Battlepass in MMOs

State your opinion, I'll start with mine

They're dumb they are meant for repetitive games like shooters, they give you something to do in a games that are arena pvp weather it be a MOBA or Shooter. MMOs are supposed to keep you busy. adding chores on top of that for things I should just be able to work for tends to leave a bad taste in mouth.

Also the monetization of it is kind of dumb as well. FFXIV and WoW have raked in large amounts of money just doing cosmetics on the shop, do that without the predatory fear of missing out.

One other argument for me was when I was playing NW I wanted to support the game, I bought up dyes and emotes and spent more money on that game then I have any other game as far as cosmetics, I supported it because it was simple and clean way for them to make extra money. I stopped giving them my money after they started doing the battlepass. It even made me not care about collecting all the emotes anymore. It wasn't even to protest, I just stopped caring.

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Finov

Dygz wrote: »

How is the Season Pass a distraction from the main game when you can typically complete Season Pass tasks while playing the main game?
If they are boring, don't do the Battlepass tasks. Typically, a handful of tasks takes about 20 minutes to complete, so not enough time to get bored - especially not during a 4+ hour play session.

I'll say that. I don't mind a season pass only if it runs on its own. Without my participation in this.

patrick68794

Dygz wrote: »

Xeeg wrote: »

No.
We pay a monthly sub for a reason. If the game gets boring we stop paying sub.

Battle passes are ways for 1 time purchase games to continue getting revenue from the players in order to keep them in the game. This is not the Ashes of Creation model.

I mean... Ashes is already going to have a pay-for-cosmetics market in addition to the sub.
I dunno why Battlepass can't be the form that market takes. Especially if they also include a free path for the Battlepass in addition to the paid path for the Battlepass.

Especially if they handle them the way that Helldivers 2 does. Let us buy the "premium" version with earnable in-game currency and don't have them expire. I don't really see why anyone would be upset if they went down that path in addition to just having cosmetics purchasable directly since it's already confirmed that those cosmetics will exist.

Ludullu

patrick68794 wrote: »

Especially if they handle them the way that Helldivers 2 does. Let us buy the "premium" version with earnable in-game currency and don't have them expire. I don't really see why anyone would be upset if they went down that path in addition to just having cosmetics purchasable directly since it's already confirmed that those cosmetics will exist.

If rewards in the BP are not meant to disappear and the BP itself continues endlessly, letting everyone finish it at their own pace, and the only reward in the BP are the cosmetics - why in the hell is it a separate random menu, instead of just being quests?

Why create a direct immersion-breaking feature in the game, when you could do the same thing but immersive? Laziness? "Just cause everyone else is doing it"?

That's my main issue with BPs in mmos. Especially in purchasable mmos, as opposed to f2p shit that's full of shop windows that lead to 0 immersion.

patrick68794

NiKr wrote: »

patrick68794 wrote: »

Especially if they handle them the way that Helldivers 2 does. Let us buy the "premium" version with earnable in-game currency and don't have them expire. I don't really see why anyone would be upset if they went down that path in addition to just having cosmetics purchasable directly since it's already confirmed that those cosmetics will exist.

If rewards in the BP are not meant to disappear and the BP itself continues endlessly, letting everyone finish it at their own pace, and the only reward in the BP are the cosmetics - why in the hell is it a separate random menu, instead of just being quests?

Why create a direct immersion-breaking feature in the game, when you could do the same thing but immersive? Laziness? "Just cause everyone else is doing it"?

That's my main issue with BPs in mmos. Especially in purchasable mmos, as opposed to f2p shit that's full of shop windows that lead to 0 immersion.

Is the cosmetic shop where you spend real money going to somehow be less "immersion breaking" to you? Because that is already going to be a thing. Having a battlepass type mechanic that provides a different way to get those rewards is different how?

Finov

NiKr wrote: »

patrick68794 wrote: »

Especially if they handle them the way that Helldivers 2 does. Let us buy the "premium" version with earnable in-game currency and don't have them expire. I don't really see why anyone would be upset if they went down that path in addition to just having cosmetics purchasable directly since it's already confirmed that those cosmetics will exist.

If rewards in the BP are not meant to disappear and the BP itself continues endlessly, letting everyone finish it at their own pace, and the only reward in the BP are the cosmetics - why in the hell is it a separate random menu, instead of just being quests?

Why create a direct immersion-breaking feature in the game, when you could do the same thing but immersive? Laziness? "Just cause everyone else is doing it"?

That's my main issue with BPs in mmos. Especially in purchasable mmos, as opposed to f2p shit that's full of shop windows that lead to 0 immersion.

I agree. It's better to just add all these rewards to the world itself

Ludullu

patrick68794 wrote: »

Is the cosmetic shop where you spend real money going to somehow be less "immersion breaking" to you? Because that is already going to be a thing. Having a battlepass type mechanic that provides a different way to get those rewards is different how?

We don't know how the cosmetic shop will work. Will it be an in-game window, a login window or a launcher UI element? Maybe there's a tailor npc in every node that trades your ember tokens for clothes.

None of those would be immersion-breaking for me. But from all the games that I've seen a BP in - it's always a UI window with its own reward structure and even notifications of "ey, don't forget to do this thing today/this week, or you might miss out".

If Intrepid decide to present their BP in an immersive way? Cool. Though I'd still prefer it to be in a quest form, because all BPs are just quests w/o a UI element or a story behind them, which is the laziest damn way to design your reward structures.

The whole point of BPs is to provide regular players with rewards that are either usually bought or simply don't have any other source in the game, while cosmetics shops are just "use irl money to get a skin". To me those are completely different things.

lunarsky

Personally, I am not a fan. I think they're unnecessary in a game with a monthly sub. I certainly can understand and appreciate their purpose in a F2P or B2P game. I'd rather Intrepid just add challenges/trophies that can come in the form of quests (if need be) that give loot and keep their separate cash shop for cosmetics if they want to. I think with each node having new potential questlines and things we shouldn't get bored on servers prior to more content being added as you can always tear things down and rebuild it a new in different parts of the world where things we haven't seen before can occur.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

What exactly entices you to do those things? Is it just a random menu telling you "you'll get a reward if you do this thing"?

And if yes, then why can't normal quests, that require specific ways of interacting with them, do that?

Fortnite doesn't have Quests.
NW it's different tasks than what you would typically find in a Quest - like "5 Kills with a Ranged Weapon" or "Kill 5 Enemies in PvP".
One of my favorite Tasks in Fortnite is "Thank the Bus Driver 5 Times" - which means hop into a game and emote while you're on the bus - before you jump down to the map. Another one I did yesterday was "Drive Two Different Types of Vehicles". Another was "Drive 1K meters". So I could kill two birds with one stone.

In WoW, I focus on the Season Pass during Endgame, when Quests are not abundant.
But, again, a lot of the tasks I do there are non-combat tasks, like Climbing up cliffs or Racing Dragons.

I would say that Battlepass tasks are not completely "random".
Battlepass tasks typically take less time to complete than a Quest.
I could probably complete 5 tasks in the sam amount of time I can complete 1 Quest.
Also, I might be able to complete two Tasks while I'm also completing 1 Quest.
The Quest might be "Kill 20 Goblins" and some NPC would have a story about why they want the Goblins to be killed. The Tasks might be "Kill 10 Enemies Using a Bow" and "Kill 10 Enemies in an Arctic Biome".

Quests will typically reward items that will improve gameplay.
Tasks typically reward Cosmetics that you wil place on top of rewards you earned from Quests.
Which works great for me since one of my playstyles is Fashion Over Function.
Battlepass rewards are not going to help you win PvP. Battlepass rewards can help you project your desired RP.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

The whole point of BPs is to provide regular players with rewards that are either usually bought or simply don't have any other source in the game, while cosmetics shops are just "use irl money to get a skin". To me those are completely different things.

Can you unpack that thought for me?
I don't know what you mean by "rewards that are either usually bought or simply don't have any other source in the game" - I especially don't understand how that is not the same thing as Cosmetics.

I would probably ignore PvP Quests that offer individual rewards, but accept one PvP Task if it sends me farther along the Battlepass path towards Cosmetics I want.
For instance, I would probably ignore PvP Quests that reward money, gear and xp. I would probably be willing to spend 20 minutes completing a PvP Task if that would move me farther along the BP Path to eventually acquire a Stufferton Skin.

In an MMORPG, Battlepasses typically keep players playing during Endgame - especially players who aren't interested in running Dungeons/Raids over and over and over and over again just to get a full set of BiS gear.

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

NW it's different tasks than what you would typically find in a Quest - like "5 Kills with a Ranged Weapon" or "Kill 5 Enemies in PvP".
One of my favorite Tasks in Fortnite is "Thank the Bus Driver 5 Times" - which means hop into a game and emote while you're on the bus - before you jump down to the map. Another one I did yesterday was "Drive Two Different Types of Vehicles". Another was "Drive 1K meters". So I could kill two birds with one stone.

In WoW, I focus on the Season Pass during Endgame, when Quests are not abundant.
But, again, a lot of the tasks I do there are non-combat tasks, like Climbing up cliffs or Racing Dragons.

I would say that Battlepass tasks are not completely "random".
Battlepass tasks typically take less time to complete than a Quest.
I could probably complete 5 tasks in the sam amount of time I can complete 1 Quest.
Also, I might be able to complete two Tasks while I'm also completing 1 Quest.
The Quest might be "Kill 20 Goblins" and some NPC would have a story about why they want the Goblins to be killed. The Tasks might be "Kill 10 Enemies Using a Bow" and "Kill 10 Enemies in an Arctic Biome".

Doesn't NW have the bulletin boards? Are those tasks different from BP's? And if they are different, couldn't they be the same and simply give you both the reward from the task itself and a piece of additional currency that goes towards a pool that you can then use to get cosmetics from an npc? Because all the things you've listed sound exactly like random tasks to me.

Dygz wrote: »

Can you unpack that thought for me?
I don't know what you mean by "rewards that are either usually bought or simply don't have any other source in the game" - I especially don't understand how that is not the same thing as Cosmetics.

I'm talking about cosmetics. But as I said, BPs are usually there to give non-paying players a chance to get said cosmetics, while the cosmetic is either only available in the irl-money store or not available anywhere else in the game.

Dygz wrote: »

In an MMORPG, Battlepasses typically keep players playing during Endgame - especially players who aren't interested in running Dungeons/Raids over and over and over and over again just to get a full set of BiS gear.

Like I said, to me this just sounds like devs didn't want to spend a few extra days writing some monologue for an npc so they shoved some cosmetics behind random actions and said "go do chores, if you're bored".

patrick68794

NiKr wrote: »

patrick68794 wrote: »

Is the cosmetic shop where you spend real money going to somehow be less "immersion breaking" to you? Because that is already going to be a thing. Having a battlepass type mechanic that provides a different way to get those rewards is different how?

We don't know how the cosmetic shop will work. Will it be an in-game window, a login window or a launcher UI element? Maybe there's a tailor npc in every node that trades your ember tokens for clothes.

None of those would be immersion-breaking for me. But from all the games that I've seen a BP in - it's always a UI window with its own reward structure and even notifications of "ey, don't forget to do this thing today/this week, or you might miss out".

If Intrepid decide to present their BP in an immersive way? Cool. Though I'd still prefer it to be in a quest form, because all BPs are just quests w/o a UI element or a story behind them, which is the laziest damn way to design your reward structures.

The whole point of BPs is to provide regular players with rewards that are either usually bought or simply don't have any other source in the game, while cosmetics shops are just "use irl money to get a skin". To me those are completely different things.

Why couldn't a battle pass be setup the same ways as that cosmetic shop? WoW has an in-game vendor for their take on a battle pass.

The point is that there's more than one way to make a battle pass. Call of Duty's just use the normal experience you gain from a match to progress and provide optional challenges for bonus XP (at least that's how it used to work, I know they've revamped them more than once). Why couldn't AoC just do something similar? Have a new "tier" or a piece of the battle pass currency take a specific amount of XP to get and then there could be in-game vendors to get the rewards. It isn't a new concept and you would just naturally be progressing it by doing literally anything in-game that provides XP. In Helldivers 2 you can even find the battle pass currencies themselves while in a match in hidden supply caches.

KingDDD

Battle passes are a great way to add goals and unique avenues for gameplay to complete at a variety of stages in the games life. I'm in favor of giving all players things to do even if it's not catered to me.

As for being an additional cost, I would rather see the rewards earnable completely free in game without a reduced xp modifier. If it has to have a paid component, offer that for free to anyone who spent the minimum price for a skin.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Doesn't NW have the bulletin boards? Are those tasks different from BP's? And if they are different, couldn't they be the same and simply give you both the reward from the task itself and a piece of additional currency that goes towards a pool that you can then use to get cosmetics from an npc? Because all the things you've listed sound exactly like random tasks to me.

Bulletin Board Tasks are different than Battlepass Tasks.
If I could just get additional currency from a Bulletin Board to purchase Cosmetics from an NPC, I would always ignore PvP Tasks and possibly always ignore Tasks like "Make 10 Kills with a Bow".
Also, "Make 10 Kills with a Bow" is a strange task for a Bulletin Board. Typically Tasks on a Bulletin Board are going to care about what you Kill and, ostensibly, that will have some impact on the Town or world.
A Battlepass Task is kinda more about how you play - and are designed to entice players to try gameplay modes they might not normally try.
Battlepass Tasks overlap with Quests and Bulletinboard Tasks.

NiKr wrote: »

I'm talking about cosmetics. But as I said, BPs are usually there to give non-paying players a chance to get said cosmetics, while the cosmetic is either only available in the irl-money store or not available anywhere else in the game.

No. I think with the WoW Season Pass, you have to pay your subscription to participate in the Season Pass.
I think it's been 8 months since I last played the Season Pass in WoW, so I would need to re-check what kinds of Tasks the Season Pass offers.

WoW Season Pass does give Cosmetic Currency just for visiting the Traders Post once each month.
That means you need an active subscription, I think.
And then some Tasks are:
Imbibe Zanzill's Poison 50 points
Show Some Love (emote) To Fallen Dragons 50 points
Complete 10 Quests 50 points
Complete Quests in Outland 100 Points
Defeat 25 Raid Bosses
Kill 10 Dragonflight Raid Bosses
Complete 10 Dungeons
Earn 7500 Honor
Fulfill Public Crafting Orders

NiKr wrote: »

Like I said, to me this just sounds like devs didn't want to spend a few extra days writing some monologue for an npc so they shoved some cosmetics behind random actions and said "go do chores, if you're bored".

Yep. No need to have a monologue for an NPC.
And it is definitely an easier method to keep players playing while the work on new Quests that include NPCs and Dialogue. Not much different than trying to get gamers to repeat Dungeons/Raids over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to get a full set of BiS gear.
The Battlepass just works better for retaining players rather than gamers.

Ludullu

patrick68794 wrote: »

Why couldn't a battle pass be setup the same ways as that cosmetic shop? WoW has an in-game vendor for their take on a battle pass.

That's kinda what I'm asking for, just taken a few steps further.

Apok

The people who defend the battle pass claim its fun cause it gives you more to do, games already have journals like in ffxiv that give you dailies and weeklies. Again what's so fun about hey you need to do this now or you'll never get this one of a kind item.

You can easily do the battle pass style of random; to do quests, without time limits and seasons or any of the fomo tactics and monetization

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

That's kinda what I'm asking for, just taken a few steps further.

It's the same thing - yes.

Dygz

Apok wrote: »

Again what's so fun about hey you need to do this now or you'll never get this one of a kind item.

Modern Battlepasses are not as fomo as "You'll never get this one of a kind item."
But, part of the fun is getting Seasonal themed Cosmetics by doing Seasonal themed activities.

The outdated Dailies and Weeklies from several years ago have typically been much more fomo - where progress is reset to the beginning if you skip days or weeks.

Depraved

arsnn wrote: »

Fantmx wrote: »

Battlepasses make sense. As a 24/7 persistent world they offer mmorpgs potentially fun and engaging ways to stay involved, get rewards for your hard work, and progress. I don't see the downside.

The downside is how they involve/engage players with the game.
Battlepasses are the laziest way to increase engagement metrics for some "suits" jerk off to, while also making money.
If your game is not inherently fun, the management´s reaction should not be "lets trap our consumers with skinner box and fomo tactics."

what if the game is fun and engaging, but also uses a battlepass?

patrick68794

Apok wrote: »

The people who defend the battle pass claim its fun cause it gives you more to do, games already have journals like in ffxiv that give you dailies and weeklies. Again what's so fun about hey you need to do this now or you'll never get this one of a kind item.

You can easily do the battle pass style of random; to do quests, without time limits and seasons or any of the fomo tactics and monetization

Battle passes don't have to work that way. BPs in Helldivers 2, Halo Infinite, and Halo MCC for example don't have any fomo because you can just switch to any of the previous passes or unlock content from them whenever you want.

Nerror

We have a subscription model. All content and events should fall under that.

If the game is bad enough that they need to go F2P in the future at some point, well, that's obviously bad, but that is also when they can consider a battlepass IMO.

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