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The dwarf skin and design still doesn't convince me

ArtharionArtharion Member, Alpha Two
edited August 1 in General Discussion
Since Alpha 1, we haven't seen the dwarves in gameplay. While the latest concept art suggested they would appear tougher and broader, as the dwarves in Alpha 1 looked more like hypertrophied muscular hobbits than traditional dwarves. After watching yesterday's stream, I'm still not convinced by their design.

Of course, there's no single way to portray dwarves, and perhaps Ashes of Creation intends to present them differently. However, in my opinion, the dwarves in AoC appear too short. They seem to be the same height as typical hobbits or gnomes from other fantasy universes, where they only reach up to a human's abdomen. In those same universes, dwarves usually reach the chest of an average human.

ashes-of-creation-party-rock.jpg

In the attached image, the dwarf reaches only the bard's abdomen. This makes them look more like a hobbit or a gnome than a classic dwarf. To better fit the classic dwarf look, they should be a bit taller, reaching at least to the bard's chest. Additionally, the body model should be broader, especially in the legs, which currently don't look strong enough.

Looking at other fantasy universes, we can see that dwarves typically have a similar height range, reaching the chest of an average human, while gnomes and hobbits only come up to the abdomen or slightly above the waist.

Dungeons and Dragons:
gki9h56kx1sa1.png

World of Warcraft:
0r0qnfyl5454.png

Besides their height, dwarves are known for being strong, with big bushy beards, strong voices, and muscular builds. Classic dwarves are shorter than other races, but these attributes prevent them from looking small. The dwarves in AoC appear very short and small, almost like midgets flipping around. Dwarves aren't supposed to be small; they're meant to be stout and hardy. I don't get that impression from AoC's dwarves.

I would prefer a dwarf design similar to those in Warhammer Fantasy:

gfjzoky6gcjc.png

Or even if they don't look that stout and hardy, at least not that short. In The Lord of the Rings, Gimli's height reaches the chests of Aragorn and Legolas. While he might not look as hardy as Warhammer Fantasy dwarves, he still appears taller than hobbits, which sets him apart and makes him look bigger.

FOD-0MNVQAopEaX?format=jpg&name=medium

36b3e-16394630510324-1920.jpg


In summary, in my opinion, they should change the model so that:

- They should make them taller, because otherwise they look like hobbits or gnomes.
- The legs look too thin and disproportionate compared to the torso. They should make them stronger and more muscular.
- Overall, they should look more stocky and broad, so that despite being the shortest class, they don't look small but rather like tanks.
- I also think it should be mandatory for them to always have some kind of beard. I believe a dwarf without a beard (at least a Dunir) is not a dwarf.

Perhaps some people like the current concept of dwarves and it fits their vision. In my case, I would prefer a redesign closer to the examples I mentioned. What do you think?
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Comments

  • GarrtokGarrtok Member, Alpha Two
    The flip while jumping was ridiculous, that was my concern
  • ArtharionArtharion Member, Alpha Two
    Garrtok wrote: »
    The flip while jumping was ridiculous, that was my concern

    Totally. I would only keep the flip for certain classes like the rogue or maybe certain races like Py'Rae, like in WoW where only Night Elf do flips.

    But my big concern if the hole skin and concept of the dwarf, they look like midgets, hobbits or gnomes.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    I mean, the Spell Book's as big as the dwarf is. At least one of them could do with a size change.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • ArtharionArtharion Member, Alpha Two
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I mean, the Spell Book's as big as the dwarf is. At least one of them could do with a size change.

    Having a shield that literally covers his entire body doesn't help to see him well, but it definitely makes him look too small.
  • TsunahmieTsunahmie Member, Alpha Two
    I agree. I'd much prefer something like out of LotR or rings of power/the hobbit
    Dwarves should be sturdy and above all else: NO FRONTFLIPS! Seriously, the frontflips looked ridiculous and totally ruins immersion.
    I did like the big shield, but also agree with OP that rn the dwarves are about a foot too short
    [Fortunes Wrath] https://fortuneswrath.com/
    Cleric
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  • I think they haven't achieved a balance in the heights of the races yet, I see the humans too small. The orcs must be more fearsome due to their nature, here they look like fortnite. There is a lack of realism in the conceptual art of Intrepid.

    The graphic aspect of the game has improved a lot. But it doesn't convince me. The game lacks more realism. Is AoC a fantasy medieval mmo or a fortnite type mmo?, or an asian type mmo?, I can't find the identity of this game.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    tbh seems to be the height of everquest 1 dwarfs they came up to human waist (gnome was slightly shorter than dwarfs aswell like 1 third of a head shorter) although everquest dwarfs look a bit more bulky.
    That also being said there also a possibility that there a height slider for the character create (Cant remember if that was the case when they showed it off) and this particular drawf might be the shortest setting so there also that to think about.

  • ArtharionArtharion Member, Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    tbh seems to be the height of everquest 1 dwarfs they came up to human waist (gnome was slightly shorter than dwarfs aswell like 1 third of a head shorter) although everquest dwarfs look a bit more bulky.
    That also being said there also a possibility that there a height slider for the character create (Cant remember if that was the case when they showed it off) and this particular drawf might be the shortest setting so there also that to think about.

    I've thought about that too. In the character creator, each race could have the option to choose their height, with variations specific to each race. For example, the shortest Ren Kai could be the same height as a tall human, things like that. But I do hope that the average height of the dwarf isn't so low.
  • ShabooeyShabooey Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 1
    I was excited to see the new Dunir model but unfortunately it didn't deliver for me. I think it looks similar to the A1 Dunir, still looked too small and the movement seemed off when running. The other models run with their whole body but the Dunir looked like it's legs were just going really fast, seemed odd to me. I'll also echo what others have said and the flip was a weird choice.

    When the Dunir was stood next to the Ren'Kai it looked like it was being your kid to work day, it looked silly. I wasn't getting the vibe that " they're pound for pound the strongest warriors the world has ever known." Looked more like Frodo and Sam walking through Modor in Orc armour.

    I agree with OP, other games have done so much better with their vision of a Dwarf, hope IS take it through another pass, but if that is their vision of a Dwarf then I'll just play another race.
  • SolmyrSolmyr Member
    That image is a little bit misleading, all the other characters are standing up straight, while the dwarf is in a half-crouched stance with the shield up. Here's a better comparison from later in the stream:
    e7cterr21ls4.png
    I think their proportions are in a good spot, though you're right that some of the other stuff could use some work. The flip was definitely jarring, and the shield completely obscuring the head was a little silly.
  • SherkusSherkus Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I agree, but probably they want to have their own kind of dwarfs, anyway they have much time to change the dwarf it they want.

    I am more concerned about the dwarf's hitbox in any case, that being shorter for action combat has an advantage and could be meta even, one way to balance that is indeed to make it wider yes.
  • ArtharionArtharion Member, Alpha Two
    Solmyr wrote: »
    That image is a little bit misleading, all the other characters are standing up straight, while the dwarf is in a half-crouched stance with the shield up. Here's a better comparison from later in the stream:
    e7cterr21ls4.png
    I think their proportions are in a good spot, though you're right that some of the other stuff could use some work. The flip was definitely jarring, and the shield completely obscuring the head was a little silly.

    Not sure man, the angle of your image seems more tilted than mine.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Artharion wrote: »
    Solmyr wrote: »
    That image is a little bit misleading, all the other characters are standing up straight, while the dwarf is in a half-crouched stance with the shield up. Here's a better comparison from later in the stream:
    e7cterr21ls4.png
    I think their proportions are in a good spot, though you're right that some of the other stuff could use some work. The flip was definitely jarring, and the shield completely obscuring the head was a little silly.

    Not sure man, the angle of your image seems more tilted than mine.

    he is crouching to a degree in ur picture when he sheild blocking not sure if that cause of blocking or he actually crouched while blocking, If look bottom left of the shield u can see his knee and they are quite a bit bent probaly like 50-60 degree bend in the knee and above the waist it looks like he leaning forward a bit too.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There will be sliders in the character creator, but...
    Like I said 3 years ago, after A1 - don't expect the Dwarves to be much taller or much wider.
    The devs did make them a bit beefier than they were in A1.
  • AimNothyngAimNothyng Member, Alpha Two
    Imagine a dwarf in full plate armor doing flips everytime he jumps.
    Can we please remove the ridiculous flips? :#
  • LodrigLodrig Member
    edited August 1
    As a 100% Dwarf player in every vidoe game and pen and paper RPG I agree that stocky Warhammer like Dwarves are the way to go and so far they are looking good and I have no issues.

    Also Dwarf flipps are OK so long as we are not being TOSSED. :)
  • TryolTryol Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Down with the flips!
  • BarabBarab Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 1
    Excellent post...I agree 100% but will withhold final feedback till I personally test and see the new Dunir in a1 spot testing hopefully. Appreciate all involved working on the models but were just providing honest feedback here on our favorite fantasy race.
    The Dünir Hold Mithril Warhammers,Thanes of the Keelhaul, Dünir scourge of the oceans, Warhammer First Fleet Command of The Dünzenkell Nation, friends to the Dünir Dwarves of the Dünhold. Hammers High!
    y139ot6w1eku.png
  • GreatPhilisopherGreatPhilisopher Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 1
    kinda true , its a bit better than A1 but they seem too short still and not wide enough . i am fine with the flips tho lol
    ykwk7qwgw5os.jpg
  • UromirUromir Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2
    I didn't like the flip, im fine with the rest :) I hope I can create too a dwarf with a red mohawk similar to Warhammer Slayers
  • MeLlamanOsakaMeLlamanOsaka Member, Alpha Two
    I agree with a readjustment of the dwarf race. I haven't seen them for a long time, and the first impression after such a long time is "what are you doing, little guy, are you lost?
  • LudulluLudullu Member, Alpha Two
    INTREPID, DON'T YOU FUCKING DARE TOUCH FRONTFLIPS!
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    agree, they have come a fair distance with a few features but graphics does not seem to be one of them, i think the flip is a really cool design, but just not for the dwarf lol, definitely agree it could be for an elf. but if they do decide to keep the flip i would like to see it less floaty, it just looks like their bouncing on a trampoline and gravity doesn't exist, feels weird to me

    im not really a fan with any of the models so far, i feel all the races we have seen just look way to generic with no real style, the dwarf just looks like a shrunken down Kaelar and squished into a gnome like shape lol, i would really like to see intrepid pick a direction of art and stick with it, some of the cosmetics i have seen for example

    kk7a3gartgi3.png

    look absolutely amazing, given this is a full armor set you can't really see the model, but then when i see the model in a live stream it just feels like its missing something. hopefully this is because we are in an alpha, but i mean we can't say this forever, im sure after this time period some things should be starting to have some polish
  • ArtharionArtharion Member, Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    agree, they have come a fair distance with a few features but graphics does not seem to be one of them, i think the flip is a really cool design, but just not for the dwarf lol, definitely agree it could be for an elf. but if they do decide to keep the flip i would like to see it less floaty, it just looks like their bouncing on a trampoline and gravity doesn't exist, feels weird to me

    im not really a fan with any of the models so far, i feel all the races we have seen just look way to generic with no real style, the dwarf just looks like a shrunken down Kaelar and squished into a gnome like shape lol, i would really like to see intrepid pick a direction of art and stick with it, some of the cosmetics i have seen for example

    kk7a3gartgi3.png

    look absolutely amazing, given this is a full armor set you can't really see the model, but then when i see the model in a live stream it just feels like its missing something. hopefully this is because we are in an alpha, but i mean we can't say this forever, im sure after this time period some things should be starting to have some polish

    100% agree.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Artharion wrote: »
    in my opinion, the dwarves in AoC appear too short.



    ashes-of-creation-party-rock.jpg






    In the attached image, the dwarf reaches only the bard's abdomen. This makes them look more like a hobbit or a gnome than a classic dwarf. To better fit the classic dwarf look, they should be a bit taller, reaching at least to the bard's chest. Additionally, the body model should be broader, especially in the legs, which currently don't look strong enough.

    Looking at other fantasy universes, we can see that dwarves typically have a similar height range, reaching the chest of an average human, while gnomes and hobbits only come up to the abdomen or slightly above the waist.




    In summary, in my opinion, they should change the model so that:

    - They should make them taller, because otherwise they look like hobbits or gnomes.

    While i may want to agree with You that they could make the Dwarves a little bit more broad and sturdy,



    NO !!!!! We finally - FIIIIIINALLY - have short Dwarves. Let them stay like this, Please. Dwarves are not called dwarves for nothing. Heck short Humans are not called Dwarves for nothing. They are supposed to be SHORT.



    We have finally the "short, angry Men with Axes" (lol) that everyone should be concerned to piss off. Don't take that from us, Please.

    Like when in the second, epic Lord of the Rings Trilogy the Dwarves fought for a short while against the Elves before the Orc Army entered the fray. The Elves were TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL compared to the Dwarves. This is how it should be.

    Imagine how epic it will be, when Dwarves in Node Sieges, Castle Sieges - and everywhere else, stand their Ground against People double their Size and above. How much more badass could Dwarves possibly be ?




    The Lines i used in the first Picture - are the "where ABOUT" underneath the Helmet i estimate the highest Point of their Heads to be. The Elves alone are already like double as tall as the Dwarves. And they are not even the tallest Race. They are just very long and slender.




    gknkguffmcm4.jpg





    82gs4xb6nhmb.jpg





    The Dwarves in WoW are already nearly to huge for Dwarves. I wouldn't complain if they would be half a (Dwarven) Head smaller - because well they are already Bodybuilders in Build like the Orc's.

    But because the Horde - since WoW Vanilla - have Orc's and Tauren - the Developers i think didn't wanted the Dwarves to be to tiny in Comparison. For that, the Alliance has Gnomes. (lol)




    I never saw the Frontflip, but i dare say that is no Problem. Let Dwarves stay dwarvish/tiny Compared to Empyreans, Vek, Renkai and Humans Please. They are literally in their own League of Badass. If you make them bigger, you take that Badassery from them that they have as tinier People.
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    Solmyr wrote: »
    e7cterr21ls4.png





    I think their proportions are in a good spot, though you're right that some of the other stuff could use some work. The flip was definitely jarring, and the shield completely obscuring the head was a little silly.

    I don't see where there could possibly lie any Problem. The Dwarven Sir is more broad and sturdy looking than the Human Lady. And Yes i am aware Women are more slender and not as broad as Men. But neither is he so small that he is like a Gnome or Halfling compared to her - nor does he look weak and not sturdy enough.


    I am aware when he crouched and stood behind his Shield for a strong Block - he looked tinier by a bit than he actually is.
    a50whcz343yn.png
    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
  • ArtharionArtharion Member, Alpha Two
    Aszkalon wrote: »
    Artharion wrote: »
    in my opinion, the dwarves in AoC appear too short.



    ashes-of-creation-party-rock.jpg






    In the attached image, the dwarf reaches only the bard's abdomen. This makes them look more like a hobbit or a gnome than a classic dwarf. To better fit the classic dwarf look, they should be a bit taller, reaching at least to the bard's chest. Additionally, the body model should be broader, especially in the legs, which currently don't look strong enough.

    Looking at other fantasy universes, we can see that dwarves typically have a similar height range, reaching the chest of an average human, while gnomes and hobbits only come up to the abdomen or slightly above the waist.




    In summary, in my opinion, they should change the model so that:

    - They should make them taller, because otherwise they look like hobbits or gnomes.

    While i may want to agree with You that they could make the Dwarves a little bit more broad and sturdy,



    NO !!!!! We finally - FIIIIIINALLY - have short Dwarves. Let them stay like this, Please. Dwarves are not called dwarves for nothing. Heck short Humans are not called Dwarves for nothing. They are supposed to be SHORT.



    We have finally the "short, angry Men with Axes" (lol) that everyone should be concerned to piss off. Don't take that from us, Please.

    Like when in the second, epic Lord of the Rings Trilogy the Dwarves fought for a short while against the Elves before the Orc Army entered the fray. The Elves were TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL compared to the Dwarves. This is how it should be.

    Imagine how epic it will be, when Dwarves in Node Sieges, Castle Sieges - and everywhere else, stand their Ground against People double their Size and above. How much more badass could Dwarves possibly be ?




    The Lines i used in the first Picture - are the "where ABOUT" underneath the Helmet i estimate the highest Point of their Heads to be. The Elves alone are already like double as tall as the Dwarves. And they are not even the tallest Race. They are just very long and slender.




    gknkguffmcm4.jpg





    82gs4xb6nhmb.jpg





    The Dwarves in WoW are already nearly to huge for Dwarves. I wouldn't complain if they would be half a (Dwarven) Head smaller - because well they are already Bodybuilders in Build like the Orc's.

    But because the Horde - since WoW Vanilla - have Orc's and Tauren - the Developers i think didn't wanted the Dwarves to be to tiny in Comparison. For that, the Alliance has Gnomes. (lol)




    I never saw the Frontflip, but i dare say that is no Problem. Let Dwarves stay dwarvish/tiny Compared to Empyreans, Vek, Renkai and Humans Please. They are literally in their own League of Badass. If you make them bigger, you take that Badassery from them that they have as tinier People.

    Elves are taller than humans on average, which is why in your image, the dwarves' height doesn't reach their chests. As shown in the LOTR trilogy, dwarves are a bit shorter.
  • ShabooeyShabooey Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2
    jy64h5fufnlg.png

    I was expecting the proportions to be more like this to be honest, think the proportions of the new model, as I mentioned above, are just off to me. Think this and the Armoured Dunir model Chicago shared look good, the Dunir in the Bard showcase looks a bit squashed down.
  • -T0Mb--T0Mb- Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2
    I was disappointed because the dwarf didn't have any beard. Beards are the most common detail on dwarves (especially on males). If the beard models for dwarves aren't ready yet why Intrepid even showed this unfinished beardless model for us in the game?

    About the dwarf's height I can't yet say my opinion. In some way it looked comical that the dwarf was so short and could hide completely behind his shield but I think the dwarf could be more sturdy. Let's not forget that we haven't seen yet the new character creator. ;)

    What comes into those front flips I don't care. Intrepid can do whatever they want with those flips.
  • buujahbuujah Member
    I totally celebrated the dwarf behind the shield.

    The size didn't really trigger me. in my opinion the flip should perhaps be reconsidered, although that wouldn't be a turn-off for me either.

    Maybe then the players won't jump around so wildly and pointlessly ;)
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