Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
What's an F1 spammer? I don't know what that means.
I know we're all super coolhakahz on this forum, but the average player is in fact an F1 spammer who'll complain and leave if the enemy can super easily out-F1 him. And I know that all yall uberpros will say "well fuck em" and I would definitely agree with that, except that the game needs those fuckers to give Intrepid money.
And all the uberpros need those F1ers, so that they can fed their egos and feel good about themselves. The main counterargument for longer ttk has been "it's boring", which to me sounds more like "I want to dominate weaker people faster, because that makes me feel better than them". Except, as Mag says, this would be the case even if the ttk is longer, simply because a good player will outplay a worse player and will decrease the ttk in a major way.
someone who does this in PVP: f1f1f1f1f1f1 usually more common among ranged classes. they don't move, they don't kite, they don't take a step back, they don't heal, they just stay in place pressing f1f1f1f1 and if you take a step back they just chase you pressing f1f1f1f1
you also have the facerollers. same as the f1 spammer, the difference is the faceroller looks for a build online on some website and all they do is press f1f2f3f4f5f6. no moving, no kiting, no nothing else.
bruh 2-3 skills in l2 is like 2-3 seconds... and as you said, you have a guy oed as hell. if you mean the only video, it was more than 2-3 secs btw...it was only 2-3 secs when using damaging skills. ttk in ashes is 10-15 seconds when using damaging skills. I'm fairly certain that's without doing anything else. that's on an afk character.
as I asked the other dude, do you think intrepid measured the ttk on someone running away, kiting, hiding behind a rock, using los to cancel skills, etc?
you also have to set up your skills in ashes to a certain extent. remember you have to do normal attacks to proc something then make your skills more powerful. an example that steven gave a while back, a rogue might do extra damage with a backstab if the target is bleeding, so you have to use normal attacks until your bleed procs and lands or wait for another person to land a bleed on your enemy unless you wanna do less damage.
if we say 1 skill per second, 10-15 secs ttk is 10-15 buttons pressed, and that's if the enemy is afk and not getting any heals.
yeah exactly. id say afk tank dies in 25-30 seconds. afk healer (in heavy armor) dies in 20-25, probs a bit less in light armor.
but anyways, these chars have to be more durable (specially when using their skills) since they will take more fire than the dps.
Again i feel you have really not played a mmo in the competitive scene in AWHILE. Though not everyone is going to be up their as the best pvper the bigger the skill ceiling the more room there are for other types of players. There are going to be plenty of people not just above average but also good.
I don't agree with heir view point on zergs being fodder or unorganized, there are strong guilds or good people out there. IT will be a mix of both kinds. That being said they are correct with TTK, the more tanky people are the more difficult it will be to out play people. Its about making the right kind of balance with the ttk though.
Hard to say much about how zergs will go though and how effective you are against them, talking about it right now is head cannon. Pretty much it will be both of us half making up points to say we are right and not knowing how the game is going to really play.
And this is exactly why I'm talking about average players who play at the same lvl as me or slightly above/below, and why I couldn't care less about good or great players, because they're the minority in all games.
Well that is the difference with us, i prefer deeper combat with a skill curve so there are elements to grind besides just gear and improving player skill.
Just because most people are average by the way doesn't me they don't want that kind of skill level in the game, and feel their own sense of control and grinding to get better. And enjoy knowing the gameplay offers that to push back against certain tab elements and not be helpless in certain situation waiting for a CD.
I feel this is kind of a falacy. How would they win against a elite player in a 20 or 30 sec fight? They would get equally creamed, as they would with 10 seconds. There is only onme way to get better, thats playing. If you got less time to play, you wont get as good as people who play alot. So, I dont see how the situation would be different. 10 - 15 seconds is not a small timeframe. In action, thats a long time. Using abilities like blink or something else that keeps you out of the fight, would last even longer.
If the TTK was like 60 seconds, everyone would get away, get help or whatever. People would feel useless, and feel PvP had no meaningful impact. Dmg classes would feel weak as hell, and healing classes would be unkillable.
I'd compare this to someone sniping you from somewhere you didn't even look at vs someone headshotting you after doing a quick zig-zag towards you to dodge your own shots. In the first situation - you've learned nothing, because there was no time/ability to even learn from the experience. In the second situation you see what the opponent did and could then try applying the same methods in your own gameplay.
This would of course be false if gear power scaling is off the damn charts and a person barely above you in gear progression can wipe the floor with you - but we both don't know if that is the case and it would also be a completely different kind of discussion if that were the case.
If we're talking about pvp (as in, both players are flagged) - getting away shouldn't be easy, because CCs exist. Yes, everyone will have at least some form of CC break, but I'd hope that is not a 0CD spammable ability.
Dmg classes would only feel weak if you compare them to dmg classes from other games rather than to other classes in Ashes. That's like comparing a boxer to a dude with a gun and saying that the boxer is super weak, because he can't do dmg to another person as quickly.
If we instead compare a boxer to a kickboxer or to other martial artist (i.e. comparing something within the same type/class of said thing) - we'd have a variety of choices that are not too far away from each other, but which still differ in their speed/intensity of applying dmg.
As for healing classes being unkillable - mana. Mana gameplay should be deep and intricate. Every class will use mana, so every class should have some interaction with the enemy's mana. And healer's ttk should account for their mana pool's ability to restore their hp. The same could apply to tank's defensive ability costs, so that the tank doesn't remain impenetrable forever.
Hm yeah not sure it works this way. Longer TTK gives you more time to totally outskill someone. More opportunity to put knowledge etc to good use.
Eg ultra short TTKs (like in an FPS).. the pros can still get headshotted.
Except that non-shooter games are way more complex in their gameplay mechanics. You can't quite "spray and pray" in a non-shooter game and think you'll beat a better player that way.
This kinda goes back to the fighting games context we've seen in this thread. Two bad players can each find their "cheese" and beat each other with it, because they don't really know how to deal with either. But a good player will simply use that cheese against them. In a shooter you can just point to a thing and hold lmb, and there'd already be a chance to win.
And so, unless we get super simplistic combat in Ashes (which already seems to not be the case) - we ain't getting a "spray and pray" chances to win here.
As a DPS PvPer I want to be able to separate my aggressors and pick one off given the opportunity, before turning on his mate.
Hard balance to get right. I think I'll fall back and play the "wait and see" card
Yes balance is always the right way, But ashes will be balanced around group fights. And even if the average 1v1 ttk is 60 sec, you still can get oneshoted in group fight if you get focused. This leads to only 1 logical conclusion - Bigger 1v1 ttk in order to get more interesting group fights
If the ttk is low - there wont be any reason for focusing particular player, because you can solo kill him fast enough. There wont be classes trying to synergize their skills in order to maximize dmg. There wont be tactical retreat, because if you try to get distance from enemy half your team will die.
Also healers will be useless, since they cant react to heal target that dies for less than 1 second. (maybe shields build will be the meta.)
Actually, it would resolve in a higher TTK. An high dps like a mage or rogue, trades big dmg for less survivability. A weak dps normally has other abilities, which gives them a higher survivability. So strong dps, vs strong dps will most likely yield the fastest TTK.
Yeah I guess he means dps v dps but "weaker" in terms of gear & skill. So, still burstable. But I get your point too.
So if the attacking party is hitting your healer all together - the defensive buff gives its strongest protection, which directly decreases the ttk of the target. But this still leaves the possibility of rogue sneak attacks or ranger crits from afar.
If a plain buff is viewed as too op for this kind of effect - I'd be totally ok with a "formation"-type deal. So smth like "everyone who's behind the tank in a wide and long cone aoe has this effect on them". This would make tanks move in a certain way around their party, limit their movements in pvp (unless the party is secure in some other way) and would also add more pvp interaction for "forced movement" abilities like the tank's Grapple.
In other words, a different kind of Aegis effect.
Now you are comparing to shooter games, I think its a bad analogy. 10 secs as a minimum TTK, you will know where the dmg comes from.
If Iron Mike is considered big dmg, as I would consider him. (to use your boxing). He would feel weak, if he could keep left hooking someone, and they kept standing up and smiling at him. Thats how I tried to explain how dmg would feel like, if their abilities took ages to kill others.
Well. Both sides would have mana, CC and escapes, yea? Not just the defender. So the attacker would run out of mana too, so I dont think its a valid argument.
I think there is a reason to focus down players, even with 10-15 sec TTK. In big team fights, healers will be able to react to 10-15 sec, and heal the player. If focused, and it takes 2-3 secs. Kansas is going bye bye.
current TTK literally = just a duo of two stealth Rangers ganking, will obliterate a player before he can even know where they are, making casuals drop hours worth of loot and not even having a chance of fighting back or running away lol thats on the top spectrum of hardcore, MMORPGs with death penalties and loot drop can Not have low TTK, players need a good and big chance of fighting back or running away,
and corruption does not prevent this, nor it shouldnt, because having a 100% guaranteed free kill on a piñata of loot over some corruption that you can run away and grind off... I'll take that all day long, it shouldnt be that easy to kill a player, but well...
I guess players will soon find out
There will always be some kind of focus, Even in an unorganized group people will tend to attack the front most targets. which will result in always 3-4 players hitting same targets even if there is no shot caller. And with 4 man focusing 1 person i imagine the ttk will be around 2 sec (if average ttk for 1v1 is 10-15), And this is because in 1v1 you still can use some active block to negate some attack or other stuff like this, and if focused by 4 people you wont survive the 2 seconds. So healer will always be useless
One L2 class had 2 blinks, a front-facing one and a back-facing one. You could use both of them to move forward, but you had to spin your character and use the back-facing blink asap but also in the best way possible. Those players who could do this in a near-perfect way would not only always outpace other players of the same class, but would also fly around the battlefield way more efficiently, which let them do more dmg while escaping others' dmg.
And again, seeing better uses of the tools that the weaker players has would provide a direct example of what to do (or at least try). Having a small ttk usually just means "use your longest CC and then use your biggest dps ability/atk until the target dies". Not much strategy or variety of encounter approaches. A longer ttk, supported by a good variety of gameplay tools, would lead to a more involved and intricate gameplay.
But its good recource management on both sides, no? Everything is skill on both sides.
You may be right. But I do think that the penalty for killing player will be quick severe. Outside wars and the like. You never know what loot you get when you attack people, you can only speculate.
My main point was that having good mana gameplay would be good for the game, because it would add depth to the combat.
Dude, for real, like what? I've reread this interaction multiple times, I also had friends look it over to make sense of it for me, to no avail.
You quoted me about flipping something on it's head (it's unclear what), then proceeded to misrepresent my stance, then told me to... argue against the opinion you think I'm holding or something? And somehow this was me changing the topic? What even?
You're either trolling me, or you're attempting to reply to someone else and quoting my posts by mistake, or this is a very unclear attempt to convey something to me. If it's the last one, I urge you to take a step back, think about what you wanted to say and how you might convey it, and then we'll go from there, alright?