blat wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced? I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are: 1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience. 2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost. It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department.
Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced?
nanfoodle wrote: » blat wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced? I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are: 1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience. 2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost. It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department. Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else. It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no.
Diamaht wrote: » blat wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced? I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are: 1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience. 2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost. It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department. Its completely binary. It you don't have ammo you can't play. Its essentially an on or off switch.
Kalnazzar wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » blat wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced? I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are: 1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience. 2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost. It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department. Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else. It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no. It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing?
blat wrote: » Kalnazzar wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » blat wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced? I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are: 1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience. 2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost. It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department. Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else. It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no. It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing? Haha spot on.
Kalnazzar wrote: » blat wrote: » Kalnazzar wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » blat wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced? I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are: 1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience. 2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost. It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department. Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else. It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no. It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing? Haha spot on.
Kalnazzar wrote: » blat wrote: » Kalnazzar wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » blat wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced? I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are: 1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience. 2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost. It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department. Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else. It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no. It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing? Haha spot on. Why would anyone opt to play an MMORPG if they find such gameplay enjoyable?
nanfoodle wrote: » Kalnazzar wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » blat wrote: » Diamaht wrote: » But what does ammo add to the game for the Ranger? Without it they basically can't play the game, how is that fair or balanced? I just don't think it's a binary thing; ammo or no ammo. Someone has already linked the quiver quote from Steven, but my points are: 1) It being a game we're only limited by imagination, of course they could come up with some middle-ground concept that gives ranger that bit of flavour without too much inconvenience. 2) The point about balance. That MMOs go quickly downhill when we all insist that every class gets an equivalent ability, or suffers an equivalent cost. It needs some balance in a vague overall sense yes but not parity in every department. Having one class hindered by ammo is just nuts, all so a crafter can feel warm and Fuzzy selling arrows. That crafter can get warm Fuzzies making something else. It's also unfair Rangers need to be forced between having less cash flow because they have to buy crafted arrows, or be forced to pick fletching as their only option for crafting and have to trade time crafting to keep playing, while other classes just go play. This is unbalanced for so many reasons. Just no. It's really absurd to entertain arguments like this. While we're discussing it, why not have weapons magically appear for all classes? Imagine if weapons simply materialized in the character's hand through sheer mental will, eliminating the need for players to engage in professions like blacksmithing to craft their gear. Additionally, they wouldn't have to go through the hassle of visiting auction houses to purchase equipment. And why stop there? Let's give everyone magic armor that automatically equips onto their character, sparing them the effort of gathering resources like ore, sticks, and feathers. Taking it even further, we could automate everything so players no longer need to bother with mundane actions like right-clicking the mouse button or pressing keys. Doesn't that sound enticing? That's not a valid point. What consumable does a warrior need for his sword. Done. Why would an archer need one for his bow if a warrior does not? That's the only point. Ok let's kick the Archer out of the team. He is out of arrows. Let's not invite the ranger for this deep dungeon run. He will either run out of arrows, or we will need to wait an extra 20 min as he runs to town to get enough for this run. Let's not invite X ranger, he only uses store bought arrows and a rogue with blue daggers will do more damage. So again no ty.
Spif wrote: » From a cost-balance perspective, you could have melee's weapons degrade faster on use than bows. I mean, this makes sense as you are beating on a mob with it. Enjoy bringing 3-5 weapons/shields for a deep dungeon run. Other ranged classes could need "magic crystals" as ammo for wands. Not sure at this point if a magic staff can ranged auto-attack. Or...we can just do without an arrow counter, and archers can have the same weapon consumables as other classes (IE, oils and sharpening stones) and the same short term potion needs (buff and/or mana pots) Explosive arrows, or other "special effect" arrows IMO should be abilities. F-no to L2 shots. The ultimate in more gold = more damage (and thus encourages gold buying). And I say this as someone who got filthy rich selling shots at the initial release of L2, running a macro through the night and work day that made shots while my store sold the shots made the night before.
Spif wrote: » F-no to L2 shots. The ultimate in more gold = more damage (and thus encourages gold buying)
Nerror wrote: » A game doesn't have to be fair, but the unfairness should primarily come from player actions, not systemic issues due to bad design that the players can do nothing about. Craftable arrows fall into that category.
Nerror wrote: » I don't think bringing realism aspects to this particular discussion is very productive. All weapons need to be taken care of. Swords need cleaning and oiling, sharpening to repair small nicks and bends, and sometimes to see a smith for larger repairs. Bows needs waxing of both the bow and strings, and sometimes a new string. Mustn't get wet nor dry out in the sun, etc. That's what the ingame repairs are a proxy for. All the classes are mana-based, and they all need to use the same health and mana potions, and whatever else helps them in combat, like food-buffs and consumable weapon coatings, so the cost is roughly even there as well to begin with. (I am now thinking of magical coatings for wands and tomes.. I see some possibilities there). What we are really left with is the cost of combat in terms of resources and time to prepare. Requiring bow users to have significant extra consumable costs compared to any other weapon use is just bad game design, especially if it is possible to run out and then be completely useless until they run back and get more. On a tangent, we often see issues with tank classes as well, with them having much higher repair costs than other classes, because games forget to lower their equipment durability loss compared to those other classes, even though the game is designed around the tanks taking the hits. That's also bad game design. A game doesn't have to be fair, but the unfairness should primarily come from player actions, not systemic issues due to bad design that the players can do nothing about. Craftable arrows fall into that category.
Kalnazzar wrote: » Wow, really stretching there with the 'warrior needs no consumables for his sword' argument. Let's break it down. So, according to your logic, if a warrior doesn't need consumables, why should an archer bother, right? Let's just kick out the archer from the team because, oh no, he might run out of arrows! Can't have that inconvenience, can we? And heaven forbid we invite a ranger; they might actually rely on store-bought arrows! Damage buff oils? Elemental oils for a fiery touch? Now we're talking! And sharpening stones for those marathon fights? Brilliant! But hold on a second. Here's the deal: I'm all for these additions. Unlike some, I don't mind putting in the effort. Farming? Bring it on. It's actually quite serene, you know, soaking in the in-game scenery. Unlike those elitists who think taking a breath will bring about doomsday. So, thanks for the lecture, but I'll pass on the unnecessary anxiety. I'll be over here, enjoying my peaceful gameplay and taking my time, while the rushers burn themselves out. Cheers!
