I agree, but I think that is mostly because toggleable pvp is usually off vs on. A green vs purple toggle may work better?
It changes the entire atmosphere of the gameplay though. Also, purple and green death penalties are different, so your suggestion of adding buffs to flagged people would make them even more OP.
And changing said death penalties would go back to what I said in the reply. Intrepid would need to rebalance all of their plans for the economy.
The game, as currently presented, doesn't quite work with a toggleable pvp flag.
Removing health bars for what? The only reason you gave was that you could be fed to mobs, this isn't BDO and im sure Steven has said before that the game will be able to detect whether you died a PvE death or PvP death based on when a player attacked you or how much damage they did relative to the mob that was hitting you.
It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.
What is wrong with the flagging system?
The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me.
It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back.
You aren't supposed to be going around Verra wanting some open world PvP.
Open world PvP is supposed to only happen when there is something specific to fight over. This may be a boss encounter, it may be resources on the map, or it may be something in that players inventory - but there should always be something.
Once you realize this, you will realize that it is very well designed. Even your comment about players being killed by mobs is a non-issue. If players are fighting mobs, you have no reason to attack them at all unless the mob they are attacking is the object of conflict - but even then you are probably better served attacking the mob anyway.
The corruption system has some minor tweaks needed to it, but the core system is not flawed - what is flawed is the belief that some players hold as to how that system is supposed to be used.
It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.
What is wrong with the flagging system?
The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me.
It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back. Also, if they get killed by mobs, it will not give corruption. So my current strategy would to go around and reduce green players health by as much as possible before they flag. If they attack back, then kill them. If they don't, try to have a mob kill them and basically just be annoying. Either way the corruption system has little to do with it.
Greens are supposed to be encouraged to fight back because they lose less stuff if they do. But in order to do that they need to target and attack the purple attacking them, while also dealing with whatever they were doing before. They will definitely be starting on the back foot.
Meanwhile there is an entire system (Bounty Hunters) that rely on people becoming corrupted. But the corruption system is there to prevent griefing. As I understand it, they want some griefing but not to much.
The simplest fix I see is just to allow people to flag to combatant as they want. Maybe even give them a buff(gathering, dps, etc) to encourage it. And then give people corruption just for attacking greens. This will stop most gaming of the corruption system, still allow murder hobos to kill greens for dopamine, increase the number of targets for Bounty Hunters. Plus I wont have to tag every stranger to see if they want to throw down.
its not a simple fix. its a bad idea (the optional flagging).
also, you are incorrect when you say if you log in and want to pvp you have to find a green who wants to attack back (they could also kill the mob they are fighting and then attack you btw). you can pvp during pvp events.
if you want to pvp outside of PVP events, you still have node and guild wars. you can fight people who are in war with you with no penalty. just join a guild and declare war on everybody. also, lots of greens will fight back in heavily contested areas anyways. people will fight back trying to protect their leveling spot. if you kill them, they will come back and try to kill you.
If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.
That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games
This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games.
I'm not pushing or pulling in any direction, just presenting another aspect of the issue. Is it fairer if no one knows anyone's exact health? If you know your own, it's easier to factor in that variable in your decision making, whether your the attacker or the defender: you know what state your character's health is.
It depends on how the game presents healing and how the buffs and healing spells work, nowadays they only work well with health bars
At least the others should have their health bars hidden and the character should give visual clues of its health
vomiting blood: health 1/4 or less
choking/hands shaking: poisoned
nose bleeding: hurt
nose and mouth bleeding: 3/4 health
ears bleeding: 1/2 health
panting: 1/2 health/low stamina if there's stamina
arching back: 1/4 health or less
etc etc, so many possibilties
People thought of doom style health bar:
Original:
given today's advanced animation capabilities and streamlined development processes, why are health bars still necessary? It seems absurd!
visual and auditory cues like body language and blood could enhance the game's appeal and drama tremendously, making it more appealing
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
Imagine a video game character is stabbed in the guts, and has very large open wounds and bleeding heavily , but its animation is the same heroic standing pose looking like a medieval Captain America
Give me a break, how much longer will we tolerate this?
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
how many games will be launched following the same game design from the 90s?
That design goes well back before the 90's, and well back before computer games.
The point of it is that it just isn't fun to play a weakened character - and if the game has you being weakened when you take damage, the game just won't be fun.
Games like Ashes are not trying to simulate real life, they are trying to provide entertainment. It is entertainment factors that determin how things like this are decided.
This is such an obvious bad design from an entertainment perspective that even early Braunstein games realized it was kind of needed.
It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.
What is wrong with the flagging system?
The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me.
It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back.
You aren't supposed to be going around Verra wanting some open world PvP.
Open world PvP is supposed to only happen when there is something specific to fight over. This may be a boss encounter, it may be resources on the map, or it may be something in that players inventory - but there should always be something.
Once you realize this, you will realize that it is very well designed. Even your comment about players being killed by mobs is a non-issue. If players are fighting mobs, you have no reason to attack them at all unless the mob they are attacking is the object of conflict - but even then you are probably better served attacking the mob anyway.
The corruption system has some minor tweaks needed to it, but the core system is not flawed - what is flawed is the belief that some players hold as to how that system is supposed to be used.
Gatherers drop materials, people moving stuff from one point to another drop materials. If i spend 5 minutes killing someone and get 10 minutes worth of material farming, it might be worth doing. Especially if I can do it when they are fighting a mob and my odds of winning go up and rewards go up. I wont know what the player has until I kill them though.
I am not saying I will definitely do this, but I know people who will. Heck, go over to the guild recruitment page and you will see several guilds who even seem to encourage it.
I would like the system that is designed to discourage it to do a good job discouraging it though.
If i can play a ranged/ambusher, couldn't I hunt noncombatants at will by attacking during PvE fights and timing my damage so the mobs kill them instead? This would greatly reduce my risk for ganking gatherers. Or I if I am not worried about gaining corruption can I kill them at low life, so they dont even have a chance to flag. This will theoretically double the drop rate of materials (Combatants have 50% reduced death penalties).
No, it doesn't reduce anything if you dont know their healthbars and everybody who disagree is wrong
If you want to kill then just kill.
However, I am not against a potion that let's you see health bars for a few minutes, still seeing health bars is childish and shouldn't exist in MMOs. In MMOs the characters should be panting, grunting, moaning, arching their backs, spilling blood and vomiting blood if they are dying.
That's how game should be, health bars shouldnt exist and healtg bar people should quit games
This will feel an extremely silly thing to ask but... what about our own health bar then? There are some game genres that keep that information from the player, or at least obfuscate a precise value. Atypical for RPGs, as it would be in the way of the stats-porn, but frequent in FPS and survival games.
I'm not pushing or pulling in any direction, just presenting another aspect of the issue. Is it fairer if no one knows anyone's exact health? If you know your own, it's easier to factor in that variable in your decision making, whether your the attacker or the defender: you know what state your character's health is.
It depends on how the game presents healing and how the buffs and healing spells work, nowadays they only work well with health bars
At least the others should have their health bars hidden and the character should give visual clues of its health
vomiting blood: health 1/4 or less
choking/hands shaking: poisoned
nose bleeding: hurt
nose and mouth bleeding: 3/4 health
ears bleeding: 1/2 health
panting: 1/2 health/low stamina if there's stamina
arching back: 1/4 health or less
etc etc, so many possibilties
People thought of doom style health bar:
Original:
given today's advanced animation capabilities and streamlined development processes, why are health bars still necessary? It seems absurd!
visual and auditory cues like body language and blood could enhance the game's appeal and drama tremendously, making it more appealing
it doesn't have anything to do with technological advancements. health bars are used because people like them and that's what they are used to. people don't like change that much. it has to be gradual, not abrupt. also, people prefer images over letters and numbers.
i still want to see health bars when I'm healing my party. that pic from doom still uses numbers, doesnt it?
It's the flagging system that's the issue. Hopefully enough degenerates are playing in A2 that it gets fixed.
What is wrong with the flagging system?
The flagging system as it currently is feels contradictory to me.
It is supposed to protect greens(non-combatants) from unnecessary ganking, but the only way to flag is to attack someone. If i log in and decide I want to do some open world PVP, I need to wander around tapping greens until one of them fights back.
You aren't supposed to be going around Verra wanting some open world PvP.
Open world PvP is supposed to only happen when there is something specific to fight over. This may be a boss encounter, it may be resources on the map, or it may be something in that players inventory - but there should always be something.
Once you realize this, you will realize that it is very well designed. Even your comment about players being killed by mobs is a non-issue. If players are fighting mobs, you have no reason to attack them at all unless the mob they are attacking is the object of conflict - but even then you are probably better served attacking the mob anyway.
The corruption system has some minor tweaks needed to it, but the core system is not flawed - what is flawed is the belief that some players hold as to how that system is supposed to be used.
Gatherers drop materials, people moving stuff from one point to another drop materials. If i spend 5 minutes killing someone and get 10 minutes worth of material farming, it might be worth doing. Especially if I can do it when they are fighting a mob and my odds of winning go up and rewards go up. I wont know what the player has until I kill them though.
I am not saying I will definitely do this, but I know people who will. Heck, go over to the guild recruitment page and you will see several guilds who even seem to encourage it.
I would like the system that is designed to discourage it to do a good job discouraging it though.
corruption might not be worth the mats you are getting. also, you dont get all the materials, you only get a portion. if they spend 5 minutes gathering, you will only get 1-2 minute of materials. you are also not considering that they might kill you instead or that they simply wont be carrying any mats and you went red or made an enemy for nothing.
attacking someone is a risk that may or may not be rewarding. there isn't any need for more discouragement. why is the guy mining rocks more special and needs to be protected at all cost over the guy who wants to pvp in an open world PVP game. makes no sense.
Gatherers drop materials, people moving stuff from one point to another drop materials. If i spend 5 minutes killing someone and get 10 minutes worth of material farming, it might be worth doing. Especially if I can do it when they are fighting a mob and my odds of winning go up and rewards go up. I wont know what the player has until I kill them though.
I think you are missing the point.
You aren't supposed to just go around killing people to see what they have on them. If you kill someone that spent the last 30 minutes harvesting ore, there is a damn good chance that you wouldn't even be able to carry that ore anywhere anyway. Look up inventory on the wiki for more information.
If you are killing someone for what they have on them, you need two things to be true.
First, you need to have a reason for thinking they have something, and second, you need to be wanting that specific thing.
Using the above ore example, if you are heading to a known ore patch, and you see a gatherer leaving that area, you have a fairly good reason to assume they may have some ore on them. You want ore, and are able to carry it - so you could kill that player to take some of that ore.
Sure, there are guilds right now that seem to be all about open world PvP and think that it will work how they want it to work.
corruption might not be worth the mats you are getting. also, you dont get all the materials, you only get a portion. if they spend 5 minutes gathering, you will only get 1-2 minute of materials. you are also not considering that they might kill you instead or that they simply wont be carrying any mats and you went red or made an enemy for nothing.
attacking someone is a risk that may or may not be rewarding. there isn't any need for more discouragement. why is the guy mining rocks more special and needs to be protected at all cost over the guy who wants to pvp in an open world PVP game. makes no sense.
I agree that is how it should work. My concern is that health bars would let me game the system and kill people without having to deal with the system's consequences or giving them the opportunity to fight back. Social consequences will help some people but not others. I want to see the system fixed, not exploit it.
Gatherers drop materials, people moving stuff from one point to another drop materials. If i spend 5 minutes killing someone and get 10 minutes worth of material farming, it might be worth doing. Especially if I can do it when they are fighting a mob and my odds of winning go up and rewards go up. I wont know what the player has until I kill them though.
I think you are missing the point.
You aren't supposed to just go around killing people to see what they have on them. If you kill someone that spent the last 30 minutes harvesting ore, there is a damn good chance that you wouldn't even be able to carry that ore anywhere anyway. Look up inventory on the wiki for more information.
If you are killing someone for what they have on them, you need two things to be true.
First, you need to have a reason for thinking they have something, and second, you need to be wanting that specific thing.
Why? I may not be able to hold all of the items, but my bags will most likely be empty before I start and there are bags that can hold any type of material. If they fight back, there are 0 system consequences to attacking them. With a < 30 sec TTK, it doesn't take much time to kill someone I run across. If there are health bars I can stop attacking before they die if they don't attack back. The current system rewards attacking first heavily.
If the consequence is being reverse PK'd - As long as my win rate + average loot is greater than the time it takes to recover what I lost + time I could of spent gathering, it makes sense. (Ignoring the fun factor of doing it.)
If the consequence is social - that is why I mentioned guilds supporting this behavior earlier. There will be a social place for people like this. Large guild members will be attacked less, those in weaker guilds or guildless are just prey at this point.
I think the corruption system will protect very low levels from very high levels... mostly. If they add health bars I think that is the only thing it will do.
Why? I may not be able to hold all of the items, but my bags will most likely be empty before I start and there are bags that can hold any type of material. If they fight back, there are 0 system consequences to attacking them. With a < 30 sec TTK, it doesn't take much time to kill someone I run across. If there are health bars I can stop attacking before they die if they don't attack back. The current system rewards attacking first heavily.
If your plan is to stop attacking players if they don't fight back, it won't take long before those players realize the best way to defend their resources is to not fight back.
If you plan on attacking people often to get materials, you will have to gain corruption. If you don't, you become the joke of a player that no one is concerned about. Like a bug that the best defense is to just ignore it.
So, that plan you have - it isn't going to work. At least not how you think it will.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Imagine a video game character is stabbed in the guts, and has very large open wounds and bleeding heavily , but its animation is the same heroic standing pose looking like a medieval Captain America
Give me a break, how much longer will we tolerate this?
We will tolerate it until graphics and other tech are capable of providing all the sensory imput in an online RPG that allow players to adequately guage the Health of combat targets without Health bars.
RPGs are not Shooters.
Why? I may not be able to hold all of the items, but my bags will most likely be empty before I start and there are bags that can hold any type of material. If they fight back, there are 0 system consequences to attacking them. With a < 30 sec TTK, it doesn't take much time to kill someone I run across. If there are health bars I can stop attacking before they die if they don't attack back. The current system rewards attacking first heavily.
If your plan is to stop attacking players if they don't fight back, it won't take long before those players realize the best way to defend their resources is to not fight back.
If you plan on attacking people often to get materials, you will have to gain corruption. If you don't, you become the joke of a player that no one is concerned about. Like a bug that the best defense is to just ignore it.
So, that plan you have - it isn't going to work. At least not how you think it will.
I hope so. And if no one else is going corrupted I think you are right. We'll need to see exactly how the WPvP ends up working out, but as it is now I am not so sure.
Side note: I wonder if I pvp in a group, could we stack all the corruption on one player by not partying. They'll be the one doing the killing blow. Risk accidently killing someone the more people attacking of course, but a skilled group of 3-4 could probably do it.
Another side note: I don't plan on griefing players. It's more of a mental exercise on if I could abuse the current system to do so.
Why? I may not be able to hold all of the items, but my bags will most likely be empty before I start and there are bags that can hold any type of material. If they fight back, there are 0 system consequences to attacking them. With a < 30 sec TTK, it doesn't take much time to kill someone I run across. If there are health bars I can stop attacking before they die if they don't attack back. The current system rewards attacking first heavily.
If your plan is to stop attacking players if they don't fight back, it won't take long before those players realize the best way to defend their resources is to not fight back.
If you plan on attacking people often to get materials, you will have to gain corruption. If you don't, you become the joke of a player that no one is concerned about. Like a bug that the best defense is to just ignore it.
So, that plan you have - it isn't going to work. At least not how you think it will.
I hope so. And if no one else is going corrupted I think you are right. We'll need to see exactly how the WPvP ends up working out, but as it is now I am not so sure.
Side note: I wonder if I pvp in a group, could we stack all the corruption on one player by not partying. They'll be the one doing the killing blow. Risk accidently killing someone the more people attacking of course, but a skilled group of 3-4 could probably do it.
Another side note: I don't plan on griefing players. It's more of a mental exercise on if I could abuse the current system to do so.
To your first side note, you could do that.
However, if you attacked me with a group of players and only one of you had corruption,I would fight back against only that one.
Since they probably have a lot of corruption due to a high PK count (increasing the corruption gained per kill), they are weaker in PvP and I will probably be able to kill them, and since they are corrupt I am still flagged as a non-combatant.
You then have a situation where your corruption gaining character is in some random respawn location, you are all combatants not wanting corruption, and I am a nearly but not quite dead non-combatant.
While there are indeed ways to abuse the system as it is, all of them still see players suffer a penalty.
Yeah, the high corruption would definitely reduce their stats. If the others could reduce the targets HP to <20%, I wonder how high corruption would have to be before the fight becomes fairish.
The health bars won't be visible, iirc. They were just made visible 'for now' and will be disabled later, is what I got from the stream.
No, the plan is for them to be visible.
Exact health percentages won't be visible, but the health bars don't show exact percentages.
0
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 21
I've always wondered why first-person shooters (FPS) manage quite well without health bars hovering over their enemies, yet MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) tend to feature them prominently.
In FPS games, the absence of health bars can be attributed to the fast-paced, immersive gameplay that relies on visual and audio cues to indicate an enemy's health status. Players often gauge an enemy's condition through animations, sounds, and visible damage, creating a more realistic and engaging experience.
The UI often / can be less visually cluttering too.
On the other hand, I get why possibly MMORPGs frequently include health bars.. These games often involve complex combat systems where players feel the need to manage multiple targets and coordinate with others and want other support tools. Health bars provide clear, immediate feedback on an enemy's status, enabling players to make strategic decisions quickly.
But this is where I believe that MMORPGs may lack the detailed visual and audio cues that FPS games use, necessitating health bars to compensate for this deficiency.
I've always believed that these health bars were created to make up for the lack of clear visual indications on the foes and even perhaps lazy design in today*s advancement.
I hope that one day, advancements in character design and technology will allow MMORPGs to dispense with health bars altogether, relying instead on more nuanced and immersive indicators to convey enemy status.
This would not only enhance the gaming experience but also bring a level of realism and immersion similar to what FPS games already achieve.
For immerssion, I have always wanted far less bells and whistles (UI) and way more screen visuals and sounds , attention to players, creatures and environment!
Backed this horse with that hope, but alas perhaps that horse is still to come!
I've always wondered why first-person shooters (FPS) manage quite well without health bars hovering over their enemies, yet MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) tend to feature them prominently.
My opinion here is that the difference between the genres, the reason it is near ubiquitous in one and essentially not present in the other, is because in FPS games you are almost never in a situation where you would make a different decision based on knowing a rivals health, while in an MMORPG this will happen often.
While I am not the biggest fan of FPS games, I have never played one where I would think of changing weapons if I knew my target was at half health as opposed to assuming they were at full health.
I can't think of any class I have played in an MMO where that same decision wouldn't change knowing this information.
This is very much just an opinion though. I am fully aware that my FPS experience isn't robust enough to put any weight behind this opinion.
My opinion here is that the difference between the genres, the reason it is near ubiquitous in one and essentially not present in the other, is because in FPS games you are almost never in a situation where you would make a different decision based on knowing a rivals health, while in an MMORPG this will happen often.
As a low skill player, I'd spray the lower-hp enemy in CS, if there were 3 dudes in front of me. That's a direct impact on my decision making. Same would (and did) apply to Halo Infinite, when I played it, with its shields and me knowing that my friend had just brought down an enemy's shield, so I had a higher chance of finishing off that target.
But neither of those situations required visible hp, because if a group of people is working well together, they can just relay the info of "I just damaged X target, so if you are able to hit it - you might be able to finish it off". This is the same way it worked in L2. Parties playing together as one unit, rather than a bunch of solo players simply reacting to lines of hp values and sniping anyone who got a little bit lower than others.
It's a difference of gameplay, same as a pack of lions behave differently to a pack of vultures.
Yeah. Theres stuff like switching from sniper to pistol and aiming for the body vs the head in FPS games. But you are going to get that info from teammates, you definitely would not wait to see your enemy then try to switch tactics.
There's also no/minimal healing and low TTKs.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I've always wondered why first-person shooters (FPS) manage quite well without health bars hovering over their enemies, yet MMORPGs (Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games) tend to feature them prominently.
In FPS games, the absence of health bars can be attributed to the fast-paced, immersive gameplay that relies on visual and audio cues to indicate an enemy's health status.
Because the whole point of shooters is to shoot and kill stuff as fast as possible.
RPGs should have a variety of other options besides just killing everything in sight.
EQNext's Storybricks and Ghostcrawler's Ghost highlight the variety of options that should be available in any RPG - given adequate underlying tech: "Could tanks actually push a boss into a more docile, or more aggressive, state of interaction with the party overall? What if enemies had hidden traits that, depending on what players do, change their behavior? Can bosses be afraid of fire? Would they get more aggressive if they hate your armor?" https://fantasticpixelcastle.com/new-detail/?id=451
Comments
I agree, but I think that is mostly because toggleable pvp is usually off vs on. A green vs purple toggle may work better?
And changing said death penalties would go back to what I said in the reply. Intrepid would need to rebalance all of their plans for the economy.
The game, as currently presented, doesn't quite work with a toggleable pvp flag.
Green players killed by mobs (the mob deals the killing blow) do not flag attacking players as corrupt...[93]
So no, it's all about the killing blow and not the dmg dealt from a source.
Open world PvP is supposed to only happen when there is something specific to fight over. This may be a boss encounter, it may be resources on the map, or it may be something in that players inventory - but there should always be something.
Once you realize this, you will realize that it is very well designed. Even your comment about players being killed by mobs is a non-issue. If players are fighting mobs, you have no reason to attack them at all unless the mob they are attacking is the object of conflict - but even then you are probably better served attacking the mob anyway.
The corruption system has some minor tweaks needed to it, but the core system is not flawed - what is flawed is the belief that some players hold as to how that system is supposed to be used.
its not a simple fix. its a bad idea (the optional flagging).
also, you are incorrect when you say if you log in and want to pvp you have to find a green who wants to attack back (they could also kill the mob they are fighting and then attack you btw). you can pvp during pvp events.
if you want to pvp outside of PVP events, you still have node and guild wars. you can fight people who are in war with you with no penalty. just join a guild and declare war on everybody. also, lots of greens will fight back in heavily contested areas anyways. people will fight back trying to protect their leveling spot. if you kill them, they will come back and try to kill you.
It depends on how the game presents healing and how the buffs and healing spells work, nowadays they only work well with health bars
At least the others should have their health bars hidden and the character should give visual clues of its health
- vomiting blood: health 1/4 or less
- choking/hands shaking: poisoned
- nose bleeding: hurt
- nose and mouth bleeding: 3/4 health
- ears bleeding: 1/2 health
- panting: 1/2 health/low stamina if there's stamina
- arching back: 1/4 health or less
etc etc, so many possibiltiesPeople thought of doom style health bar:
Original:
given today's advanced animation capabilities and streamlined development processes, why are health bars still necessary? It seems absurd!
visual and auditory cues like body language and blood could enhance the game's appeal and drama tremendously, making it more appealing
Give me a break, how much longer will we tolerate this?
That design goes well back before the 90's, and well back before computer games.
The point of it is that it just isn't fun to play a weakened character - and if the game has you being weakened when you take damage, the game just won't be fun.
Games like Ashes are not trying to simulate real life, they are trying to provide entertainment. It is entertainment factors that determin how things like this are decided.
This is such an obvious bad design from an entertainment perspective that even early Braunstein games realized it was kind of needed.
Gatherers drop materials, people moving stuff from one point to another drop materials. If i spend 5 minutes killing someone and get 10 minutes worth of material farming, it might be worth doing. Especially if I can do it when they are fighting a mob and my odds of winning go up and rewards go up. I wont know what the player has until I kill them though.
I am not saying I will definitely do this, but I know people who will. Heck, go over to the guild recruitment page and you will see several guilds who even seem to encourage it.
I would like the system that is designed to discourage it to do a good job discouraging it though.
it doesn't have anything to do with technological advancements. health bars are used because people like them and that's what they are used to. people don't like change that much. it has to be gradual, not abrupt. also, people prefer images over letters and numbers.
i still want to see health bars when I'm healing my party. that pic from doom still uses numbers, doesnt it?
corruption might not be worth the mats you are getting. also, you dont get all the materials, you only get a portion. if they spend 5 minutes gathering, you will only get 1-2 minute of materials. you are also not considering that they might kill you instead or that they simply wont be carrying any mats and you went red or made an enemy for nothing.
attacking someone is a risk that may or may not be rewarding. there isn't any need for more discouragement. why is the guy mining rocks more special and needs to be protected at all cost over the guy who wants to pvp in an open world PVP game. makes no sense.
I think you are missing the point.
You aren't supposed to just go around killing people to see what they have on them. If you kill someone that spent the last 30 minutes harvesting ore, there is a damn good chance that you wouldn't even be able to carry that ore anywhere anyway. Look up inventory on the wiki for more information.
If you are killing someone for what they have on them, you need two things to be true.
First, you need to have a reason for thinking they have something, and second, you need to be wanting that specific thing.
Using the above ore example, if you are heading to a known ore patch, and you see a gatherer leaving that area, you have a fairly good reason to assume they may have some ore on them. You want ore, and are able to carry it - so you could kill that player to take some of that ore.
Sure, there are guilds right now that seem to be all about open world PvP and think that it will work how they want it to work.
That doesn't mean they are right.
I agree that is how it should work. My concern is that health bars would let me game the system and kill people without having to deal with the system's consequences or giving them the opportunity to fight back. Social consequences will help some people but not others. I want to see the system fixed, not exploit it.
Why? I may not be able to hold all of the items, but my bags will most likely be empty before I start and there are bags that can hold any type of material. If they fight back, there are 0 system consequences to attacking them. With a < 30 sec TTK, it doesn't take much time to kill someone I run across. If there are health bars I can stop attacking before they die if they don't attack back. The current system rewards attacking first heavily.
If the consequence is being reverse PK'd - As long as my win rate + average loot is greater than the time it takes to recover what I lost + time I could of spent gathering, it makes sense. (Ignoring the fun factor of doing it.)
If the consequence is social - that is why I mentioned guilds supporting this behavior earlier. There will be a social place for people like this. Large guild members will be attacked less, those in weaker guilds or guildless are just prey at this point.
I think the corruption system will protect very low levels from very high levels... mostly. If they add health bars I think that is the only thing it will do.
If your plan is to stop attacking players if they don't fight back, it won't take long before those players realize the best way to defend their resources is to not fight back.
If you plan on attacking people often to get materials, you will have to gain corruption. If you don't, you become the joke of a player that no one is concerned about. Like a bug that the best defense is to just ignore it.
So, that plan you have - it isn't going to work. At least not how you think it will.
RPGs are not Shooters.
I hope so. And if no one else is going corrupted I think you are right. We'll need to see exactly how the WPvP ends up working out, but as it is now I am not so sure.
Side note: I wonder if I pvp in a group, could we stack all the corruption on one player by not partying. They'll be the one doing the killing blow. Risk accidently killing someone the more people attacking of course, but a skilled group of 3-4 could probably do it.
Another side note: I don't plan on griefing players. It's more of a mental exercise on if I could abuse the current system to do so.
To your first side note, you could do that.
However, if you attacked me with a group of players and only one of you had corruption,I would fight back against only that one.
Since they probably have a lot of corruption due to a high PK count (increasing the corruption gained per kill), they are weaker in PvP and I will probably be able to kill them, and since they are corrupt I am still flagged as a non-combatant.
You then have a situation where your corruption gaining character is in some random respawn location, you are all combatants not wanting corruption, and I am a nearly but not quite dead non-combatant.
While there are indeed ways to abuse the system as it is, all of them still see players suffer a penalty.
No, the plan is for them to be visible.
Exact health percentages won't be visible, but the health bars don't show exact percentages.
In FPS games, the absence of health bars can be attributed to the fast-paced, immersive gameplay that relies on visual and audio cues to indicate an enemy's health status. Players often gauge an enemy's condition through animations, sounds, and visible damage, creating a more realistic and engaging experience.
The UI often / can be less visually cluttering too.
On the other hand, I get why possibly MMORPGs frequently include health bars.. These games often involve complex combat systems where players feel the need to manage multiple targets and coordinate with others and want other support tools. Health bars provide clear, immediate feedback on an enemy's status, enabling players to make strategic decisions quickly.
But this is where I believe that MMORPGs may lack the detailed visual and audio cues that FPS games use, necessitating health bars to compensate for this deficiency.
I've always believed that these health bars were created to make up for the lack of clear visual indications on the foes and even perhaps lazy design in today*s advancement.
I hope that one day, advancements in character design and technology will allow MMORPGs to dispense with health bars altogether, relying instead on more nuanced and immersive indicators to convey enemy status.
This would not only enhance the gaming experience but also bring a level of realism and immersion similar to what FPS games already achieve.
For immerssion, I have always wanted far less bells and whistles (UI) and way more screen visuals and sounds , attention to players, creatures and environment!
Backed this horse with that hope, but alas perhaps that horse is still to come!
My opinion here is that the difference between the genres, the reason it is near ubiquitous in one and essentially not present in the other, is because in FPS games you are almost never in a situation where you would make a different decision based on knowing a rivals health, while in an MMORPG this will happen often.
While I am not the biggest fan of FPS games, I have never played one where I would think of changing weapons if I knew my target was at half health as opposed to assuming they were at full health.
I can't think of any class I have played in an MMO where that same decision wouldn't change knowing this information.
This is very much just an opinion though. I am fully aware that my FPS experience isn't robust enough to put any weight behind this opinion.
But neither of those situations required visible hp, because if a group of people is working well together, they can just relay the info of "I just damaged X target, so if you are able to hit it - you might be able to finish it off". This is the same way it worked in L2. Parties playing together as one unit, rather than a bunch of solo players simply reacting to lines of hp values and sniping anyone who got a little bit lower than others.
It's a difference of gameplay, same as a pack of lions behave differently to a pack of vultures.
There's also no/minimal healing and low TTKs.
RPGs should have a variety of other options besides just killing everything in sight.
EQNext's Storybricks and Ghostcrawler's Ghost highlight the variety of options that should be available in any RPG - given adequate underlying tech:
"Could tanks actually push a boss into a more docile, or more aggressive, state of interaction with the party overall? What if enemies had hidden traits that, depending on what players do, change their behavior? Can bosses be afraid of fire? Would they get more aggressive if they hate your armor?"
https://fantasticpixelcastle.com/new-detail/?id=451