time because it transformed from classic Korean MMO into P2W mobile garbage.
And yes, Lineage 2 was a game with A LOT OF PvP (not like casual New World) and no, it didn't have HP bars for obvious reasons.
If you think that to succeed at PvP you need to see your enemy's HP - no, you don't. You don't see his HP, he doesn't see yours, the conditions are EQUAL and it prevents potential griefing.
P.S. I genuinely couldn't care less about it. I've seen that happening before and I've done that myself for hours even with invisible health bars. Just don't create topics on forums and complain about it after the launch, if you really think that health bars should be visible
What significant benefit (to the game) does this bring to justify the gating?
Skill ceiling is higher, corruption system abuse is lower, quality of top lvl pvp is higher (because people have to learn stuff rather than just look at what game gives them on a silver platter) - I'd say those are the biggest ones, with the corruption part being the most important thing. I'm there's more nuances that I'm forgetting right now.
And again, there's no gating. Lack of any particular knowledge will not prevent you from participating in any activity.
There hasn't been any mention of this before (unless I missed it on the wiki), so let me ask you this. Do you expect to see/know all the buffs your target has on them? What about their build (i.e. skill tree, gear dials, elemental attributes, tattoos, etc)?
Because unless you want to see those at all times as well - seeing HP would in fact break the overall design of "you don't know your enemy, so you can only theorize about their power". Of course we'll have the class/archetype/gear icon in the nameplate, so you'd already have some basic info to base your theories on, but all of that is there for you to decide whether you want to engage that target, not whether you want to keep fighting them or not.
I think I'd be fine with a compromise of "you can see the nameplate decay once your target hits 75% of their hp". That way you'd have a math point to relate your attack values against their general hp pool. But anything lower will simply lead to flag abuse and just general annoyance of other players, which would then lead to complains that lead to even bigger changes to the system.
But I'd ask the same question to you, what is the "significant benefit" that visible hp brings? You keep saying that pvp will be more abundant cause visible hp somehow increases it, but I don't really see how those two things correlate, especially in the context of presumably already limited information about your enemy (and even more especially before the pvp even starts).
For instance, a griefer could intentionally keep a player's HP low, while having little to no risk of killing that player.
The solution to this seems simple to me, give the "griefer" corruption for the first attack they made against a green player. It doesn't have to be a lot of corruption, not close to how much they'd get for killing a green player.
The reason your "griefer" is keeping the green player's HP low in this scenario is to avoid getting corrupted, even though they're clearly attacking a non-combatant, something they had to flag up to do in the first place. They're trying to kill a green player without getting corruption, trying to game the system. So instead, just have them get corrupted on the first attack, and further corrupted after killing the green player.
The solution to this seems simple to me, give the "griefer" corruption for the first attack they made against a green player. It doesn't have to be a lot of corruption, not close to how much they'd get for killing a green player.
The reason your "griefer" is keeping the green player's HP low in this scenario is to avoid getting corrupted, even though they're clearly attacking a non-combatant, something they had to flag up to do in the first place. They're trying to kill a green player without getting corruption, trying to game the system. So instead, just have them get corrupted on the first attack, and further corrupted after killing the green player.
I replied to you in #aoc-discussion why it is absolutely not an option as it basically kills the whole flagging system
I replied to you in #aoc-discussion why it is absolutely not an option as it basically kills the whole flagging system
If getting corrupted ruins the flagging system, then maybe corruption is the issue.
If you want to fight someone over a spot then just ask them to flag up before you attack them. Otherwise you're just attacking some non-combatant who wasn't ready for a pvp fight, so yeah, you should get at least a little corruption for that if we're gonna have corruption at all.
If you get corruption on the first hit, you wouldn't get ratters who are too scared to go red messing with the green players. Either man up and go red and deal with the consequences, or challenge them to a duel, or do what any other PvE player would do and try out out-farm them at their spot to steal it.
I replied to you in #aoc-discussion why it is absolutely not an option as it basically kills the whole flagging system
If getting corrupted ruins the flagging system, then maybe corruption is the issue.
If you want to fight someone over a spot then just ask them to flag up before you attack them. Otherwise you're just attacking some non-combatant who wasn't ready for a pvp fight, so yeah, you should get at least a little corruption for that if we're gonna have corruption at all.
If you get corruption on the first hit, you wouldn't get ratters who are too scared to go red messing with the green players. Either man up and go red and deal with the consequences, or challenge them to a duel, or do what any other PvE player would do and try out out-farm them at their spot to steal it.
You contradict yourself, my friend. If you get corrupt after the first hit, then you can't ask another player to flag as he will get corrupt as well. Unless you want to provide an option to toggle PvP on/off which is not going to happen in AoC as open world PvP is intended.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with flagging/corruption system. It will be much better than it was in L2 as they addressed its main issues. But to make it 10/10 and unexploitable, health bars should be removed.
And yeah, I forgot it completely. It's not difficult to maintain enemy's HP low with four 25% segments AND it will be even easier when you have 6 or 8 segments. Healthy competition for the spot will turn into ratting
What significant benefit (to the game) does this bring to justify the gating?
Skill ceiling is higher, corruption system abuse is lower, quality of top lvl pvp is higher (because people have to learn stuff rather than just look at what game gives them on a silver platter) - I'd say those are the biggest ones, with the corruption part being the most important thing. I'm there's more nuances that I'm forgetting right now.
And again, there's no gating. Lack of any particular knowledge will not prevent you from participating in any activity.
There hasn't been any mention of this before (unless I missed it on the wiki), so let me ask you this. Do you expect to see/know all the buffs your target has on them? What about their build (i.e. skill tree, gear dials, elemental attributes, tattoos, etc)?
Because unless you want to see those at all times as well - seeing HP would in fact break the overall design of "you don't know your enemy, so you can only theorize about their power". Of course we'll have the class/archetype/gear icon in the nameplate, so you'd already have some basic info to base your theories on, but all of that is there for you to decide whether you want to engage that target, not whether you want to keep fighting them or not.
I think I'd be fine with a compromise of "you can see the nameplate decay once your target hits 75% of their hp". That way you'd have a math point to relate your attack values against their general hp pool. But anything lower will simply lead to flag abuse and just general annoyance of other players, which would then lead to complains that lead to even bigger changes to the system.
But I'd ask the same question to you, what is the "significant benefit" that visible hp brings? You keep saying that pvp will be more abundant cause visible hp somehow increases it, but I don't really see how those two things correlate, especially in the context of presumably already limited information about your enemy (and even more especially before the pvp even starts).
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes, please, remove any visibility of non-party members' hp.
There's no reason to have it, outside of "oh, but the reaaaalismmmm!" Gameplay is way more important than realism, especially when it comes to an already highly debated topic of pvp/pk.
I would say in an RPG - RP is way more important than gameplay.
And RP would include health bars - until decades from now when tech is good enough to emulate the senses and indicate health.
If you get corrupt after the first hit, then you can't ask another player to flag as he will get corrupt as well.
I'm saying if you don't want corruption, ask them in chat to fight over spot before you attack them. If you're attacking unsuspecting greens then maybe you deserve some corruption.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with flagging/corruption system. It will be much better than it was in L2 as they addressed its main issues. But to make it 10/10 and unexploitable, health bars should be removed.
You're saying a rat keeping a player at low HP is an exploit. Why is this an exploit? Because they're essentially making a player die to mobs without getting corrupted, right? So give the attacker corruption for the first attack, and now it's not an exploit. Now an attacker, who decided to flag up and attack a green player, has to deal with the consequences.
If you think an attacker getting corruption ruins the flagging system, then corruption is the issue. If you think they shouldn't get corruption, then maybe don't attack some green player without warning? Talk to them in chat, ask to duel or fight over spot or whatever you need to do, make it a fair fight. Don't be some scaredy cat gaming the system, messing with a green player and not expecting to get hit back.
Yes, please, remove any visibility of non-party members' hp.
There's no reason to have it, outside of "oh, but the reaaaalismmmm!" Gameplay is way more important than realism, especially when it comes to an already highly debated topic of pvp/pk.
I would say in an RPG - RP is way more important than gameplay.
And RP would include health bars - until decades from now when tech is good enough to emulate the senses and indicate health.
I never had health bars when i played DnD lol. Also what if my RP character has magic to hide the damage I've taken.
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
I'm still not sure how a higher ceiling reduces overall participation. It's not as if the floor moves with the ceiling. Obviously there's gonna only be a fraction of the pvpers at the very top, because that's the inherent nature of being at the top.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
I'm still not sure how a higher ceiling reduces overall participation. It's not as if the floor moves with the ceiling. Obviously there's gonna only be a fraction of the pvpers at the very top, because that's the inherent nature of being at the top.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
Technically he is right, someone might not impulse pvp someone if they dont know they are almost dead lmao.
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
I'm still not sure how a higher ceiling reduces overall participation. It's not as if the floor moves with the ceiling. Obviously there's gonna only be a fraction of the pvpers at the very top, because that's the inherent nature of being at the top.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
You make it sound like this is all grieving is going to be? How often can someone keep another player at low hp to die to random PvE? This doesn’t sound like it will be occurring a lot? Unless the other player just sits there and AFK’s
Every class will have counter measures? Use em? All this to stop such a small percentage
Let’s not forget the Quarterly health bars seems to be the way they are heading and doesn’t look like that will be changing no matter how many of these threads open up
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
I'm still not sure how a higher ceiling reduces overall participation. It's not as if the floor moves with the ceiling. Obviously there's gonna only be a fraction of the pvpers at the very top, because that's the inherent nature of being at the top.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
The greifer issue is a fair point. When A2 hits we all need to exploit the hell out the systems to iron that stuff.
My unpopular hope is that life gets harder for those at the top. I don't want things to be easy, but getting new faces in the upper teirs regularly is healthy IMO.
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
I'm still not sure how a higher ceiling reduces overall participation. It's not as if the floor moves with the ceiling. Obviously there's gonna only be a fraction of the pvpers at the very top, because that's the inherent nature of being at the top.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
You make it sound like this is all grieving is going to be? How often can someone keep another player at low hp to die to random PvE? This doesn’t sound like it will be occurring a lot? Unless the other player just sits there and AFK’s
Every class will have counter measures? Use em? All this to stop such a small percentage
Let’s not forget the Quarterly health bars seems to be the way they are heading and doesn’t look like that will be changing no matter how many of these threads open up
This is a meta in mmorpgs with corruption style systems. In BDO people would choose to not pk you and do everything possible to get you to die to mobs as long as they could to waste ur time. Times this by every other play / group that runs across you.
I think we have enough PvP video now for an HP gap parser?
I feel (with no basis) that Intrepid made a really big effort to manage the camera and damage value showing in the Caravan PvP showcase so that people who run those sorts of things on their video, would be unable to get any 'head start' on real-time(ish) detection in Alpha-2.
Intrepid, if that was somehow your goal, I regret to inform you that it didn't quite work (but I also really doubt the Combat Design team actually cares about solving this problem this way).
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
I'm still not sure how a higher ceiling reduces overall participation. It's not as if the floor moves with the ceiling. Obviously there's gonna only be a fraction of the pvpers at the very top, because that's the inherent nature of being at the top.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
You make it sound like this is all grieving is going to be? How often can someone keep another player at low hp to die to random PvE? This doesn’t sound like it will be occurring a lot? Unless the other player just sits there and AFK’s
Every class will have counter measures? Use em? All this to stop such a small percentage
Let’s not forget the Quarterly health bars seems to be the way they are heading and doesn’t look like that will be changing no matter how many of these threads open up
This is a meta in mmorpgs with corruption style systems. In BDO people would choose to not pk you and do everything possible to get you to die to mobs as long as they could to waste ur time. Times this by every other play / group that runs across you.
Then I think the corruption hit should happen on attack, not get multiplied by actually killing someone. If their is nothing to gain it would solve the death by Mob issue. But we would still have to have a fix for the griefing. I'm sure there is something
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
I'm still not sure how a higher ceiling reduces overall participation. It's not as if the floor moves with the ceiling. Obviously there's gonna only be a fraction of the pvpers at the very top, because that's the inherent nature of being at the top.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
You make it sound like this is all grieving is going to be? How often can someone keep another player at low hp to die to random PvE? This doesn’t sound like it will be occurring a lot? Unless the other player just sits there and AFK’s
Every class will have counter measures? Use em? All this to stop such a small percentage
Let’s not forget the Quarterly health bars seems to be the way they are heading and doesn’t look like that will be changing no matter how many of these threads open up
This is a meta in mmorpgs with corruption style systems. In BDO people would choose to not pk you and do everything possible to get you to die to mobs as long as they could to waste ur time. Times this by every other play / group that runs across you.
Then I think the corruption hit should happen on attack, not get multiplied by actually killing someone. If their is nothing to gain it would solve the death by Mob issue. But we would still have to have a fix for the griefing. I'm sure there is something
Corruption system would have to be reworked entirely for that since it is highly harsh tot he point people can get free kills without being corrupted. You need supporting features with a system so it is effective as players will find a way around. Any one system is never enough, you fighting against this is only going to help pvpers.
I've said this before but when some of the big competitive pvp guilds start playing some of you are going to realize. And at that point its just part of the game for feeding people to mobs. I can fully promise you, you will not enjoy it when they get loot with even getting corrupted and see what we were talking about.
I've literally used this method and have had this method used against me like a normal part of the game multiple times a day.
Hp bars make it easier to determine the risk to reward ratio in any fight. If I run up on a guy who just won a fight and I see he is at the lowest hp chunk, it tells me there are 2 loot bags sitting right there if I finish him off. If he didn't have hp visible I wouldn't know whether to attack him unless I perceived the fight and estimated that he was almost dead. I ask the devs to do a test. Have a few different groups do 1v1s, same class. Do 3 fights of each, 3 with HP bars visible and 3 without. Then tell me the invisible bars wasn't way more exciting and focused.
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
I'm still not sure how a higher ceiling reduces overall participation. It's not as if the floor moves with the ceiling. Obviously there's gonna only be a fraction of the pvpers at the very top, because that's the inherent nature of being at the top.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
You make it sound like this is all grieving is going to be? How often can someone keep another player at low hp to die to random PvE? This doesn’t sound like it will be occurring a lot? Unless the other player just sits there and AFK’s
Every class will have counter measures? Use em? All this to stop such a small percentage
Let’s not forget the Quarterly health bars seems to be the way they are heading and doesn’t look like that will be changing no matter how many of these threads open up
This is a meta in mmorpgs with corruption style systems. In BDO people would choose to not pk you and do everything possible to get you to die to mobs as long as they could to waste ur time. Times this by every other play / group that runs across you.
Then I think the corruption hit should happen on attack, not get multiplied by actually killing someone. If their is nothing to gain it would solve the death by Mob issue. But we would still have to have a fix for the griefing. I'm sure there is something
Corruption system would have to be reworked entirely for that since it is highly harsh tot he point people can get free kills without being corrupted. You need supporting features with a system so it is effective as players will find a way around. Any one system is never enough, you fighting against this is only going to help pvpers.
I've said this before but when some of the big competitive pvp guilds start playing some of you are going to realize. And at that point its just part of the game for feeding people to mobs. I can fully promise you, you will not enjoy it when they get loot with even getting corrupted and see what we were talking about.
I've literally used this method and have had this method used against me like a normal part of the game multiple times a day.
So does the L2 system work or does it not work? The system works in Eve, but they heighten and lessen the penalty in certain areas to create the type of combat they want in specific parts of space.
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
It works as an owpvp system. Steven changed it slightly to help pvers already (harsher PK penalties, no CC against greens and the stat dampening on massive corruption values), so I don't see why another slight change doing the same wouldn't be made.
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.
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Hey boys, are you one of the 3.6k Ashes dailies? Cause I sure am
I don't mean any of those hyper specific things. I mean that information determines whether someone decides to fight or continue to fight.
Less info means less fighting. Every thing you hide reduces the amount of fighting that occurs.
You want less info which protects you while damaging the game.
What significant benefit (to the game) does this bring to justify the gating?
Ugh, why do I always promise myself to never try to explain obvious things to people, then I break that promise and immediately understand why I made it the last time.
Lineage 2 is 20 years old and had at peak 3+ million players. Now it's basically dead for a long time because it transformed from classic Korean MMO into P2W mobile garbage.
And yes, Lineage 2 was a game with A LOT OF PvP (not like casual New World) and no, it didn't have HP bars for obvious reasons.
If you think that to succeed at PvP you need to see your enemy's HP - no, you don't. You don't see his HP, he doesn't see yours, the conditions are EQUAL and it prevents potential griefing.
P.S. I genuinely couldn't care less about it. I've seen that happening before and I've done that myself for hours even with invisible health bars. Just don't create topics on forums and complain about it after the launch, if you really think that health bars should be visible
Im your huckleberry, friend. I'll mop the floor with you
Too bad you won’t know how much hp I’m on 😂
Sure i will the game shows us. Watch the stream
And again, there's no gating. Lack of any particular knowledge will not prevent you from participating in any activity.
There hasn't been any mention of this before (unless I missed it on the wiki), so let me ask you this. Do you expect to see/know all the buffs your target has on them? What about their build (i.e. skill tree, gear dials, elemental attributes, tattoos, etc)?
Because unless you want to see those at all times as well - seeing HP would in fact break the overall design of "you don't know your enemy, so you can only theorize about their power". Of course we'll have the class/archetype/gear icon in the nameplate, so you'd already have some basic info to base your theories on, but all of that is there for you to decide whether you want to engage that target, not whether you want to keep fighting them or not.
I think I'd be fine with a compromise of "you can see the nameplate decay once your target hits 75% of their hp". That way you'd have a math point to relate your attack values against their general hp pool. But anything lower will simply lead to flag abuse and just general annoyance of other players, which would then lead to complains that lead to even bigger changes to the system.
But I'd ask the same question to you, what is the "significant benefit" that visible hp brings? You keep saying that pvp will be more abundant cause visible hp somehow increases it, but I don't really see how those two things correlate, especially in the context of presumably already limited information about your enemy (and even more especially before the pvp even starts).
The reason your "griefer" is keeping the green player's HP low in this scenario is to avoid getting corrupted, even though they're clearly attacking a non-combatant, something they had to flag up to do in the first place. They're trying to kill a green player without getting corruption, trying to game the system. So instead, just have them get corrupted on the first attack, and further corrupted after killing the green player.
I replied to you in #aoc-discussion why it is absolutely not an option as it basically kills the whole flagging system
If you want to fight someone over a spot then just ask them to flag up before you attack them. Otherwise you're just attacking some non-combatant who wasn't ready for a pvp fight, so yeah, you should get at least a little corruption for that if we're gonna have corruption at all.
If you get corruption on the first hit, you wouldn't get ratters who are too scared to go red messing with the green players. Either man up and go red and deal with the consequences, or challenge them to a duel, or do what any other PvE player would do and try out out-farm them at their spot to steal it.
You contradict yourself, my friend. If you get corrupt after the first hit, then you can't ask another player to flag as he will get corrupt as well. Unless you want to provide an option to toggle PvP on/off which is not going to happen in AoC as open world PvP is intended.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with flagging/corruption system. It will be much better than it was in L2 as they addressed its main issues. But to make it 10/10 and unexploitable, health bars should be removed.
And yeah, I forgot it completely. It's not difficult to maintain enemy's HP low with four 25% segments AND it will be even easier when you have 6 or 8 segments. Healthy competition for the spot will turn into ratting
That's really the point I'm making. Raising the ceiling, lowers the participation. You just have to be happy with fewer people with every barrier you put in place.
Should it be that way? Don't know, but it is. Its not the type of change you can make without a tradeoff
And RP would include health bars - until decades from now when tech is good enough to emulate the senses and indicate health.
If you think an attacker getting corruption ruins the flagging system, then corruption is the issue. If you think they shouldn't get corruption, then maybe don't attack some green player without warning? Talk to them in chat, ask to duel or fight over spot or whatever you need to do, make it a fair fight. Don't be some scaredy cat gaming the system, messing with a green player and not expecting to get hit back.
I never had health bars when i played DnD lol. Also what if my RP character has magic to hide the damage I've taken.
Having the current pvp system will already cull quite a lot of people (as evident by Tenguru's post), so I doubt that not seeing hp in pvp would cull too much more on top of that. Of course it would be a deal breaker for some, but I really feel like relatively speaking it would be a fraction of a fraction of the amount of people filtered by all the other features.
If anything, I think that helping griefers do their stuff easier would remove more casual players from the game than not seeing hp would.
Technically he is right, someone might not impulse pvp someone if they dont know they are almost dead lmao.
You make it sound like this is all grieving is going to be? How often can someone keep another player at low hp to die to random PvE? This doesn’t sound like it will be occurring a lot? Unless the other player just sits there and AFK’s
Every class will have counter measures? Use em? All this to stop such a small percentage
Let’s not forget the Quarterly health bars seems to be the way they are heading and doesn’t look like that will be changing no matter how many of these threads open up
The greifer issue is a fair point. When A2 hits we all need to exploit the hell out the systems to iron that stuff.
My unpopular hope is that life gets harder for those at the top. I don't want things to be easy, but getting new faces in the upper teirs regularly is healthy IMO.
This is a meta in mmorpgs with corruption style systems. In BDO people would choose to not pk you and do everything possible to get you to die to mobs as long as they could to waste ur time. Times this by every other play / group that runs across you.
I feel (with no basis) that Intrepid made a really big effort to manage the camera and damage value showing in the Caravan PvP showcase so that people who run those sorts of things on their video, would be unable to get any 'head start' on real-time(ish) detection in Alpha-2.
Intrepid, if that was somehow your goal, I regret to inform you that it didn't quite work (but I also really doubt the Combat Design team actually cares about solving this problem this way).
Then I think the corruption hit should happen on attack, not get multiplied by actually killing someone. If their is nothing to gain it would solve the death by Mob issue. But we would still have to have a fix for the griefing. I'm sure there is something
Corruption system would have to be reworked entirely for that since it is highly harsh tot he point people can get free kills without being corrupted. You need supporting features with a system so it is effective as players will find a way around. Any one system is never enough, you fighting against this is only going to help pvpers.
I've said this before but when some of the big competitive pvp guilds start playing some of you are going to realize. And at that point its just part of the game for feeding people to mobs. I can fully promise you, you will not enjoy it when they get loot with even getting corrupted and see what we were talking about.
I've literally used this method and have had this method used against me like a normal part of the game multiple times a day.
So does the L2 system work or does it not work? The system works in Eve, but they heighten and lessen the penalty in certain areas to create the type of combat they want in specific parts of space.
You guys seem to talk about L2s system as working great and then in next thread talk about how broken and exploitative it was. Which is it?
Mag is talking about bdo, which was different from L2 (at least from what I've read/heard), but L2 also had people who tried their best to screw people over by trying and holding them on low hp. Only the knowledgeable players could do that successfully (though sometimes still failed cause their abilities critted), exactly because you couldn't see hp.
That is the exact reason why I don't really understand why Steven would go with a visible design, cause imo it simply encourages griefers to grief, because it's now suuuuuper easy to do (as compared to L2 at least).
Then just punish attacking a green the same as killing a green. The reasons to attack greens don't change, and most importantly don't go away, but the incentive to hold people at low hp or run them into mobs disappear. They do this in Eve and it works fine.