How do you feel about the Fighter Archetype Preview?
The second and extremely concerning topic goes back to attack animations. I brought this up during the first combat revamp dev update where the fighter was shown off with great sword and dual melee weapons. The attack animations have a weird stutter lag every time they hit the target. Which is VERY jarring to look at. I'm not sure if this is an animation problem, or an underlying system issue...But it is present in this showcase as well and it's quite upsetting to see. Quite a lot of individuals were bringing it up in the Twitch chat, and hopefully were not flooded out by the positive praise that fanboys throw out every stream. I made some gifs for examples.
Basic attack below...As you can see, there is a frozen body which results in broken looking kinematics upon hitting said target. The body freezes for a few frames and jerks into a forward frame position, which is very unpleasant.
It even happens in skills, which is surprising considering how fast the character is spinning. As a result it also desyncs the sword air slash animations, which makes everything look even worse.
Only when it's on hit, not when it misses.
Some skills don't exhibit this problem.
A couple more scenarios to show how jarring it is....
I really hope all the praise being thrown in twitch chat doesn't muffle out the actual problem this is. As I tend to always see a lot of fanboy'ism in twitch chat saying combat looks smooth, when it really doesn't. Hoping that bringing this up again is enough to get it the attention it deserves, cause it makes the game look laggy, when it's actually a problem under the hood.
If this was a design decision to convey impact, I believe this is the wrong direction to go. Being an individual who has played many MMO's, as well as L2 back at launch, just the sparks of impact and target wincing is enough coupled with the audio queues. Hoping this can be remedied, cause it's not a minor issue.
This is spot on. Thank you for breaking it down with the slowed down video. It makes the animations look laggy and stutter rather than fluid and it needs to be fixed.
Hi, I wanted to give some feedback for the ranger aswell: pls make the shooting speed much slower. spells can speed it up but it is still way to fast. Also many spells look to colorful and like in a moba game. pls don't do that to the great looking world you created.
A couple more scenarios to show how jarring it is....
I really hope all the praise being thrown in twitch chat doesn't muffle out the actual problem this is. As I tend to always see a lot of fanboy'ism in twitch chat saying combat looks smooth, when it really doesn't. Hoping that bringing this up again is enough to get it the attention it deserves, cause it makes the game look laggy, when it's actually a problem under the hood.
If this was a design decision to convey impact, I believe this is the wrong direction to go. Being an individual who has played many MMO's, as well as L2 back at launch, just the sparks of impact and target wincing is enough coupled with the audio queues. Hoping this can be remedied, cause it's not a minor issue.
@KaelinTV I believe this is intended, if you look at how BDO does it, its very similar, they skip frames to make an effect of impact,
and IMO this works, I think its a cool stylized way to make hits feel more impactful, with some polish should end up nicely,
I just want to say right off the bat that the combat, audio/visual and animation teams did such a fantastic job with the Fighter architype! Especially the audio team, the crunchiness and brutal slashing sounds are just "chef's kiss"! Okay, here is my breakdown on the class and how I felt about the abilities, animations and visuals. As well as talking about the talent trees and how I would do them in Ashes of Creation.
Momentum - The fact that this mechanic is a class resource is such a great thing. I don't know how to feel about the Fighter using mana as a resource when momentum is present. The basic combo system is something I need to do before I can leave any realistic feedback regarding momentum. I would say that there should be more Fighter abilities that use momentum as a resource.
Blitz - This charge ability is really amazing! I like how you can charge enemies up vertically, with elevations and with jumping. The animation and spell effect is really nice as well as the sound effect.
Overpower - Love the animation to this ability but just a quick question... Can this ability be charged by holding down the button?
Maim - I really hope this ability can be directionally positioned while casting. Similar to Cataclysm.
Battle Cry - The only thing I would want is to only hear my own voice while in a group or raid. The multiple voices could end up being very annoying or maybe have it as an option to turn off and on? I think the animation and blur effected looked really good. I also love how this ability is a buff for your group and a debuff for enemies.
Blood Fusion - I love this ability but without seeing proper gameplay (no offense Steven) its hard for me to see this ability in true action but the principle of the ability is sound. Get health and mana back for DPS'ing the target. Sounds good.
Cataclysm - This upgrade from the previous version is amazing! I don't mind the rooted animation for this ability but what if you can slow walk while casting similar to the Mage casting abilities? Either way, the sound, animation and FX look really good!
Crippling Blow - very nice snare ability with great animation and FX.
Exert - I think its a powerful CD for the Fighter class. I think the window is too short but that's without me testing it for myself. That can also be an augment to extent the window of Exert but higher its CD to a minute. Great animation to the player character as well!
The Forms of the Fighter - I think the forms are very interesting and provide value in different situations combat wise. I don't want Stance dancing rotationally with these forms however I want to change my forms based off of different situations that could occur either randomly in combat or something changed in combat that I need to adapt to. Also the Form Of Ferocity and Form Of Fluidity on the ashes wiki are the same tooltip.
Leap Strike - I love the leap and animation however the light burst when landing is too much and a bit blinding. Tone down the visual VFX to the landing and we are good. Always love more mobility!
Rupture - The consistent blood splatter is a bit much. I think there should be a small burst of blood initially and when the debuff goes out, a larger splatter of blood. The sound FX is wonky because of the consistent blood splatter coming from the enemy. Other than that, I love this ability and what it does.
Brutal Cleave - Nothing to say about this ability. Its fine.
Whirlwind - Nothing to say about this ability. Looks great! I lied. The additional attack when augmented should do something more than just more damage or more basic attack. Maybe provide a debuff of some kind to the enemy. Maybe cause an additional chance to cause shaken.
The Fighter Talent Tree
Basic feedback is where do you start from? I understand that this talent tree is a functional tree for you the developers but it is confusing as all hell to us gamers. What is the point of the arrows? Are you forcing us to go in a certain direction by choosing an ability? Please give us a obvious starting point in the tree and actually give us better routes to abilities and have passives that can buff the fighter. I would really like Brian to talk about the philosophy on these talent trees? What is the current thinking on what goes in the tree, for example, do we only want actual abilities with augments to those abilities only? We need a better foundation for this system and whatever you come up with, by giving us your new philosophy, we can better leave feedback. I would personally start over with the tree and see what you guys come up with.
So... What does the Fighter Class Lack?
A hard stun maybe 3 seconds long at a base level for the Fighter class. A melee interrupt for spell casting is needed for sure. Would like to see more single target options for abilities as there were many AoE options for skills. I feel like certain classes should lack certain qualities in abilities in order to bring those other classes. I don't know what the team wants the Fighter class to lack in that sense so I left feedback according to what I thought was missing.
Overall, I was greatly pleased with the updated melee combat and what the Fighter class offers in terms of abilities, sounds, VFX and animations. 7/10 overall and that is impressive for an pre-alpha state of an MMORPG! Keep going Intrepid!
Just an observation after rewatching the fighter presentation once more. The gap-closing ability of the fighter has me worried that squishy ranged classes will be face-rolled by a fighter because they have so many gap closers, movement speed buffs, resistance to movement speed impairments, and cripple effects that all combined no one will be able to flee from them once attacked. Please make sure to balance the mobility of the class so it does not overpower and destroy other classes' ability to deal with that. I have found that Mobility, CCs, and Stealth are some of the most powerful aspects of the MMORPG game. The lack of combat mobility makes for a frustrating game. The overpowering of one class to the point where they can CC lock others in combat is bad. Stealth is one of the most powerful abilities in an MMORPG. I remember when GW2 first came out and in WvW the Perma stealth thief builds coupled with CC stun and burst DPS would one-shot almost every other class in the game before they even had time to react. Just make sure the Fighter class flying around the battlefield is countered by equally capable classes. To have a plate armor melee two-hander PvPer being able to stay on top of you 24/7 as a mage in cloth armor is not finding the Fun for the Mage class.
Gap closing abilities should be affected by terrain if it is between you and the target.
The Blitz going up vertically looked unrealistic and unnatural.
Why should a Ranger bother finding an elevated position at distance if another melee class target can just magically levitate and scale walls to be instantly right in their face?
Not every class needs to have the ability to do things that is the province of other classes. Unless you want a pile of slightly different flavored all rounders.
The girl watched the last of the creatures die and murmured a soft 'Thank you' to her rescuer.
The stranger's eyes lifted to the blood red cloud on the horizon.
I cannot comment on the abilities and flow of combat of the Fighter archetype as I haven't had an experience with it myself as well as Steven maxing out all of the skill trees at level 15 which made it hard to gauge the playability and feasability of the archetype.
What I can and would like to comment on however, like many others here, I share the same sentiment that the freeze frame effects are overtuned. Freeze frames are often used to indicate melee resistance in video games. Personally, I prefer for it to be slowed down animation instead of frame freezing. Frame freezing is fine but currently, your implementation is too heavy on the eyes. Feels like it's about 1 to 1.5s of freeze. Ideally, it should be a lot shorter. 250-500ms at most.
Secondly, I know animations are still being worked on so I hope that the player feet will be more grounded when launching an attack. As of now, it looks like the player's feet are floating as the model moves around while an attack is being executed. I'm not asking for you to fixed the player in place while attacking, instead the animations hopefully when it's completed, it includes all the motions to display a realistic human locomotion.
Love the direction of the fighter so far. Especially the rupture skill. Hoping the skills trees eventually get to more than 1/1 for everything. I still think the spell effects are too bright. The designs of them are great I just think everything needs to be more translucent or something. Some of the effects keep giving me the old school batman "pow" decal feel.
I suggest to implement a weight system for armor and weapons. Reduce movement speed and attack speed as a percentage to weight of the worn armor or weapon. For example: with hemp pants you are faster than with iron leg armor.
An interjection for the fighter/mage or mage/fighter class:
- The respective magic form should be transferable to the weapons
- The respective magic form should have to be renewed after a certain period of time bcs it makes the game more interesting
- The weapons should have additional passive and active abilities corresponding to the respective magic form:
passive ecamples: slow(frost), set on fire(fire), swirl(wind)etc.
active examples: Frost, fire, wind, ligtning, water bolt after 5 attacks, or an area attack with frost, water, fire, wind or similar as with the Maim ability, furthermore it would be possible to combine attacks like brutal cleave with the respective magic form, so that you can still reach the target in front of you even if it is further away than in melee range, also a whirlwind of fire, frost or wind itself would be possible ( make it bigger than the normal one.)
But I would recommend being more creative than just morphing the warrior attacks. Add additional useful abilities that make the game experience more interesting, such as freezing river sections or ponds (you can cross the river section faster than the others, or make enemies slip and fall over) setting terrain on fire (good for controlling battles or cutting off paths, etc.) or creating windy sections in the environment that reduce your running speed, etc. Always remember to make the game experience interesting and varied.
2. Fighter Ability Discussion - What do you like, and what concerns do you have about the look and feel of the abilities shared for the Fighter Archetype? (THIS INCLUDES CLASS SKILL TREE)
Excited:
Abilities can be chained into each other very fluidly.
Good mix of action/tab.
Ability Concerns:
Hit frames need to be toned down so doesn't appear as choppy. (The technique is good, just needs to be toned down, not removed)
Lack of counterplay/reactive abilities. For example:
Parry/Riposte (against incoming damage)
Guard Breaker (against shields)
Lack of counterplay abilities allows people to force same rotations every encounter.
Skill Tree Concerns:
Needs to be more organized, and prioritize functionality over form. I would prefer a format that's more readable and follows either a left to right, or top to bottom flow. I noticed that the archetype skill trees are shaped off of the archetypes fantasy (whirlwind, bow&arrow, etc), and don't think the novelty of that is worth making the skill trees messy.
3. Weapon Progression Tree - How do you feel about the current direction of the weapon progression tree, based on the Greatsword progression tree shared during the Fighter Preview? These are separate progression trees that you unlock and advance in while you are adventuring with a specific weapon type.
Excited:
The "+" sign icons (WEAPON TRAINING) offer players more freedom to carve out class identity. Would like these to be focused on over just picking stat increases.
Concerns:
Needs to be more organized. Its difficult to see any sort of pattern in how its organized, and its all just a bunch of circles, so it looks hard to navigate/differentiate different sections.
A lot of different upgrade paths (weapon training/combo extender/combo procs) thrown onto the same window without any labeling.
Gap closing abilities should be affected by terrain if it is between you and the target.
The Blitz going up vertically looked unrealistic and unnatural.
Why should a Ranger bother finding an elevated position at distance if another melee class target can just magically levitate and scale walls to be instantly right in their face?
Not every class needs to have the ability to do things that is the province of other classes. Unless you want a pile of slightly different flavored all rounders.
Overall very impressive early iteration. I really liked the impactfulness that many of the abilities had.
I would like to see more continuity in the ability VFX. All red "bloody" slashes, etc. Could be interesting to have them all change based on the current active "stance" too.
The whirlwind ability could use some hitlag to bring it inline with the feeling of the other abilities.
The abilities shown were all really nice, but I hope to see more in the future that aren't purely focused on damage. The kit could use just a bit more utility. At least as an optional spec. Maybe as a subclass so you could opt in to different niches.
The basic attacks really fell flat for me. They felt slow and unimpactful. I would like to see them also get some trailing VFX or something. They looked very small especially when shown next to the abilities.
Love where you're headed with the weapon trees, but I do not like the idea of chance-based procs. Ideally I'd like to see more, impactful branching paths and fewer stat increases.
The ability that causes earthen spikes to protrude from the ground is a bit too much. I'd prefer something with less visual clutter. Maybe earthquake fault lines that spread out from the point of impact.
I like that the fighter carries a bit of the berserker archetype in it since you don't have a class dedicated to that archetype. I would be ecstatic if their were even more ways to lean into that eventually.
I really appreciate the mobility you gave the fighter. Too often melee classes are relegated to dying before they even get to the enemy. I'm very glad to see that addressed so early.
If you'd like a reference point for a well designed fighter, please consider Black Desert's greatsword awakening. It perfectly encapsulates the fighter fantasy.
Visually, the Fighter showcased looked great. I really liked the equipment, and the character was perfectly bulked for the power fantasy. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let me make a human race character that size. And with that same mohawk. I can forgive everything else, but do not slight me on this.
I felt the mob density was good enough. Respawn rates were fine as well. I would really like to know what leash ranges will look like. I'd like to be able to pull huge groups to really test group abilities.
The environment is phenomenal. All of it. Nailed it.
The goblins sound great, but a little loud. If I'm going to be grinding for hours, I'd prefer they were a touch quieter.
The mage spell VFX are still a bit too much sometimes. The blizzard and ice carpet in particular are very bright and cover a large area. Giving them some opacity could a fun way to curb that and stay on theme with the ice element.
Cleric's chain heal spell just doesn't look good to me. The way it jumps from target to target in a straight line really feels odd and immersion breaking. It looks like an old videogame effect.
Criticisms aside, this game is really starting to look amazing. I can't wait for the full release. You guys are gonna nail it.
For up: I'm an action combat fan and my main games are BDO and New World.
I like most of the skills, but I'm currently not happy with the basic attacks. I would prefer it hands and legs aren't separated but combined and the movement is incorporated in the attacks (like New World) as footwork is an important part of martial arts like swordsmanship . This gives the attacks more weight and you know when you are attacking and when not. It also would help with fixing another problem I have with the current AOC combat . This problem is that half the combat people are standing still [ I don't mind the heavy hitter skills (think it was cataclysm | "yellow rocky skill " )with their charge up, there it is correct to stand still and charge up] just doing there thing instead of even small side or front moves (This problem is seen in tap target in general).
Things to be considered with movement on (basics) attack: range of movement and homing. I'd recommend getting a bit into the Great Axe in New World during release times. It had a strong homing effect during release times and led to people being unable to run from them but after a few nerfs the homing and movements was so low that people doing the basic attacks had way too few homing to somewhat do consecutive attacks leading to a attack --> dodge --> attack combo.
Combat in general: As I said earlier I think that the combat currently has a bit too much still standing and dmg trading then I would like see. I'm not really sure what changes would be nice to see apart from the basic attacks tho.
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Overall I think the showcase was done really well.
I normally do not play melee / fighter class, however this one looked really good. I really enjoyed the animations of the skills, the mobility the class had, and the atk/movement speed generation.
I also loved the normal attack combo weaving along with the momentum build up.
When balancing comes in Beta 1, I think this class kit will really shine.
I don't wanna be rude but the skills have unnecessary yellow p**s flying around. It is cheap way to make the skill look like something. I am gonna just copypaste here what I wrote to Asmongolds video:
I just wish effect/animation artists would stop making every skill look like anime laser show. It's definitely ok for magic to look bright and flashy but I want my physical classes to be brutal, bloody and not flashy. I don't want to see some ugly yellow p**s flying across the screen when swinging sword around unless I am playing a class that does holy dmg with it's attacks and there is reason for the effect.
I want to see clean sword swing and bloody effects when hitting the enemy. Or small sparks etc. when hitting plate armor etc.
Even the "Roar" is throwing p**s around. Why not make it warp the screen and give small blur effect for a sec for your character. Could even be used in PvP situations by making the screen shake, warp and blur for a moment when warrior uses the skill near you. Minimalistic is the better way to go ahead when trying to make skills feel impactful. More there is bright lights flashing the screen for no reason, less impactful the gameplay is. Good example is how Dragons Dogma 2 does the skills: Physical skills are toned down, fast, brutal and have powerful feeling behind them while magical skills like sorcerers skills are flashy in realistic way, they have meaning behind them and makes sense. And bad example is basically everything what games like FFXIV have.
Minimal, toned down and realistic is what makes the combat feel purposeful and interesting. Flashy colors that make zero sense make the combat cheap and boring. Those also make it annoying to play after sun goes down and complicates what user sees on the screen which leads to things like combat being too hard which means that everything gets nerfed or if possible addons will make the game easier (looking at you Weakauras and DBM).
It is easy to overcomplicate things when making effects/UI and so on. I do that as well but I always look at what I made afterwards and try to remove as much as possible from it and then add more again.
Way too many games unfortunately just take the easy route and add pointless laser shows to compensate the quality of the animations and graphics. Ofc that is just my own opinion but there is reason why games like WoW is still alive and why it is still see as best MMO when it comes to combat.
This showcase of the fighter is definitely an improvement from the previous version but here is some lackluster things I saw:
• Attack speed and movement speed is kinda boring as stance buffs from momentum
• Exert is giga boring how it just adds all stance buffs but I like the idea of a reset/berserk/escape button.
• Whirlwind adding a front attack in the end is weird and doesn't fit the ability. Makes it a super long ability.
Would have wished seeing a spec option like an aoe suction, aoe slow or adding a DOT to everyone hit or
something more fun and usable.
• Would absolutely liked seeing the health bars on all the mobs not just the one targeted.
Things that was cool
• Sound effects on the abilities is starting to get pretty good.
• I like how you can change how an ability works and looks in the spec option.
• Stances is always usable and a good addition. Like a mini respec of the class on the go.
• Weapon specialization is cool and hopefully different weapons feel unique to one another and not just one weapon is best for everything.
So hard to give feedback without playing but here is a list of things I have liked from a melee dps class in other games:
• Big bonker finisher
• Self buffs
• Channeled melee single target dps ability
• Knockdown/stun
• Some nice aoe, aoe dots and aoe debuffs
• Single target debuffs to make your group deal more damage to them
• Good mobility if the class is on the weaker side
• Some group utility
• Self sustain
I have not played many different mmos but in Warhammer online that I have a ton of hours into I main a White lion which is a melee class with a pet. Best experience of a melee class in a mmo I have had.
Pounce in, debuff, knockdown, combo with your pet and boom, dead. So much fun!
I like the animations and visual effects. I hope the spells that look big and impactful (Cataclysm AoE) are as big and impactful as they look, and have appropriately long cooldowns. I'd be really sad if the game doesn't sport a few 2-5 minute cooldown abilities for each class.
God mode Exert is a good start. I would like more high cooldown high cost abilities like it - both in the form of short duration buffs, and slow, high-cost abilities to cast on opponents and allies.
Mind you, none of this should have to to compromise the long time-to-kill Ashes has promised. You just balance it with resource cost, and around the fact that some short-duration high-impact buffs can be countered with CC or mobility.
In the same vein, I disapprove of Cataclysm letting you drastically change the direction during the windup. It should have weight, so you should definitely not be able to turn more than a few degrees after entering the windup. And even that adjustment I would limit the turn speed for.
Sidenote: Speaking of highly impactful but high-cost, and still balanced, skills, has made me think about a skill that could be really cool for the tank.
How about you let the tank boost his damage by like 5x for 3-5 seconds, but with the major caveat that any player in the melee range (or perhaps only a player that the boosted tank is actively attacking) can double-click the tank in order to use his own character to lock the tank in place. To allow the tank to force one player to deal with the tank for the duration of the buff, while still granting agency to everyone involved, and requiring a certain level of skill in decision-making from the other players.
Wouldn't really work for a fighter because the fighter would escalate too much with it, but feels like a really fun idea for a tank.
No one but yourself can validate you for all the posts you *didn't* write.
Hey. I'll keep it "short", please bare with me. I'm an experienced gamer, with a preference for MMORPGS. Over my years of playing games I have discovered what is essential to a fun gameplay experience (for me). The core gameplay often loops, same activities over and over in the weekly grinds. This can quickly get boring, the solution is simple but easier said than done - Make it fun to push the buttons. If combat is engaging, action-combat where I'm rarely stuck in animation or lose control of my character for too long (responsive to my key inputs, not stuck in CC or animations), it ends up feeling great and games that did this successfully have been the most fun I've had (Blade & Soul to mention an example).
Now to how this pertains to Ashes of Creation: The Fighter showcase made combat seem a bit lacking, (Static? Flat? Non-engaging) I would highly recommend (although I recognize this is wishful thinking) and request that you add a dodge mechanic, one that is responsive and not delayed by being stuck in other animations. Possibly too late to add one, but if possible it would add a little bit more engagement to the core combat loop.
I mentioned B&S earlier, what they did right was high-speed, reaction-time needing, skill-based combat. Contantly using I-frames and dodges to avoid damage. When your character was stunned, if you spam clicked "F" (default button) you could break out of the stun sooner, the faster you reacted the faster you got out. You also had (in some cases) 0.5 seconds to push "F" to counter enemy attacks. This resulted in a gameplay experience where it was "fun to push to buttons" (and rewarding if done skillfully) during combat. I realize your game is different, and will never be like this. But I figured I would share it in case it may be to your benefit. Unlikely I presume, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
TL;DR combat seemed a bit sluggish, could speed it up slightly, and if possibly add a dodge mechanic. Engaging, interactive combat scenarios make for fun combat, as the primary game-play loop, it's paramount for it to be feel good and fun. Good luck, I look forward to playing your finished game, however it might pan out in the end.
Make Blitz usable without a target so that it's used for mobility.
With Lunging Assault AND Exert giving the fighter CC immunity, Blitz being a targeted skill is it too powerful and unfun to play against for ranged classes. I know this from experience because I've played Archer and Mage in Archeage which had a similar fighter class. And the fact that this game doesn't have iframe dodging doesn't help.
Blitz- I would get rid of the yellow glow on the character and have both hands on the weapon since it's 2 handed. I would also like to be able to use it without a target to close distance or escape.
- Blitz. Again, why is it targeted? It is a very powerful skill on its own. A gapcloser that can even be used to reach higher or lower ground. Adding autotarget to it is unfun and unfair. Please remove the target mechanic so that the player is required to aim and calculate the distance. This way, Blitz will require more from the player, but in compensation, it will let Fighters use the skill freely in any direction without targeting.
However, one immediate change i'd like to see, is to remove the Target requirement from Blitz, so you can Blitz in whatever direction you're looking, so it can also be used to move OUT of AoEs and IN to healing range in PvP and PvE encounters!
Does Blitz require a target to cast? And if so, is there any particular reason why?
My concern is that an ability like Blitz, which is essentially the character just dashing super fast up to the enemy, requiring a target is immersion-breaking, and feels bad in a game where other abilities can be fired off without a target.
It doesn't make much sense in the player's mind, or even in the mechanics of the world, why a person in Verra can only run very fast when running at an enemy.
This is a reason why I consider GW2 my favourite MMO ability-wise. It doesn't have these kinds of frivolous restrictions unless it makes absolute sense for the skill. Every "Charge" ability can be casted out of combat without a target at will, albeit with a fixed distance that is sometimes smaller than the max distance it can reach when targetting an enemy. And will actually even auto-redirect to an enemy ahead of the player (assuming they have auto-aquire turned on)
Essentially, my complaint boils down to, "If you want it to require a target, rename it or give it a flavour reason as to why that is, because otherwise it makes it feel game-y."
If a game lets you free-fire an arrow or fireball in any direction at will, there's no reason why a fighter shouldn't be able to dash in any direction at will. Such a limitation only reminds a player that this world is just a game.
First things first.
Great job with the fighter! Congrats to everyone in the team!
I really liked the animations and how the interact with each other as well the overall fantasy of the fighter.
I wouldn't call it a concern, more like an intrusive thought as i was watching, will the fighter need to have mana stats on gear? I believe all the get mana back mechanics would suffice but this will need testing. Also from what i got in the preview bards have a way to give mana to party.
With all the mobility and resets it will be nice to see how other classes can counter that or if they have similar mechanics
I can't wait to see how it feels to plays because the attack speed stacking that also makes animations faster looks great in general but at least in my mind fighter is more heavy hitting than fast hitting. It would be fun to swing something huuuuge around
I think the 2h sword looks a bit small and thin on the bulky Ren'kai but maybe thats just me and mace or axe would look bulkier.
Is the name "form" final? Unless its lore related it seems simple.
Again great job overall and tell Steven to get some sleep
I like this iteration of the Fighter loadout. The only criticisms I have are cosmetic.
The bleed visual effect of Rupture is way too much. Rather than sending excessive blood everywhere, focus it into a single arc, ideally shooting out in the direction the Rupture attack came from. That way you get the high visibility of copious amount of blood, but it's not overwhelming. Also, it would be cool if the color of the blood changed for certain types of enemies.
I like the re-work to the visuals for Cataclysm, but I have a hard time determining where the edge of the AOE is.
In the Fighter Archetype youtube video, at 36:19 there is a strange distortion that covers the whole screen when Steven used Leap Strike. I didn't see it the other times he used that skill. Whatever it is, I don't like it.
Seeing that much blood that pairs with the sound effects of the wet sloshing of blood being pooled. Again, I'm fine with blood effects but the ones shown are over the top. No one has that much blood in their body. They would be dead on a single tick. Remove or tame it down pls.
This is the first update I could not finish. The gore was over the top for me. I have to say, having that debuff hitting my character. Seeing that much gore coming out of my Avatar would have me quickly logging off.
Looked great, love the overall direction and love the variety in their kit.
Great that the gap closer can span heights making this a quasi movement ability. Would be nice if you could spec it into a stun break too, as a form of escape. That would add a defensive element to the ability. I think abilities should all be designed to be used in multiple ways.
The animations looked great, a little choppy but great.
The kit reminds me of Knights in SWTOR and Warriors in GW2. The gap closer in particular reminded me of Force Leap which is probably the most enjoyable gap closer I've ever seen.
The freedom of movement reminded me of GW2s Warriors. However GW2 combat in general felt too "floaty", you seemed to have fixed that issue. The class moved like it had real wieght, we'll have to test the feel of it more in A2 to be sure.
So the movement of the CA is brilliant, but new games all have this to some point but didn't exist in my era and I want to see more like a taunt, rescue, not sure what Ca a fighter has but building agro and what position with vary low refresh not rescue tho lol
What I would like to see is a description of the CA.
I played 3 classes as mains
And uses 30+ CA but say my brighten class I would start with my fifth CA. And that discussion might say -300 to enemy mitigation
Hit target for x refresh is 30 seconds if it lands depending on spells quality and there like 8-9 grads
2nd Ca might lower dodge, stun,slow
Interrupt.
3rd might lower poison damage basically at debunks as that was the briggins job and once the Mob was debuffed I would start my damage CA watching the threat priority meter so I didn't hit 100 witch would spin the raid boss to me either because of hate or damage as I'm then number 1 on the parser. All the time sneaking in de argo CA arts added to emotes saying in raid chat my attempts to spin the mob back to the tank where he belongs and not cause him to use a rescue. And I could get 1-3 hit shotted . Or a healer could then target me and heal me witch is a big no no then the healer gets agro and well. The raid wipes..
Dono about you but fighter might parse like 8 out of 40 in raid or 3rd a group of 6
The fighter and the healer get the Fame!
You have to have military execution in groups or raids You had to know mob pathing do a tank spin in dungeon and raid.
Also will you be adding tag markers so as a group member that target the main tank or MA that person could see threw there eyes and see there target on top of labeling mobs with icons?
Comments
@KaelinTV I believe this is intended, if you look at how BDO does it, its very similar, they skip frames to make an effect of impact,
and IMO this works, I think its a cool stylized way to make hits feel more impactful, with some polish should end up nicely,
The Fighter Talent Tree
Basic feedback is where do you start from? I understand that this talent tree is a functional tree for you the developers but it is confusing as all hell to us gamers. What is the point of the arrows? Are you forcing us to go in a certain direction by choosing an ability? Please give us a obvious starting point in the tree and actually give us better routes to abilities and have passives that can buff the fighter. I would really like Brian to talk about the philosophy on these talent trees? What is the current thinking on what goes in the tree, for example, do we only want actual abilities with augments to those abilities only? We need a better foundation for this system and whatever you come up with, by giving us your new philosophy, we can better leave feedback. I would personally start over with the tree and see what you guys come up with.
So... What does the Fighter Class Lack?
A hard stun maybe 3 seconds long at a base level for the Fighter class. A melee interrupt for spell casting is needed for sure. Would like to see more single target options for abilities as there were many AoE options for skills. I feel like certain classes should lack certain qualities in abilities in order to bring those other classes. I don't know what the team wants the Fighter class to lack in that sense so I left feedback according to what I thought was missing.
Overall, I was greatly pleased with the updated melee combat and what the Fighter class offers in terms of abilities, sounds, VFX and animations. 7/10 overall and that is impressive for an pre-alpha state of an MMORPG! Keep going Intrepid!
The Blitz going up vertically looked unrealistic and unnatural.
Why should a Ranger bother finding an elevated position at distance if another melee class target can just magically levitate and scale walls to be instantly right in their face?
Not every class needs to have the ability to do things that is the province of other classes. Unless you want a pile of slightly different flavored all rounders.
The stranger's eyes lifted to the blood red cloud on the horizon.
'We have to move. It's not safe here.'
What I can and would like to comment on however, like many others here, I share the same sentiment that the freeze frame effects are overtuned. Freeze frames are often used to indicate melee resistance in video games. Personally, I prefer for it to be slowed down animation instead of frame freezing. Frame freezing is fine but currently, your implementation is too heavy on the eyes. Feels like it's about 1 to 1.5s of freeze. Ideally, it should be a lot shorter. 250-500ms at most.
Secondly, I know animations are still being worked on so I hope that the player feet will be more grounded when launching an attack. As of now, it looks like the player's feet are floating as the model moves around while an attack is being executed. I'm not asking for you to fixed the player in place while attacking, instead the animations hopefully when it's completed, it includes all the motions to display a realistic human locomotion.
- The respective magic form should be transferable to the weapons
- The respective magic form should have to be renewed after a certain period of time bcs it makes the game more interesting
- The weapons should have additional passive and active abilities corresponding to the respective magic form:
passive ecamples: slow(frost), set on fire(fire), swirl(wind)etc.
active examples: Frost, fire, wind, ligtning, water bolt after 5 attacks, or an area attack with frost, water, fire, wind or similar as with the Maim ability, furthermore it would be possible to combine attacks like brutal cleave with the respective magic form, so that you can still reach the target in front of you even if it is further away than in melee range, also a whirlwind of fire, frost or wind itself would be possible ( make it bigger than the normal one.)
But I would recommend being more creative than just morphing the warrior attacks. Add additional useful abilities that make the game experience more interesting, such as freezing river sections or ponds (you can cross the river section faster than the others, or make enemies slip and fall over) setting terrain on fire (good for controlling battles or cutting off paths, etc.) or creating windy sections in the environment that reduce your running speed, etc. Always remember to make the game experience interesting and varied.
2. Fighter Ability Discussion - What do you like, and what concerns do you have about the look and feel of the abilities shared for the Fighter Archetype? (THIS INCLUDES CLASS SKILL TREE)
Excited:
Ability Concerns:
Skill Tree Concerns:
3. Weapon Progression Tree - How do you feel about the current direction of the weapon progression tree, based on the Greatsword progression tree shared during the Fighter Preview? These are separate progression trees that you unlock and advance in while you are adventuring with a specific weapon type.
Excited:
Concerns:
Yes, so true
I would like to see more continuity in the ability VFX. All red "bloody" slashes, etc. Could be interesting to have them all change based on the current active "stance" too.
The whirlwind ability could use some hitlag to bring it inline with the feeling of the other abilities.
The abilities shown were all really nice, but I hope to see more in the future that aren't purely focused on damage. The kit could use just a bit more utility. At least as an optional spec. Maybe as a subclass so you could opt in to different niches.
The basic attacks really fell flat for me. They felt slow and unimpactful. I would like to see them also get some trailing VFX or something. They looked very small especially when shown next to the abilities.
Love where you're headed with the weapon trees, but I do not like the idea of chance-based procs. Ideally I'd like to see more, impactful branching paths and fewer stat increases.
The ability that causes earthen spikes to protrude from the ground is a bit too much. I'd prefer something with less visual clutter. Maybe earthquake fault lines that spread out from the point of impact.
I like that the fighter carries a bit of the berserker archetype in it since you don't have a class dedicated to that archetype. I would be ecstatic if their were even more ways to lean into that eventually.
I really appreciate the mobility you gave the fighter. Too often melee classes are relegated to dying before they even get to the enemy. I'm very glad to see that addressed so early.
If you'd like a reference point for a well designed fighter, please consider Black Desert's greatsword awakening. It perfectly encapsulates the fighter fantasy.
Visually, the Fighter showcased looked great. I really liked the equipment, and the character was perfectly bulked for the power fantasy. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let me make a human race character that size. And with that same mohawk. I can forgive everything else, but do not slight me on this.
I felt the mob density was good enough. Respawn rates were fine as well. I would really like to know what leash ranges will look like. I'd like to be able to pull huge groups to really test group abilities.
The environment is phenomenal. All of it. Nailed it.
The goblins sound great, but a little loud. If I'm going to be grinding for hours, I'd prefer they were a touch quieter.
The mage spell VFX are still a bit too much sometimes. The blizzard and ice carpet in particular are very bright and cover a large area. Giving them some opacity could a fun way to curb that and stay on theme with the ice element.
Cleric's chain heal spell just doesn't look good to me. The way it jumps from target to target in a straight line really feels odd and immersion breaking. It looks like an old videogame effect.
Criticisms aside, this game is really starting to look amazing. I can't wait for the full release. You guys are gonna nail it.
For up: I'm an action combat fan and my main games are BDO and New World.
I like most of the skills, but I'm currently not happy with the basic attacks. I would prefer it hands and legs aren't separated but combined and the movement is incorporated in the attacks (like New World) as footwork is an important part of martial arts like swordsmanship . This gives the attacks more weight and you know when you are attacking and when not. It also would help with fixing another problem I have with the current AOC combat . This problem is that half the combat people are standing still [ I don't mind the heavy hitter skills (think it was cataclysm | "yellow rocky skill " )with their charge up, there it is correct to stand still and charge up] just doing there thing instead of even small side or front moves (This problem is seen in tap target in general).
Things to be considered with movement on (basics) attack: range of movement and homing. I'd recommend getting a bit into the Great Axe in New World during release times. It had a strong homing effect during release times and led to people being unable to run from them but after a few nerfs the homing and movements was so low that people doing the basic attacks had way too few homing to somewhat do consecutive attacks leading to a attack --> dodge --> attack combo.
Combat in general: As I said earlier I think that the combat currently has a bit too much still standing and dmg trading then I would like see. I'm not really sure what changes would be nice to see apart from the basic attacks tho.
I normally do not play melee / fighter class, however this one looked really good. I really enjoyed the animations of the skills, the mobility the class had, and the atk/movement speed generation.
I also loved the normal attack combo weaving along with the momentum build up.
When balancing comes in Beta 1, I think this class kit will really shine.
Great job Intrepid!
I just wish effect/animation artists would stop making every skill look like anime laser show. It's definitely ok for magic to look bright and flashy but I want my physical classes to be brutal, bloody and not flashy. I don't want to see some ugly yellow p**s flying across the screen when swinging sword around unless I am playing a class that does holy dmg with it's attacks and there is reason for the effect.
I want to see clean sword swing and bloody effects when hitting the enemy. Or small sparks etc. when hitting plate armor etc.
Even the "Roar" is throwing p**s around. Why not make it warp the screen and give small blur effect for a sec for your character. Could even be used in PvP situations by making the screen shake, warp and blur for a moment when warrior uses the skill near you. Minimalistic is the better way to go ahead when trying to make skills feel impactful. More there is bright lights flashing the screen for no reason, less impactful the gameplay is. Good example is how Dragons Dogma 2 does the skills: Physical skills are toned down, fast, brutal and have powerful feeling behind them while magical skills like sorcerers skills are flashy in realistic way, they have meaning behind them and makes sense. And bad example is basically everything what games like FFXIV have.
Minimal, toned down and realistic is what makes the combat feel purposeful and interesting. Flashy colors that make zero sense make the combat cheap and boring. Those also make it annoying to play after sun goes down and complicates what user sees on the screen which leads to things like combat being too hard which means that everything gets nerfed or if possible addons will make the game easier (looking at you Weakauras and DBM).
It is easy to overcomplicate things when making effects/UI and so on. I do that as well but I always look at what I made afterwards and try to remove as much as possible from it and then add more again.
Way too many games unfortunately just take the easy route and add pointless laser shows to compensate the quality of the animations and graphics. Ofc that is just my own opinion but there is reason why games like WoW is still alive and why it is still see as best MMO when it comes to combat.
• Attack speed and movement speed is kinda boring as stance buffs from momentum
• Exert is giga boring how it just adds all stance buffs but I like the idea of a reset/berserk/escape button.
• Whirlwind adding a front attack in the end is weird and doesn't fit the ability. Makes it a super long ability.
Would have wished seeing a spec option like an aoe suction, aoe slow or adding a DOT to everyone hit or
something more fun and usable.
• Would absolutely liked seeing the health bars on all the mobs not just the one targeted.
Things that was cool
• Sound effects on the abilities is starting to get pretty good.
• I like how you can change how an ability works and looks in the spec option.
• Stances is always usable and a good addition. Like a mini respec of the class on the go.
• Weapon specialization is cool and hopefully different weapons feel unique to one another and not just one weapon is best for everything.
So hard to give feedback without playing but here is a list of things I have liked from a melee dps class in other games:
• Big bonker finisher
• Self buffs
• Channeled melee single target dps ability
• Knockdown/stun
• Some nice aoe, aoe dots and aoe debuffs
• Single target debuffs to make your group deal more damage to them
• Good mobility if the class is on the weaker side
• Some group utility
• Self sustain
I have not played many different mmos but in Warhammer online that I have a ton of hours into I main a White lion which is a melee class with a pet. Best experience of a melee class in a mmo I have had.
Pounce in, debuff, knockdown, combo with your pet and boom, dead. So much fun!
God mode Exert is a good start. I would like more high cooldown high cost abilities like it - both in the form of short duration buffs, and slow, high-cost abilities to cast on opponents and allies.
Mind you, none of this should have to to compromise the long time-to-kill Ashes has promised. You just balance it with resource cost, and around the fact that some short-duration high-impact buffs can be countered with CC or mobility.
In the same vein, I disapprove of Cataclysm letting you drastically change the direction during the windup. It should have weight, so you should definitely not be able to turn more than a few degrees after entering the windup. And even that adjustment I would limit the turn speed for.
Sidenote: Speaking of highly impactful but high-cost, and still balanced, skills, has made me think about a skill that could be really cool for the tank.
How about you let the tank boost his damage by like 5x for 3-5 seconds, but with the major caveat that any player in the melee range (or perhaps only a player that the boosted tank is actively attacking) can double-click the tank in order to use his own character to lock the tank in place. To allow the tank to force one player to deal with the tank for the duration of the buff, while still granting agency to everyone involved, and requiring a certain level of skill in decision-making from the other players.
Wouldn't really work for a fighter because the fighter would escalate too much with it, but feels like a really fun idea for a tank.
Now to how this pertains to Ashes of Creation: The Fighter showcase made combat seem a bit lacking, (Static? Flat? Non-engaging) I would highly recommend (although I recognize this is wishful thinking) and request that you add a dodge mechanic, one that is responsive and not delayed by being stuck in other animations. Possibly too late to add one, but if possible it would add a little bit more engagement to the core combat loop.
I mentioned B&S earlier, what they did right was high-speed, reaction-time needing, skill-based combat. Contantly using I-frames and dodges to avoid damage. When your character was stunned, if you spam clicked "F" (default button) you could break out of the stun sooner, the faster you reacted the faster you got out. You also had (in some cases) 0.5 seconds to push "F" to counter enemy attacks. This resulted in a gameplay experience where it was "fun to push to buttons" (and rewarding if done skillfully) during combat. I realize your game is different, and will never be like this. But I figured I would share it in case it may be to your benefit. Unlikely I presume, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
TL;DR combat seemed a bit sluggish, could speed it up slightly, and if possibly add a dodge mechanic. Engaging, interactive combat scenarios make for fun combat, as the primary game-play loop, it's paramount for it to be feel good and fun. Good luck, I look forward to playing your finished game, however it might pan out in the end.
Let's imagine that you are playing Tank and Blitz is untargeted. How are you planning to protect your Mage and Cleric when Fighter jumps around them?
Great job with the fighter! Congrats to everyone in the team!
I really liked the animations and how the interact with each other as well the overall fantasy of the fighter.
I wouldn't call it a concern, more like an intrusive thought as i was watching, will the fighter need to have mana stats on gear? I believe all the get mana back mechanics would suffice but this will need testing. Also from what i got in the preview bards have a way to give mana to party.
With all the mobility and resets it will be nice to see how other classes can counter that or if they have similar mechanics
I can't wait to see how it feels to plays because the attack speed stacking that also makes animations faster looks great in general but at least in my mind fighter is more heavy hitting than fast hitting. It would be fun to swing something huuuuge around
I think the 2h sword looks a bit small and thin on the bulky Ren'kai but maybe thats just me and mace or axe would look bulkier.
Is the name "form" final? Unless its lore related it seems simple.
Again great job overall and tell Steven to get some sleep
The bleed visual effect of Rupture is way too much. Rather than sending excessive blood everywhere, focus it into a single arc, ideally shooting out in the direction the Rupture attack came from. That way you get the high visibility of copious amount of blood, but it's not overwhelming. Also, it would be cool if the color of the blood changed for certain types of enemies.
I like the re-work to the visuals for Cataclysm, but I have a hard time determining where the edge of the AOE is.
In the Fighter Archetype youtube video, at 36:19 there is a strange distortion that covers the whole screen when Steven used Leap Strike. I didn't see it the other times he used that skill. Whatever it is, I don't like it.
it only makes sense to follow more of a mature theme even across vfx, Verra is not Disneyland and I love that.
Great that the gap closer can span heights making this a quasi movement ability. Would be nice if you could spec it into a stun break too, as a form of escape. That would add a defensive element to the ability. I think abilities should all be designed to be used in multiple ways.
The animations looked great, a little choppy but great.
The kit reminds me of Knights in SWTOR and Warriors in GW2. The gap closer in particular reminded me of Force Leap which is probably the most enjoyable gap closer I've ever seen.
The freedom of movement reminded me of GW2s Warriors. However GW2 combat in general felt too "floaty", you seemed to have fixed that issue. The class moved like it had real wieght, we'll have to test the feel of it more in A2 to be sure.
What I would like to see is a description of the CA.
I played 3 classes as mains
And uses 30+ CA but say my brighten class I would start with my fifth CA. And that discussion might say -300 to enemy mitigation
Hit target for x refresh is 30 seconds if it lands depending on spells quality and there like 8-9 grads
2nd Ca might lower dodge, stun,slow
Interrupt.
3rd might lower poison damage basically at debunks as that was the briggins job and once the Mob was debuffed I would start my damage CA watching the threat priority meter so I didn't hit 100 witch would spin the raid boss to me either because of hate or damage as I'm then number 1 on the parser. All the time sneaking in de argo CA arts added to emotes saying in raid chat my attempts to spin the mob back to the tank where he belongs and not cause him to use a rescue. And I could get 1-3 hit shotted . Or a healer could then target me and heal me witch is a big no no then the healer gets agro and well. The raid wipes..
Lesson is know your class know every class lol
I’d much rather see a dwarf yield a hammer than a sword.
The fighter and the healer get the Fame!
You have to have military execution in groups or raids You had to know mob pathing do a tank spin in dungeon and raid.
Also will you be adding tag markers so as a group member that target the main tank or MA that person could see threw there eyes and see there target on top of labeling mobs with icons?