Hey. I'll keep it "short", please bare with me. I'm an experienced gamer, with a preference for MMORPGS. Over my years of playing games I have discovered what is essential to a fun gameplay experience (for me). The core gameplay often loops, same activities over and over in the weekly grinds. This can quickly get boring, the solution is simple but easier said than done - Make it fun to push the buttons. If combat is engaging, action-combat where I'm rarely stuck in animation or lose control of my character for too long (responsive to my key inputs, not stuck in CC or animations), it ends up feeling great and games that did this successfully have been the most fun I've had (Blade & Soul to mention an example).
Now to how this pertains to Ashes of Creation: The Fighter showcase made combat seem a bit lacking, (Static? Flat? Non-engaging) I would highly recommend (although I recognize this is wishful thinking) and request that you add a dodge mechanic, one that is responsive and not delayed by being stuck in other animations. Possibly too late to add one, but if possible it would add a little bit more engagement to the core combat loop.
I mentioned B&S earlier, what they did right was high-speed, reaction-time needing, skill-based combat. Contantly using I-frames and dodges to avoid damage. When your character was stunned, if you spam clicked "F" (default button) you could break out of the stun sooner, the faster you reacted the faster you got out. You also had (in some cases) 0.5 seconds to push "F" to counter enemy attacks. This resulted in a gameplay experience where it was "fun to push to buttons" (and rewarding if done skillfully) during combat. I realize your game is different, and will never be like this. But I figured I would share it in case it may be to your benefit. Unlikely I presume, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
TL;DR combat seemed a bit sluggish, could speed it up slightly, and if possibly add a dodge mechanic. Engaging, interactive combat scenarios make for fun combat, as the primary game-play loop, it's paramount for it to be feel good and fun. Good luck, I look forward to playing your finished game, however it might pan out in the end.
and bring back his identity, since he seems more like a swordsman than a fighter.
Here you have a perfect demonstration of a berserker fighter, which is almost similar to the one they showed in the video they showed of the fighter a while ago but a little more elaborate.
Make the fighter with an action combat system, since the target tab is obsolete. Replace mana in fighters and opt for fury or energy. Mana is perfect in wizards, druids, and necromancers because they are wizard archetypes.
Those are my concerns, but in general the game looks incredible in terms of graphics and improving how the character moves. I trust that the developers will do a great job in developing the classes.
Seeing group unity since that's how it was showcased is needed.
Only seeing one handed fighter strike 20 time's I get the idea..
So the tank losses argo and a caster grabs it and runs around while the tank chases after the mob .lol humm No. that seems like a bad mechanic or impression.
There should be a hate dump caster might get or healer for sure. For when the mob say leave for well who ever is doing most damage or the healer cat keep the tank up and they get argo...
Everything's great BUT: Please make the gore go down, there's too much splatter going on, not only with the blood but especially with the SOUND! There's so much sludgy squishy sound that just won't fit the attacks and the enemies and which honestly sounds rather disgusting to me (sorry).
Make Blitz usable without a target so that it's used for mobility.
With Lunging Assault AND Exert giving the fighter CC immunity, Blitz being a targeted skill is it too powerful and unfun to play against for ranged classes. I know this from experience because I've played Archer and Mage in Archeage which had a similar fighter class. And the fact that this game doesn't have iframe dodging doesn't help.
Blitz- I would get rid of the yellow glow on the character and have both hands on the weapon since it's 2 handed. I would also like to be able to use it without a target to close distance or escape.
- Blitz. Again, why is it targeted? It is a very powerful skill on its own. A gapcloser that can even be used to reach higher or lower ground. Adding autotarget to it is unfun and unfair. Please remove the target mechanic so that the player is required to aim and calculate the distance. This way, Blitz will require more from the player, but in compensation, it will let Fighters use the skill freely in any direction without targeting.
However, one immediate change i'd like to see, is to remove the Target requirement from Blitz, so you can Blitz in whatever direction you're looking, so it can also be used to move OUT of AoEs and IN to healing range in PvP and PvE encounters!
Does Blitz require a target to cast? And if so, is there any particular reason why?
My concern is that an ability like Blitz, which is essentially the character just dashing super fast up to the enemy, requiring a target is immersion-breaking, and feels bad in a game where other abilities can be fired off without a target.
It doesn't make much sense in the player's mind, or even in the mechanics of the world, why a person in Verra can only run very fast when running at an enemy.
This is a reason why I consider GW2 my favourite MMO ability-wise. It doesn't have these kinds of frivolous restrictions unless it makes absolute sense for the skill. Every "Charge" ability can be casted out of combat without a target at will, albeit with a fixed distance that is sometimes smaller than the max distance it can reach when targetting an enemy. And will actually even auto-redirect to an enemy ahead of the player (assuming they have auto-aquire turned on)
Essentially, my complaint boils down to, "If you want it to require a target, rename it or give it a flavour reason as to why that is, because otherwise it makes it feel game-y."
If a game lets you free-fire an arrow or fireball in any direction at will, there's no reason why a fighter shouldn't be able to dash in any direction at will. Such a limitation only reminds a player that this world is just a game.
what do you think about making the "Blitz" attack useable without having a target? Would for sure feel good to travel through the world.
Let's imagine that you are playing Tank and Blitz is untargeted. How are you planning to protect your Mage and Cleric when Fighter jumps around them?
That's a huge non-issue for many reasons.
You just use the tank equivalent movement option to follow them.
it has a cooldown, meaning it won't always be available.
The cooldown means he's now stuck behind enemy lines where he can easily be focused down. He's also a alone so likely he's not going to do the damage to kill them by himself. Meanwhile, your team now has free access to their squishies as well. Anybody whos played with a Reinhardt in OW definitely understands this.
your mage and cleric have their own cc/ escapes to deal with a fighter
Edit: I would like to take this opportunity to ask again what I asked in my previous comment and would also like to ask that y'all at intrepid that keep such in mind when making abilities for all archetypes in general if you agree with it.
Y'all have already done such a great job of creating an immersive world, while also actually considering our opinions! I personally know you are listening to us directly because I saw the movement away from basic CC's after the immense anti-stun thread I made a few years ago. I have comple faith in your abilities to make this game amazing.
Make every Autoattack chargeable! This way you can hold the mouse button when ever you want and do heavy blows to your enemies. There could be a system that does the following: hold mouse button 2 seconds enemy gets pushed back, 3 seconds enemy gets a hard push back, 4 seconds enemy will fall over.
I think you should build more creative Armour sets, for example: make an amber stone armor as a light weight armour( make thin layert shiny metal plates under the amber stone to let it shine. Use nature's diversity for creating items. There is so much stuff out there, for example : an armour made of salt crystals, it's good against dark energy ( some people believe that it doesn't matter) so in the game it could be good against dark magic, Don't make item-lvls! Let the armour itself define your way of playing. This dragon drops this amour, it's a heavy armour, it's stats are like so and so it's good for this and that. Item-lvl destroy creative gameplay and experience! Thank you
As an addition to my feedback post earlier in this thread:
For what it's worth, I would reverse the order for individual ability reveals during the live stream.
Currently, you will spend a good amount of time explaining an ability and then you'll show it. I would reverse that.
People want to actually see the ability first and foremost. So I'm pretty sure a lot of the info you're hoping to convey is lost behind a pile of "OMG, just hit the button!"
I think if you just show it first a couple times, that gets out of the way. Then a larger part of the audience will be more open and attentive to a longer explanation.
I hope someone from the design team will read this regarding warriors, i myself think an ability like heroic throw ( wow warrior skill) is pretty nice to have but it serves little purpose. What if we redesign the ability to leave a circle around the area that you throw and then when you do the leap strike into it, you can get an additional effect like a damage buff or maybe a CC like trip ( knockdown)
This is just an idea but im pretty sure you get the gist, I want to make it feel like a fantasy of a real warrior
I really like the fighter class. It's good that you have many different possibilities to skill it instead of one that's clearly better than others. I also like the procs on weapon combos a lot. Visually, things look great; I like the amount of blood and the overall effects. Finisher skills have to look more epic though, in my opinion, at least when you actually finish someone with them. The basic momentum-building skills also could be a little bit more epic, but I understand they shouldn't be the most flashy since they are more like in-between spammable skills. The basic combo looks really good. The armor and the general scene are looking great. Orcs are also looking good. I understood that there will be a difference between swords, axes, maces, etc., which is really good.
This actually got me very hyped for the game! looks like it's getting better and better! tho Fluidity matters A LOT in games like this, and the abilities look kinda like 30frames if even that? should be 60+, assuming that's already the goal but had to be said either way
imo a combat system like Black Desert online would be absolutely SOLID for this game!
fast pace, fluid, smooth transitions and chain combos, visual effects on point etc. but it's looking fantastic so far can't wait to see the rest
Something that was discussed in office hours was the idea that this current iteration doesn't leave much room for fighter to be a "weapon master"
Everyone has different ideas on how that should look, but I think Fighters should either have access to unique weapon skill ending talents (eg. end of longsword tree might be 'way of the sword', reducing the cooldown and increasing the effectiveness of active parrys) or, if weapon skill and class skill points end up separate, fighter should have access to more weapon skill points than other classes
We also discussed the role of ranged attacks with Fighters: I think most people agree keeping it short range is probably for the best, but some synergy with the shortbow and the base fighters abilities could be really cool to see: close range Legolas was brought up as an example of that sort of style.
im evil, i spoke at the end of the office hours. i just wanna say, some of you guys make me wonder if youve ever played a large scale pvp game. so i feel i need to lay down some principles for everyone, intrepid and the players, for how melee succeeds.
first off, we need to lose the "fighter is jack of all trades, master of none" philosphy. thats a good way to make a class that is either totally useless, or the only class worth playing. let archers specialize in bows, wizards with staffs.. etc, etc. if you want to see how that plays out look at lineage 2. any character can use any weapon, but that doesnt mean they should use any weapon.
second, the only valid point i heard from the pve crowd was that fighter should have less magic, more something else. that doesnt disclude the ability bar, but i think the effects should be less gold-ey and more blood and dirt colored. obviously they need a mana-like bar, but rename it and most people will be happy.
subnote on my second point, the skill that lets you regain mana and health from attacking shouldnt be on the fighter. that skill is clearly inspired by vamp rage from lineage 2, where fighters can only get it from the buffer/healer classes warcryer and se. thats good, give that skill as a buff to the bard, so there can be synergy between bards and fighters.
and lastly, and most importantly, fighters fill the melee aoe niche. archers and mages are ranged damage, and daggers are high single target melee dps. the only damage niche left is aoe melee damage. thats the fighter. for that spec to work in pve, you dont need much. a single target spec'ed warrior would be great for leveling or doing pve content, imo. but for pvp, that single target spec should, and is going to, run into problems. the main problem is they wont have the health of a tank, so theyll die fast. and they wont have the damage of a traditional glass cannon build like the mage or archer. you make the fighter class relavent by giving it a simple to use class kit, enough mobility to get through the line of engagement quickly, and the aoe debuffs/cc's to make that breakthrough potentially meaningful, but you dont give them the damage to just invalidate the other dps classes.
if anyone is curious how this plays, see the warlord from lineage 2 gracia-high five chronicles. they are terrible in pvp, unless they can find a way to get into the backline. from there they are a menace. and their skills reflect that. they have something like 5 relavent skills to use, only 1 skill is ranged and only 1 skill isnt an aoe, and they get a gap closer in high 5. thats perfect. they have a simple gameplay style because the player needs to be using all their mental energy on reading the battlefield and picking a position and timing that allows them to get in and do their thing.
I loved almost everything I saw in the showcase. My primary concern coming out of it was visual clutter in combat. The amount of spell and skill effects going off in just a 4 man party was already getting to the point where it risked being overwhelming - a full party or raid would be OTT without either encounter design being based around peeling off specific mobs into smaller groups (too difficult) or filters in your settings to tone down the VFX (gameplay issue considering that enemy information is derived by visual inspection and not looking at your HUD).
This post is carrying on in more detail from something I brought up during the office hours discussion about RNG based CC immunity/breaks and the importance behind a different design approach with solutions included:
The topic was specifically referring to the form of fluidity shown in the fighter showcase. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe in simple terms it gives 40% chance to resist CC at full momentum. Picture shown below:
I'm aware single abilities can be adjusted easily if they are unbalanced, so this is more about discussing the general design philosophy behind combining RNG with extremely important effects like CC immunity and why I think that is bad for the gameplay experience, for both the person playing and who they are fighting. So I'd like to use this particular ability as a way to explain that and also suggest better ways of achieving the same design intention but with a better overall gameplay experience, which could also be applied to many other areas of class design for different kinds of effects.
First I'll start by clarifying the goal that is trying to be achieved from this ability/form, so that the suggestions I offer later can lead to that same goal:
I believe it is pretty clear that the design intention for this form was to have a more "tanky" or resistible and less controllable stance to allow the fighter to shrug off some crowd controls and not be shut down as much. This would be useful for the fighter for situations like chasing someone who is being peeled for, or when surrounded by multiple enemies and need to not be chain CC'd in order to fight back or escape.
I love the intention behind this form and think it would be very useful for the fighter to have at their disposal, however I do not like the method in which that goal is achieved or the resulting gameplay experience that would create, which I will outline below.
So WHY is this bad?
Having something as important as CC immunity/breaks be entirely RNG dependent usually results in a very bad and unsatisfying gameplay experience as being CC'd or not, or successfully CC'ing your opponent or not can be one the most major factors in deciding who wins a fight. This is bad for both sides.
For example, the person who is playing the fighter switches to the form of fluidity thinking they're not going to be locked down as much, but then the fight proceeds as so:
--- Their 40% CC immunity works in their favor on a 0.5 second stun and they immune it, but then they get unlucky and it doesn't work on the following barrage of stuns and other CCs, causing them to be rendered useless and killed and they sit there wondering why they even bothered trying to use that form when it didn't seem to do anything useful for them.
Or on the other side of the RNG coin, the fight instead proceeds as so:
--- Their 40% CC immunity doesn't work on the 0.5 second stun, but then they get lucky and it works on the majority of the incoming barrage of stuns and other CCs, causing them to resist being locked down and kill their opponent. Then the fighter sits there thinking wow this form is insane they couldn't shut me down, and then the next fight the opposite happens and they get mad again. Meanwhile the other players they just killed are sitting there mad that none of their CCs seemed to do anything.
Now not every fight would be so polarizing of course, but just by the nature of RNG some most definitely would and while I do not have an issue with RNG being included with some aspects of combat, I do not think it should be the sole factor of extremely important fight deciding effects like CC immunity. The point is, when a player gets to the end of the fight and looks back trying to ask themselves what they did wrong or could improve on and the answer is that they just got unlucky and winning or losing the fight wasn't even in their hands, it's problematic for enjoyment and doesn't result in very satisfying fights that lean more into skill or improvement.
So how do you fix this while still achieving the same goals; a form that can shrug off some CC and not be locked down as easily?
I have a few suggestions that could be altered or developed further, the first one's design focuses around a more consistent effect to give reliability and would read like this: ---"While in this form, the caster receives +5% reduced CC duration per 10 combat momentum, up to a maximum of 50%"
This kind of effect at maximum momentum would cause a 4 second stun to only last for 2 seconds. Now while this isn't exactly CC immunity like the original design had, it still achieves a similar goal of being locked down for less time and feeling more CC resistant as a whole, just in a way that is far more reliable and consistent and would not result in fights where the fighter gets lucky or unlucky on the timing or effectiveness of RNG and wins or loses based on that.
If specifically CC immunity was a definite desire in this form rather than the above suggestion of CC duration reduction, then there are also other methods to achieve this which don't rely on RNG.
This suggestion is more focused on predictability as a means to make the ability more reliable and would read something like this: --- "If you are CC'd 2 times within x seconds, you resist the next CC that hits you within x seconds.
This way the player can actually predict and play around their CC immunity. If they have been hit by 2 CC's they know the next one they will be resisted and can consciously use that to their advantage in many ways like to use a channelled ability with less risk of it being interrupted, or to play around their targets CC options and give their opponent a false sense of security in order to bait out an important or long cooldown CC.
This also gives room for other players to play around it which raises the skill ceiling further, if they are paying attention and know that their next CC will be resisted they can use that to make the choice to flee, or use a lower cooldown CC to remove that immunity. All of these kinds of combat dynamics make for a much more engaging and satisfying experience and can really add to the skill expression of the game rather than something that could have so much depth being watered down to a coinflip RNG based system.
Does it achieve the same goal?
Something like this absolutely achieves the same design intention. If using the above suggestion, then given it happens within the time constraints of the ability, 1 in every 3 CCs will be resisted which is 33% on average. This is very close to the 40% on average that would occur from the original design, however using this method would remove those edge cases where the fighter immunes 6 CC's in a row and there's nothing else their opponent can do, or where they resist none of the CC's thrown at them and they get mad at the game and their class and never use that form again. Both suggestions could even be combined into one form, which would make CC's that do hit you be less effective while also providing some CC immunity in a reliable manner. Not only would this kind of design shift reduce player frustration on both ends, but it would allow the fighter to play around their immunity and use it to their advantage as I explained above.
If this kind of thinking is extrapolated to other abilities and effects for other archetypes or systems in the game regarding RNG then I truly think it will result in a much more enjoyable, rewarding and satisfying gaming experience for players on both ends. And again I am not opposed to RNG entirely as it can make things more interesting, however I think it belongs on less important effects not on things as crucial to a fights outcome like CC immunity.
Hello, I enjoyed the melee Fighter class update. I was worried it was going to disappoint but I was pleasantly surprised.
I like the direction for the melee fighter class.
Aspects that I enjoyed:
-Dashes and elevation change dashes are great.
-Abilities had good weight and impact especially for an Alpha phase demo.
-Melee auto attacks no longer having the distracting Yellow/white whoosh arc pathing trail effect is a big win. The game looks cleaner and more appealing with those swing effects removed.
-The augment or ability upgrade that increased the path linear slam ability was nice. I like the theme of that ability upgrade direction.
-Abilities all look nice. As your testing and development phases progress one thing I'd suggest is to start to think about designing class/role combat abilities with some form of design flow intent in mind. It may not need to be fully fleshed out but for all classes I don't know if I've seen the abilities yet tie into one another well. The abilities seem a bit disjointed and that's something I'd look to tie in together to make more fluid. This will help with developing the Action oriented combat feel of the game for those that want to lean into it. Even the mage demo felt disjointed in thinking about it.
Aspects that need work as I see it:
-Melee auto attacks look janky with too many frames missing from the swings. Kind of like a retro side-scroller melee attack look and feel.
-I'd like to see more CC potential through augmentation potentially. The one leg slash slow ability is not enough.
-Mana for melee fighter felt off to me. I'm not interested in managing mana as a melee fighter class. I get that changing the color and giving it a different name (rage, stamina, whatever) has the same overall impact on game play but I do think it's important to differentiate melee physical classes from Magic caster classes in playstyle and feel for no other reason that it gives the game more replay value when we try out new classes with a fresh character going through the games content. By using the same mana management mechanics the game's combat may feel stale more quickly than otherwise if the mechanics governing the classes were unique.
Nice job on the melee class. I'm looking forward to what your team does with Summoner. Please don't make us do dance maneuver's to benefit from a Bard.
I love the fighter. After the Office Hours discussion it opened my viewpoint on what the fighter archetype should be a bit more though. Although the abilities are cool and fun, I don't think the fighter allows the range of fighters that could possibly exist (this goes for multiple archetypes shown as well). I think the mage is probably the most versatile after the showcase when it comes to archetype/class fantasy.
I think a cool way to introduce fighter would be to use the Weapon Skill Tree as their talent tree. If a Fighter were to be a swordsman, a barbarian, a warrior, etc. they would select their weapon and get certain weapon skills for the type of weapon they are using. Then the "Fighter" class abilities are more what "Essence" means to a fighter. Like stance dancing, exerting, blitz, cataclysm, heroic leap, lethal blow, etc. When they are channeling their essence to boost themselves.
People are also upset with "Lifesteal", but I understand it as an "Adrenaline" where the mechanic allows the fighter to sustain in a fight longer. Maybe instead of lifesteal you can call it bloodlust or adrenaline and satisfy those people's worries where it is still essentially lifesteal.
As I also stated in the Office Hours, I think other archetypes should be able to counterplay fighter a little bit and that's not currently possible with what we've been shown. I think Rock/Paper/Scissors is a good system, but counterplay doesn't mean you need to win every engagement, but they should have the ability to at least get away from the engagement. Once again, I don't think the fighter needs to get nerfed, but I think other archetypes should get updated to be able to have these handshakes.
_____________________________________________________________________________________ Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Watching again with fresh eyes, noticed an oddity.
When aggro or in combat the mini-map lights up red around the edges.
Own view of the mini-map is that it does not and should not have any relationship to combat execution.
Only for broader information.
Watching again with fresh eyes, noticed an oddity.
When aggro or in combat the mini-map lights up red around the edges.
Own view of the mini-map is that it does not and should not have any relationship to combat execution.
Only for broader information.
In BG3 the mini map glows red to indicate fast travel is restricted. I imagine the same applies in Ashes.
Make Blitz usable without a target so that it's used for mobility.
With Lunging Assault AND Exert giving the fighter CC immunity, Blitz being a targeted skill is it too powerful and unfun to play against for ranged classes. I know this from experience because I've played Archer and Mage in Archeage which had a similar fighter class. And the fact that this game doesn't have iframe dodging doesn't help.
Blitz- I would get rid of the yellow glow on the character and have both hands on the weapon since it's 2 handed. I would also like to be able to use it without a target to close distance or escape.
- Blitz. Again, why is it targeted? It is a very powerful skill on its own. A gapcloser that can even be used to reach higher or lower ground. Adding autotarget to it is unfun and unfair. Please remove the target mechanic so that the player is required to aim and calculate the distance. This way, Blitz will require more from the player, but in compensation, it will let Fighters use the skill freely in any direction without targeting.
However, one immediate change i'd like to see, is to remove the Target requirement from Blitz, so you can Blitz in whatever direction you're looking, so it can also be used to move OUT of AoEs and IN to healing range in PvP and PvE encounters!
Does Blitz require a target to cast? And if so, is there any particular reason why?
My concern is that an ability like Blitz, which is essentially the character just dashing super fast up to the enemy, requiring a target is immersion-breaking, and feels bad in a game where other abilities can be fired off without a target.
It doesn't make much sense in the player's mind, or even in the mechanics of the world, why a person in Verra can only run very fast when running at an enemy.
This is a reason why I consider GW2 my favourite MMO ability-wise. It doesn't have these kinds of frivolous restrictions unless it makes absolute sense for the skill. Every "Charge" ability can be casted out of combat without a target at will, albeit with a fixed distance that is sometimes smaller than the max distance it can reach when targetting an enemy. And will actually even auto-redirect to an enemy ahead of the player (assuming they have auto-aquire turned on)
Essentially, my complaint boils down to, "If you want it to require a target, rename it or give it a flavour reason as to why that is, because otherwise it makes it feel game-y."
If a game lets you free-fire an arrow or fireball in any direction at will, there's no reason why a fighter shouldn't be able to dash in any direction at will. Such a limitation only reminds a player that this world is just a game.
Can the foggy sheen be removed? I noticed in the fighter video that there is a foggy sheen on the screen - even on my 4k oled. Its not present in all parts of the video but at certain points. It makes the whole scene look washed out and horrid. It would be better if the foggy sheen was not across the whole screen.
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and bring back his identity, since he seems more like a swordsman than a fighter.
Here you have a perfect demonstration of a berserker fighter, which is almost similar to the one they showed in the video they showed of the fighter a while ago but a little more elaborate.
Make the fighter with an action combat system, since the target tab is obsolete. Replace mana in fighters and opt for fury or energy. Mana is perfect in wizards, druids, and necromancers because they are wizard archetypes.
Those are my concerns, but in general the game looks incredible in terms of graphics and improving how the character moves. I trust that the developers will do a great job in developing the classes.
Only seeing one handed fighter strike 20 time's I get the idea..
So the tank losses argo and a caster grabs it and runs around while the tank chases after the mob .lol humm No. that seems like a bad mechanic or impression.
There should be a hate dump caster might get or healer for sure. For when the mob say leave for well who ever is doing most damage or the healer cat keep the tank up and they get argo...
But there should be a mechanic to restore order
That's a huge non-issue for many reasons.
Edit: I would like to take this opportunity to ask again what I asked in my previous comment and would also like to ask that y'all at intrepid that keep such in mind when making abilities for all archetypes in general if you agree with it.
Y'all have already done such a great job of creating an immersive world, while also actually considering our opinions! I personally know you are listening to us directly because I saw the movement away from basic CC's after the immense anti-stun thread I made a few years ago. I have comple faith in your abilities to make this game amazing.
For what it's worth, I would reverse the order for individual ability reveals during the live stream.
Currently, you will spend a good amount of time explaining an ability and then you'll show it. I would reverse that.
People want to actually see the ability first and foremost. So I'm pretty sure a lot of the info you're hoping to convey is lost behind a pile of "OMG, just hit the button!"
I think if you just show it first a couple times, that gets out of the way. Then a larger part of the audience will be more open and attentive to a longer explanation.
This is just an idea but im pretty sure you get the gist, I want to make it feel like a fantasy of a real warrior
imo a combat system like Black Desert online would be absolutely SOLID for this game!
fast pace, fluid, smooth transitions and chain combos, visual effects on point etc. but it's looking fantastic so far can't wait to see the rest
Everyone has different ideas on how that should look, but I think Fighters should either have access to unique weapon skill ending talents (eg. end of longsword tree might be 'way of the sword', reducing the cooldown and increasing the effectiveness of active parrys) or, if weapon skill and class skill points end up separate, fighter should have access to more weapon skill points than other classes
We also discussed the role of ranged attacks with Fighters: I think most people agree keeping it short range is probably for the best, but some synergy with the shortbow and the base fighters abilities could be really cool to see: close range Legolas was brought up as an example of that sort of style.
first off, we need to lose the "fighter is jack of all trades, master of none" philosphy. thats a good way to make a class that is either totally useless, or the only class worth playing. let archers specialize in bows, wizards with staffs.. etc, etc. if you want to see how that plays out look at lineage 2. any character can use any weapon, but that doesnt mean they should use any weapon.
second, the only valid point i heard from the pve crowd was that fighter should have less magic, more something else. that doesnt disclude the ability bar, but i think the effects should be less gold-ey and more blood and dirt colored. obviously they need a mana-like bar, but rename it and most people will be happy.
subnote on my second point, the skill that lets you regain mana and health from attacking shouldnt be on the fighter. that skill is clearly inspired by vamp rage from lineage 2, where fighters can only get it from the buffer/healer classes warcryer and se. thats good, give that skill as a buff to the bard, so there can be synergy between bards and fighters.
and lastly, and most importantly, fighters fill the melee aoe niche. archers and mages are ranged damage, and daggers are high single target melee dps. the only damage niche left is aoe melee damage. thats the fighter. for that spec to work in pve, you dont need much. a single target spec'ed warrior would be great for leveling or doing pve content, imo. but for pvp, that single target spec should, and is going to, run into problems. the main problem is they wont have the health of a tank, so theyll die fast. and they wont have the damage of a traditional glass cannon build like the mage or archer. you make the fighter class relavent by giving it a simple to use class kit, enough mobility to get through the line of engagement quickly, and the aoe debuffs/cc's to make that breakthrough potentially meaningful, but you dont give them the damage to just invalidate the other dps classes.
if anyone is curious how this plays, see the warlord from lineage 2 gracia-high five chronicles. they are terrible in pvp, unless they can find a way to get into the backline. from there they are a menace. and their skills reflect that. they have something like 5 relavent skills to use, only 1 skill is ranged and only 1 skill isnt an aoe, and they get a gap closer in high 5. thats perfect. they have a simple gameplay style because the player needs to be using all their mental energy on reading the battlefield and picking a position and timing that allows them to get in and do their thing.
The topic was specifically referring to the form of fluidity shown in the fighter showcase. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe in simple terms it gives 40% chance to resist CC at full momentum. Picture shown below:
I'm aware single abilities can be adjusted easily if they are unbalanced, so this is more about discussing the general design philosophy behind combining RNG with extremely important effects like CC immunity and why I think that is bad for the gameplay experience, for both the person playing and who they are fighting. So I'd like to use this particular ability as a way to explain that and also suggest better ways of achieving the same design intention but with a better overall gameplay experience, which could also be applied to many other areas of class design for different kinds of effects.
First I'll start by clarifying the goal that is trying to be achieved from this ability/form, so that the suggestions I offer later can lead to that same goal:
I believe it is pretty clear that the design intention for this form was to have a more "tanky" or resistible and less controllable stance to allow the fighter to shrug off some crowd controls and not be shut down as much. This would be useful for the fighter for situations like chasing someone who is being peeled for, or when surrounded by multiple enemies and need to not be chain CC'd in order to fight back or escape.
I love the intention behind this form and think it would be very useful for the fighter to have at their disposal, however I do not like the method in which that goal is achieved or the resulting gameplay experience that would create, which I will outline below.
So WHY is this bad?
Having something as important as CC immunity/breaks be entirely RNG dependent usually results in a very bad and unsatisfying gameplay experience as being CC'd or not, or successfully CC'ing your opponent or not can be one the most major factors in deciding who wins a fight. This is bad for both sides.
For example, the person who is playing the fighter switches to the form of fluidity thinking they're not going to be locked down as much, but then the fight proceeds as so:
--- Their 40% CC immunity works in their favor on a 0.5 second stun and they immune it, but then they get unlucky and it doesn't work on the following barrage of stuns and other CCs, causing them to be rendered useless and killed and they sit there wondering why they even bothered trying to use that form when it didn't seem to do anything useful for them.
Or on the other side of the RNG coin, the fight instead proceeds as so:
--- Their 40% CC immunity doesn't work on the 0.5 second stun, but then they get lucky and it works on the majority of the incoming barrage of stuns and other CCs, causing them to resist being locked down and kill their opponent. Then the fighter sits there thinking wow this form is insane they couldn't shut me down, and then the next fight the opposite happens and they get mad again. Meanwhile the other players they just killed are sitting there mad that none of their CCs seemed to do anything.
Now not every fight would be so polarizing of course, but just by the nature of RNG some most definitely would and while I do not have an issue with RNG being included with some aspects of combat, I do not think it should be the sole factor of extremely important fight deciding effects like CC immunity. The point is, when a player gets to the end of the fight and looks back trying to ask themselves what they did wrong or could improve on and the answer is that they just got unlucky and winning or losing the fight wasn't even in their hands, it's problematic for enjoyment and doesn't result in very satisfying fights that lean more into skill or improvement.
So how do you fix this while still achieving the same goals; a form that can shrug off some CC and not be locked down as easily?
I have a few suggestions that could be altered or developed further, the first one's design focuses around a more consistent effect to give reliability and would read like this:
---"While in this form, the caster receives +5% reduced CC duration per 10 combat momentum, up to a maximum of 50%"
This kind of effect at maximum momentum would cause a 4 second stun to only last for 2 seconds. Now while this isn't exactly CC immunity like the original design had, it still achieves a similar goal of being locked down for less time and feeling more CC resistant as a whole, just in a way that is far more reliable and consistent and would not result in fights where the fighter gets lucky or unlucky on the timing or effectiveness of RNG and wins or loses based on that.
If specifically CC immunity was a definite desire in this form rather than the above suggestion of CC duration reduction, then there are also other methods to achieve this which don't rely on RNG.
This suggestion is more focused on predictability as a means to make the ability more reliable and would read something like this:
--- "If you are CC'd 2 times within x seconds, you resist the next CC that hits you within x seconds.
This way the player can actually predict and play around their CC immunity. If they have been hit by 2 CC's they know the next one they will be resisted and can consciously use that to their advantage in many ways like to use a channelled ability with less risk of it being interrupted, or to play around their targets CC options and give their opponent a false sense of security in order to bait out an important or long cooldown CC.
This also gives room for other players to play around it which raises the skill ceiling further, if they are paying attention and know that their next CC will be resisted they can use that to make the choice to flee, or use a lower cooldown CC to remove that immunity. All of these kinds of combat dynamics make for a much more engaging and satisfying experience and can really add to the skill expression of the game rather than something that could have so much depth being watered down to a coinflip RNG based system.
Does it achieve the same goal?
Something like this absolutely achieves the same design intention. If using the above suggestion, then given it happens within the time constraints of the ability, 1 in every 3 CCs will be resisted which is 33% on average. This is very close to the 40% on average that would occur from the original design, however using this method would remove those edge cases where the fighter immunes 6 CC's in a row and there's nothing else their opponent can do, or where they resist none of the CC's thrown at them and they get mad at the game and their class and never use that form again. Both suggestions could even be combined into one form, which would make CC's that do hit you be less effective while also providing some CC immunity in a reliable manner. Not only would this kind of design shift reduce player frustration on both ends, but it would allow the fighter to play around their immunity and use it to their advantage as I explained above.
If this kind of thinking is extrapolated to other abilities and effects for other archetypes or systems in the game regarding RNG then I truly think it will result in a much more enjoyable, rewarding and satisfying gaming experience for players on both ends. And again I am not opposed to RNG entirely as it can make things more interesting, however I think it belongs on less important effects not on things as crucial to a fights outcome like CC immunity.
I like the direction for the melee fighter class.
Aspects that I enjoyed:
-Dashes and elevation change dashes are great.
-Abilities had good weight and impact especially for an Alpha phase demo.
-Melee auto attacks no longer having the distracting Yellow/white whoosh arc pathing trail effect is a big win. The game looks cleaner and more appealing with those swing effects removed.
-The augment or ability upgrade that increased the path linear slam ability was nice. I like the theme of that ability upgrade direction.
-Abilities all look nice. As your testing and development phases progress one thing I'd suggest is to start to think about designing class/role combat abilities with some form of design flow intent in mind. It may not need to be fully fleshed out but for all classes I don't know if I've seen the abilities yet tie into one another well. The abilities seem a bit disjointed and that's something I'd look to tie in together to make more fluid. This will help with developing the Action oriented combat feel of the game for those that want to lean into it. Even the mage demo felt disjointed in thinking about it.
Aspects that need work as I see it:
-Melee auto attacks look janky with too many frames missing from the swings. Kind of like a retro side-scroller melee attack look and feel.
-I'd like to see more CC potential through augmentation potentially. The one leg slash slow ability is not enough.
-Mana for melee fighter felt off to me. I'm not interested in managing mana as a melee fighter class. I get that changing the color and giving it a different name (rage, stamina, whatever) has the same overall impact on game play but I do think it's important to differentiate melee physical classes from Magic caster classes in playstyle and feel for no other reason that it gives the game more replay value when we try out new classes with a fresh character going through the games content. By using the same mana management mechanics the game's combat may feel stale more quickly than otherwise if the mechanics governing the classes were unique.
Nice job on the melee class. I'm looking forward to what your team does with Summoner. Please don't make us do dance maneuver's to benefit from a Bard.
I think a cool way to introduce fighter would be to use the Weapon Skill Tree as their talent tree. If a Fighter were to be a swordsman, a barbarian, a warrior, etc. they would select their weapon and get certain weapon skills for the type of weapon they are using. Then the "Fighter" class abilities are more what "Essence" means to a fighter. Like stance dancing, exerting, blitz, cataclysm, heroic leap, lethal blow, etc. When they are channeling their essence to boost themselves.
People are also upset with "Lifesteal", but I understand it as an "Adrenaline" where the mechanic allows the fighter to sustain in a fight longer. Maybe instead of lifesteal you can call it bloodlust or adrenaline and satisfy those people's worries where it is still essentially lifesteal.
As I also stated in the Office Hours, I think other archetypes should be able to counterplay fighter a little bit and that's not currently possible with what we've been shown. I think Rock/Paper/Scissors is a good system, but counterplay doesn't mean you need to win every engagement, but they should have the ability to at least get away from the engagement. Once again, I don't think the fighter needs to get nerfed, but I think other archetypes should get updated to be able to have these handshakes.
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Current Member of the Gray Sentinels.
When aggro or in combat the mini-map lights up red around the edges.
Own view of the mini-map is that it does not and should not have any relationship to combat execution.
Only for broader information.
In BG3 the mini map glows red to indicate fast travel is restricted. I imagine the same applies in Ashes.
I'd like to bump this because I haven't seen a response from intrepid about it (particularly my comment that was quoted here)
If there was and I missed it then my bad