The ttk in the stream was much too long and most spells not impactful enough
The thing about the stream, though, is that you have to know who to watch.
Some characters died quickly, others died slowly because of a specific thing you can see, others didn't get focused hard enough to die, and only two (that I saw) got focused and still had enough flow to not die.
The Phoenix Initiative people would have to tell us for certain, but the stream definitely did not look to me like 'normal play' except if you were looking at Tradd or Keenan.
(yes, I've done the analysis of it, but only as an observer, which isn't useful for discussion, particularly when I don't know why certain players didn't just get focused down by the three enemies close to them, and instead they spread out the battle TL style, I don't know what the motivation for doing that was).
Basically though I'mma be that person and say:
"The stream didn't represent the TTK well enough, consistently."
PI members can ofc dispel this notion of mine instantly since they're the ones with the real experience.
EDIT: Actually I have a sorting method!
If you watch the Node Wars Preview stream from timestamp 34:08 until 34:25 and you think that the TTK there was too slow.
(yes, I've done the analysis of it, but only as an observer, which isn't useful for discussion, particularly when I don't know why certain players didn't just get focused down by the three enemies close to them, and instead they spread out the battle TL style, I don't know what the motivation for doing that was).
Having listened to several PIs from the Winstead side, it was all due to scripting of the overall fight. Miraleth people were so much weaker that Winstead leaders had to tell their players to slow down and let Miraleth win from time to time. Maybe not in all fights, but definitely near the Spike at the end.
(yes, I've done the analysis of it, but only as an observer, which isn't useful for discussion, particularly when I don't know why certain players didn't just get focused down by the three enemies close to them, and instead they spread out the battle TL style, I don't know what the motivation for doing that was).
Having listened to several PIs from the Winstead side, it was all due to scripting of the overall fight. Miraleth people were so much weaker that Winstead leaders had to tell their players to slow down and let Miraleth win from time to time. Maybe not in all fights, but definitely near the Spike at the end.
That is exactly what I expected and for those who believe me, this isn't because of thinking it was scripted from the start.
It's because I can see from the battle flow and tactics that Winstead was so focused and Miraleth so comparatively unfocused that there was no way Miraleth would win without Winstead slowing down.
There are definitely multiple points in that stream where they 'let someone get away' when they don't have to, or when Tradd dives into an enemy group for a trade that could have been resolved without that being necessary.
Not everyone plays perfectly, and that's a good simulation of that too, but it doesn't tell us as much about TTK. I can list the specific points where I personally feel like we got 'a real TTK' (not a real risk vs reward viewpoint).
34:08 is Tradd's 'dive', 34:26 is a dual-kill after a successful Javelin pull. There are others, but those are the ones that give us 'pure' TTK data for group battle (and for the 34:08 one, technically some real info on solo).
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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TTK felt good. You need good structure and tactics if you plan to win here.
The ttk in the stream was much too long and most spells not impactful enough
Possibly, I was thinking that at times too. However, I think the fact that people were keeping range and using cooldowns added to that. If they were being over cautious to not die on camera then it's probably all fine.
The ttk in the stream was much too long and most spells not impactful enough
Possibly, I was thinking that at times too. However, I think the fact that people were keeping range and using cooldowns added to that. If they were being over cautious to not die on camera then it's probably all fine.
The problem with the TTK on stream was that Steven was level30(?) with 3k hp and the rest was lvl15 with ~1k hp (as a fighter) and less as other classes. I think that it was intentionally so he could showcase stuff and not be focussed 100% on gameplay, but that should maybe have been said too at the start of the stream with the ui stuff because this was missable.
When other people fought it actually looked fine imo.
The ttk in the stream was much too long and most spells not impactful enough
Possibly, I was thinking that at times too. However, I think the fact that people were keeping range and using cooldowns added to that. If they were being over cautious to not die on camera then it's probably all fine.
The problem with the TTK on stream was that Steven was level30(?) with 3k hp and the rest was lvl15 with ~1k hp (as a fighter) and less as other classes. I think that it was intentionally so he could showcase stuff and not be focussed 100% on gameplay, but that should maybe have been said too at the start of the stream with the ui stuff because this was missable.
When other people fought it actually looked fine imo.
It's not just Steven, though, there is at least one (I think 3) other points where someone is level 20 and only barely escapes a 'sorta 2v1', 'because of it'.
I don't have a problem with this sort of thing, even if it is scripted or Winstead was asked not to win too hard.
But yeah we should probably care more about what the various players say about how the TTK feels, rather than any TTK 'data' from stream.
And even moreso, TTK will feel different for different people because of their preferences in game style. For me, this TTK is slightly too slow for the game type that Ashes is, but since I don't like the Shotcaller game style in the first place and it has to be this way to keep the Rangers in check, it seems fine for those who like that type.
The TTK question puzzles me a lot. It entirely depends on the scenario and skill levels and builds of participants, and how action-dodges factor in (if they still plan to add it). Most people can probably agree that dying in 1 second or less sucks, and most people don't want to spam abilities for 5 minutes before seeing the tide turn. Other than that, it's just twiddling knobs to get healing and protection and damage and mitigation in line.
The TTK question puzzles me a lot. It entirely depends on the scenario and skill levels and builds of participants, and how action-dodges factor in (if they still plan to add it). Most people can probably agree that dying in 1 second or less sucks, and most people don't want to spam abilities for 5 minutes before seeing the tide turn. Other than that, it's just twiddling knobs to get healing and protection and damage and mitigation in line.
Did you hear Steven's motivational speech on the subject in the Q&A? There's definitely merit to having time to kill fast enough to make it possible to kill people in zergs before their allies can outzerg your strategic move. Being able to catch people off guard is valuable, and with far too high of a TTK, the game just becomes a numbers simulator, even if you can still dodge and counter some things to express skill.
You're not wrong, combat can be good with reasonably high or low TTK, but there's still a lot to be decided in the bigger picture by the target TTK. MMOs need a higher TTK than arena battlers because people should be given reasonable time to react to their much larger surroundings, but they still need it to be low enough that mistakes can matter more than gear and pure group numbers
I think the main problem with the discussion is imprecise terminology. Even if it could be agreed upon that TTK refers to a single player hitting a single opponent who's not defending themselves, there are still so many components. Like distance at the start of combat. Class differences. And then you still haven't answered what group combat looks like with and without defences.
I think what we saw in the node war was pretty nice. We saw people able to take a beating while targeted by many opponents, and we also saw people focused down relatively quickly (i.e.: not every ability you use on an opponent is lethal, meaning there are stronger and weaker abilities to choose between, which is a great indication for combat resource design.)
If the final combat involving all classes and equipment types looks similar to what we've seen, I'll be fairly happy with it.
No one but yourself can validate you for all the posts you *didn't* write.
The TTK question puzzles me a lot. It entirely depends on the scenario and skill levels and builds of participants, and how action-dodges factor in (if they still plan to add it). Most people can probably agree that dying in 1 second or less sucks, and most people don't want to spam abilities for 5 minutes before seeing the tide turn. Other than that, it's just twiddling knobs to get healing and protection and damage and mitigation in line.
TLDR People will trying to say the 10-15 ttk accounted dodging, healing, builds, skills, group comps, etc. (Think that is a false take as you can't account for all that. and why 10-15 ttk will feel longer in waves or based on your skill level)
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The thing about the stream, though, is that you have to know who to watch.
Some characters died quickly, others died slowly because of a specific thing you can see, others didn't get focused hard enough to die, and only two (that I saw) got focused and still had enough flow to not die.
The Phoenix Initiative people would have to tell us for certain, but the stream definitely did not look to me like 'normal play' except if you were looking at Tradd or Keenan.
(yes, I've done the analysis of it, but only as an observer, which isn't useful for discussion, particularly when I don't know why certain players didn't just get focused down by the three enemies close to them, and instead they spread out the battle TL style, I don't know what the motivation for doing that was).
Basically though I'mma be that person and say:
"The stream didn't represent the TTK well enough, consistently."
PI members can ofc dispel this notion of mine instantly since they're the ones with the real experience.
EDIT: Actually I have a sorting method!
If you watch the Node Wars Preview stream from timestamp 34:08 until 34:25 and you think that the TTK there was too slow.
That is exactly what I expected and for those who believe me, this isn't because of thinking it was scripted from the start.
It's because I can see from the battle flow and tactics that Winstead was so focused and Miraleth so comparatively unfocused that there was no way Miraleth would win without Winstead slowing down.
There are definitely multiple points in that stream where they 'let someone get away' when they don't have to, or when Tradd dives into an enemy group for a trade that could have been resolved without that being necessary.
Not everyone plays perfectly, and that's a good simulation of that too, but it doesn't tell us as much about TTK. I can list the specific points where I personally feel like we got 'a real TTK' (not a real risk vs reward viewpoint).
34:08 is Tradd's 'dive', 34:26 is a dual-kill after a successful Javelin pull. There are others, but those are the ones that give us 'pure' TTK data for group battle (and for the 34:08 one, technically some real info on solo).
Possibly, I was thinking that at times too. However, I think the fact that people were keeping range and using cooldowns added to that. If they were being over cautious to not die on camera then it's probably all fine.
The PI has spoken!
It still looked too sus, but it probably fits for the game type.
My own main reference for the aspect of it I was personally looking for is 47:12 onward.
What was even going on there?
The problem with the TTK on stream was that Steven was level30(?) with 3k hp and the rest was lvl15 with ~1k hp (as a fighter) and less as other classes. I think that it was intentionally so he could showcase stuff and not be focussed 100% on gameplay, but that should maybe have been said too at the start of the stream with the ui stuff because this was missable.
When other people fought it actually looked fine imo.
It's not just Steven, though, there is at least one (I think 3) other points where someone is level 20 and only barely escapes a 'sorta 2v1', 'because of it'.
I don't have a problem with this sort of thing, even if it is scripted or Winstead was asked not to win too hard.
But yeah we should probably care more about what the various players say about how the TTK feels, rather than any TTK 'data' from stream.
And even moreso, TTK will feel different for different people because of their preferences in game style. For me, this TTK is slightly too slow for the game type that Ashes is, but since I don't like the Shotcaller game style in the first place and it has to be this way to keep the Rangers in check, it seems fine for those who like that type.
There is the one true verdict xD.
Though to expand on it so people know why did it feel good to you?
Did you hear Steven's motivational speech on the subject in the Q&A? There's definitely merit to having time to kill fast enough to make it possible to kill people in zergs before their allies can outzerg your strategic move. Being able to catch people off guard is valuable, and with far too high of a TTK, the game just becomes a numbers simulator, even if you can still dodge and counter some things to express skill.
You're not wrong, combat can be good with reasonably high or low TTK, but there's still a lot to be decided in the bigger picture by the target TTK. MMOs need a higher TTK than arena battlers because people should be given reasonable time to react to their much larger surroundings, but they still need it to be low enough that mistakes can matter more than gear and pure group numbers
I think the main problem with the discussion is imprecise terminology. Even if it could be agreed upon that TTK refers to a single player hitting a single opponent who's not defending themselves, there are still so many components. Like distance at the start of combat. Class differences. And then you still haven't answered what group combat looks like with and without defences.
I think what we saw in the node war was pretty nice. We saw people able to take a beating while targeted by many opponents, and we also saw people focused down relatively quickly (i.e.: not every ability you use on an opponent is lethal, meaning there are stronger and weaker abilities to choose between, which is a great indication for combat resource design.)
If the final combat involving all classes and equipment types looks similar to what we've seen, I'll be fairly happy with it.
TLDR People will trying to say the 10-15 ttk accounted dodging, healing, builds, skills, group comps, etc. (Think that is a false take as you can't account for all that. and why 10-15 ttk will feel longer in waves or based on your skill level)
If we get proper active defensives like dodge, block, and parry that'll bring the TTK up even more.