Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
we want owr idea to reach intrepid. you just here to sound qualified and edgy.
He mentioned 20% of dungeons might be for them but somehow I understood these are also bound to story and will happen mostly during leveling.
He often says "and I've always said our game's not going to be for everybody and that's okay"
Now that start of Alpha 2 is getting close, many so called "content creators" will try to highlight how AoC doesn't comply with common expectations.
This "not going to be for everybody" sentence will be repeated more often.
That's just because I do a lot of crafting, exploring, and stuff like fishing. I certainly hope it's not required by these pillars to be grouped up when fishing. And it seems that some opinions on the forums here have a very definitive definition of solo i.e. not in a guild, not doing any raids, not in discord, etc etc.
What I see Ashes offering is social interactions being created. First through node citizenship. I would say the definition of solo player does not fit with someone who is a citizen of a node. Actively participating in tasks and work to build xp for that node. That's a social interaction that is not something that you are grouped with someone. But it could lead to a few ad hoc pugs of players doing the same tasks going out together.
Problem with me is I tend to get distracted, and veer off path to go check out something interesting. Having group mates begin yelling at me to get back to the task. For gods sake I hope that do a happen here if I go take some time to explore something.
Also there will be the guilds which also offer paths to social interaction. I really liked games where a guild has some organized events, whether it be a raid, farming, or PvP whatever. I would point to experiences in New Wold how this worked well.
As a solo player out on a daily gathering run. I could see that an opposing faction was attempting to obtain control of a stronghold. So I went to check it out. Found a few other strays in my faction around there. And we formed a group. Someone in that group called in some friends from their guild. And an hour of PvP over this stronghold ensued.
Now I wasn't a member of this guild, but I was invited to join the discord. A sizable portion of the players went to another stronghold in another territory. But a few of us stayed back as scouts and defenders. I was still in a small group, and we all kind of went back to doing our own thing around the stronghold. Mining, skinning, killing some overland mob, a boss... And whamo! The opponents had returned and started fighting again.
It's not an either or proposition. You are not ever entirely solo and you are not ever entirely grouped for content. Although you may stay in a small group out of necessity of protection in some cases. For me this turns out to be about 25% of my time actively adventuring with a group.
What I do wish for is a better system of node bulletins that brings social interaction and drama back into the game. The number 1 solo activity that I seen hurting games is having to go take gaming issue to a public forum. when youre posting on the forums you are 100% out of the game and solo. Perhaps there's a need for a system where. Nodes have bulletins so people can complain about pk's in their node. Not on some public forum out on the net
You could pay extra to have your message sent via "courier" to a larger node. A sort of pony express of information dissemination throughout the game. Along with a heavily moderated forum that shuts down topics that should be in game news, not a forum rant about player x or poi y.
Bring these social interactions back into the game please.
The other side of that is stable connections, as you pointed out here If a player doesn't have a stable connection with other players - he's a solo player. Being in a guild means that you are either required or highly encouraged to play with the same group of people most of your time.
Raiding usually requires a guild (at least if you wanna raid successfully, especially in a game like Ashes).
And discord is just a meta-guild at this point. A collection of people that play together.
All of those things link you to a static group of people that will do most (if not all) of the group content with you, rather than with someone else.
Now, as you also pointed out, Ashes has nodes. And Steven hopes that nodes will be a form of "guild" for unguilded players, because it would create a situation similar to that of a guild. But node citizenship does not exclude guild membership, so a ton of players will be doing their own guild-based thing, even if that thing benefits the node.
But imo, "giving the node xp" is definitely not a "social interaction", unless it's a direct social interaction with other citizens. If you're doing a random soloable quest in your node - that's not a social interaction. If you're gathering random stuff by yourself (which gives node xp) - it's not social. And so on and so on. Node citizenship does not lead to direct social interaction with other people. It definitely encourages it and makes it easier, but there's no feeling of "if I do this sociable thing, I gotta do it with this group of people", as there is when you're playing in a guild or with a friend group.
Also, until it's proven otherwise after release, it's hard to say whether people won't attack other citizens of their own node. There's an interesting quote for this.
A player may not flag on members of the same party, raid, guild or alliance.[34]
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging
That list does not include nodemates. To me this implies that Steven is ok with citizens of the same node fighting each other for whatever reason. And I'm 90% sure that people will in fact fight their nodemates over content, loot, petty reasons, etc.
And this would then imply that the social connection between node citizens is even weaker than the connection between alliance members, even though you live in the same node while alliance members might be spread across the entire realm.
So to come back to my main point. If you don't have stable connections with the same group of people - you're a solo player.
And I pointed out a large flaw in the idea. So it should either be rethought out, or not implemented
Because I had no idea that WoW is for casuals.
And I was trying to remind that the game is not going to be for everybody.
AoC has 5 design pillars, and two of them are against the solo dungeons:
- Player interaction
- Risk vs reward
Solo dungeons are worse than the PvE dungeons which at least have player interaction.
Also the economy is based on resource scarcity. Solo dungeons which can be farmed constantly would either add resources or would end up without rewards, playing just to fight NPCs.
Another frequent statement is "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay"
That is said to support the PvP aspect of the PvX game-play.
Solo dungeons are not PvX.
AoC is not a PvE game.
That's ok, I am quite fine as a solo player.
Thanks for the view in nodes and citizenship. I guess it's a small difference of opinion or just semantics at this point. But I see my citizenship status, and interest in my node as social. I am working with and learning about other players in the node. Perhaps I am even making some commodity that is helping them.
The worry I have is with such narrow definitions and labels being placed on players. Along with statements being made outright towards solo players that "Ashes will not be for you."
To me this is very concerning as it's known that a large player base will be needed on a server for the entire system to function. And already it seems that someone being tagged a solo is already being discouraged from even exploring the game.
It really kind of turns me off from the game and this development team if they are so rigid in their design. That adoption of this game will only be among hardcore players. Which will be a failure in my opinion.
I thought Ashes was going to be about community. And finding that it may be something else make me a little worried. Either way, I will still most likely purchase and start in launch day. Hopefully it will hook me in and I can play this through my retirement years.
The vast majority of the design caters to masses of people playing alongside each other while focused on completing the same tasks/challenges.
That will not be a thing. Ashes is designed to for players to constantly be at high Risk.
This is especially stark with solo players, because, as you said, Ashes is about community. But it's "community" in the way of "you gotta be a part of one if you wanna succeed, because others WILL be a part of one and will prevent you from succeeding".
No one will tell you that the game is not for you, as long as you're ok with just playing at your own slow pace and enjoying the little content you can get for what it is. The issues start when the solo player starts asking for high value content that's targeted purely at them, where they can pretty much exist outside of the game's social structures, yet still succeed in the same way that guild players do.
Those kinds of suggestions are usually the ones that trigger the "not for you" replies. Because, at that point, the reply is true. The game is not targeted at those kind of players. Yes, there will be some content that a solo player will be able to do. But it will be nowhere near anything that's equal to party-based content, let alone raid or guild.
And after that reply the conversation usually devolves into "this game is DOA if it doesn't appeal to my exact preferences, because only my preferences should be appealed to". And you yourself point out that not targeting the broader masses is a bad choice of design.
But from the very inception of the game Steven knew what kind of game he was making. And, if anything, it's only gotten even more hardcore with time. We've gotten more forced pvp content, we've gotten info about systems that are so deep into guild-based groups that solo players will never even come close to them. And absolute majority of design pillars that go against soloability are still in the game, even after years of people complaining about them and threatening Intrepid with DOA claims.
And because of ALLLL of that, it's much easier to respond with a "it's not for you" to anyone who barges in suggesting stuff that goes against the design direction of the game, rather than just going
And pointlessly trying to explain what I just explained to the one suggesting the counter-design. And it's pointless because, in my 4 years of being here, I don't remember a single person who came here with those kinds of suggestions, got told "nah, the game is not about that", and then went "oh damn, didn't know that. Yeah, that's fine, I'll just chill then".
It's all an exercise in futility for both sides of the discussion.
In no way am I going to ask for. Nor do I see how I am even qualified to offer such detailed gameplay concepts. I'm a financial analyst for goodness sakes, not a game designer.
I do know this discussion, as you point out, is a full on existential debate about MMO's that has gone on since MMO's were a thing.
I have faith that Intrepid and Steven, are in the quest to create something pretty amazing
Ah I never saw this on the wiki "Encourage localized grouping" this is great to see! I love the idea of trying to encourage people to join guilds, encourage rather than force is a great approach. I used to be extremely introverted and NEVER want to meet new people, I even hated LFG and joining games with randoms. But after joining a community/guild it as brought me out of my shell a LOT and I don't mind interacting with people any more and meeting new people, I even met with loads of people IRL from my community and it was fantastic! So I can definitely vouch for encouraging people to join guilds.
Ok reading it back I realize my wording is a bit contradictory with the 2 dungeons thing haha, the point I was trying to make was just basically having little bits and bobs here and there for people to just plod around and do on there own. So no necessarily dungeons etc. but things that a solo would be able to enjoy but without making them such a big deal that everyone will flood for it. Sort of filler content might be a good way to described it maybe? I don't know, the vision seems good in my head but can't seem to word it how I see it hahaha xD
Ah I see, reading this it does seem like it won't be an issue for people who want to play solo or if you just want to hop on and solo for a little while if no one is active at the time. Good to see, I think with this it will encourage more people to play the game that are more solo orientated then as long as they don't mind the extra challenge!
I always hear people say the "the game won't be for everyone" and I agree, it won't be. But people say this without the encouragement of but everyone should at least try it, when I first heard about ashes way back I heard this statement and then heard from people saying "it is going to be impossible to play solo" & "don't bother playing if your just gonna play solo". Which is why I ended up joining a guild (which was a great thing to happen anyway), so I feel people need to know that even if they ARE just going to play solo everyone should try it as it might still be one of the most enjoyable games they have ever played.
People think that they want soloable valuable content, but in reality the don't, because it'll never be as rewarding as content that you gotta clear with a group of other people. And on top of that you're forced to interact with other people, but w/o physically meeting them so it's much easier to survive that interaction for anyone who has social anxiety.
Imo this is an ultimate good, even though a lot of people lately think that forced grouping is bad.
You say "that will not be a thing" yet they have said you could pay players to guard your caravan etc. So how will it not be a thing? I see someone role-playing as a merchant, buying a selling across the continents and connecting with people and paying people for protection to be a very viable way of someone spending there time in Verra. Saying "that will not be a thing" is a big statement for something that seems very possible. At least in my opinion.
Of course, "I'll just chill" typically means "I'll play some other game that better fits my playstyle."
And then those people leave the Forums.
You can see in my fist post which you also quoted that I presented things a solo player can do.
That was the first part which I written fast.
Then I thought a lot how to end the post so you don't feel bad but at the same time to realize why such dungeons as you suggested are against the game pillars.
Given how P0GG0 was commenting in the thread, I had to remind him what Steven often says.
And I have no reason to give people false hopes as long as Steven wants the game to be as documented on wiki.
You put in quotation marks "it is going to be impossible to play solo"
I never said "impossible". That is what you hear. Maybe other people have similar high expectations... like Dygz.
A nice adventure is when somebody tries to kill you and you escape.
You can look at the scenery too. You will not be in danger all the time.
Traveling from city to city without caravans will definitely be possible. But with small fast caravans, it will be a nice adventure.
You can be a merchant too. If you are skilled at predicting prices and talking to people, for sure you can find others to help you out. You just drive the caravan and they fight.
Don't know how these quote things work so just gonna have to quote the whole thing, my response to you wasn't targeting what you where saying. You mentioned I quoted "it is going to be impossible to play solo" then proceeded to say that you never said that, but I never said you said it. What I said was "then heard from people saying "it is going to be impossible to play solo" ". I wasn't aiming that at you but making a statement saying that other people with the mindset that this game is only group orientated sort of push that it's pointless to play if they are a solo rather than encouraging people that it could still be an enjoyable game if they tried it and potentially grow to enjoy more group orientated content.
Reminder that Intrepid wants our feedback on all ideas, negative or positive. It would be against the purpose of open development if those of us against an idea didn't speak up about it.
I get that you're passionately on one side of the argument, so the best thing you can do is articulate why you have the position you do. Belittling the other side doesn't gain anyone anything but anger.
Sorry to come off as patronizing.
you social media generation have no idea how unimportant u are.
People are just bored waiting for A2 and you're toxic.
These discussions are for the community, not just for the devs to do stuff to the game. The whole point in a forum is to DISCUSS things 😂
The devs will look at a lot of the forums to see what people's opinions are and they will specifically ask for opinions on many things as they do, but at the end of the day this is here to see what other people think about a topic. Not just you.
However, I do think the rewards system should benefit smaller ball groups/solo players vs zergs as it requires more skill, coordination and teamwork.
In general, I have never had fun in 20+++ groups in ESO, all my memories and fun from that game have been in very small intimate 4-5 people groups.
And by "I'm gonna chill" I didn't mean "I'm gonna go play other stuff", I meant "I'm gonna play the game for what it is, rather than for what I want it to be".
It's all about expectations and ambitions. You're on a very extreme end of stubborn preferences when it comes to your games, so it's difficult to use you as an example for anything less extreme, but there are people out there who can compromise some of their preferences, as long as other parts of the game are fun.
A lot of people are used to expecting content that appeals to them and also expect it to provide them with enough reward to match their high ambitions. And there's enough of these people in the genre that majority of mmos started appealing to them. Ashes will not. And that's ok.
But it will appeal to people who just wanna hang out in a huge living world that progresses even w/o their input. There won't be as many of these kinds of people as there could've been those who I described above, but, as I keep saying, Steven knew this when he was deciding what kind of game to make.
We will stun People until they jump off Cliffs or drown themselves in muddy ponds trying to escape the Consequences of thinking i am solo.
Then i will act like i am playing together with Others by playing together with others first. But then i won't. And then will again. And when everyone thinks i play together, like a good little Insecure-Casual : i give the Signal to my Schizo-Self and betray all of my Friends just for shits and giggles.
I will push People off Cliffs. I will pull Levers that them fall in Lava. Or let them get ganked by Enemies by cutting off our own escape Route. That is what they get for thinking that i play together.
* wakes up * - * hits my Head on the sloped Ceiling over my Head * - * proceeds to swear and curse *
Where is my Snickers ? I am not me when i dream about playing Alpha Two despite it not being here yet ... ...
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
you guys spam all day with blocks of words that mean nothing. this is helping none.
you mixing ideas with endless mental gymnastic intrepid should be doing. you guys dont realise you slowing them down.
if any of you somehow showed up at their building they'd call security. real life vs social media.
i'm old enuf to know that the most talkative people on thee internet are not the most competent.
However, the question then becomes - what happens if you don't like the game for what it is?