Health bar should be removed and here is why

MissionCreep

It's not clear if you mean those health bars should NEVER be visible. There are two possible scenarios:

1 - Health bar is never visible to non-allies

2 - Health bar becomes visible once PvP begins...that is to say, Health Bars are always visible for enemies (as well as allies). But not for neutrals

I support option 2.

akabear

200x200 pvp is going to be a lot of health bars!

RocketFarmer

Idea: Health bars are only visible if a class casts an ability/spell to see them. And only the target can be seen. Make it a GCD resource and require communication and coordination among the group. Tanks will scan/spam bosses, allow the Wizard to scan/spam multiple minions (or toggle between a single target and multiple targets depending on relative strength), etc. Clerics/Bards can scan/spam and share, providing the utility role. Hunter’s mark shows hp bar. Berserker fighters don’t care about hp bars; they prefer visceral gore. Rogues ought to have an audible heartbeat in sneak mode to detect relative health of the target (using pace and volume as indicators), especially if action/combat is in the dark. The pace can indicate the target’s awareness whereas the volume an indicator of getting weaker.

I think the hp bars have traditionally been used to communicate what they haven’t been able to show graphically. The bars cost fewer resources, but with today’s technology perhaps that changes?

Pyrolol

akabear wrote: »

200x200 pvp is going to be a lot of health bars!

wakkytabbaky

MissionCreep wrote: »

It's not clear if you mean those health bars should NEVER be visible. There are two possible scenarios:

1 - Health bar is never visible to non-allies

2 - Health bar becomes visible once PvP begins...that is to say, Health Bars are always visible for enemies (as well as allies). But not for neutrals

I support option 2.

im all for number 2 as then it would also help identify enemies and people who are just watching on the sidelines ( for example group a and b fighting and group c waddles into the area but arent hostile yet). would make full on ganking alot harder / more interesting as well. wont be able to just blow your load on someone instantly until you engage so you can see their hp otherwise you are gonna end up corrupted.

only upside of seeing someones Hp while being neutral is if you are a rogue / assassin so you can assasinate them but in this type of game with corruption thats not the best option half the time anyway.

Flanker

wakkytabbaky wrote: »

im all for number 2 as then it would also help identify enemies and people who are just watching on the sidelines ( for example group a and b fighting and group c waddles into the area but arent hostile yet). would make full on ganking alot harder / more interesting as well. wont be able to just blow your load on someone instantly until you engage so you can see their hp otherwise you are gonna end up corrupted.

only upside of seeing someones Hp while being neutral is if you are a rogue / assassin so you can assasinate them but in this type of game with corruption thats not the best option half the time anyway.

That's basically what is described in the update to the first post

Vaknar

Many interesting opinions and insights in this thread. It's helpful to see examples being used to bolster points. This is helpful feedback and will be insightful going into Alpha Two, where more players get time to experience the current obfuscated health values.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Why does it matter where and what are you talking about with consenting? What does that have to do with avoiding the corruption system.

If it is the fact that players can sometimes avoid corruption by reducing a player to low HP and letting a mob finish them off, then address that specific directly.

A game where you cant see opponent HP doesnt prevent that issue sometimes happening - it still happened in L2.

Sometimes people are able to do it on purpose,sometimes it happens on accident.

The point is, if your issue is that people can sometimes avoid corruption if a mob kills a player, then that is what you should be arguing to close. Being able to see HP of an enemy is such a minor, insignificant aspect of that as to make it not even worth consideration as a fix.

If you really - and I mean *really* - want that situation fixed, you ask for all players that attacked another player within a number of seconds of them dying to all share in the corruption, as this closes literally all loop holes where players could avoid corruption.

The fact that you are arguing for no visible HP bar and not the above tells us all that you actually dont care about people being able to sometimes avoid corruption.

Like, we can all see it plain as day.

In L2, the corruption system swung both ways.

There were occasions when we got intel from someone a certain player or group of players were closing in and likely to target our guild, so we deliberately prepared. When they arrived, someone in our group (or all) provoked/taunted them to initiate PvP.

However, by being prepared, our hit points were already reduced beforehand. Either did from mobs or by flagging on each other.

Then, we allowed them to inadvertently one or two tap kill one of our group members (someone sacrificed themselves for the team), causing them to turn red.

Consequently, we would retaliate en-force and reap the rewards of their dropped gear!

With no health bar and they had no idea; so they provoke pvp in the normal manner by just hitting a few times within the known number of likely shots short of a kill (+/- a crit) unintentionally kill, go red and end up being played themselves..

We did this on farmers a lot and selected enemy players. The farming team "enforcers" did not like going red but did try to clear areas to allow their own team to stay and remove unwanted pve`ers.

But should a friendly guild in fair play pk lose their gear, we usually gave back.

Right, and so my first thought with this is "why try to replicate that"?

Sure, people did this at times in L2, and it was probably somewhat unexpected by most that had this done to them.

However, why should that mean that this same thing needs to be done in Ashes? Rather than building the game to give us interesting ways to use the mechanics that were done in other games, give us new mechanics that require us to come up with new ways to do this.

I have absolutely no doubt people will attempt to do that same thing in Ashes - even with HP indicators. However, they will have to be cleaver and come up with a new way of doing it rather than regurgitating something that was done 20 years ago.

group corruption is too much. that doesn't solve the problem. I've explained many times why its a bad idea. you could even join a group of people who are leveling, then go and kill one of your friends, making all the randoms go red while ur guild comes out of nowhere and destroy them.

anyways if people could see your hp, you could still get them to go red while trying to lower your health. simply remove your jewels (they cant see you did) now you have no mdef and you die making the other person go red.

vs physical attackers, we don't know how cosmetics gonna work in the end. you could probably remove your armor and your enemies wont see that, and will only see your costumes, so it would work the same as removing your jewels. and even if they could see that you are naked, then they wont attack you to avoid getting red (unless they just wanted to go red in the first place, then it doesn't matter).

there are also plenty of ways to avoid being killed by mobs and someone lowering your hp. people need to git gud.

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

group corruption is too much.

I read these first five words of your post and stopped.

That isn't anything I have talked about at all in this thread (I don't think I have specifically argued for group corruption at all).

Feel free to go back over what I actually said and form an opinion on that if you like, rather than pulling assumptions on what was said out of seemingly no where and then posting your opinions on those assumptions.

Diamaht

Vaknar wrote: »

Many interesting opinions and insights in this thread. It's helpful to see examples being used to bolster points. This is helpful feedback and will be insightful going into Alpha Two, where more players get time to experience the current obfuscated health values.

Unless I missed it somewhere, what exactly IS the obfuscated health value set up going to be going into A2?

Is it exactly what we saw in the Caravan demo? With bars visible always in combat, then degrading by sections?

blat

Flanker wrote: »

This change would also open strategic possibilities like deliberately maintaining low HP to bait enemies. Upon being attacked and accidentally killed, a player could retaliate against their attacker who turns red without facing any penalties, potentially leading to the agressor dropping their gear upon defeat.

IMO this is a reason not to allow invisible health bars.

When you're doing something that you'd never normally consider doing if not for the system, then that system is getting in the way (of natural gameplay).
This is gaming the system rather than playing the game, IMO, and is a sign of bad design.

Mag7spy

blat wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

This change would also open strategic possibilities like deliberately maintaining low HP to bait enemies. Upon being attacked and accidentally killed, a player could retaliate against their attacker who turns red without facing any penalties, potentially leading to the agressor dropping their gear upon defeat.

IMO this is a reason not to allow invisible health bars.

When you're doing something that you'd never normally consider doing if not for the system, then that system is getting in the way (of natural gameplay).
This is gaming the system rather than playing the game, IMO, and is a sign of bad design.

This isn't bad design, ill explain this as others have already.

If your purpose is to pvp flag and kill someone to remove them out of the area or get them to flag back as purple that risk of them dying is part of it and intended. Though there needs to be more context for each different situation...

Situation 1.
If the person is fighting mobs and you are attacking them while not knowing their hp and kill them that should be very well intended. This is of course the worse case scenario where someone could judge one is trying to grief potentially to get them killed to mobs.

Situation 2.
You know they are fighting mobs and wait for them to finish to either talk to them or simply attack them hoping they flag back. Knowing they were fighting mobs you should have plenty of information to make a judgement on their potential hp level and waiting for them to heal before you decide to flag on them. There shouldn't be a situation where you kill them by accident

Situation 3.
Person is almost dead (you dont know) and is not attacking mobs and walking around the area while avoiding any mobs but kind of following you (or maybe not following you). Its pretty clear this person isn't at the moment effecting your farm and can easily be ignored. You decide to flag and kill them anyway not having an actual reason and they die in one attack. Though this would corrupt you, at the same time you pretty much flagged on someone for no reason not effecting you. corruption at this point is deserved. Do to the level of their hp they wouldn't be able to have any influence on mobs nor even hover near you around mobs else they die instantly.


I fail to see how this is in relation to a reason for bad design on that point. Pretty much in these situations you are making your own choice and would have plenty of information to avoid killing someone even without seeing their hp. Or out right be able to avoid being corrupted by simply not attacking them as they aren't effecting you.

Because something is thought of on paper doesn't mean it works or makes sense in practice. Ruining around almost dead in AoC (that is suppose to have more difficult pve) sounds like a quick way to die and lose XP and items you have on you potentially and have to run all the way back and waste a lot of time.

blat

Mag7spy wrote: »

This isn't bad design, ill explain this as others have already.

As I said, IMO this is bad design. There is no objective truth here to explain, it's only your opinion, and mine.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Situation 1.
If the person is fighting mobs and you are attacking them while not knowing their hp and kill them that should be very well intended. This is of course the worse case scenario where someone could judge one is trying to grief potentially to get them killed to mobs.

We're not sure how this will work (unless someone can correct me?) - there may well be a mechanic that causes the 'killing blow' to pass back to the last player causing damage, say within X seconds.
Although I imagine this is the type of thing that will receive more focus during the Alpha tests.

Personally speaking however, for me it's all part of the "dangers of the world", and kind've fair game. As long as there is no significant difference in level.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Situation 3.
Person is almost dead (you dont know) and is not attacking mobs and walking around the area while avoiding any mobs but kind of following you (or maybe not following you). Its pretty clear this person isn't at the moment effecting your farm and can easily be ignored. You decide to flag and kill them anyway not having an actual reason and they die in one attack. Though this would corrupt you, at the same time you pretty much flagged on someone for no reason not effecting you. corruption at this point is deserved. Do to the level of their hp they wouldn't be able to have any influence on mobs nor even hover near you around mobs else they die instantly.

Again IMO this is a sign of bad design. Outside of gaming the corruption mechanic, there is no reason you would normally choose to wander around with 3% hp. So the mechanic itself is causing players to behave irrationally for some kind of advantage (you said in a previous post that the victim could then hunt the corrupted aggressor and take his gear) - so the mechanic itself is warping the gameplay. For me it's a negative not a positive.

These mechanics are trying to solve a particular problem, without creating new ones - aka staying out of the way of natural gameplay. Running around Verra with 3% HP is not natural gameplay.

Otr

blat wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Situation 1.
If the person is fighting mobs and you are attacking them while not knowing their hp and kill them that should be very well intended. This is of course the worse case scenario where someone could judge one is trying to grief potentially to get them killed to mobs.

We're not sure how this will work (unless someone can correct me?) - there may well be a mechanic that causes the 'killing blow' to pass back to the last player causing damage, say within X seconds.
Although I imagine this is the type of thing that will receive more focus during the Alpha tests.

Personally speaking however, for me it's all part of the "dangers of the world", and kind've fair game. As long as there is no significant difference in level.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption
Right under the picture withe the transitions we get the info that

Green players killed by mobs (the mob deals the killing blow) do not flag attacking players as corrupt, but since the exact health of another player is not known (outside of the same party, raid, alliance, or guild), attackers run the risk of killing the player and becoming corrupt.[58]

I agree that players must expect the danger coming from other players.
Players should be aware of who is around them and act accordingly. Not just expect that some group of players just politely observes the battle while that NPC maybe will drop valuable resources.

blat

Otr wrote: »

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Corruption
Right under the picture withe the transitions we get the info that

Green players killed by mobs (the mob deals the killing blow) do not flag attacking players as corrupt, but since the exact health of another player is not known (outside of the same party, raid, alliance, or guild), attackers run the risk of killing the player and becoming corrupt.[58]

Ah thanks. Interesting. So I guess there's your risk for both predator & prey. Seems a good system to me!

Otr wrote: »

I agree that players must expect the danger coming from other players.
Players should be aware of who is around them and act accordingly. Not just expect that some group of players just politely observes the battle while that NPC maybe will drop valuable resources.

100% this. Even when I'm not in PvP mode, just want to get some quest done etc.. you should have to keep an eye out. Aware of surroundings, even adapt the playstyle.
Eg: I'd be far more cautious with hp/mp levels while farming mobs with people nearby, more guarded with cooldowns etc. It's a vital aspect of the world even when the PvP doesn't happen.