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[Feedback Request] Alpha Two Fighter Archetype Preview Shown in March Livestream

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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    SongRune wrote: »
    If Ranger and Fighter can outright fly, I'm going to be REALLY disappointed if I can't fly too, as a Bard.

    I was honestly not expecting the airdasher style gameplay from an MMO, but you know what, I think I could maybe go for that. I'm not sure that's a good thing for Ashes, though. If anyone (or even most people) can choose to be anywhere, then it doesn't matter where anyone is.

    ~snip~

    When everyone can move everywhere, "formations" stop mattering, and you can no longer use them to solve (or create) problems.

    I'm worried about Bard. I'm supposed to get formation related buffs, right? If formations don't matter, my team will never have a good incentive to be in one that I can empower.

    ~snip~

    But only if Bard can fly too. Is that good for the game? I'm not sure. But it's required by this design space. All I know is I'm definitely BRD/ROG now, not BRD/RNG.

    This one sums up some stuff but it also touches on the point of the fact that regardless of the balance of numbers, the style of gameplay allowed for the Fighter at the moment, just barely touches on 'changing Ashes itself to be very pre-emptive'.

    This is the thing we really mean when we talk about Predecessor's Khaimera (I generally won't bring up similar characters from other games precisely because Khaimera is the one that takes it too far). Khaimera is not a strategic character at all once combat starts. Not because he has no other options, but because if he got the 'jump' on you, he literally never has a reason to use anything other than what he intended to use to start with.

    Super binary. If you can stop him, you stop him, if you can't, you can't, and that makes him feel bad because he's either winning or losing any given engagement really hard and almost never anything between unlesss there's an execution skill error on one side.

    RNG CC doesn't add to this, it makes it worse. I hope this one doesn't come off as a preference or opinion because the thing I'm talking about isn't how effective he is, but how it feels to fight.

    So, no matter what you make the cooldowns, the Bard in this situation is either 'not really supposed to help the Fighter', or 'really has to focus on stopping the enemy Fighter'. Khaimera is never really 'part of a formation'. He's just 'there'. He can be very effective in this role, but that's it.

    My own (probably huge) post will go into a lot more of that, in a more positive way, though, since this isn't meant to be a criticism on Fighter at all, if you're going for that 'straightforward pre-emptive gameplay', Intrepid. Khaimera is a great character who's a little out of place in his game. Just worried that either Fighter is going to be similarly 'out of place' in yours, or that we've misunderstood what was meant by tactics and synergy, since everyone has different standards.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    Zenny9Zenny9 Member
    edited March 31
    Overall pretty impressed, couple things I’d change

    1. Overall the abilities look very yellowish with a few exceptions much like a paladin. Would prefer a more red/orange colour pallet.

    2. Whirlwind was pretty boring. Would like to see specific talents that change the dynamic feel of it. How can you make whirlwind feel different in this game and not so generic?

    Here’s a few ideas:

    • Fewer spins but more impactful?
    • Character moves in a random direction but damage increases by 200%?
    • Whirlwind deflects all ranged attacks?
    • At the end of Whirlwind you cast a Maim?
    • bleeding whirlwind? Changes color to dark red
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    LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited April 2
    After having some time to better analyze and discuss this with my community, here is my feedback:

    Overall, very, very positive reception, hell, even r/MMORPG mostly liked the combat, this was a first, well done, as steven likes to say, if you build it, they will come, and the team is doing a great job building it.

    The VFX are just perfect, I'd say close to being launch-ready, not too much but enough to have impact and make things look great, I hope they don't get tuned down further. Sound design is 10/10. Animations are mostly very good, minor details like finishing whirlwind rotating the upper body and cleric animation locked jumping without moving the legs, but those are minor adjustments - Feedback for the Renkai, make them taller, and bigger, no need to change the model itself, it was great, just the scale.

    Something I do want to give feedback is on the 2H sword now not slowing you down when attacking, from an animation standpoint and vfx it is better now but I would like it to slow you down when you are attacking like it did before, 1h weapons should remain with a bit of more freedom using WASD when attacking. I'd also love to see blood decals on the ground, similar to what Tera did for physical attacks.

    The fighter kit is looking great, I love the mobility, this is great! keep it on, I love all the more action part of the kit with AoEs, cones, projectiles, the complexity is good, I would like if the Forms (fluidity, ferocity, celerity) would interact more with skills, like skills having bonus damage or effects when you are using a certain form, this doesn't mean you need to change things now, for future skill design, maybe having specialization to be skills that combo better with one particular form, to make forms actual stances more than just buffs that you want to keep on you.

    Weapon skill tree is just in the Perfect direction. Keep doing it, the more complexity and build building options the better.

    Major feedback I have, Please, do not dumb-down systems to make them more accessible to the casual playerbase, you dont need to do this, players will adapt, we are missing games with deep and complex build variety we need this. The more options and complexity and opportunities to make mistakes or good choices the Better. This is also important - choices, do not have multiple different paths and options all freely accessible, need to have Lockouts to allow for meaningful choices.

    Small thing, I noticed the sceptre that the cleric had looked like its a melee weapon, this is weird, hope scepters are 1H ranged defensive magic/healing weapons suitable for clerics to use with a shield.

    Also, from a balancing perspective, I do think clerics need one extra gap creator in their kit, having seen how mobile melees are, which is great, would be nice if besides wings of salvation there was a skill that pushed enemies around you away a good distance, similar to that caravan skill or what we saw in that bard clip posted by steven.

    Something that did concern me, why do mobs drop finished items? please... don't go this route... finished items should come from Crafting... and maybe, just maybe, rare boss drops with RGN stats that go for deconstruction. I don't like seeing this early on drop tables introducing finished items.

    I would also comment on how crazy fast players were leveling from that area, and how it shows we can grind to get lvl 35 in 3 days and make A2 progression be pointless, but I will save that for later and believe progression will be adjusted for A2 and we won't run out of level progression in less than 3 days of grinding. The more you can extend A2 progress the better, not having finished items drops forcing people to interact with crafting/trading, and making it take hundreds of hours to level will help the test hold players for a lot longer before more content is introduced, take A1 as reference on how easily dedicated players reached max level, finished all the content and had nothing to do before the end of the first month, and A2 will be persistent..

    As for performance, I hope DLSS 3 and Frame Generator / FSR is available. Those made TnL playable even in very large scale sieges bypassing CPU bottlenecks, would be great to have them available in A2, and please, don't make the game look worse for better performance, instead have highly customizable settings with different presets, some of us have very high end PCs and with DLSS/FG can run the game even if it is very demanding.
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    ZettrexZettrex Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Figheter:
    Overall i think it looks decent.

    I didnt like the stone shapes of the catalysm they looked out of place.
    I found the footwork and capera still not aligning fully, but its way better then it was.

    I liked the fact you went with the 2h sword being a lighter two-hander and mauls and similar having more of the animation mobility that the melee showcase had. (thats what i understood you to mean).


    Enviorment:
    I ithink the mobs act and move better when interacted with. but they still look a bit stiff,.
    I dont kno w how overleveled you where, but the fact you didnt seem to take any servere damage when doing those big pulls. was that just alot of overhealing or stats causing it or do the mobs dont damage alot. knowing the punnishing reality of dying not dying instant is good, but staying at 90%+ even with mobs on you don't look like its meaningful.

    graphics:
    Abilities look better but they likely still need a pass, with the new lighting system.
    the lighting and preformance if a massive "lowkick" atm.
    the fact abilities kill your preformance is worrying. but as oprimization (iteration 1) is not done yet. but i still think there should not be this much of a "resource hug" on abilities.
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    ShabooeyShabooey Member
    edited March 31
    I usually main a fighter type in MMOs so was eager to see the development since the first fighter showcase, which I really enjoyed.

    Likes:
    I thought the mobility of the fighter was good, I didn't expect them to have so much. Really allows them to move round the Battlefield well.

    I liked the direction of the augment and weapon skills, thought that was good to see how you can develop your character and tune them to your play style or needs of the group.

    I noticed that some of the attacks and skills were missing when the fighter got out of range of the target, which was good. But will this be the case for ranged classes?

    I liked the different stances, momentum and some of the combinations, showed that there could be a good skill ceiling with this class.

    The Ren'Kai model looked cool and so did the armour and sword. Was happy with the sword size, doesn't need to be bigger.

    The sound demonstrated was very good, really quite satisfying and will be quite immersive when playing.

    Concerns:
    Main concern is that the combat of the game isn't really hybrid, it's being designed as tab target.
    Blitz was a cool move but it didn't appear as if the target could dodge or block that attack. So as a fighter that's great in that situation, but not so much for the other person who doesn't have an ability to stop that, or when a ranger or mage is tabbed on to the fighter and they can't block or dodge attacks that's going to be a problem, but seems to be the tab design.
    If the way to dodge that is to spec into evasion or mitigation then fighters will be an underused class as it would be much easier to just use range dps and I really don't want Ashes to turn into a ranged tab game. Melee characters should absolutely have their place, be it a fighter or a rogue.

    Cool downs / mana use is something that will obviously get tuned so this can be taken with a pinch of salt. But, this is where the design seemed a bit off time. A fighter should be getting into the back lines and taking on range and healers. They clearly have the mobility to do this and reach very far with some of their skills, but from the show case, the mana use and cool downs wouldn't really allow them to do this. The cool down of Blitz was about 15s and it seemed like the fighter burnt through lots of mana which would leave them exposed, easily kited and killed.

    Fighter design. The game is defined around group play and you should be relying on your group for buffs. But the high mobility of the fighter seems like they are almost asking them to push out to fulfil their role in the fight which they won't really be able to do with the mana/cool downs currently shown and, more concerning, is how are your support players able to come and support you in the fight with the high mobility and some skills of the fighter? Not sure if I explained it that well but just seemed like the the design is a bit off with the fighter currently.

    Animations looked alright for small scale but in an 8 person group or larger PvP the screen clutter will be an issue. I didn't like the cataclysm spikes, thought that looked out of place. In addition to animations, some of the attacks looked a bit jarring and not that smooth, sure this will get sorted but just something I noticed when watching.
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    I’m just gonna give my reactions in order of what prompted them in the video.

    I like momentum and how it interacts with other abilities. Good job finding an alternative to the popular “rage” resource that’s not only a reskin, but (as far as I know) a totally unique energy system. Definitely feels berserker-y, having to stay in combat to maintain it.

    Blitz is fine as a concept, but the animation just isn’t it imo. How is the character just floating towards the enemy? They look like a modern superhero or something. The image I had in my head right after seeing the current iteration was an animation somewhat similar to what maim ended up being, where the character jumps into the air, slow-mos a bit, and slams their weapon into the ground beneath them. The only difference is, once their weapon hits the ground, the character uses the leverage to launch themselves towards their target in an overhead arc. With a slight moment of slo-mo once the weapon hits the ground before you launch yourself forward. I feel like that would be so badass.

    Brutal cleave is fine, connection to higher resource generation by using on multiple targets is good. Overpower looks okay as well.

    SFX are all quite nice, good bit of flair but not too flashy.

    Maim is awesome, the skill tree projectile upgrade is sweet, nice job. The one thing I’ll say is that this seems to be the only ability that doesn’t use the yellow coded VFX. I think they should either all be consistent, have a balanced blend of colors through all abilities, or have certain colors of VFX match the theme or intended effect of the ability.

    Battlecry is sounding good, nice VFX. Will be fun to hear all the difference voices battlecries. Speaking of voices, I hope players will get to choose from a short series of vocal range options specific to each race / gender during character creation. Can’t decide whether having an ally buff and enemy debuff with the same shout is good or not. But I’m leaning towards good. Might be worth exploring difference shout options depending on your battle stance for more targeted effects.

    Whirlwind is cool, but the animation looks so glitchy, like your character model is just popping from facing one direction to another. Your basic attacks are doing the same thing. Winding up, connecting, then suddenly blinking a foot past where the weapon/character left off. Very disorienting and low-quality looking if I’m being totally honest. Not sure if an animation, local performance, or server performance issue. This has been a problem for a long time now.

    Cataclysm is cool, but the spikes are really strange looking. Why are spikes coming out of the ground? This isn’t a mage earth-bending ability or something. Just make a bit of a “crater” illustration under the enemy, like the grass has been busted apart or the sand/snow/dirt has been disturbed, make a bunch of no-collision rocks fly out in every direction, and add the yellow VFX over it.

    I like how rupture applies more stacks as the enemy moves, very clever. The VFX might be a little overkill right now but the effect looks good.

    Crippling blow is fine.

    Lethal blow is alright, pretty underwhelming looking though. If you have a sword, I think it should be a dramatic stabbing animation with a bit of a slow-mo pause right before plunging it into the enemy. Axe could be grabbing it with both hands if you aren’t already, jumping in the air and bringing it down on the enemy. Mace could be a a 360 spin to build up momentum, a bit of slo mo right after the apex of the spin, and then bringing it down on them at a diagonal. It should be dramatic looking, but not take too long to get the animation out. Maybe there can be a bit of a shout as well right before the weapon connects.

    Blood fusion is awesome.

    Lunging assault is pretty lame tbh. You should leap up off the ground and stab with a sword, swing down vertically with an axe, or spin in midair and strike diagonally with a mace as you come down on the target. Eliminate boring ability animations!

    Leap strike is cool. Here’s a good switch-up, I think. I’d say make my previous concept suggestion for Blitz the new character animation for leap strike, and keep the current leap strike ground effects upon landing. Make the current player animation for leap strike the new animation for blitz, with less dramatic ground effects. That way your big leap strike is really awesome and dramatic, but blitz still gets a more “realistic” leaping jump animation rather than suddenly high-speed hovering towards the target like Superman.

    Ferocity is cool, I like that it impacts ability speed also. Celerity is cool, good for chases. Fluidity is a nice way for fighters to maybe play an off-tank or something. My main critique with stances is that you don’t lose any momentum while switching. That sounds pretty overpowered and drains the stances of their strategic importance. I think it should take a moment to switch stances. Perhaps the fighter kneels on the ground, forehead resting against the pommel of their weapon, mentally refocuses for maybe two seconds, loses 50% of their current momentum with a few accelerated ticks, and rejoins the battle. That way it’s not too punishing, gives the switching of stances some strategic flair, discourages switching in the middle of a heated face-to-face moment of combat because it leaves your vulnerable, and keeps stance switching at peak momentum from turning warriors into absolute battle masters. Maybe you can spec into making stance switching less punishing if you want to be an all-round battle master.

    “God Mode” is hilariously cool, love the animation also. Serious berserker vibes.

    Weapon skill trees are an awesome concept. Extending weapon combos is a good start. One thing to be careful of is the marginal-stat-bonus skill tree BS. Everyone agrees “+ a few percentage increase in x, y, or z” is horrendously boring and makes using and switching things around in the tree a total chore. If the majority of point placement is a brainless “yes, obviously I want this” activity, then it should just happen automatically, like stat boosts when you level up your character. These skill tree nodes need to frequently change the way you play, make adjustments to your abilities while using them with specific weapons, all that stuff. If you get stat bonuses, they should actually be noticeable. The second strike / perfect timing / burning blade choice is a great example.

    Destructible assets are cool. Talking about assets though (and I understand this is an in-dev area) I really hope the environment team will have a ton of clutter to litter around the world. Things are looking fairly “clean” right now in a noticeable way.

    When the team walked up to the side quest NPC and Steven said “well, we’ve already killed some of the goblins” it got me thinking - public points of interest like this should keep track of your enemy kills behind the scenes for maybe 30 minutes. If a player approaches the npc and he offers them the quest, run a check on the player’s enemy kills and see if they qualify for the reward. If they do, the NPC just says, “You say you’ve already dispatched them? Wonderful news! Thank you for your efforts.” Etc, etc. If they’ve killed some, but not all, take the amount killed and put them into the kill counter below the quest tracker. This would highly encourage players to jump into the fray and dynamically start attacking baddies and getting things done before they’ve even found the side quests. That was something GW2’s dynamic event system did really well. It always feels silly to deliberately avoid doing the thing I’m about to do until after I’ve started any possible relevant quests in the area, and seeing everyone else do the same thing. Similarly with the doll quest, I should be able to find the doll parts by accident before I’ve accepted the quest and trigger a different voice line with the NPC while picking it up.

    The goblin language is awesome, nice work on that.

    Is there a reason the air looks so hazy and the view distance is so low? If it’s related to the story arc event, it’s not very obvious what’s causing it. If it’s a big fire, the fire should be spreading throughout the area with embers floating through the air and the smoke should look more tangible with a spectrum of heaviness. I know Steven mentioned lighting changes last month, I sure hope those weren’t being shown off here.

    I know some people like the new resurrection animation, but honestly, I think it’s overkill while simultaneously not being that great looking. A large part of the animation seems to be the same base model just being stretched and warped rather than the different parts growing and branching off organically. I don’t think it’s really necessary at all and only serves to clutter the screen.

    TTK here feels pretty good, though I was hoping for a few beefier bosses with more unique / difficult to deal with abilities (who maybe drop some cool goblin armor/weapons/recipes?)

    New armor set is cool, nikua look great. Whatever the node-type-specific VFX were did not seem to match the theme at all, they look like something out of a futuristic sci-fi game. Maybe I need to see them in action, but they look out of place at a glance. Spiders are good, big buildings are good (can’t wait to see them in a big node!).

    That’s all for now! Thanks for keeping up your great work!
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    Hey! I'm an experienced mmorpg player who has been playing this genre for more than 15 years. I do have some concerns, please hear me out.

    Problem: Since when has the mmo community silently agreed that fighters are also vampires? Why is it that blood heals a fighter/warrior/beserker?

    Class Fantasy: A fighter is a fighter, not a vampire. A fighter is a being who has trained their body from a young age to withstand and endure physical obstacles. Who has selected a weapon they gained an emotional attachment too and attempted to master and continues to master. A Fighter knows their strengths and weaknesses and focus's on the weakness. Thank you.

    Solution: Why not just increase the HP pool size of a fighter so that it doesn’t affect the class fantasy? Is a fighter healing really a good choice? Again, just make their HP pool bigger equivalent to the guesstimated amount of healing done from vampiric blood drinking or whatever.

    Thanks for reading this. The animations look smooth and sick. The leap a bit cheesy but cool. The exert ability and stances are amazing concepts. Love it.

    With much humanly love and appreciation.
    -Ocean
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    Hey! I'm an experienced mmorpg player who has been playing this genre for more than 15 years. I do have some concerns, please hear me out.

    Problem: Since when has the mmo community silently agreed that fighters are also vampires? Why is it that blood heals a fighter/warrior/beserker?

    Class Fantasy: A fighter is a fighter, not a vampire. A fighter is a being who has trained their body from a young age to withstand and endure physical obstacles. Who has selected a weapon they gained an emotional attachment too and attempted to master and continues to master. A Fighter knows their strengths and weaknesses and focus's on the weakness. Thank you.

    Solution: Why not just increase the HP pool size of a fighter so that it doesn’t affect the class fantasy? Is a fighter healing really a good choice? Again, just make their HP pool bigger equivalent to the guesstimated amount of healing done from vampiric blood drinking or whatever.

    Thanks for reading this. The animations look smooth and sick. The leap a bit cheesy but cool. The exert ability and stances are amazing concepts. Love it.

    With much humanly love and appreciation.
    -Ocean

    Another Suggestion: Make it adrenaline based and not healing based maybe? Instead of vampirism and healing for the figher, do as you suggest, which is a good idea, and give the fighter adrenaline which would translate to taking less damage for a short period of time because as we all know adrenaline reduces pain/damage felt. Meaning that a small amount of damage mitigation is equivalent to the healing done from vampiric abilities.
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    AxanAxan Member
    All I saw in the video looked fun and clean.

    My one reservation:
    All of the abilities for Fighter suggests melee weapon support. Is this the intent? Are classes meant to support specific types of weapons? If so this would contradict earlier statements suggesting the intent was that any character could use any weapon. I think this would be a great change by the way! If that isn't the intent, I think a reevaluation would be in order; a conflict between intent and execution would only hinder the result either way. It would feel like a half measure, and I'd hate to see that from a great team.
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    SunScriptSunScript Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited March 31
    Having watched the stream... the exact moment at the start of the stream where the fighter uses Blitz and flies through the air, over the river and cliffs to reach their target... that is when I would close the tab, dismiss the game as unfixable and go watch something else, if I wasn't already invested in Ashes. It's not out of some outburst of anger either, just confidence the game can't make it like this. I'll explain it below.

    Shall we start with the flavor side of things before actual combat? The way the Fighter moves around the battlefield reminds me strongly that these characters do not belong to this world and have nothing to do with it. It's great at making you feel powerful right off the bat, but it is such an immersion break, because of how clearly he disrespects gravity, cliffs and distance in a way that no other creature does.

    You can probably fix that for me by making the mobs able to do these things as well. I'd find that fun, but you currently seem to be going more toward designing "trash" mobs that are easy for the casual player to fight, so it leaves me feeling like this difference between player characters and mobs will continue to widen. What is a mushroom or a wolf even supposed to do to be relevant and interesting by comparison? It ends up feeling like a superhero battle arena instead of an immersive MMO.

    Now to combat stuff. I love Lunging Assault and I really wish it was part of bread and butter Fighter combat flow. That said, Fighter's design creates this weird impression of being both overpowered and underpowered simultaneously (that doesn't equate balanced, no). His ability to ignore and break formations on the other side has a huge impact on how the game is meant to be played, on how support classes can participate, on the structure of 8man parties and so on. How are support classes even going to be helpful here without them also getting absurd abilities?

    At the same time, the existence of Fighter as he is now means people will gear for evasion, making him feel weirdly underpowered at doing what he is meant to do in MMOs usually. I want to tell you how to fix this, but I've never seen a design fail in two opposite directions simultaneously like this, before.

    What I do wish you would do with Fighter is remove the giant meteor leap altogether and center his toolkit more around Lunging Assault. By removing the ending hit of Lunging Assault and making him able to cancel abilities INTO Lunging Assault, he could dance around the battlefield all cool like. Would that fix him overall? I doubt it, but he would be more fun to me.
    ___
    On a separate note, I sincerely loved your grass/shrubbery/ground flowers. They make me want to /crouch and go exploring for things on the ground in a way that no other MMO does (so far). Hopefully I do have things to look for down in the dirt.

    Bow before the Emperor and your lives shall be spared. Refuse to bow and your lives shall be speared.
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    arsa92arsa92 Member
    edited March 31
    Hey,
    Loved this showcase.
    In my humble opinion, ranger and fighter look even release ready, but all other classes need visual rewamp. I would re-model mage's spells from scratch, and same with cleric. They do not have the same level of spell intensity as ranger and fighter do. They are not even casters and they look 10 x times more cool.
    Mage's electric ball should be imo removed forever - it looks like it does not belong in this game :D It straight up looks like a childish version of a spell..Put yourself in a wizzard/mage position and imagine sending some imaginary electric balls.. there are 2000 times better alternatives ^^

    Also, since some of the abilities of the fighter look like they take time to execute, imagine or test fighter vs rogue since rogue's fast pace might overpower fighter's slow one. (would love to see some duels in next live demos )

    PS: decrease the bleed effect on the aftermath of the rupture abillity, it also looks like its not meant for this game but for totally another style :)

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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    SunScript wrote: »
    Shall we start with the flavor side of things before actual combat? The way the Fighter moves around the battlefield reminds me strongly that these characters do not belong to this world and have nothing to do with it. It's great at making you feel powerful right off the bat, but it is such an immersion break, because of how clearly he disrespects gravity, cliffs and distance in a way that no other creature does.

    Just noting that this is a general feeling from my group, but most of us just go 'yeah that's what they're making, it's WoW++, whereas Sun actually has played WoW long enough to gain a dislike for that direction, I think.
    SunScript wrote: »
    You can probably fix that for me by making the mobs able to do these things as well. I'd find that fun, but you currently seem to be going more toward designing "trash" mobs that are easy for the casual player to fight, so it leaves me feeling like this difference between player characters and mobs will continue to widen. What is a mushroom or a wolf even supposed to do to be relevant and interesting by comparison? It ends up feeling like a superhero battle arena instead of an immersive MMO.

    Since I think some feedback relative to this was outright requested...

    Your mobs and mob flow suck, Intrepid. What even is this halfassed BDO? Is this what modern WoW-clones are actually like? (I'm not actually calling Ashes one in this case, just wondering where the drive for this comes from). Fighters have so much relative AoE that it makes me think so, and I remember seeing a lot of it in FFXIV stuff too. But it's fine if you have enough content where that's not the main thing we need to be.

    The rest of Sun's post, I've covered relative to others, but the fact that he reached the 'you failed in both ways at once, impressive' conclusion does speak to a general issue we are still having with Ashes... "What are you actually trying to make here?"

    I guess we could still be in either the 'see what sticks' phase or the 'We believe we can please a large swath' phase. It's just confusing from the feedback perspective, because anything that is 'sorta set in stone' or 'widely preferred by your target audience', we feel like we should tailor feedback to the 'here is how you can make this work for me at least a bit' type, instead of the 'this is dumb and I hate it' type.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    FEEDBACK:

    General:

    - Steven is great, but please have the devs pilot the character during these class showcases. He seems to get distracted easily and it's obvious he's experiencing the class for the first time just as we are. I think we'd all learn more from the people who are working with the classes on a daily basis.
    - Mana feels out of place on Fighter. Would much prefer to manage one class resource and cooldowns. I think making Mana a global resource is redundant.
    - Class abilities seem disjointed, confuse identity. More on that below.
    - Is this a Basic Attack simulator? More on that below.

    Skill Animations:

    - Need more torso/full body movement. Maybe it was just an issue of the bulky Ren'Kai character model, but the skills showcased seem to be mostly arm and leg movement making them appear unnatural and glitchy. For example, the character would sometimes take 3-4 steps per 1 sword swing when Weapon attacking while strafing. Or the body being upright for the entirety of Lethal Blow. Just looked awkward.
    - Too much YELLOW. Animation colors seem disconnected. Need a common color scheme across abilities. Yellow doesn't suit Fighter in my opinion. Red befits Fighter much better.

    Procs:

    - No RNG buffs please. Give us guaranteed procs (on 3rd or 4th Weapon attack etc.). Every time a proc fails it will feel bad.
    - No RNG CC. We need guaranteed CCs and guaranteed ways to deal with CCs. No CC resistence. Just abilities that CC and abilities that do not, abilities that are immune to or break CC and abilities that do not. Not sure if it's been addressed, but something like 7 seconds of CC immunity after being hard CCed is also a necessity.

    Cooldowns/Basic Attacks:

    - Cataclysm - 45 seconds. Battle Cry - 30 seconds. Whirlwind - 20 seconds. Cleave - 18 seconds. Blitz - 15 seconds.
    - SOO LONG. Why are the cooldowns so long? This has me concerned that the majority of combat will consist of Basic Attack Combos.
    - Basic Attacks can have their place if we get guaranteed procs, but in general THEY'RE BORING. We want to press our abilities and chain them together in interesting ways, NOT: [BASIC ATTK1, BASIC ATTK2, BASIC ATTK3, BASIC ATTK4...CLEAVE...BASIC ATTK1, BASIC ATTK2, BASIC ATTK3, BASIC ATTK4...MAIM...etc]
    - I would prefer to see more of a variety of Basic ABILITIES with short cooldowns/no mana cost than a forced Basic Attack rotation every other skill.

    Abilities:

    - BLITZ - Needs 2 hands on the Greatsword during animation. 1 hand lunging with a Greatsword looks awkward. Remove the need for a target from this ability. Would help with general movement, repositioning around the battlefield. Would also reward a properly executed Blitz and allow the opponent to punish a poorly executed Blitz. I think the ability should travel a static distance and only lock to a target if there is one in it's path of travel.
    - CLEAVE - Decent looking skill. Get rid of the yellow.
    - OVERPOWER - Single target verson of Cleave. It shouldn't have the same AoE animation as Cleave. This is confusing. Needs it's own animation and it's own cooldown. Shared cooldowns feel bad.
    - MAIM - Looks great. Best looking skill in the kit. Need more of this.
    - BATTLE CRY - Sounds amazing. Need more of this kind of voice acting.
    - WHIRLWIND - Climactic Whirlwind isn't very climactic. Needs a more exciting, impactful animation. Put some crouch, rise, jump into it. Make me feel like speccing into the enhancement is worth it.
    - CATACLYSM - The earth spikes effect looks out of place. Looks like a caster ability. Needs a more barbaric, displacement of earth type of animation. Have I mentioned get rid of the yellow?
    - RUPTURE - Hmm. Doesn't fit core Fighter imo. This skill and Bleed/Blood themes in general feel more like Fighter/Rogue spec, not core Fighter.
    - CRIPPLING BLOW - Wimpy animation. Would look more interesting with a spinning leg sweep kind of animation. Colors look good though. Need more of these reds in the kit. Needs a different icon, sword against the ankle or something. The boot icon is misleading, makes you think its a Kick ability. On that note, where are our Kick abilities? Or shoulder checks? Would've expected at least ONE hand-to-hand combat ability on a Fighter.
    - LETHAL BLOW - Could be cool. Lackluster, rigid animation for an execute. Needs more evidence of exertion in the animation, more bodyweight, wind-up or something.
    - BLOOD FUSION - Hmm. Another ability that doesn't fit core Fighter imo. The skill concept of life/mana leech is fine and necessary, but current iteration makes it look and sound like a Necromancer ability. Or do we as Fighters dabble in Hematomancy on the side? Give it a fist icon and a new name like "Conquer" or "Sheer Will" or "Determination" or "Battle Spirit" or "Battle Rage" could go on and on. Or if you really need to keep the blood theme then give it sword dripping blood icon and call it "Blood Debt" or "Blood Price".
    - LUNGING ASSAULT - Solid looking ability. CC immune engage. Good. *cough* yellow *cough*
    - LEAP STRIKE - Nice standard leap attack. Great ranged CC engage, can be punished if whiffed. Good call. Hope this ability and others like it get instant cast ground reticals and don't have to be pressed twice to activate. .....yellow...again...
    - EXERT/FORMS - Cool concept. I like. Only thing I don't like is needing to dedicate an entire hotkey for each Form. Maybe have 1 hotkey toggle through all Forms? Also, Exert might work better with a static cost and duration? We'll have to see.

    Conclusion:

    To sum up, if this game is going to become the best MMO on the market, it needs to take the best aspects from other games and leave out the fluff. Basic Attacks just feel like a bottleneck for fun. They aren't engaging in any game I've played. They feel like lazy design that just allows for class balancing without having to touch actual abilities. If AoC can change my mind in that regard then great. This current iteration is not doing that. He may have misspoken, but at one point the dev (Brian I think?) even said the Basic Attack rotation proc "forces...I mean encourages the weaving even harder." If we can get 100% proc rate on Procs then maybe this system can become more appealing, but as it stands I would prefer to just have a wider arsenal of abilities and be able to utilize them more frequently. We don't want RNG in our combat. We want reliable abilities with reliable effects.

    Mana as a global resource feels redundant when we have class resource and cooldowns as limitations.

    There was a lot to unpack with this livestream and I left out numerous thoughts and concerns. Most of the issues I have are specific to the Fighter showcase, some are directed towards the combat design in general. All in all this criticism is intended as constructive and I'm still super stoked for the game. AoC has come a long way and continues to impress. That said, the combat needs A LOT of work if it is going to live up to the depth and complexities of the systems already in place.

    Thanks for reading my rambling,

    Blaspherian




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    nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    This game is supposed to be rated T for teen. The amount of blood on some of the Fighters skills is excessive along with the sound effects is a real turn off.
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
    Absolutely ecstatic, as soon as I imagine Blitz and Leap being shorter...

    Until you start fighting mobs in which case it swings immediately to 'soul-crushingly depressed'.

    What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
    As it is now, nothing. It's just a Khaimera, it's just 'there'. If it's unbalanced in one direction or the other it will feel bad, but as for 'will it be interesting or fun to interact with', that's not really the point of the baseline Fighter Archetype in the first place, is it? It's there for those people who like to grab a big weapon and hit things. And just in case it isn't clear, I have nothing against that whatsoever, I just don't think that Fighters are supposed to be 'exciting' to people who aren't Fighters.

    If you add some more skills and really build on that base, something exciting might come of it, more on that later.

    Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
    See above.

    Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
    See previous posts. I love Fighters. I love all the different ways you can approach the style, to the point where I am always surprised that Ashes only has the 'one' Fighter class, but I can see how both simplicity, and your current design, could manage to only need one. I see it ending up more like TL though, where Fighters are distinguished by their weapon. You'll notice this post is very long. That's what most of it is.

    What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
    I don't like these combos or 'rotations', particularly not the simplistic ones shown, but individually, I thought every single ability was spot on, curated and collected, or convergently evolved, from the greatness of Fighters across many combat games. Thus I'll focus on anything that isn't just basically 'A skill from WoW, TL, or Predecessor adapted to Ashes'.

    o Battle Cry 30 Mana 0.7s Use
    Unleash a resounding war bellow, applying the Riled effect to the caster and all nearby party members and Shaken to all nearby enemies. Gain 5 Combat Momentum for each target that was Riled.
    Riled targets have increases stability and have increase chance of tripping Shaken enemies.


    I don't like this one, because it feeds into the 'lots of CC' aspect of Ashes I dislike. It's certainly an interesting rendition of Warcry/Empower/Rallying, but it just sounds like it will be a pain-point for me right out of the gate on both ends.

    o Form of Fluidity 10 Mana 0.7s Use
    While in this form, the caster receives +4% Disable Resistance Chance per 10 Combat Momentum, up to a maximum of +40%.
    Shifting from costs 20% of current Combat Momentum and triggers cooldown for all Combat Forms.

    Same as above.

    Everything else is just standard fare. I'm a little concerned about your combat flow relative to the cooldowns, because you're still in that state of 'let's give long cooldowns but make the abilities powerful', which is functionally the opposite of what I hope for.

    Worse is the implication that Cooldown Reduction is going to be a big part of how you solve this. To be clear, it's not that I dislike long cooldowns which are then reduced by stuff, it's that making the abilities powerful to 'balance' this, then doing literally anything else to pull that back (or, equally, not doing anything) turns battle into a linear Mash-fest, but if Fighter is generally the most or at least 'among the most' mobile you intend to have... nah, not for me. Make everything more usable and less individually impactful like it used to be, is my desire, if for some reason we're still in the space of 'changing combat direction in this way'.

    This is even 'worse' based on the idea that one might not just take all these abilities, based on what I know now.

    Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!
    Oh boy do I! Should have its own post, but here we go anyway.

    So I keep mentioning Khaimera, let's talk in terms of Khaimera.

    I'm sure that weapon procs, augments, and so on, will at least get up to the level of MOBA complexity, so for now, I want to focus on weapon procs viewed through the lens of Fighter, since committing to the weapon procs concept makes me really think a lot about Fighters using something other than Greatsword.

    So I'm going to try to talk about a few Khaimera builds and what I feel 'ended up being lacking from the showcase due to you only showing off one weapon' (I just assume the other skill trees aren't ready or are in flux). I guess this will technically count as suggestions too.

    Dual Sword Fighter
    Equivalent Khaimera build: Brutallax, Kingsbane, Bonesaw, Overlord
    This is the one that, in Ashes, would focus on Form of Fluidity, Blood Fusion, and Crippling Blow, just regenerating without stopping for as long as they're hitting, and shrugging off CC. You can't run away from them, you can't stop them, they don't even care about Form of Celerity, they're probably parrying you. Stoppable only by someone else getting involved and body blocking or (ugh...) lucky CC. To avoid the 'unkillable Khaimera' problem here, please don't give them any additional Regen when not hitting. Just let the mage blast them down please. They can focus on building health instead of mana. Maybe their procs can be about raising their attack speed when they take damage, that way it (Sword/dual sword) can work on Tank and Rogue fairly too, probably, while still discouraging most non-melee enjoyers from picking up a Sword just for random soloing procs. Or triggering 'parry' states since that's a good spot between 'passive random chance to parry' and 'oh, I missed my parry timing on my long cooldown parry skill, RIP.

    Hammer/Mace Fighter
    Equivalent Khaimera build: Nex, Basilisk, Citadel, Demolisher
    That person you send when you know the backline is going to escape, you just want the tank to move for fall back, or you want to steal a Boss kill. The Tank Breaker. Mace/hammer procs make sense to lower physical armor, right? Percentage based probably balances it out too. Lowering enemy evasion and having some better chances of crits would help with this role, and let them focus on doing big attacks right after proc hits, but also faking out an opponent who thinks to CC them on a rhythm. Form of Ferocity and Whirlwind users. Plus, lots of people would probably at least consider Mace Tanks too, and this still wouldn't overall cause an issue for most groups for the type of content. A Mace Fighter doesn't expect to be fighting the same person as their Tank.

    Also, do y'all still have that 'feature' of how weapon combos work from A1, such that if you do Hit 1, Hit 2, Lunging Assault, then the next basic attack will be hit 3 and get the proc? That would be great in all cases ofc, but it would be phenomenal here, because you've implied that heavier weapons might slow down movement, but they might also build more Combat Momentum per swing. It's unclear though.

    Spear/Halberd Fighter
    Equivalent Khaimera Build: Eviscerator, Terminus, Ashbringer, Tainted Rounds,
    The finesser. At least I kinda hope so. The only reason I'm going on like this is because a team member pointed out to me that they don't really see why Fighter specifically would care too much what weapon they were using if they had all those abilities. Spears are good when you figure the person is going to try to get away and you want to make that as punishing as possible, so, probably for fighting Rangers where you just want to stay on top of them if you can. Since just 'giving Combat momentum' doesn't make sense as a proc, I figure it has to be either movement speed, cooldown reduction, or the proc-attack itself just lunges a bit. If they use Form of Celerity, Rupture, etc, and use the longer range Maim, then this is the one that can retreat and drag enemies into bad situations while still fighting, or pursue anyone they can manage to stick to or trip. Probably nothing that boosts Lethal Blow?
    Just the general thought that this would give an option for spears as a 'safe standard' melee weapon for other Archetypes. Rogues would be less stealthy, Tanks would be probably giving up their heavier shield but getting more ability to just outrange or reposition out of attacks, and more Cooldown stuff... Clerics could afford to take some frontline damage if they're just gonna heal faster anyway... can focus on Mana over Health.

    GreatAxe Fighter
    Equivalent Khaimera Build: Ortus, Vanquisher, Mutilator, SkySplitter,
    The executioner. Overpower build with Lethal Blow that handles adds, belongs in a group where they either are the puller (in crowded spaces) or where the puller is gone before the mob is even dead, to get the next one. EXP Chain #7 plz. And I mean like, old days EXP Chain #7 IT+. I personally 'worry' about how you're going to balance Form of Ferocity with procs in the first place in PvE, but this is definitely not the place I'm worried about it. Since this weapon is most likely to be 'thematically tied to fighter' I guess, it might not be so bad to tailor the proc to them fairly heavily? Temp Health could do well here, since that'd save you from putting it on any gear and throwing your whole balance into the washer. I know GrandSerpent would enjoy 'being able to power through and shrug off DoT because she's just laying waste to everything in front of her, while still leaving it open for the people who still want some CC resistance in their build instead of somehow benefitting from or multiplying that temp health. Please make it cap though, i.e. https://omeda.city/items/Terminus.

    Axe/Shield or Dual Axe Fighter
    Equivalent Khaimera Build: Liberator, Boneseeker, Draconum, SkySplitter,
    This is as Khai as you get. Just hit more. Just 'more', and don't stop. Heal faster, receive more healing, just be relentless, borderline tanky. Probably balanced enough on Axe for most Tanks because soaking up more healer MP isn't usually the top option, but unlike Blood Fusion, maybe this is less damage dependent. Letting Axe users ramp up damage the more they hit something would at least give Tanks a meaningful tradeoff (let's be real, they'll just find something squishy, but that's okay, right? Axe Tank vs spiders or something makes more sense anyway). Maybe they can reduce enemy crit rate, or mana, or... anything that helps them bring damage down by keeping their own hitting up. Plus, I wanna see Axe Clerics. Not be. Just see.

    Dagger/Shield or Dual Dagger Fighter
    Equivalent Khaimera Build: Pacifier,Infernum, SkySplitter, Tainted Blade
    I don't think anyone would take this too seriously as a mainline Khaimera build, because of exactly when you build it, namely, when you expect to have to consistently duel one of the other Khaimera builds. The anti-healer, the one that just sticks to you and shreds you with the expectation that they will win out before you can, and they just have to stack way too many wounds and bleeds and other things on you, but most importantly, the one that wins if you keep trying to 'catch your breath', because unlike others, they just stop and 'catch their breath' too, knowing that you're eventually gonna die from the stacks, and they can stack muchfaster than you.
    Obviously I have a gigantic bias here because this is also what I want dual daggers for, but since Ashes is taking inspiration from other MMOs... (don't let anyone tell you that you have to be very original, guys, we didn't come here to not play the classics)
    I sorta assume Dagger procs are going to just be bleeds and similar, which is slightly sad, especially if you run into that old WoW problem of 'capped statuses', but at least it's a cap on stacks and not on 'number of statuses' so people could adapt.

    Anyway I should really stop, this was just the most efficient way I could think of to 'discuss all the cool concepts of Fighter that I know with clear examples all stemming from a single base'. Sorry, Wand Fighter fans.

    Final Unrelated Feedback (Mobs Density and Challenge in Oakenbane)
    I wouldn't even go there if this was what it was like. The last time you showed off something like this area was in the Tank showcase, you could barely have got me to go there in a trio, I think. Four could be good. Eight would be a snoozefest.

    Your combat doesn't make me look forward to healing, but this post is long enough. Bear in mind that I REALLY like the Cleric design, I just expect to never actually need to use much of it, except if pushing absolutely at the max of the level range, and then I expect it to turn into Neverwinter.

    This is all 'as it stands now' ofc. Goblins... Flat, just there so the Fighter could AoE. Mushrooms? Ranger food. Wolves? They do damage. I hit anti-damage button. The one that had the shield? That has nothing to do with me at all, that's damage dealer synergy work. Even if you give me something to help, it's likely to just be some basic CC->damage synergy which I just have to 'not mess up'.

    The pacing looks mind-numbing, and that's saying a lot. Not quite BDO tier mind-numbing, but not considerably better. It looks more like having a skill at 'looking around' and maybe 'assessing next target', unless you're the Tank or Fighter in which case you check if your AoE is up, and if it is worth using/the right one.

    But the difference between that and what I actually like, seems very subtle.

    Are we getting Active Blocking back on non-Tanks? Mob trios that work together? Anything that has as much repositioning as a Fighter and a good AI for using it? I'll go to wherever that stuff is.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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    SpaceWolfSpaceWolf Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Okay first of all, dang. I really like this class! As somebody who tentatively plans on going Mage/Fighter, I find that a lot of Fighter's abilities are a great foundation for how I like to play games in general!

    The momentum system as an additional resource seems like a great idea. Forcing Fighters to sustain close-to-mid combat - essentially to sustain a 'fair fight' with their target in order to use their best stuff - seems like a great balancing factor. At first I was concerned by the lack of sustain options, but then you started to show those off.

    I'm especially partial to Consuming Lethal Blow and Blood Fusion - from my perspective as a probable subclass Fighter, Blood Fusion seems like the least replacable part of the kit. Both abilities provide a form of health and mana recursion in exchange for engaging with the target, which is one of my favorite things to do in a wide variety of games (MOBAs, TCGs, single player RPGs, etc), so I'm really happy it exists here.

    Some suggestions:

    The Form system is really cool - I love Samurai's stance system in FFXI and have always wanted to use stances more than just casually (I was just trying the class recreationally), and making the Forms strike a balance between passive buffs and active Momentum consumption, rather than just being straight buffs, is great. HOWEVER, I noted that there's currently no visual feedback (sans an icon) for what stance you're in, which is a stark contrast to how crunchy and immersive the rest of the animations feel.

    Different idle/movement animations for your weapon type, depending on what Form is active, would go a long LONG way towards making the system feel more immersive for me, and also it would diegetically convey what stance you're in, both for your own benefit (no need to check an icon) and for the benefit of other players. I recognize that this could fractalize into a lot of animation work due to the amount of weapon types to cover, but I think it'd be well worth it.

    I like the concept of Exert, but rather than toning down the raw numbers too much, perhaps add an HP drain-over-time effect as a tradeoff while it's active? It'd mean you gotta think more carefully about when to deploy it; using it at low health becomes fairly risky instead of a potential Get Out Of Bad Situation Free card, and it has the potential for interesting interactions with Blood Fusion, and any future abilities that have added effects when your HP is low. I rather like Dark Knight in FFXI, which has abilities that do indeed trade HP or defense for power, so I'm a bit biased here, but I think Exert is an appropriate place to apply that philosophy.

    Some questions:

    I'm a BIT concerned about Shaken's balance in party situations. What I mean is that... let's say you have two or three Fighters in a group. Let's assume that Shaken has a 5% chance to trip enemies no matter WHO is hitting the target. Therefore, it seems likely that a sufficiently high amount of attacks per second (such as with Whirlwind), by multiple Fighters alternating use of their Shaken effects, can potentially cause an enemy to get Trip-locked rather easily.

    Perhaps a cooldown on Trip, i.e. "a target can only be tripped once every 10 seconds", would be a good idea? Otherwise a group of decently-coordinated Fighters could plausibly mow down just about anything, as I currently understand it.

    Also, will Lunging Assault function if you're Snared or whatnot? I assume not, and that instead, it simply prevents those effects from being APPLIED while active, but does not IGNORE the ones that are on you currently. I'm assuming this because Unstoppable Exert specifically says it's usable through CCs and Lunging Assault doesn't, but figured I'd check.

    Overall, I like this class a lot! I'm a bit disappointed that Blitz requires a target to utilize, but at the same time, I understand that's probably important for balancing it - I'm fine with Lunging Assault as an alternative (I love repositioning in short lunges), with Momentum being the opportunity costs for the effect. Prevening excessive spamming of lunge-evasion by forcing you to maintain engagement seems a pretty cool idea.


    Thanks for the showcase! <3
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    NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited March 31
    SunScript wrote: »
    Shall we start with the flavor side of things before actual combat? The way the Fighter moves around the battlefield reminds me strongly that these characters do not belong to this world and have nothing to do with it. It's great at making you feel powerful right off the bat, but it is such an immersion break, because of how clearly he disrespects gravity, cliffs and distance in a way that no other creature does.

    Please don't think I am attacking your opinion or preference here. I think at one point back in the day I would have felt like you. But a good while back, probably in A1, it just clicked for me that every single archetype in Ashes is a magic user. A wizard. Some are more physical wizards than others, like the fighter, ranger, tank and rogue, but they all use mana to cast their spells. Snipe on the ranger? Magic green projectile, even if it does physical damage. Tank active blocking? Magic shield in front of the physical shield. Fighter using Blitz? Just another magic skill like the mage's teleport.

    Absolutely none of their skills would function on Sanctus, except maybe some of the basic weapon combos, but even that is debatable. Verra is a magical world, where player characters do magical super hero things. I think Blitz is very much on point and connected to and part of this magical world. I am all for it.

    However, I also think mobs should be doing the same to a larger extent.
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    AszkalonAszkalon Member
    edited April 1
    Vaknar wrote: »
    • How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?

    The whole Presentation looked "absolutely" fantastic. Also especially for a Work still in Development.

    You kinda outdid yourself with this One, dear Intrepid Team. Your Ranger Presentation in December was already very nice. But the Fighter Presentation was even more impressive. What for an amazing Beast of a Warrior.

    Vaknar wrote: »
    • What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?

    I briefly got Wind of an Statement which said, that the amazing " Battle-Shouts " of the Fighter will all sound different, depending on the Race and/or Gender of the Character ?

    And that People can EVEN choose different Voices for their Character ? This would already be an AMAZING Variety of different sounding Battle-Shouts for each Fighter-Shout Ability just with the different Races and the two Genders alone.

    But even more ? Maybe i am wrong with this Information - but it sounded impressive nonetheless.

    What for an amazing Presentation at the End of March.

    Vaknar wrote: »
    • Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?

    I am amazed how "powerful and mighty" the Fighter seems. I am aware the Lore behind all that Earth-shattering Power behind his Attacks are explained by the Presence of "The Essence" in the World of Verra, enhancing People's Strength and Power and giving them Abilities beyond normal physical Limits.

    But he seemed so almost overwhelmingly powerful. The "Shaman"(?) Abilities of the Minotauer-Enemy NPC's in the Presentation before seemed very calm compared to that.

    Right now i can not imagine any lesser tanky Class like a Summoner, Cleric or Mage having an easy time to get some Distance and survive at all if a Fighter is on them. ;)

    Not saying he seems overpowered, though. Just so powerful that he is kinda intimidating. :D


    Vaknar wrote: »
    • What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?

    He has all the nice things i imagine a Fighter would need.

    He has at least one capable and reliable looking Charge. That can even "shoot him through the Air" when he jumps while activating it. (lol)

    He also has a nice "Jump-Attack" than can bridge some Distances and deliver and Earth-shattering blow. Very nice.

    Plus the "Crippling-Attack" is good to prevent agile Classes and Opponents to constantly run away from You easily. ;) Very neat-looking. I like it.

    Vaknar wrote: »
    • Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share them!

    Some of the "swings" still look just a t~iiiiiny bit clunky and heavy. Like maybe they could be just +5% to 10% faster and more smooth. But they look great overall.

    Some of the kinda transparent-looking, "blurry Swings" also look very cool and kinda intimidating. A fearsome Opponent indeed.




    While i plan right now to play as a Summoner with Second Subclass Cleric, so i can play a "Necromancer"-styled Summoner, i shall keep this great Warrior in Mind and shall definitely give it a try as well.
    jcildf8jglv5.png
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    IustinusShivaIustinusShiva Member
    edited April 1
    I really liked this showcase overall. The fighter build here was beefy and clunky in all the right ways. I caught a comment in Twitch someone saying that the ground shaking effects were disorientating and clunky and distracting - but to me that's exactly what this Class Fantasy is all about.

    That said, I'm disappointed that it doesn't seem like there are (currently) much in the way of other build types. Swift and nimble Py'rai fighters or archer-fighters. With the campaign being built on Pathfinder, I was definitely hoping to see archer-fighters being a thing, since it is one of their main builds: Rangers being more mobile and nature based while fighter archers being more about weapon mastery and precision and 'military'. Only MMOs to do this well have been DDO (Obviously) and Guild wars 2 with the Longbow Warrior being very different from a Longbow or Shortbow ranger.

    I was heartened by Steven mentioning that you will automatically switch to an appropriate weapon if necessary for some skills, which means a Fighter specced mostly into bow for combo attacks can feel good about taking melee powers that will get swapped to when those skills are used - and I can see ranged-spec Maim being decent in that regard as well as a few of the other skills demoed.

    Wound as a mechanic seems like it better fits the Rogue, so hopefully they both get it. That said I definitely agree that rupture is a nice mechanic on the Fighter as a way to punish super mobile players.

    The quest item concept as currently implemented needs a terribly bad overhaul if this is designed to be a grinding area where a lot of players go to. You couldn't even get the quest done within a single party because not everyone could get the McGuffin. You'd have to kill each boss four times waiting on the cooldown each time (or going in circles) and heaven forbid there are other players there. Unless the intent is for this to provoke a non-consensual PVP situation for limited resources, this is terribly bad form for modern gaming (though it does harken back to classic boss spawn cycle situations from 25 years ago, which might be the intent)


    EDIT: After reading other comments
    A few 'why do warriors use Mana?' - not everyone understand what it means to be a 'high magic world' where literally everyone uses magic in one way or another. Do not change this because it is super tied to the theme of your world. That said it currently seems like warrior gets mana back faster than other classes with the blood skill, which seems a little weird. Might make more sense for these skills to cost less mana and the mana regain skill be likewise less, which would show that the warrior relies more on their physical powers than magic, even though magic is still part of what they use for these fantastic effects.
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    WARRIOR/Fighter CLASS:

    Happy with the new size of the swords, not too big, not too small. Good balance here.
    The sound effects for Warrior Skills sound great. Powerful, like they are wreaking havoc. Kudos to the combat team. They nailed it.
    • Having warriors/fighters shouting all the time during a group or raid might get a bit annoying after a bit.
    Blitz – Perfect gap closer.
    • The animations look great. It looks sounds and feels like it should.
    • Love the fact that you can jump and use the skill to gain a bit higher ground to elevate jump up to enemies or cover gaps in terrain.
    • Please do not allow this ability to climb walls or cliff faces when trying to get to targets.
    o How high of a vertically can you use this skill?
    o Could a fighter Blitz up a node wall during the war?
    Battle Cry - is super cool, but the only concern I have with this is in large groups. Curious if this will be an annoying sound after a while if there are many Warriors in a group using that skill.
    • I like the fact that you will have a voice-over option for both males and females and the different races so the shouts will be different.
    Cataclysm – Awesome Spell
    • The sharp earth spikes coming up out of the ground are not the right look or don’t quite capture the ground exploding up.
    • They look extremely unrefined. Maybe Stalagmites or larger rocks exploding up out of the ground would look better.
    • The spikes also stand higher than the Golias Tank so you might want to lower them or space them out, possibly adding fewer for combat clarity when fighting.
    • It needs some work, but you are on the right track.
    • How will this look using a different weapon like a spear?
    • It would be fun to see a few different variant effects based on the weapon used.
    Maim - Looks great.
    • The only issue I have is the 30-meter distance seems to put it on par with ranged class attacks but will need to see how a ranged/Warrior PvP fight would play out for a distance hit like this one.
    Rupture - I like where you are going with the effect.
    • I would tone down the amount of blood and maybe add a blood effect when the target is moving across the land, they leave a blood trail behind. It needs more animation passes to find that sweet spot.
    • The placement of the effect looks odd since it’s displayed on the back of the character on the weapon or the actual enemy target.
    • I appreciate the fact that rupture is a stackable dot that does more damage to the target when moving. GW2 has this condition effect.
    • Thank you for adding Condition stacking to the game.
    • Being able to choose between a pure single or AoE physical DPS or Condition DPS or balance is extremely nice. GW2 did this well and having many builds to choose from for theory crafting and class longevity is key.
    Leap Strike –
    • Love this Mobility skill in WOW and GW2 thank you for adding this to the Warrior class in Ashes.
    • I would allow this skill a bit more verticality than Blitz but not the ability to jump walls or scale cliff faces.
    • Please add a color change to a ground indicator that shows you if it will not work. GW2 does this so you don’t spend a ton of time clicking on positional skills only to find out it will not work going to that area.

    In summary, the base Fighter/Warrior kit looks awesome. The mobility, utility, and impactful Ness of the combat abilities and sound design make this a great class to play. It should be a great fighting class in many situational combat settings.
    Weapon Specialization Skill Tree,
    1. I like the direction you are going with this.
    2. I appreciate the fact that you are making this weapon specialization tree impact your overall gameplay.
    3. That the points spent, and time spent leveling the weapon means something in the game because it impacts your overall Min\Max and complements your builds.
    4. Love the attention to detail with the addition of different animation attacks that highlight the proc effect. I would like to see more cool weapon animation moves added for when you max out the last spell in a specialization tree/branch.
    5. These little touches to detail just add that cherry on top.

    ENVIRONMENT:

    The way the team set up this moody windy weather in the intro looked amazing. The way the grass and trees were moving… Super!
    The water in the riverbed in the intro looked very smooth and polished. Great job!
    Final PvE combat with the goblins had this eerie background sound. Possible to lower that? It sounded more like the sound you’d hear in a cave with a breeze coming through. Currently a little bit loud. But you guys may lower this sfx once music is added from Bear.
    It looked like the wolves and goblins were running quite slowly and they all had the same animation path which caused stacking.
    The lighting looks so much better now. Adding little details like birds, bees, butterflies, fireflies, leaves, snow, and rain falling. Little frogs on lily pads, squirrels running over and climbing trees, all these little details just immerse you into the game.
    Character Model faces still need a little bit of work, but they are coming along so much better now.
    On a side note, the Mage Class spell animations for Blizzard, Cone of Cold, and base attacks are looking 100% better now. They look clean, crisp, and polished. The lighting effects going into the ground, the Ice spikes, and the fog effects from Blizard are so good now.
    The cleric spells well did not see any special animation so I would like to see what happened to the animations.

    GENERAL FEEDBACK:

    Suggestion for class showcases moving forward. I would love to see class showcases be broken up into segments like you have started doing.
    1. First showcase each Ability like you have been doing.
    a. Explain DPS, AoE/Single target, Physical vs Conditional like you did with Rupture.
    b. Show case Utility and Mobility
    2. Show Case weapon specialization abilities and the different proc effect animations.
    3. Close-up view of the look of the class and how the class interacts with the environment. Walking, running, climbing, jumping, swimming, general movements, idles, knockbacks, stuns, etc.
    4. Show some solo combat on the easy mobs next to where you are at then move into the group play showcase.
    5. Explaining each skill against 1 target. Stress test where we view class in a 1v1 battle + PvE combat. (I feel like we are missing a lot here and a stress test in a 1v1 or 3v3 fight would be fun.
    6. During a class archetype presentation show combat and not so much stop to read and do quests at this point.

    Things I did not like about the Fighter Archetype Preview:
    1. I did not like the fact that. Every time Steven stops to read or pick up the loot or explains a nuance of the game not associated with group class combat synergy highlighting the class being showcased it distracts from not showing us the combat interactions of the class.
    2. We all want to see a good, focused class combat with some good ability rotations.
    3. When Steven runs off it takes away from the group. Kind of like when you know someone in your group or raid is not paying attention or goes ninja AFK or is answering direct texts and not playing to their ability.

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    All in all, this was a great showcase, and I am pleased to admit that melee combat at least for the Fighter is looking solid. You definitely found the fun. Keep up the great work. See you all next month.
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    WildyanimalWildyanimal Member
    edited April 1
    Hello Ashes of Creation,

    Thank you for this opportunity, i would like to give my feedback on Fighter Archetype Preview as an experienced MMORPG gamer since 2004 where i started playing Lineage 2 C1.

    1.How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
    Overall i could say that the preview was amazing and it was something we have never seen before. That was the next level of gaming and really enjoyed everything, great job and keep up with the phenomal development of all the classes.

    2.What excites you about playing and interacting with the Fighter Archetype?
    I am really excited about the weapon skill tree- dual-weapons, 2-Hand Swords, Hammers. Also how the Combat Forms would work with the differenty play style for each person. Excited about what a fighter brings to his party & raid except his high damage. In that regard the Battle Cry skill looked awasome and could be developed even further maybe.

    3.Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with the Fighter Archetype Preview?
    Well, I am really excited to test how the combinations and skills would feel.
    Little concerned about the Class and Weapon Skill Trees, think those could be made to look way better and easier to assimilate.

    4.Are there similar Archetypes you’ve seen in other games that you like or dislike? If so, please explain!
    I liked the Orc Destroyer from Lineage 2 where the Destroyer would usually use a big Two Hand Mace or Hammer and that gave you an ability which could stun,shock the target for 5 seconds or more.

    5.What are your thoughts on the Fighter's abilities, mechanics, and combos?
    Firstly i would like to point that in a PVP scenario it would be really hard to escape from a Fighter who has 2 long range abilities to jump on you, then he uses the Lunging Assault which makes him Immune to hard crowd control abilities. In addition you can then slow the target, use your abilities to lifesteal while being tanky with plate armor and high health pool and i am not even mentioning the speed Battle Form which would make you to reach targets faster :D. I honestly believe that the ability to Heal yourself with the Blood Fusion is overpowered and unreal in addition to the Fighter being with Heavy Armor and high health,strenght. That removes the whole point of the Healer, Health Potions, Food, Health Regenaration and will remove the social aspect of the game. After a heavy fight you should give yourself a rest, let the healer get some mana, eat food, prepare consumables etc.

    >Blitz - I think the range of the skill is to big(30m) in addiotion to the Leap Strike which also has 30 m range. I liked the mechanic to jump and charge to the target but being able to use it from that long distance just doesn't feel right and realistic to me for a fighter archetype.
    >Brutal Cleave - looks really cool, would be interesting how this could be augmented.
    >Maim- this skill is amazing, my favorite from all :smile: . Imagine this augmented with other different effects.
    >Battle Cry- really nice party/group buff, would be interesting to see it developed further as well. Maybe adding movespeed, attackspeed with augments.
    >Whirlwind- personally i didn't liked the additional hit effect, because i feel like the fighter have already enough hit effects from the normal attack combos and other skills. My toughts are maybe to add longer, faster spin duration or something completely new and amazing. The ability to cancel the spin early and use something else is really cool and adds flavor on the class.
    >Cataclysm- looks nice i just don't get why there would be spikes coming from the ground, that's usually an earth elemental ability. From the ability icon it looks more to me like the ground should split,shaken. Don't mind staying as it is as well, feels great.
    >Rupture- maybe less blood spilling out after the initial hit ^_^
    >Blood Fusion- my honest opinion is that the fighter gets to powerful with the ability to heal himself, basically it's like becoming a Lifestealer or getting a 100% lifesteal legendary item. Other then that why would you need a healer or healing potions if you have this ability. Fighter will be able to stay in the fight thanks to his healer, bard and his plate armor. It even sounds more like a demonic ability. Just give the fighter more health and health regenaration thru passive abilities.

    Will stop here with my thoughts on every ability, otherwise this post will never end :tired_face:

    6.Do you have opinions on the great sword animations, Fighter VFX, and unlockable procs? If so, please share
    them!
    I loved the animations, could suggest to test futher how they would look,feel in a situation where you have massive PVP going on. Other then that I think the size of the Greatsword looks maybe kinda small compared to the ORC in terms of scale, maybe try different size for each race or just make the two hand weapons little bit bigger and see if they would look,feel better.

    Thank you for letting me share my thoughts & suggestions and great job really, keep up with the fantastic work!
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    AszkalonAszkalon Member
    Edited a Typo-Mistake in my former Comment.


    " Right now i can not imagine any lesser tanky Class like a Summoner, Cleric or Mage having an easy time to get some Distance and survive at all if a FIGHTER* is on them. " ;)


    Not a Tank. ;)
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    It was certainly a welcome and detailed preview! Much longer than others, for some reason.

    Was glad to see travel/jump-to abilities on-display. Some of them worked better with jumps - as they probably should. The animation on the sword-swings is still a tad choppy; It kind of cuts to the end-position of the weapon, noticeably - and a lot.

    Wasn't concerned about not seeing something that I felt should be present; It didn't feel as though it was missing anything, in-particular.

    Would probably scale-down the blood on the one ability - I think it was 'Maim'. There's literally like 2 or 3 gallons of blood pouring out of the enemy, and it equated to a very un-realistic amount.



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    general stream feedback
    What sucks(your words):
    Quest progression- it feels horrible waiting on respawns to get an item you already earned for every member of the party. here are 2 ways I would approach it.
    1). the item was already no trade making it so everyone can loot the item and having it have no value outside the quest/only being able to pick it up if you haven't completed the quest and don't have one.
    2(not recommended). make the item tradeable. the problem with this is its likely to create a powerlvl meta of buy these items and run from quest to quest and can be bad for overall game health.

    what's great: the combat here 2 big reasons I'm exited for it.
    1) less realistic and more fun such as canceling a skill into another and changing direction mid cast. the sad truth is realistic is clunky don't get me wrong try to make since but always lean more on the fun side IMHO.
    2)group combat looks fantastic. specifically it looks very skill based just from this small stream I can 100% tell a good group is going to pull a few packs and it will LOOK easy but a bad group trying the same pull is going to have aggro everywhere and it will be chaos trying to survive the pull.. chaos is fun if its your fault
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Fighter/Mage = Blood Mage Confirmed? :smiley:
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    edited April 2
    I waited for a couple of days for all my thoughts to settle. So here goes:

    Things that I liked or found promising 

    - Loved the Renkai model. I think super-ugly orcs with grotesque features are overused.
    - Really loved that you can use movement skills in midair. 
    - The overall direction of the Fighter archetype is nice, with a focus on aoe, mobility, and bleeding.
    - The environment is great and overall compelling.
    - The sound effects are nicely done.

    Things that are a hard NO (with an explanation why)

    - Drops of full items are damaging to the crafting, gathering, and trading aspects of the game. The only situation where it is acceptable is something like this: there is a goblin shaman that spawns randomly during the nighttime in the goblin camp and patrols until daytime. If you kill it, you have a small chance that it will drop its visible item in one piece. For example, a staff or mask. The same is true with bosses. And that's it. Other than that, mobs and bosses should drop resources, recepies, or parts of items to be used in crafts.

    - CC or debuff with a chance proc is a hard pass. It is not fun. If anything, it is infuriating. When a player uses their long cooldown skill with a negative applied effect, they should not be praying that it actually hits. 
    So it is like that: let's say a Fighter and a Ranger are fighting (skills are imaginary). Fighter uses a nontargeted slash that hits a narrow zone in front of him and applies stun. Ranger has options. 1) roll sideways, predicting fighters move 2) waste a movement or dodging ability 3) get hit and stunned. 
    Thats it. No lottery. No gacha bullshit!
    In my opinion, only auto-attacks can be dodged or blocked with stats. Abilities should always hit (unless negated with another ability or you miss the hitbox) and apply an effect if there is one. No exeptions.
    If you reeeeeealy want to put hit or proc chance in the game, here is an alternative. Example. Fighter hits Ranger with an ability that has a 50% chance of applying stun. Warrior is lucky, and it procs? Ranger is sunned for 1 second. Warrior is unlucky? Ranger is STILL stunned, but only for 0.5 seconds.

    Things that I think should be improved or changed

    - Autoattacks have weird animations. Some movements feel proper, and others feel out of place and unnatural. I think there were posts above with great, detailed explanations.

    - Mobs pathing and some animations need more love. Anyone who was watching with both eyes could tell.

    - Tone down some skill animations. The core concept of most of them is great, but smaller explosions would be a nice change. It is not BDO.

    - Sound effects are great, as I have already mentioned, but I think some of them are too loud (bleeding, slashing).

    - Am I crazy, or is Maim skill targeted? Why? It's a cone with a projectile. Hope I am wrong and someone corrects me. Steven was moving left and right, rotating camera, but the skill was hitting nonetheless.

    - Blitz. Again, why is it targeted? It is a very powerful skill on its own. A gapcloser that can even be used to reach higher or lower ground. Adding autotarget to it is unfun and unfair. Please remove the target mechanic so that the player is required to aim and calculate the distance. This way, Blitz will require more from the player, but in compensation, it will let Fighters use the skill freely in any direction without targeting.

    - Leap Strike. Distance is crazy. How can anyone escape a fighter? You put him to sleep? He breaks the CC. You slow him down and run away? He jumps three screens. Unfun.
    And one more thing: I remember the talks about jumping puzzles and places that are hard to reach. How will that work exactly with skills like Leap Strike?

    - Exert. Absolutely game-breaking ability. And it can be prolonged beyond the 5-second threshold. Well, I'm sure during A2, it will be toned down several times. I would remove CC immunity right now. Every class should have ONE ability with a CC break. With a significant cooldown (10 sec+). And that's it. CC immunity is absolutely unfair and unfun in pvp. 

    - Can not stay silent about colors again. Please stick with a two-color palette for each archetype. Even two colors have hundreds of shades. Gold-yellow has already been taken by the cleric. Red-brown is more than enough for Fighter.

    - One last thing. And I truly am not trying to be rude or condescending. Steven is a delight when it comes to showcasing game systems. His positivity and entusiasm are great. But when it comes to showcasing archetypes, I think there should be some changes. Either let a developer who was working on this archetype move the character and let Steven be a commentator that asks questions and guides the stream. Or Steven should spend a couple of hours before the stream learning the class (I know he is super busy. The first option is much better). 
    Because after listening and watching the explanations of different Fighter skills for almost an hour, Steven's performance in combat was frustrating, to say the least. Every time he refilled mana with console or drank potions, part of me died. You have a vampiric skill. Please use it (I beg looking at my monitor during the stream). Every time Steven randomly left the fight or walked in the wrong direction, I wanted to take him by the hand and guide him back. And I'm not even gonna start with random use of abilities with no plan or combo. 

    Thank you for the stream. I had a lot of fun watching. 

    PS: I forgot to mention one of my biggest concerns. In the showcase, there was talk about limited debuffs on bosses. Here, I am begging you to be very careful with restrictions. I am sure there will be classes that heavily rely on DOTs. If you limit the number of debuffs, such classes would become unwanted in parties. If you do not limit the number of debuffs but limit debuffs by type, the same classes will face the problem that only ONE, let's say, Warlock, would be allowed in a raid. Why would you take two of them if they keep canceling each achothers debuffs? So please take this into consideration.
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    SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I must say you should lose the golden effects for fighter. Cleric has golden effects and fighter doesn't need golden effects. Also, fighter looks more like a paladin or blood knight hybrid due to these effects.

    Overall, I liked the direction of the fighter. Much improved from the last showcase. I love the stances you've implemented and also the weapon skill trees. I still feel the pve is lacklustre and most of the time it's tank and spank.

    I realise you aren't showcasing the pve per say but it doesn't feel like the classes are epic when all the classes do is just tank and spank. Of course, two devs have died to overpulls in the fighter showcase and mage showcase but that does not indicate good pve, just standard numerical overindulgence.
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    Tahiti02Tahiti02 Member
    Absolutely incredible! I've usually played "caster" type classes like Shaman, Paladin, and Druid. But the fighter looks incredible, the animations felt strong, fast, and impactful. All the abilities have a purpose and their effects are off the charts. The direction this is going is perfect!

    The only critique I would give is that some of the animations felt a little too much like a "slide-show". In the sense that it went from one pose to another way too quickly. I would personally enjoy a smoother transiison in the weapon his, can be seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAUJRQM8INY&amp;t=4173s @ 35:35
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    AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    SpaceWolf wrote: »
    I'm especially partial to Consuming Lethal Blow and Blood Fusion - from my perspective as a probable subclass Fighter, Blood Fusion seems like the least replacable part of the kit. Both abilities provide a form of health and mana recursion in exchange for engaging with the target, which is one of my favorite things to do in a wide variety of games (MOBAs, TCGs, single player RPGs, etc), so I'm really happy it exists here.

    A general note here is that this is our group member who is least able to keep track of things or extrapolate, so if you ever want to know what we perceive the 'average person' understands about Ashes, Intrepid, she's a good person to 'watch'.

    Normally I spend more time 'getting her caught up' and correcting misconceptions (sometimes this results in no post at all), but this time I didn't, so yes, this does 'imply' that she still kinda views secondary Archetype as closer to 'Subjob' and expects Augments that 'mimic the abilities'. (I did explain to her that it's not that she gets any abilities, but I did need to do that, which is probably about what you can expect from people who don't read the Wiki as much, even if they're around people who are more invested)
    SpaceWolf wrote: »
    I like the concept of Exert, but rather than toning down the raw numbers too much, perhaps add an HP drain-over-time effect as a tradeoff while it's active? It'd mean you gotta think more carefully about when to deploy it; using it at low health becomes fairly risky instead of a potential Get Out Of Bad Situation Free card, and it has the potential for interesting interactions with Blood Fusion, and any future abilities that have added effects when your HP is low. I rather like Dark Knight in FFXI, which has abilities that do indeed trade HP or defense for power, so I'm a bit biased here, but I think Exert is an appropriate place to apply that philosophy.

    Similarly, this was not written with 'Augment option' in mind, as much.
    SpaceWolf wrote: »
    Also, will Lunging Assault function if you're Snared or whatnot? I assume not, and that instead, it simply prevents those effects from being APPLIED while active, but does not IGNORE the ones that are on you currently. I'm assuming this because Unstoppable Exert specifically says it's usable through CCs and Lunging Assault doesn't, but figured I'd check.

    This is probably important to think about? I'd actually have assumed Lunging Assault could be a CC break on Highswords or something.

    Finally, since a second post isn't likely to be forthcoming, and since it's a simple enough postscript, I'm 'asked' to note that your PvE, to SpaceWolf, is 'just filler' to the point where 'giving feedback on it', didn't even come to mind.

    Not sure if that's the feedback type the team is looking for relative to the area you did PvE through, but I mention it because it's the 'even our most casual player doesn't think the PvE shown has any meaning'.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
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