My PvX != Your PvX

Basis: I prefer PvE over PvP so, in my mind, I'd like to see more balance between the systems.

Is this a fantasy, yes. I know logically that PvX for Ashes consists of a blend, a mixture if you will, of both elements. Therefore, I think that when some of us say "Ashes isn't really PvX", what we mean is that it isn't what we would think PvX would be (Equal measure of both in my opinion).

Do I want PvE only servers? No. I enjoy the risks that come with the PvP Systems in mind. Will I need a group of friends to play with because (even though I'm complimented for living in the Caravan stream) I'm a big scaredy cat when it comes to PvP? Absolutely!

All in all, I'm just trying to say that I think PvX can be considered more of a spectrum where some of us like the (in my opinion) PvP heavy version of PvX and I'm sure there are some that prefer a more PvE heavy version of PvX.

I plan to play Ashes all the same, but I had seen this topic floating around and wanted to discuss it, or share my thoughts.

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Dygz

blat wrote: »

The suggestion of pre-flagging as a combatant came partway through as a potential solution, is all.

I don't know why you keep repeating this as if I don't understand it.
I don't agree that Corruption needs a solution.
And I also have no interest in supporting more bonuses to PvPers - especially without also providing more bonuses to PvEers.
You asked me how I felt about the suggestion. I've given you my answer.
And then, for some reason, you don't want to accept my answer.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

By "ultimate goal" I mean "there's a story that you can complete". We'll even have instanced dungeons whose pure reason for existence is to let people complete said story.

I want to experience stories. Stories typically have endings.
But, I'm never seeking an "ultimate story".
I'm hoping more for a Neverending Story. Kinda like how soap operas continued with new stories for decades.

In Ashes, there will be dev curated stories - but there will also be player-generated stories as Nodes rise and fall. That's great story-telling, too.
"Who owns that Castle now? What happened to the previous Monarch?"

NiKr wrote: »

Yes, you can choose your own adventure (role), for it is gonna be a "role playing game", but there's gonna be a predetermined dev-created system-based "end" of the game. It'll most likely get prolonged through expansions and stuff, but that's not any different from "part 2"s or dlcs in other story games, so that's nothing new.

Ashes doesn't have an Endgame. Endgame is when you run out of quests/story and you're stuck in a static world with nothing to do except repeat the same dungeons and raids and kill the same bosses over and over and over again.
But Ashes is not a static world.
Verra changes significantly as Nodes rise and fall. As the Verran Seasons change. As the Events system progresses. And as the devs introduce new content quarterly.

Part 2s and DLCs are not new.
Especially now that most UE5 games are releasing new content quarterly via Battlepasses.
Which is one of the main reasons I've returned to playing WoW after 8+ years of being burnt out by the Endgame treadmill.

"Ultimate PvE Goal" is not something that PvEers are seeking as far as I know.
Endgame was just the limitation of devs not being able to create and implement new content at the same pace that gamers could race to the end of the provided content.
4 weeks to reach Endgame and then one to two years (or more) to wait for new content.

blat

Dygz wrote: »

blat wrote: »

The suggestion of pre-flagging as a combatant came partway through as a potential solution, is all.

I don't know why you keep repeating this as if I don't understand it.
I don't agree that Corruption needs a solution.
And I also have no interest in supporting more bonuses to PvPers - especially without also providing more bonuses to PvEers.
You asked me how I felt about the suggestion. I've given you my answer.
And then, for some reason, you don't want to accept my answer.

It could be writing style but I didn't get the impression it was even considered. The anti-pvp flag went up before the problem was even understood.

No worries, all good. Your playstyle seems very niche and this is in an area that seems pretty polar opposite to your gameplay anyway.

In other news you'll be amazed to hear I scored "100% killer" on this Bartle test. (I was actually.. I'm pretty into the economy side of things too).
47% explorer so we have that.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

And you can't see how "an MMORPG where you primarily or only fight against environmental factors" is super vague and not a definition of anything specific, without any context.

And yet the brackets "PvP MMORPG" and "PvE MMORPG" are each enough in itself to tell the bulk of the MMORPG population whether or not a game is worth them looking in to further or not.

It is not a full description of a game, it is an initial indicator to attract the right type of player, and inform the wrong type of player that the game is not for them.

If I saw a new MMORPG being advertised that said it was a PvP MMORPG, I know not to suggest it to Dygz, for example. I don't need to know anything more about the game to make that assertion.

Saying an MMORPG is PvX does nothing. It doesn't inform people of anything more than just saying it is an MMORPG. Sure, it tells people there is some PvE - but that is required to be an MMORPG. It also tells people there is some PvP, but that could well just be an arena system.

Your comments in regards to a random non-gamer are irrelevant here. To someone completely unfamiliar with a given sphere, you don't use acronyms, let alone acronyms of sphere specific concepts. To someone new to gaming, you explain the game to them and answer questions - you don't throw acronyms of foreign terms at them and expdct understanding

HybridSR

Ashes is a PvP game at its core.

After a decade of playing Lineage 2, I can safely say it doesn't matter if Steven says 200 times that it's PvX. The moment you're raiding and you get absolutely dumpstered by another party who PKs your healer and then the rest of your party when the Raid Boss you were fighting is on 5% HP (and trust me, it's going to happen a lot), you're going to quickly realize it's a PvP game and PvP friction+alliances/guild wars will dictate 90% of the game. Just because you can safely kill some instanced story bosses, it doesn't make it a PvX game. And by the way, I'd safely bet money that those instances will be completely irrelevant for end game and BIS items. 100% sure they will NEVER allow an instance boss to drop mats for BIS gear unless there's a fight (mass PvP) to get into that instance. It's all about competition and Steven has been telling everyone for years that not everyone can be a winner and how it's all about risk Vs. reward. There's obviously 0 risk in running an instance 40 times until you get what you need. That'd be literally the same as every other boring MMO in the market right now.

Most of Steven's inspiration comes from Lineage 2 and that game could also be considered "PvX" if that's the case, since they also had a few instances... but there was always a war to get into that instance, haha. The moment you're in the Open World (and everything that matters is in the open world, like contesting elites, bosses and even rare materials) you'll quickly realize it's a PvP game. Also, there's no "endgame" in a PvP game. The social aspect and the new conflicts, drama, egos, etc is what will keep the game fresh. That + whatever content they add that will always be contested via PvP

Lineage 2 was a PvP game, Ashes will be no different.

Dygz

blat wrote: »

It could be writing style but I didn't get the impression it was even considered. The anti-pvp flag went up before the problem was even understood.

It's not my writing: it's your bias and reading.
I considered it and immediately disagreed with it because PvPers already get effective bonuses dying while flagged Purple.

blat wrote: »

No worries, all good. Your playstyle seems very niche and this is in an area that seems pretty polar opposite to your gameplay anyway.
In other news you'll be amazed to hear I scored "100% killer" on this Bartle test. (I was actually.. I'm pretty into the economy side of things too).
47% explorer so we have that.

My playstyle is no more niche than yours. But if you scored 100% Killer, we pretty much have close to polar opposite playstyles. Especially, we are going to be on the polar opposite ends of interest in PvP.
My interest in killing stuff is not actually 0%, but my Bartle Score reflects my interests closely enough that it should make it easy for people to understand my general playstyle.

100% Killer is what I would expect for your Bartle Score based on your suggestions/additions to the Ashes design - even if it's not an exact reflection of your interests.
I would expect someone who finds the Ashes Corruption system to be too restrictive to have a Bartle Score with 100% - 85% Killer.

Dygz

HybridSR wrote: »

Ashes is a PvP game at its core.

After a decade of playing Lineage 2, I can safely say it doesn't matter if Steven says 200 times that it's PvX. The moment you're raiding and you get absolutely dumpstered by another party who PKs your healer and then the rest of your party when the Raid Boss you were fighting is on 5% HP (and trust me, it's going to happen a lot), you're going to quickly realize it's a PvP game and PvP friction+alliances/guild wars will dictate 90% of the game. Just because you can safely kill some instanced story bosses, it doesn't make it a PvX game. And by the way, I'd safely bet money that those instances will be completely irrelevant for end game and BIS items. 100% sure they will NEVER allow an instance boss to drop mats for BIS gear unless there's a fight (mass PvP) to get into that instance. It's all about competition and Steven has been telling everyone for years that not everyone can be a winner and how it's all about risk Vs. reward. There's obviously 0 risk in running an instance 40 times until you get what you need. That'd be literally the same as every other boring MMO in the market right now.

Most of Steven's inspiration comes from Lineage 2 and that game could also be considered "PvX" if that's the case, since they also had a few instances... but there was always a war to get into that instance, haha. The moment you're in the Open World (and everything that matters is in the open world, like contesting elites, bosses and even rare materials) you'll quickly realize it's a PvP game. Also, there's no "endgame" in a PvP game. The social aspect and the new conflicts, drama, egos, etc is what will keep the game fresh. That + whatever content they add that will always be contested via PvP

Lineage 2 was a PvP game, Ashes will be no different.

Yeah. This is pretty much my perspective.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not aware of a MEOW that has been released yet.

I feel like Foxhole is as close as we've seen to a meow. It's just a somewhat session-based meow. The game's world goes through tangible changes (both in landscape and in the things that exist in the game) and they are all player-driven. Players have roles ranging from "I just recycle scarp metal" to "I'm commanding large army maneuvers across several locations on the map, which include physically digging trenches, creating new logistics chains and pushing frontlines".

I know that you don't consider a game an "rpg" if its only rpgness is in the fact that people play roles, but to me Foxhole is a meowrpg in a ww2-like setting.

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes doesn't have an Endgame. Endgame is when you run out of quests/story and you're stuck in a static world with nothing to do except repeat the same dungeons and raids and kill the same bosses over and over and over again.
But Ashes is not a static world.
Verra changes significantly as Nodes rise and fall. As the Verran Seasons change. As the Events system progresses. And as the devs introduce new content quarterly.

As we've discussed this before, I'll believe it when I see it. Servers could completely stagnate because no one is having wars/siegs or cause there's simply not enough people to push and/or work to start them.

And neverending quests will have to be proven as well. I'd assume you're not talking about quests like "my cows are missing - go find my cows and bring them to me" or "I'm a weak old man and I can't cut trees - cut me down some trees". Cause unless Intrepid manage to implement AI-based in-depth quest creation - I doubt we'll have everquesting.

I play Mihoyo games, which, imo, are the best current representation of "live service games". Big updates every 6 weeks and massive updates every 12. With ginormous ones every year. All on top of extra-media content, tons of musical tracks with each patch and a huge plethora of unique minigames with almost every damn patch.

But even all of that gets consumed almost immediately and still requires huge teams to support. Unless Intrepid get to the size of Mihoyo (and their money btw, which they definitely never will) - I will not believe that they can provide everquesting that's more meaningful than "10 bearasses".

If they somehow prove me wrong - cool, I'll be all the better for it. But right now I see no way for them to do so. Though, as the neighboring thread is discussing, AI is getting to a point where designers might use it to do great things way faster. And considering that we're definitely yeaaars away from release - there's a small chance that Intrepid will implement it to get some good never-ending quests.

Dygz

Noaani wrote: »

And yet the brackets "PvP MMORPG" and "PvE MMORPG" alison enough in itself to tell the bulk of the MMORPG population whether or not a game is worth them looking in to further or not.

It is not a full description of a game, it is an initial indicator to attract the right type of player, and inform the wrong type of player that the game is not for them.

If I saw a new MMORPG being advertised that said it was a PvP MMORPG, I know not to suggest it to Dygz, for example. I don't need to know anything more about the game to make that assertion.

Saying an MMORPG is PvX does nothing. It doesn't inform people of anything more than just saying it is an MMORPG. Sure, it tells people there is some PvE - but that is required to be an MMORPG. It also tells people there is some PvP, but that could well just be an arena system.

Your comments in regards to a random non-gamer are irrelevant here. To someone completely unfamiliar with a given sphere, you don't use acronyms, let alone acronyms of sphere specific concepts. To someone new to gaming, you explain the game to them and answer questions - you don't throw acronyms of foreign terms at them and expect understanding

Exactly. Which is why my first question to Steven when we had him on the Ashen Forge was to compare Ashes PvP to EvE and ArcheAge... because those games are too PvP-centric for me - even though I sometimes like PvP when it's the equivalent of Sieges and Caravans. I could be OK with that much "PvX".
I'm not OK with large regions of the map auto-flagging for PvP because I'm at 87% Explorer on the Bartle Score with 0% Killer. So, telling me "Just don't go to that area of the map if you don't want to PvP there," means I'm just not going to play that game.
At that time, in 2018, Steven said the difference with Ashes is there are no areas that do not have Corruption.
So... the introduction of the Open Seas is a deal-breaker for my playstyle - but it makes a great deal of sense for Steven's obsession with Risk v Reward.

PvX doesn't tell me much because I like to flag for PvP sometimes. I enjoyed the Sieges in Alpha One. I would probably enjoy defending Caravans. So, theoretically, I could be a PvX enthusiast.
Large, permanent areas of auto-flag, free-for-all, Corruption-free PvP pushes Ashes over to the PvP-centric category for me. Especially when there are no large, permanent areas that are safe from PvP.
Compared to EQ/EQ2/WoW, Ashes is, at best somewhere in-between playing on a PvP-Optional server and a PvP server. The way Steven envisions PvX, there's even more PvP than on a EQ/EQ2/WoW PvP server because I think even on the PvP servers, there are safe zones in the Starting Areas and major cities.

In the early days, Steven used to say that Ashes is not a murderbox - because of Corruption.
I asked Steven which MMORPGs he considers to be a murderbox. He said he didn't know because he tends to stay away from murderbox games.
I scoffed - How can he say that he's staying away from a murderbox game if he can't list any MMORPGs that are a murderbox?? I said EvE is one for me.
He then said EvE could be a murderbox if you choose to go into certain areas, but Ashes doesn't have that.
He also said that Ashes is different than ArcheAge.
Because Ashes does not have any permanent areas that are free from the Corruption mechanic.
So... to me... adding in The Open Seas places Ashes in the same category as EvE and ArcheAge (and Lineage II) - which I think most people agree are PvP MMORPGs.

One could say there are some other PvX MMORPGs, but then I would want a list so I can ascertain whether I would place Ashes in that same category.

CROW3

I think Dygz and I have been going back and forth on the consensual v. non-consensual flagging points for what - 4 years now?

The summary takeaway is usually ‘A2 will explain a lot.’ 😆

My Killer % is relatively low (I’m a HIGH explorer), but I want to explore a dangerous world - players are a PART of that world not separate bystanders - and therefore players need to be a potential threat.

Dygz

Well, no.
4 years ago… all non-consensual PvP could be punished with Corruption. So, at that point, wait to see if Corruption works as a comfortable deterrent.

The addition of The Open Seas 2 years ago basically too much of the game auto-consent to non-consensual PvP just by logging in.
At that point, A2 testing for Corruption is irrelevant.

blat

CROW3 wrote: »

I want to explore a dangerous world - players are a PART of that world not separate bystanders - and therefore players need to be a potential threat.

Many here won't like it but this is why playing on a PvE server is to play the "lite" version of a game, "World of Warcraft without the War", which very likely only exist for financial reasons.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

We'll even have instanced dungeons whose pure reason for existence is to let people complete said story.

I've not seen this in any MMORPG at all - ever. I have never seen content in a game that is purely for storytelling.

This won't be a thing in Ashes.

Even if there are instances tied to story in the game, the reason people will be running that content is not to complete the story - it is to get the gear that is awarded either along the way, or at the end. This gear will then be used in PvP to remove other players, be that in wars, sieges, caravans or open world PvP.

Dygz

Yep.
I’m also a Casual-Challenge/Hardcore-Time player.
I don’t play RPGs for Risk or adrenaline-rush or competition.
I play RPGs for cooperative Storytelling - to emulate living out the stories of a Fantasy Novel.
I’m not at all interested in PvPing Gandalf or Bilbo or Aragorn. And, if I’m playing any RPG, I’m also going to be striving as much as possible to Stealth past combat or Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate out of combat with opponents.

When I play Nightingale, I play on Easy.
I have 400+ hours on that game and it’s only been out 6-7 weeks.
Fantmx and Neuro sometimes say, “Your Gear Score is high enough that you would be fine on Medium or even Hard.”
“I would be. But, Easy is good enough and gives me plenty of good story adventures.”
The harder modes basically just make the combat last longer and I’m not particularly interested in longer combat. I’d rather be doing other stuff than be stuck in combat.
And, since I’m a Carebear, I’d prefer to not be in combat or in conflict with others. (Especially not other players.)

Seems like CROWE3 is closer to a Hardcore-Challenge playstyle. And he’s onboard with Steven’s obsession with Risk v Reward.
I was originally excited when the 2nd Pillar was Meaningful Conflict. Now that the 2nd Pillar is Risk v Reward, I have little interest in playing because I’m not really motivated by Risk v Reward.

And, yeah, I’m not really a fan of the war aspects of World of Warcraft. That game is not necessarily focused on war.
It’s actually about the world that is the setting for the Warcraft RTS series.
Originally about the wars between the Humans and Orcs -Alliance v Horde- they have finally reached a truce and have united against a greater enemy.
Which is exactly what my Carebear heart has always desired.

My question for the past 7 years has been, “How do you get all these MMORPG fans that typically play on different server types to play on just one server type?”
I think the answer remains - you don’t.

When Jeffrey was Lead Game Designer, it seemed as though the target audience was fairly broad in terms of playstyles.
But, now it’s clear that the target audience is really just the fans of Lineage II, ArcheAge and EvE.
Which should still be a sufficient population to keep the game running for 10 years or more.

The WoW PvE servers exist because the vast majority of RPG players prefer PvE rather than PvP.

Otr

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

And you can't see how "an MMORPG where you primarily or only fight against environmental factors" is super vague and not a definition of anything specific, without any context.

And yet the brackets "PvP MMORPG" and "PvE MMORPG" are each enough in itself to tell the bulk of the MMORPG population whether or not a game is worth them looking in to further or not.

It is not a full description of a game, it is an initial indicator to attract the right type of player, and inform the wrong type of player that the game is not for them.

If I saw a new MMORPG being advertised that said it was a PvP MMORPG, I know not to suggest it to Dygz, for example. I don't need to know anything more about the game to make that assertion.

Saying an MMORPG is PvX does nothing. It doesn't inform people of anything more than just saying it is an MMORPG. Sure, it tells people there is some PvE - but that is required to be an MMORPG. It also tells people there is some PvP, but that could well just be an arena system.

Your comments in regards to a random non-gamer are irrelevant here. To someone completely unfamiliar with a given sphere, you don't use acronyms, let alone acronyms of sphere specific concepts. To someone new to gaming, you explain the game to them and answer questions - you don't throw acronyms of foreign terms at them and expdct understanding

To add to the "Saying an MMORPG is PvX does nothing".
That happens because we do not see MMORPGs with PvP, PvE and PvX servers.
We either see having PvP, PvE and maybe RP, or only one server type with all content accessible when you login with one character.

blat

Dygz wrote: »

And, since I’m a Carebear, I’d prefer to not be in combat or in conflict with others.

Except in the arena of opinions

Dygz wrote: »

My question for the past 7 years has been, “How do you get all these MMORPG fans that typically play on different server types to play on just one server type?”
I think the answer remains - you don’t.

You may be well be right. Personally I take it in good faith that they are actually trying, though.
Rather than PvX being simply "meaningless hype", I think it genuinely signals intent.

Dygz wrote: »

The WoW PvE servers exist because the vast majority of RPG players prefer PvE rather than PvP.

= $$$
It's a diluted version of the game made to pander to the masses.

Take the music charts. What do you think of the music that the vast majority of listeners enjoy?

Otr

Dygz wrote: »

Well, no.
4 years ago… all non-consensual PvP could be punished with Corruption. So, at that point, wait to see if Corruption works as a comfortable deterrent.

The addition of The Open Seas 2 years ago basically too much of the game auto-consent to non-consensual PvP just by logging in.
At that point, A2 testing for Corruption is irrelevant.

I guess I start to understand why this change bothers you.
By adding the open sea, all those players who would spend most of their time playing there are potentially different from those who spend their time on land. It is like having 2 different audiences.
But so far IS didn't placed any nodes into the open sea, to have so called pirate bases and the open sea is still separated from the node ZoI and whatever they do there do not help their nodes. This is consistent with the corrupted players having no way to store items and loot into chests, anywhere.
To keep the initial design philosophy, the open sea should not have the best drops from sea monsters or fishing. Then you can say you have no reason to go there at all. If that will happen or not, not even Alpha 2 can show because such things can be added anytime, even after release.
So compared to EvE where you can have player made stations in null sector, AoC prevents that. A player spending all his time in the ocean will not help his node and will not get node specific currencies either.

Otr

CROW3 wrote: »

I think Dygz and I have been going back and forth on the consensual v. non-consensual flagging points for what - 4 years now?

The summary takeaway is usually ‘A2 will explain a lot.’ 😆

My Killer % is relatively low (I’m a HIGH explorer), but I want to explore a dangerous world - players are a PART of that world not separate bystanders - and therefore players need to be a potential threat.

You have to be a killer too, and offer the same experience to other players who want to enjoy a dangerous world. That is ensured by the resource scarcity. You see players from other metro nations transporting those rare resources toward their freeholds or nodes, you have to prevent that. That does not make you a killer, is by game design.

Otr

Also exploration and it's reward to know the map better is to be able to do something in that area.
If is danger because PvP then you want to do PvP.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I've not seen this in any MMORPG at all - ever. I have never seen content in a game that is purely for storytelling.

This won't be a thing in Ashes.

Even if there are instances tied to story in the game, the reason people will be running that content is not to complete the story - it is to get the gear that is awarded either along the way, or at the end. This gear will then be used in PvP to remove other players, be that in wars, sieges, caravans or open world PvP.

I'm fairly sure FF14 is built on story dungeons. And when I played the little of it that I did, the gear in those dungeons was useless, because I had gotten better stuff in other quests already. Same was true for even the little that I played of Tera.

And the gear part will supposedly be even more true in Ashes, cause open world gear will be better than stuff from instances. There's a chance that Steven decides to do a "everyone gets rewarded" thing with story dungeons, but I personally don't see that happening.

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