The dwarf skin and design still doesn't convince me

CroakerRPG

I think dwarves in Ashes are intended to be a mixture of dwarves, gnomes, and halflings. The latter two races, unless I've missed mention of an NPC somewhere, don't seem to appear in the game at all. It's entirely possible that the dwarf subraces and customization options are going to be intended to allow players to play to one of these racial types while still being called "dwarf".

Dygz

Chicago wrote: »

look absolutely amazing, given this is a full armor set you can't really see the model, but then when i see the model in a live stream it just feels like its missing something. hopefully this is because we are in an alpha, but i mean we can't say this forever, im sure after this time period some things should be starting to have some polish

Gnomes are significantly thinner than that image.
That image is how DUnir appeared in A1.
Players wanted a beefier rendition, so, after adjusting for 3 years we now have the current rounder, thicker version.
Sliders may help a bit with height.

Dygz

Shabooey wrote: »

I was expecting the proportions to be more like this to be honest, think the proportions of the new model, as I mentioned above, are just off to me. Think this and the Armoured Dunir model Chicago shared look good, the Dunir in the Bard showcase looks a bit squashed down.

That image is mostly to demo the appearance of the different Racial/Cultural versions of the same armor set.
It was not intended to be an example of Racial size comparisons.

Mag7spy

I'm just going to post the old school DnD picture. But people need to remember there are sliders in game its giving me the vibe people have not played any modern mmorpgs before....Like they are going in thinking all bae models will be the same because their last experience of a mmorpg made 20 years ago.

People AoC is not Dnd doesn't mean they have gnomes or follow it exactly they are their own thing....

Mag7spy

,

Artharion wrote: »

Aszkalon wrote: »

Artharion wrote: »

in my opinion, the dwarves in AoC appear too short.










In the attached image, the dwarf reaches only the bard's abdomen. This makes them look more like a hobbit or a gnome than a classic dwarf. To better fit the classic dwarf look, they should be a bit taller, reaching at least to the bard's chest. Additionally, the body model should be broader, especially in the legs, which currently don't look strong enough.

Looking at other fantasy universes, we can see that dwarves typically have a similar height range, reaching the chest of an average human, while gnomes and hobbits only come up to the abdomen or slightly above the waist.




In summary, in my opinion, they should change the model so that:

- They should make them taller, because otherwise they look like hobbits or gnomes.

While i may want to agree with You that they could make the Dwarves a little bit more broad and sturdy,



NO !!!!! We finally - FIIIIIINALLY - have short Dwarves. Let them stay like this, Please. Dwarves are not called dwarves for nothing. Heck short Humans are not called Dwarves for nothing. They are supposed to be SHORT.



We have finally the "short, angry Men with Axes" (lol) that everyone should be concerned to piss off. Don't take that from us, Please.

Like when in the second, epic Lord of the Rings Trilogy the Dwarves fought for a short while against the Elves before the Orc Army entered the fray. The Elves were TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL compared to the Dwarves. This is how it should be.

Imagine how epic it will be, when Dwarves in Node Sieges, Castle Sieges - and everywhere else, stand their Ground against People double their Size and above. How much more badass could Dwarves possibly be ?




The Lines i used in the first Picture - are the "where ABOUT" underneath the Helmet i estimate the highest Point of their Heads to be. The Elves alone are already like double as tall as the Dwarves. And they are not even the tallest Race. They are just very long and slender.
















The Dwarves in WoW are already nearly to huge for Dwarves. I wouldn't complain if they would be half a (Dwarven) Head smaller - because well they are already Bodybuilders in Build like the Orc's.

But because the Horde - since WoW Vanilla - have Orc's and Tauren - the Developers i think didn't wanted the Dwarves to be to tiny in Comparison. For that, the Alliance has Gnomes. (lol)




I never saw the Frontflip, but i dare say that is no Problem. Let Dwarves stay dwarvish/tiny Compared to Empyreans, Vek, Renkai and Humans Please. They are literally in their own League of Badass. If you make them bigger, you take that Badassery from them that they have as tinier People.

Elves are taller than humans on average, which is why in your image, the dwarves' height doesn't reach their chests. As shown in the LOTR trilogy, dwarves are a bit shorter.

Elves are not taller lol.

Solvryn

They might take their inspirations farther back than tolkien.

By Ymirs bones!

Dygz

I think Ashes Orcs also are significantly different in appearance compared to the Tolkien film.
Tolkien's illustration of Dwarves are probably even smaller than the Ashes Dunir.


Also, keep in mind that Ashes is inspired by Steven's homebrew Pathfinder campaign.

Uncommon Sense

The spell book was about the same size as the Dunir...

Maybe up the Dunir model by 10%.

Same height as the shield was perfectly feasible and meets expectations...Though I'd expect some eye holes or a peek section cut out.

GrappLr

Front flips were amazing in Alpha 1. Leave that alone.

RocketFarmer

What dwarf? All I saw was a shield.

Thoghli Ramheart

GrappLr wrote: »

Front flips were amazing in Alpha 1. Leave that alone.

They were horrible, I would say if you want the front flip to stay then have it on the Nikuan.

RocketFarmer

The Nikua need a slide animation that looks like turf surfing. Make it spammable and call it Surf N Turf followed with a knock down.

Aszkalon

Artharion wrote: »

Elves are taller than humans on average, which is why in your image, the dwarves' height doesn't reach their chests. As shown in the LOTR trilogy, dwarves are a bit shorter.

This should be okay if it is like this in the World of Verra too, or not ?


I understand your Desire to have Dwarves look very strong. But if they are - "again" - not really shorter than Humans and Elves - then they are not really that dwarvish /much dwarvish.


Wouldn't it be badass, awesome and hilarious if a whole Node of Renkai, Vek, or Tulnar falls - to a huge Army of tiny, angry, bearded Men with Axes and thick Armors ?? Hahahahahahah.

Chicago

Dygz wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

look absolutely amazing, given this is a full armor set you can't really see the model, but then when i see the model in a live stream it just feels like its missing something. hopefully this is because we are in an alpha, but i mean we can't say this forever, im sure after this time period some things should be starting to have some polish

Gnomes are significantly thinner than that image.
That image is how DUnir appeared in A1.
Players wanted a beefier rendition, so, after adjusting for 3 years we now have the current rounder, thicker version.
Sliders may help a bit with height.

The problem is this is not how they look on game

Dripyula

I too thought that this Dwarf is at least around "half a head" tinier than what I would have expected.
But the armor estetic is spot-on. And I totally like how he crouched behind what looked like a mid-size shield and almost completeld "disappeared" behind it.

Bulky, robust and tough. And what is behind his shield? An armor that is like a second shield!
And what lurks beneath his beard? Just another beard!

Aszkalon

Artharion wrote: »

I would prefer a dwarf design similar to those in Warhammer Fantasy:

The thing is ... ... ...






... ... ... Verra is NOT the World of Warcraft or Warhammer Universe.

On Azeroth, many Races eat Steroids and Anabolics for Breakfast and train +10 Hours in the Gym Six Days a Week or so. This is how jacked and buff they all look.




I am not against this. Absolutely not. But can we have Dwarves being tiny and not automatically Doping-abusing Bodybuilders Please ? Same as every other Race.

From what i have seen, only Renkai - (and probably/likely(?) Tulnar) will be very robust and buff looking Races.


Humans are normal. Thanks God. Elves don't seem to lifting all Day in the Gym also. This is okay. We don't need another Universe of Azeroth.


I think right now that Dwarves are very underestimated in the Universe of Verra. We were spoiled with some Franchises in which Dwarves look like they eat Bull Nads every Morning, Noon and Evening.

Dezmerizing

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm just going to post the old school DnD picture. But people need to remember there are sliders in game its giving me the vibe people have not played any modern mmorpgs before....Like they are going in thinking all bae models will be the same because their last experience of a mmorpg made 20 years ago.

People AoC is not Dnd doesn't mean they have gnomes or follow it exactly they are their own thing....

vs.

Dygz wrote: »

I think Ashes Orcs also are significantly different in appearance compared to the Tolkien film.
Tolkien's illustration of Dwarves are probably even smaller than the Ashes Dunir.


Also, keep in mind that Ashes is inspired by Steven's homebrew Pathfinder campaign.

Obviously, elven height is very much dependent on which universe we're talking about, but I do love DnDs take on having elves being (slightly) shorter than humans on average. I am really tired of the take of elves being sometimes massively taller than humans (looking at you, FF14...)

But hey, I am partial cause I am a short person myself though, so DnD 5E hit me just right as an elf enthusiast. X']

I'll live either way, but here is to hoping for same size as human or slightly shorter!

EDIT: as for dwarves, I was also a bit taken aback by how tiny they looked when they were hiding behind their shields... At least a bit broader wouldn't hurt (at least for the dunir).

It did look slightly better when he stood up tall without the shield though!

As for the flip (and size)... I'd prefer without, but I leave the dwarf enthusiasts to have the final say in that. I feel like that is fair.

Tharmekhul

Artharion wrote: »

Since Alpha 1, we haven't seen the dwarves in gameplay. While the latest concept art suggested they would appear tougher and broader, as the dwarves in Alpha 1 looked more like hypertrophied muscular hobbits than traditional dwarves. After watching yesterday's stream, I'm still not convinced by their design.

Of course, there's no single way to portray dwarves, and perhaps Ashes of Creation intends to present them differently. However, in my opinion, the dwarves in AoC appear too short. They seem to be the same height as typical hobbits or gnomes from other fantasy universes, where they only reach up to a human's abdomen. In those same universes, dwarves usually reach the chest of an average human.



In the attached image, the dwarf reaches only the bard's abdomen. This makes them look more like a hobbit or a gnome than a classic dwarf. To better fit the classic dwarf look, they should be a bit taller, reaching at least to the bard's chest. Additionally, the body model should be broader, especially in the legs, which currently don't look strong enough.

Looking at other fantasy universes, we can see that dwarves typically have a similar height range, reaching the chest of an average human, while gnomes and hobbits only come up to the abdomen or slightly above the waist.

Dungeons and Dragons:


World of Warcraft:


Besides their height, dwarves are known for being strong, with big bushy beards, strong voices, and muscular builds. Classic dwarves are shorter than other races, but these attributes prevent them from looking small. The dwarves in AoC appear very short and small, almost like midgets flipping around. Dwarves aren't supposed to be small; they're meant to be stout and hardy. I don't get that impression from AoC's dwarves.

I would prefer a dwarf design similar to those in Warhammer Fantasy:



Or even if they don't look that stout and hardy, at least not that short. In The Lord of the Rings, Gimli's height reaches the chests of Aragorn and Legolas. While he might not look as hardy as Warhammer Fantasy dwarves, he still appears taller than hobbits, which sets him apart and makes him look bigger.






In summary, in my opinion, they should change the model so that:

- They should make them taller, because otherwise they look like hobbits or gnomes.
- The legs look too thin and disproportionate compared to the torso. They should make them stronger and more muscular.
- Overall, they should look more stocky and broad, so that despite being the shortest class, they don't look small but rather like tanks.
- I also think it should be mandatory for them to always have some kind of beard. I believe a dwarf without a beard (at least a Dunir) is not a dwarf.

Perhaps some people like the current concept of dwarves and it fits their vision. In my case, I would prefer a redesign closer to the examples I mentioned. What do you think?

Artharion wrote: »

Since Alpha 1, we haven't seen the dwarves in gameplay. While the latest concept art suggested they would appear tougher and broader, as the dwarves in Alpha 1 looked more like hypertrophied muscular hobbits than traditional dwarves. After watching yesterday's stream, I'm still not convinced by their design.

Of course, there's no single way to portray dwarves, and perhaps Ashes of Creation intends to present them differently. However, in my opinion, the dwarves in AoC appear too short. They seem to be the same height as typical hobbits or gnomes from other fantasy universes, where they only reach up to a human's abdomen. In those same universes, dwarves usually reach the chest of an average human.



In the attached image, the dwarf reaches only the bard's abdomen. This makes them look more like a hobbit or a gnome than a classic dwarf. To better fit the classic dwarf look, they should be a bit taller, reaching at least to the bard's chest. Additionally, the body model should be broader, especially in the legs, which currently don't look strong enough.

Looking at other fantasy universes, we can see that dwarves typically have a similar height range, reaching the chest of an average human, while gnomes and hobbits only come up to the abdomen or slightly above the waist.

Dungeons and Dragons:


World of Warcraft:


Besides their height, dwarves are known for being strong, with big bushy beards, strong voices, and muscular builds. Classic dwarves are shorter than other races, but these attributes prevent them from looking small. The dwarves in AoC appear very short and small, almost like midgets flipping around. Dwarves aren't supposed to be small; they're meant to be stout and hardy. I don't get that impression from AoC's dwarves.

I would prefer a dwarf design similar to those in Warhammer Fantasy:



Or even if they don't look that stout and hardy, at least not that short. In The Lord of the Rings, Gimli's height reaches the chests of Aragorn and Legolas. While he might not look as hardy as Warhammer Fantasy dwarves, he still appears taller than hobbits, which sets him apart and makes him look bigger.






In summary, in my opinion, they should change the model so that:

- They should make them taller, because otherwise they look like hobbits or gnomes.
- The legs look too thin and disproportionate compared to the torso. They should make them stronger and more muscular.
- Overall, they should look more stocky and broad, so that despite being the shortest class, they don't look small but rather like tanks.
- I also think it should be mandatory for them to always have some kind of beard. I believe a dwarf without a beard (at least a Dunir) is not a dwarf.

Perhaps some people like the current concept of dwarves and it fits their vision. In my case, I would prefer a redesign closer to the examples I mentioned. What do you think?

i agree wih this post 1000%

Crolnow

I 100%, they need be a bit taller and a lot more bulky. we want bearded short vikings not gnomes or hobbits

Dygz

Chicago wrote: »

The problem is this is not how they look on game

Dunir are rounder and thicker in A2 than they are in A1. Based on the Bard Demo.
They just aren't taller - which is why I started pushing Margaret and Steven to show the newer models in game about 4 months after A1.
We'll have to see how well the Character Creator sliders help.

Artharion

Crolnow wrote: »

I 100%, they need be a bit taller and a lot more bulky. we want bearded short vikings not gnomes or hobbits

Thanks!

Gaettusk

My favorite part of the Ashes community is the subset of the population who both pretend to be subject-matter experts in MMOs and crow on about how having so many employees from past EQ projects is great for the game. And then they act surprised when the Ashes Dwarves do a jump roll like EQ Dwarves; the people who worked on an EQ IP will obviously have EQ inspiration, just as the bearded female dwarves concept was in development for Everquest 1 and thankfully scrapped for EQ1. Bearded female Dwarves are an abomination—even Tolkien changed his mind on the subject and made them beardless. It's a terrible idea to have bearded women; it ruins the immersion. Did I do the cringeworthy 'my immersion' meme right?

It's akin to the people at home couch coaching the Olympics while scarfing down on Pork Rinds, guzzling Big Red, and commenting on how all the gymnasts tend to be short. The same people would think a running front flip would not be humanly possible. Hint: it is, a 4'5" jacked man would flip just like a Dünir would if he wanted to.

Artharion

Gaettusk wrote: »

My favorite part of the Ashes community is the subset of the population who both pretend to be subject-matter experts in MMOs and crow on about how having so many employees from past EQ projects is great for the game. And then they act surprised when the Ashes Dwarves do a jump roll like EQ Dwarves; the people who worked on an EQ IP will obviously have EQ inspiration, just as the bearded female dwarves concept was in development for Everquest 1 and thankfully scrapped for EQ1. Bearded female Dwarves are an abomination—even Tolkien changed his mind on the subject and made them beardless. It's a terrible idea to have bearded women; it ruins the immersion. Did I do the cringeworthy 'my immersion' meme right?

It's akin to the people at home couch coaching the Olympics while scarfing down on Pork Rinds, guzzling Big Red, and commenting on how all the gymnasts tend to be short. The same people would think a running front flip would not be humanly possible. Hint: it is, a 4'5" jacked man would flip just like a Dünir would if he wanted to.

You know little about human anatomy, but above all, you have lived little in the body of a gymnast and a strong person if you think that a well-built person with a lot of muscle hypertrophy and high percentage of fat, which means you weight a lot, can easily do acrobatics in the air. It is no coincidence that those who do calisthenics or gymnastics are not known for having significant muscle hypertrophy, and they also have a low body fat percentage, something that traditionally dwarves have always had.

Gaettusk

Artharion wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

My favorite part of the Ashes community is the subset of the population who both pretend to be subject-matter experts in MMOs and crow on about how having so many employees from past EQ projects is great for the game. And then they act surprised when the Ashes Dwarves do a jump roll like EQ Dwarves; the people who worked on an EQ IP will obviously have EQ inspiration, just as the bearded female dwarves concept was in development for Everquest 1 and thankfully scrapped for EQ1. Bearded female Dwarves are an abomination—even Tolkien changed his mind on the subject and made them beardless. It's a terrible idea to have bearded women; it ruins the immersion. Did I do the cringeworthy 'my immersion' meme right?

It's akin to the people at home couch coaching the Olympics while scarfing down on Pork Rinds, guzzling Big Red, and commenting on how all the gymnasts tend to be short. The same people would think a running front flip would not be humanly possible. Hint: it is, a 4'5" jacked man would flip just like a Dünir would if he wanted to.

You know little about human anatomy, but above all, you have lived little in the body of a gymnast and a strong person if you think that a well-built person with a lot of muscle hypertrophy and high percentage of fat, which means you weight a lot, can easily do acrobatics in the air. It is no coincidence that those who do calisthenics or gymnastics are not known for having significant muscle hypertrophy, and they also have a low body fat percentage, something that traditionally dwarves have always had.

Artharion wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

My favorite part of the Ashes community is the subset of the population who both pretend to be subject-matter experts in MMOs and crow on about how having so many employees from past EQ projects is great for the game. And then they act surprised when the Ashes Dwarves do a jump roll like EQ Dwarves; the people who worked on an EQ IP will obviously have EQ inspiration, just as the bearded female dwarves concept was in development for Everquest 1 and thankfully scrapped for EQ1. Bearded female Dwarves are an abomination—even Tolkien changed his mind on the subject and made them beardless. It's a terrible idea to have bearded women; it ruins the immersion. Did I do the cringeworthy 'my immersion' meme right?

It's akin to the people at home couch coaching the Olympics while scarfing down on Pork Rinds, guzzling Big Red, and commenting on how all the gymnasts tend to be short. The same people would think a running front flip would not be humanly possible. Hint: it is, a 4'5" jacked man would flip just like a Dünir would if he wanted to.

You know little about human anatomy, but above all, you have lived little in the body of a gymnast and a strong person if you think that a well-built person with a lot of muscle hypertrophy and high percentage of fat, which means you weight a lot, can easily do acrobatics in the air. It is no coincidence that those who do calisthenics or gymnastics are not known for having significant muscle hypertrophy, and they also have a low body fat percentage, something that traditionally dwarves have always had.

Roided-out bodybuilders doing front flips has been an online trope for a long time now, long before Jujimufu made millions of views doing that sort of thing. People who put a basic front flip on a pedestal are really revealing more about themselves than they are convincing others how "impossible" the activity would be.

Day 1 attempts btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iwROvuk7L8

Crolnow

Gaettusk wrote: »

Artharion wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

My favorite part of the Ashes community is the subset of the population who both pretend to be subject-matter experts in MMOs and crow on about how having so many employees from past EQ projects is great for the game. And then they act surprised when the Ashes Dwarves do a jump roll like EQ Dwarves; the people who worked on an EQ IP will obviously have EQ inspiration, just as the bearded female dwarves concept was in development for Everquest 1 and thankfully scrapped for EQ1. Bearded female Dwarves are an abomination—even Tolkien changed his mind on the subject and made them beardless. It's a terrible idea to have bearded women; it ruins the immersion. Did I do the cringeworthy 'my immersion' meme right?

It's akin to the people at home couch coaching the Olympics while scarfing down on Pork Rinds, guzzling Big Red, and commenting on how all the gymnasts tend to be short. The same people would think a running front flip would not be humanly possible. Hint: it is, a 4'5" jacked man would flip just like a Dünir would if he wanted to.

You know little about human anatomy, but above all, you have lived little in the body of a gymnast and a strong person if you think that a well-built person with a lot of muscle hypertrophy and high percentage of fat, which means you weight a lot, can easily do acrobatics in the air. It is no coincidence that those who do calisthenics or gymnastics are not known for having significant muscle hypertrophy, and they also have a low body fat percentage, something that traditionally dwarves have always had.

Artharion wrote: »

Gaettusk wrote: »

My favorite part of the Ashes community is the subset of the population who both pretend to be subject-matter experts in MMOs and crow on about how having so many employees from past EQ projects is great for the game. And then they act surprised when the Ashes Dwarves do a jump roll like EQ Dwarves; the people who worked on an EQ IP will obviously have EQ inspiration, just as the bearded female dwarves concept was in development for Everquest 1 and thankfully scrapped for EQ1. Bearded female Dwarves are an abomination—even Tolkien changed his mind on the subject and made them beardless. It's a terrible idea to have bearded women; it ruins the immersion. Did I do the cringeworthy 'my immersion' meme right?

It's akin to the people at home couch coaching the Olympics while scarfing down on Pork Rinds, guzzling Big Red, and commenting on how all the gymnasts tend to be short. The same people would think a running front flip would not be humanly possible. Hint: it is, a 4'5" jacked man would flip just like a Dünir would if he wanted to.

You know little about human anatomy, but above all, you have lived little in the body of a gymnast and a strong person if you think that a well-built person with a lot of muscle hypertrophy and high percentage of fat, which means you weight a lot, can easily do acrobatics in the air. It is no coincidence that those who do calisthenics or gymnastics are not known for having significant muscle hypertrophy, and they also have a low body fat percentage, something that traditionally dwarves have always had.

Roided-out bodybuilders doing front flips has been an online trope for a long time now, long before Jujimufu made millions of views doing that sort of thing. People who put a basic front flip on a pedestal are really revealing more about themselves than they are convincing others how "impossible" the activity would be.

Day 1 attempts btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iwROvuk7L8

Now find a fat dwarf doin a flip

Gaettusk

Crolnow wrote: »

Now find a fat dwarf doin a flip

Sure, find a "fat" character model for a playable Dwarf in an MMO(hint: there are none, closest is LOTRO and they just have untoned arms, not fat), and then we can have a chat about how a pound of fat weighs the same as a pound of muscle(bodybuilding version of steel vs feather btw), and after that I can just link gymnasts doing flips in fat suits.🤣

Enjoy watching Eddie Hall do a backflip at almost 400 lbs while you fail to find fat playable Dwarf in MMOs

https://youtu.be/huzzUtkmZ2I?si=I1e_3EQu57Xyjvgb&t=20

Liniker

yall really need to find a game to play..

funny thing is, this whole thread wouldnt even exist if OP realized we can actually make taller dunirs, more chunky legs and all and even fat dunirs using the character creator lol

Dolyem

Personally I think dwarves should almost be squares when it comes to their proportions.
Super wide shoulders, wide as a humans or renkai orcs. Height should be just slightly longer than the width of their own shoulders.
Just add muscles, bushy eyebrows, a big nose, and massive beards. Perfect block of dwarf.

Dygz

Crolnow wrote: »

Now find a fat dwarf doin a flip

Might have to find a fat dwarf who wields magic first.

Biscuit

I also agree that the dwarf needs to be a tad taller and maybe more stocky. Also agree that dwarfs DO NOT FLIP !. i'm a dwarven fan and will be playing a dwarf in A2. I hope we can make them bigger in the character creator.