Maybe we could make a "quiver" instead, which would take a load of wood (for the arrows) etc etc. But then for gameplay purposes it provides infinite arrows. Perhaps it needs repairing (restocking) from time to time like most gear.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bows Bows will not require ammo. Instead the developers are considering per-use consumables/buffs that can be applied to weapons.[9]
We are thinking about unique buffs that can be applied to your weapons that are on a per-instance basis of the attack; so, for example, you might have a quiver that you can activate on a cooldown, and that quiver might apply some type of rider effect on the basic weapon attack that you have equipped. Or, you might have some type of alchemical consumable that applies it to your melee weapon. Those I think are interesting because they add an element of horizontal gameplay, depending on the adversary you're facing or the challenge you're up against.[9] – Steven Sharif
Im not opposed to the idea of per use ammo, however they have to be careful how it's implemented.
If the benefit is very large, then they effectively become required for pvp. If they are effectively required, then you now effectively have crafted ammo.
Edit: As for making generic ammo, no thanks. I don't miss those days in older MMOs.
Ammo in MMOs just should not be a thing, unless all classes have the same hindrance and IS found a way to make that inpactful and fun. Doubt that can be done.
Ammo in MMOs just should not be a thing, unless all classes have the same hindrance and IS found a way to make that inpactful and fun. Doubt that can be done.
Can't all classes have their own, different hindrances? They don't all have to balance out either. Variety is what it's all about, not this obsessive need to balance every detail.
Can't all classes have their own, different hindrances?
Problem is : i never. NEEEVEEER - used all my Rogue Abilities in WoW Vanilla.
Why ? Because it required Ressources i was not in the Mood to farm all the time. ^.^;"
I imagine it will be the same for Hunter in Ashes of Creation. ^.^;"
Ammo in MMOs just should not be a thing, unless all classes have the same hindrance and IS found a way to make that inpactful and fun. Doubt that can be done.
Can't all classes have their own, different hindrances? They don't all have to balance out either. Variety is what it's all about, not this obsessive need to balance every detail.
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Ammo in MMOs just should not be a thing, unless all classes have the same hindrance and IS found a way to make that inpactful and fun. Doubt that can be done.
Can't all classes have their own, different hindrances? They don't all have to balance out either. Variety is what it's all about, not this obsessive need to balance every detail.
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
It's exactly this. I'm all for believability in games, but not at the cost of gameplay.
In other games, I've been in some dungeons for hours. I've no idea just how many arrows have been fired, but it must be well up into the multiple-hundreds, and that's not even taking into account the DoT-type skills where a hail of arrows falls from the sky for X-seconds. If you make it so that each arrow has to come from your pack, then there's no space left for anything else in that pack, cos the choice is to either collect loot or be able to play the game. And once you inevitably run out of arrows, your Group DPS drops due to you no longer being able to contribute. Either that, or the group has to wait 5-10mins for you to leave the dungeon, go and craft more, and then join back up again.
If the Quiver mentioned above is an actual item, then using it would stop all archers from using anything else in that item-slot. Either the Quiver would be so powerful that all archers would take it and then the other players would whinge and bitch about it, or it'd be underpowered compared to the other items that could go in the slot and so would be irrelevant.
Ammo count is fine for Solo Games or Small-Group Games. It just doesn't belong in MMOs.
Ammo in MMOs just should not be a thing, unless all classes have the same hindrance and IS found a way to make that inpactful and fun. Doubt that can be done.
Can't all classes have their own, different hindrances? They don't all have to balance out either. Variety is what it's all about, not this obsessive need to balance every detail.
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
It's exactly this. I'm all for believability in games, but not at the cost of gameplay.
In other games, I've been in some dungeons for hours. I've no idea just how many arrows have been fired, but it must be well up into the multiple-hundreds, and that's not even taking into account the DoT-type skills where a hail of arrows falls from the sky for X-seconds. If you make it so that each arrow has to come from your pack, then there's no space left for anything else in that pack, cos the choice is to either collect loot or be able to play the game. And once you inevitably run out of arrows, your Group DPS drops due to you no longer being able to contribute. Either that, or the group has to wait 5-10mins for you to leave the dungeon, go and craft more, and then join back up again.
If the Quiver mentioned above is an actual item, then using it would stop all archers from using anything else in that item-slot. Either the Quiver would be so powerful that all archers would take it and then the other players would whinge and bitch about it, or it'd be underpowered compared to the other items that could go in the slot and so would be irrelevant.
Ammo count is fine for Solo Games or Small-Group Games. It just doesn't belong in MMOs.
Yeah fair. Tbh I'm pretty comfortable that Intrepid will be able to add enough immersive flavour without hampering gameplay too much. I was never a fan of stacking arrows per se, but don't mind there being some gear requirement along those lines (the quiver etc, as long as it doesn't fall into the traps you've described).
I just really hope the classes don't become too comparable. IE all the: "If Ranger has cost X then the others should, too".
IMO a big part of the reason Classic WoW still has so much pull is the classes started off genuinely different. Each with their owns pains/costs in the form of reagents, mount costs, long difficult questlines etc (and not at all equal!). But that flavour and genuine uniqueness keeps us coming back.
Eventually of course they caved and obsessively balanced everything, turning all classes into an amalgam of each other. One of those "careful what you wish for" moments.
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Its completely binary. It you don't have ammo you can't play. Its essentially an on or off switch.
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
I'm not necessarily arguing for it, just making the point that other classes would have their own time/gold sinks.
And, again, I'm not talking about topping up stacks of arrows necessarily.
0
Options
KalnazzarMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Its completely binary. It you don't have ammo you can't play. Its essentially an on or off switch.
Ok I finally have to ask since this one has gone on for a while...
If bows (and probably even quivers) have Durability, doesn't everyone already 'have ammo'?
I admit that I'm only familiar with durability loss on weapons from 3 games, but in all of those games, when the weapon's durability hit 0, it lost at least 65% of its effectiveness.
On average, a weapon's durability would last for 'one adventure' (I'd give the time in hours but it differs by game).
So, I don't get the discussion about the ammo itself, exactly. If weapons have durability, then everyone 'has to replenish or repair something'. If quivers have durability, then same deal. You either carry extra ones, or materials to restore durability.
I feel like the difference between 'Bodkin Arrow x99' and 'Bodkin Arrow Quiver, durability 100/100', is fairly minimal, what am I missing here (other than the fact that arrows tend to be consumed on every shot, but most of this discussion doesn't seem to be about that aspect).
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
Haha spot on.
0
Options
KalnazzarMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
Haha spot on.
Why would anyone opt to play an MMORPG if they find such gameplay enjoyable?
0
Options
KalnazzarMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
Haha spot on.
Why would anyone opt to play an MMORPG if they find such gameplay enjoyable?
I know...
An interwoven economy where we use materials to produce tools, to become better gatherers, to collect more materials.. etc
But... arrows are a bridge too far. That's where I draw the line.
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
That's not a valid point. What consumable does a warrior need for his sword. Done. Why would an archer need one for his bow if a warrior does not? That's the only point. Ok let's kick the Archer out of the team. He is out of arrows. Let's not invite the ranger for this deep dungeon run. He will either run out of arrows, or we will need to wait an extra 20 min as he runs to town to get enough for this run. Let's not invite X ranger, he only uses store bought arrows and a rogue with blue daggers will do more damage. So again no ty.
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
That's not a valid point. What consumable does a warrior need for his sword. Done. Why would an archer need one for his bow if a warrior does not? That's the only point. Ok let's kick the Archer out of the team. He is out of arrows. Let's not invite the ranger for this deep dungeon run. He will either run out of arrows, or we will need to wait an extra 20 min as he runs to town to get enough for this run. Let's not invite X ranger, he only uses store bought arrows and a rogue with blue daggers will do more damage. So again no ty.
Probably Iron.
Maybe steel.
Who knows exactly how a Sword's durability is restored, at this point, honestly...
The developers are considering per-use consumables/buffs that can be applied to weapons.
Simple solution, if you worry that there is not enough items for crafters to craft. Lineage 2 had soulshots and spiritshots for physical/magical weapons correspondingly. Crafters crafted them, all classes used them. Maybe we'll see something similar in Ashes of Creation too.
From a cost-balance perspective, you could have melee's weapons degrade faster on use than bows. I mean, this makes sense as you are beating on a mob with it. Enjoy bringing 3-5 weapons/shields for a deep dungeon run.
Other ranged classes could need "magic crystals" as ammo for wands. Not sure at this point if a magic staff can ranged auto-attack.
Or...we can just do without an arrow counter, and archers can have the same weapon consumables as other classes (IE, oils and sharpening stones) and the same short term potion needs (buff and/or mana pots)
Explosive arrows, or other "special effect" arrows IMO should be abilities.
F-no to L2 shots. The ultimate in more gold = more damage (and thus encourages gold buying). And I say this as someone who got filthy rich selling shots at the initial release of L2, running a macro through the night and work day that made shots while my store sold the shots made the night before.
From a cost-balance perspective, you could have melee's weapons degrade faster on use than bows. I mean, this makes sense as you are beating on a mob with it. Enjoy bringing 3-5 weapons/shields for a deep dungeon run.
Other ranged classes could need "magic crystals" as ammo for wands. Not sure at this point if a magic staff can ranged auto-attack.
Or...we can just do without an arrow counter, and archers can have the same weapon consumables as other classes (IE, oils and sharpening stones) and the same short term potion needs (buff and/or mana pots)
Explosive arrows, or other "special effect" arrows IMO should be abilities.
F-no to L2 shots. The ultimate in more gold = more damage (and thus encourages gold buying). And I say this as someone who got filthy rich selling shots at the initial release of L2, running a macro through the night and work day that made shots while my store sold the shots made the night before.
This post is a good example of how the options are not simply: having to carry a tonne of arrows Vs no ammo.
It's a game, in development. Only really limited by imagination here. I'm sure there are a load of nice middle-ground options without ruining gameplay
F-no to L2 shots. The ultimate in more gold = more damage (and thus encourages gold buying)
If you really played L2, then you know for a fact that it has absolutely nothing to do with RMT. Even on hardcore low-rate servers buying them was not an issue at all
I don't think bringing realism aspects to this particular discussion is very productive.
All weapons need to be taken care of. Swords need cleaning and oiling, sharpening to repair small nicks and bends, and sometimes to see a smith for larger repairs. Bows needs waxing of both the bow and strings, and sometimes a new string. Mustn't get wet nor dry out in the sun, etc. That's what the ingame repairs are a proxy for.
All the classes are mana-based, and they all need to use the same health and mana potions, and whatever else helps them in combat, like food-buffs and consumable weapon coatings, so the cost is roughly even there as well to begin with. (I am now thinking of magical coatings for wands and tomes.. I see some possibilities there).
What we are really left with is the cost of combat in terms of resources and time to prepare. Requiring bow users to have significant extra consumable costs compared to any other weapon use is just bad game design, especially if it is possible to run out and then be completely useless until they run back and get more.
On a tangent, we often see issues with tank classes as well, with them having much higher repair costs than other classes, because games forget to lower their equipment durability loss compared to those other classes, even though the game is designed around the tanks taking the hits. That's also bad game design.
A game doesn't have to be fair, but the unfairness should primarily come from player actions, not systemic issues due to bad design that the players can do nothing about. Craftable arrows fall into that category.
A game doesn't have to be fair, but the unfairness should primarily come from player actions, not systemic issues due to bad design that the players can do nothing about. Craftable arrows fall into that category.
I just think the 'unfairness' itself can be balanced among the classes, so even when they're not directly comparable it's still roughly fair in the end. Aka class flavour.
In wow, two classes received free mounts @ 40. All other classes had crippling costs to pay.
But the other classes had their own time/money sinks. Ammo/poisons/shards to manage. Repair costs etc.
There are a tonne of ways to give flavour (without being too annoying), and still keep it loosely "fair" across the classes.
I don't think bringing realism aspects to this particular discussion is very productive.
All weapons need to be taken care of. Swords need cleaning and oiling, sharpening to repair small nicks and bends, and sometimes to see a smith for larger repairs. Bows needs waxing of both the bow and strings, and sometimes a new string. Mustn't get wet nor dry out in the sun, etc. That's what the ingame repairs are a proxy for.
All the classes are mana-based, and they all need to use the same health and mana potions, and whatever else helps them in combat, like food-buffs and consumable weapon coatings, so the cost is roughly even there as well to begin with. (I am now thinking of magical coatings for wands and tomes.. I see some possibilities there).
What we are really left with is the cost of combat in terms of resources and time to prepare. Requiring bow users to have significant extra consumable costs compared to any other weapon use is just bad game design, especially if it is possible to run out and then be completely useless until they run back and get more.
On a tangent, we often see issues with tank classes as well, with them having much higher repair costs than other classes, because games forget to lower their equipment durability loss compared to those other classes, even though the game is designed around the tanks taking the hits. That's also bad game design.
A game doesn't have to be fair, but the unfairness should primarily come from player actions, not systemic issues due to bad design that the players can do nothing about. Craftable arrows fall into that category.
Especially when the rangers loss is anothers players gain.
0
Options
KalnazzarMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
That's not a valid point. What consumable does a warrior need for his sword. Done. Why would an archer need one for his bow if a warrior does not? That's the only point. Ok let's kick the Archer out of the team. He is out of arrows. Let's not invite the ranger for this deep dungeon run. He will either run out of arrows, or we will need to wait an extra 20 min as he runs to town to get enough for this run. Let's not invite X ranger, he only uses store bought arrows and a rogue with blue daggers will do more damage. So again no ty.
Wow, really stretching there with the 'warrior needs no consumables for his sword' argument. Let's break it down. So, according to your logic, if a warrior doesn't need consumables, why should an archer bother, right? Let's just kick out the archer from the team because, oh no, he might run out of arrows! Can't have that inconvenience, can we? And heaven forbid we invite a ranger; they might actually rely on store-bought arrows!
Damage buff oils? Elemental oils for a fiery touch? Now we're talking! And sharpening stones for those marathon fights? Brilliant!
But hold on a second. Here's the deal: I'm all for these additions. Unlike some, I don't mind putting in the effort. Farming? Bring it on. It's actually quite serene, you know, soaking in the in-game scenery. Unlike those elitists who think taking a breath will bring about doomsday.
So, thanks for the lecture, but I'll pass on the unnecessary anxiety. I'll be over here, enjoying my peaceful gameplay and taking my time, while the rushers burn themselves out. Cheers!
Wow, really stretching there with the 'warrior needs no consumables for his sword' argument. Let's break it down. So, according to your logic, if a warrior doesn't need consumables, why should an archer bother, right? Let's just kick out the archer from the team because, oh no, he might run out of arrows! Can't have that inconvenience, can we? And heaven forbid we invite a ranger; they might actually rely on store-bought arrows!
Damage buff oils? Elemental oils for a fiery touch? Now we're talking! And sharpening stones for those marathon fights? Brilliant!
But hold on a second. Here's the deal: I'm all for these additions. Unlike some, I don't mind putting in the effort. Farming? Bring it on. It's actually quite serene, you know, soaking in the in-game scenery. Unlike those elitists who think taking a breath will bring about doomsday.
So, thanks for the lecture, but I'll pass on the unnecessary anxiety. I'll be over here, enjoying my peaceful gameplay and taking my time, while the rushers burn themselves out. Cheers!
Bruh, I said it once and I have no problem with saying it again. If you have something constructive to say, then by all means, say it. But don't copy-paste these ChatGPT garbage comments with little to no meaning
People be like lets try to make this work just cause even though the devs could spend the time making actual good and interesting systems and not forcing down consumable ammo for no reason.
Comments
If the benefit is very large, then they effectively become required for pvp. If they are effectively required, then you now effectively have crafted ammo.
Edit: As for making generic ammo, no thanks. I don't miss those days in older MMOs.
Can't all classes have their own, different hindrances? They don't all have to balance out either. Variety is what it's all about, not this obsessive need to balance every detail.
Problem is : i never. NEEEVEEER - used all my Rogue Abilities in WoW Vanilla.
Why ? Because it required Ressources i was not in the Mood to farm all the time. ^.^;"
I imagine it will be the same for Hunter in Ashes of Creation. ^.^;"
But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are:
1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience.
2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost.
It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
It's exactly this. I'm all for believability in games, but not at the cost of gameplay.
In other games, I've been in some dungeons for hours. I've no idea just how many arrows have been fired, but it must be well up into the multiple-hundreds, and that's not even taking into account the DoT-type skills where a hail of arrows falls from the sky for X-seconds. If you make it so that each arrow has to come from your pack, then there's no space left for anything else in that pack, cos the choice is to either collect loot or be able to play the game. And once you inevitably run out of arrows, your Group DPS drops due to you no longer being able to contribute. Either that, or the group has to wait 5-10mins for you to leave the dungeon, go and craft more, and then join back up again.
If the Quiver mentioned above is an actual item, then using it would stop all archers from using anything else in that item-slot. Either the Quiver would be so powerful that all archers would take it and then the other players would whinge and bitch about it, or it'd be underpowered compared to the other items that could go in the slot and so would be irrelevant.
Ammo count is fine for Solo Games or Small-Group Games. It just doesn't belong in MMOs.
Yeah fair. Tbh I'm pretty comfortable that Intrepid will be able to add enough immersive flavour without hampering gameplay too much. I was never a fan of stacking arrows per se, but don't mind there being some gear requirement along those lines (the quiver etc, as long as it doesn't fall into the traps you've described).
I just really hope the classes don't become too comparable. IE all the: "If Ranger has cost X then the others should, too".
IMO a big part of the reason Classic WoW still has so much pull is the classes started off genuinely different. Each with their owns pains/costs in the form of reagents, mount costs, long difficult questlines etc (and not at all equal!). But that flavour and genuine uniqueness keeps us coming back.
Eventually of course they caved and obsessively balanced everything, turning all classes into an amalgam of each other. One of those "careful what you wish for" moments.
Its completely binary. It you don't have ammo you can't play. Its essentially an on or off switch.
Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else.
It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
I'm not necessarily arguing for it, just making the point that other classes would have their own time/gold sinks.
And, again, I'm not talking about topping up stacks of arrows necessarily.
It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
Ok I finally have to ask since this one has gone on for a while...
If bows (and probably even quivers) have Durability, doesn't everyone already 'have ammo'?
I admit that I'm only familiar with durability loss on weapons from 3 games, but in all of those games, when the weapon's durability hit 0, it lost at least 65% of its effectiveness.
On average, a weapon's durability would last for 'one adventure' (I'd give the time in hours but it differs by game).
So, I don't get the discussion about the ammo itself, exactly. If weapons have durability, then everyone 'has to replenish or repair something'. If quivers have durability, then same deal. You either carry extra ones, or materials to restore durability.
I feel like the difference between 'Bodkin Arrow x99' and 'Bodkin Arrow Quiver, durability 100/100', is fairly minimal, what am I missing here (other than the fact that arrows tend to be consumed on every shot, but most of this discussion doesn't seem to be about that aspect).
Haha spot on.
Why would anyone opt to play an MMORPG if they find such gameplay enjoyable?
I know...
An interwoven economy where we use materials to produce tools, to become better gatherers, to collect more materials.. etc
But... arrows are a bridge too far. That's where I draw the line.
That's not a valid point. What consumable does a warrior need for his sword. Done. Why would an archer need one for his bow if a warrior does not? That's the only point. Ok let's kick the Archer out of the team. He is out of arrows. Let's not invite the ranger for this deep dungeon run. He will either run out of arrows, or we will need to wait an extra 20 min as he runs to town to get enough for this run. Let's not invite X ranger, he only uses store bought arrows and a rogue with blue daggers will do more damage. So again no ty.
Probably Iron.
Maybe steel.
Who knows exactly how a Sword's durability is restored, at this point, honestly...
Simple solution, if you worry that there is not enough items for crafters to craft. Lineage 2 had soulshots and spiritshots for physical/magical weapons correspondingly. Crafters crafted them, all classes used them. Maybe we'll see something similar in Ashes of Creation too.
Other ranged classes could need "magic crystals" as ammo for wands. Not sure at this point if a magic staff can ranged auto-attack.
Or...we can just do without an arrow counter, and archers can have the same weapon consumables as other classes (IE, oils and sharpening stones) and the same short term potion needs (buff and/or mana pots)
Explosive arrows, or other "special effect" arrows IMO should be abilities.
F-no to L2 shots. The ultimate in more gold = more damage (and thus encourages gold buying). And I say this as someone who got filthy rich selling shots at the initial release of L2, running a macro through the night and work day that made shots while my store sold the shots made the night before.
This post is a good example of how the options are not simply: having to carry a tonne of arrows Vs no ammo.
It's a game, in development. Only really limited by imagination here. I'm sure there are a load of nice middle-ground options without ruining gameplay
All weapons need to be taken care of. Swords need cleaning and oiling, sharpening to repair small nicks and bends, and sometimes to see a smith for larger repairs. Bows needs waxing of both the bow and strings, and sometimes a new string. Mustn't get wet nor dry out in the sun, etc. That's what the ingame repairs are a proxy for.
All the classes are mana-based, and they all need to use the same health and mana potions, and whatever else helps them in combat, like food-buffs and consumable weapon coatings, so the cost is roughly even there as well to begin with. (I am now thinking of magical coatings for wands and tomes.. I see some possibilities there).
What we are really left with is the cost of combat in terms of resources and time to prepare. Requiring bow users to have significant extra consumable costs compared to any other weapon use is just bad game design, especially if it is possible to run out and then be completely useless until they run back and get more.
On a tangent, we often see issues with tank classes as well, with them having much higher repair costs than other classes, because games forget to lower their equipment durability loss compared to those other classes, even though the game is designed around the tanks taking the hits. That's also bad game design.
A game doesn't have to be fair, but the unfairness should primarily come from player actions, not systemic issues due to bad design that the players can do nothing about. Craftable arrows fall into that category.
I just think the 'unfairness' itself can be balanced among the classes, so even when they're not directly comparable it's still roughly fair in the end. Aka class flavour.
In wow, two classes received free mounts @ 40. All other classes had crippling costs to pay.
But the other classes had their own time/money sinks. Ammo/poisons/shards to manage. Repair costs etc.
There are a tonne of ways to give flavour (without being too annoying), and still keep it loosely "fair" across the classes.
Especially when the rangers loss is anothers players gain.
Wow, really stretching there with the 'warrior needs no consumables for his sword' argument. Let's break it down. So, according to your logic, if a warrior doesn't need consumables, why should an archer bother, right? Let's just kick out the archer from the team because, oh no, he might run out of arrows! Can't have that inconvenience, can we? And heaven forbid we invite a ranger; they might actually rely on store-bought arrows!
Damage buff oils? Elemental oils for a fiery touch? Now we're talking! And sharpening stones for those marathon fights? Brilliant!
But hold on a second. Here's the deal: I'm all for these additions. Unlike some, I don't mind putting in the effort. Farming? Bring it on. It's actually quite serene, you know, soaking in the in-game scenery. Unlike those elitists who think taking a breath will bring about doomsday.
So, thanks for the lecture, but I'll pass on the unnecessary anxiety. I'll be over here, enjoying my peaceful gameplay and taking my time, while the rushers burn themselves out. Cheers!
But don't copy-paste these ChatGPT garbage comments with little to no meaning
Quiver durability is all we need.