When my friends and I jumped in to support this game, we saw some signs and made some assumptions about what type of game it was going to be.
We're not the simplistic type that just go 'yeah! give us all the good things and none of the bad things!' because games don't work like that. They gotta make choices about implementation. And some of those choices will upset some people because they "weren't clear about the intentions from the start".
So I care if Ashes succeeds for the sake of the devs and for the sake of all the people who want to play this very specific implementation, but I barely want to, and the way they handle things lately annoys me/us immensely.
You gotta take into account the number of people who have been 'burned' by things Intrepid brought to the table later and just don't care anymore. Some of us still want to help, but that only goes so far.
None of what you have said, ever, made sense.
You are a crystal clear example of people with ego and time to spare, both in abundance.
And some people in this category turn hostile as soon as something that (their mind falsesly perceives as wrong) Intrepid does. That goes against their, weird I would add, views.
Yall forget that you are just potential customers. You are not advisers, you are not devs and you barely make for people with good feedback. Know your place.
Time and again I have seen topics and titles that are counter productive. Barely anyone discusses interesting ideas related to gameplay and design (within the core pillars), it's just demands and condemnations.
Cant wait for closed A2 forum sections.
I so don't see how closed A2 forums sections helps since I'd just be in those too?
But once again I will remind you, in the vain hope it does something...
I am here because a group of people 'sent me here', to be the voice for them. So yes, I babble on because I have the time to spare, and the 'ego', in abundance.
That's the 'job'.
This, therefore, is my place. You can continue to go 'no one cares about anything that any of this group of people has to say' until the Verran cows come home, but I'm gonna do what I've been asked to do.
Nobody sent you here.
There is no group. You dont perform a task. You kill time.
What specifically does your group feel so misled/disappointed about and why do you feel like it won't change as a part of Intrepid's attempt at meeting the original goals/expectations set?
Nobody sent you here.
There is no group. You dont perform a task. You kill time.
George your a troll lol. Azherae's group members have already made themselves known and literally post on like every dev topic thread.
(a)Azherae
What specifically does your group feel so misled/disappointed about and why do you feel like it won't change as a part of Intrepid's attempt at meeting the original goals/expectations set?
Nothing useful, nothing fair.
I'd say that in every case that comes to mind quickly, that was 'our fault', and therefore not worth going into in detail, certainly not in this thread.
I want Ashes to be a good game that I don't particularly like. And better yet for me, I got the beginnings of a game that I might like recently/coming up. Maybe those two things are connected. You and I have discussed this before though, probably in that Micro vs Macro thread.
Our problem with Intrepid boils down to 'our perspective on how things should be planned/the order in which development should obviously be done' that isn't always happening. It's the nerdy nitpicks of a few programmers/designers wondering why TL got Augments before Ashes.
We believe that Intrepid will get there eventually, hopefully before the usual MMO-rot lifecycle consumes Throne and Liberty so we have somewhere to go to if that one follows the usual path.
The only question I'd say everyone should think on is this: If Intrepid tells you that they will have 'a great crafting system', what makes it any different from any other game that says this?
In order to believe that Intrepid will succeed without evidence while so many other devs struggle or put out weaksauce/garbage, requires a type of blind faith we don't have.
(you can substitute literally any of the things we haven't seen yet for 'crafting system')
You and I have discussed this before though, probably in that Micro vs Macro thread.
Oh thats right lol, was wondering why I felt deja vu there for a sec.
So those nerdy nitpicks are enough to make you not want to play the game entirely? Seems like if its that much of a nitpick then you actually do like the game or at least more than other ones on the market. But, maybe im forgeting the context from our other convo you referenced so ill have to relook that over.
You and I have discussed this before though, probably in that Micro vs Macro thread.
Oh thats right lol, was wondering why I felt deja vu there for a sec.
So those nerdy nitpicks are enough to make you not want to play the game entirely? Seems like if its that much of a nitpick then you actually do like the game or at least more than other ones on the market. But, maybe im forgeting the context from our other convo you referenced so ill have to relook that over.
No, that's separate. I'll be clearer, but ofc therefore won't also be 'measured'...
Used to like the Combat Direction, now think it sucks.
Used to believe there was gonna be some dynamism and Actiony Combat, now don't believe in that AND hate the Mass PvP style being favored (as opposed to the ones from before)
Used to believe the econ/caravan systems would be really fun, now there is not a Glint of Hope for that.
Used to think PvE and PvP were going to coexist proper, but it's Open Seas (on) that too.
Used to believe that Freeholds were gonna be amazing even when shared, but nah.
Used to believe Corruption would manage to make certain things not a shitshow, no longer think that.
Used to expect good build dynamism, stats, itemization, might still get it but who cares, could just play a close equivalent.
Used to believe that when Intrepid showed off something and Steven went into his rants of how amazing and special and unique it was, it wasn't just because Steven has only played jank MMOs OR that he was trying to upsell simple features to people who did, now try to have no opinion on that and just move on.
Blah blah.
Someone offers you two competing products, one with the lesser flaws for your preferences, wins, simple capitalism.
gonna be real, i think this is a strange question.
just because someone feels negatively about the direction of the game (which much of that could possibly be attributed to the devs) doesn't mean they want it to fail.
usually if someone is hitting up a game's forum and is able to compose structured paragraphs about something they feel is underperforming as it stands currently, they feel that disappointment BECAUSE they wanted it to succeed and now feel "let down".
When my friends and I jumped in to support this game, we saw some signs and made some assumptions about what type of game it was going to be.
We're not the simplistic type that just go 'yeah! give us all the good things and none of the bad things!' because games don't work like that. They gotta make choices about implementation. And some of those choices will upset some people because they "weren't clear about the intentions from the start".
So I care if Ashes succeeds for the sake of the devs and for the sake of all the people who want to play this very specific implementation, but I barely want to, and the way they handle things lately annoys me/us immensely.
You gotta take into account the number of people who have been 'burned' by things Intrepid brought to the table later and just don't care anymore. Some of us still want to help, but that only goes so far.
None of what you have said, ever, made sense.
You are a crystal clear example of people with ego and time to spare, both in abundance.
And some people in this category turn hostile as soon as something that (their mind falsesly perceives as wrong) Intrepid does. That goes against their, weird I would add, views.
Yall forget that you are just potential customers. You are not advisers, you are not devs and you barely make for people with good feedback. Know your place.
Time and again I have seen topics and titles that are counter productive. Barely anyone discusses interesting ideas related to gameplay and design (within the core pillars), it's just demands and condemnations.
Cant wait for closed A2 forum sections.
I so don't see how closed A2 forums sections helps since I'd just be in those too?
But once again I will remind you, in the vain hope it does something...
I am here because a group of people 'sent me here', to be the voice for them. So yes, I babble on because I have the time to spare, and the 'ego', in abundance.
That's the 'job'.
This, therefore, is my place. You can continue to go 'no one cares about anything that any of this group of people has to say' until the Verran cows come home, but I'm gonna do what I've been asked to do.
Nobody sent you here.
There is no group. You dont perform a task. You kill time.
This is probably the trolliest I have ever seen you.
Also, if you can't make sense of what Azherae has said, that's on you.
Used to like the Combat Direction, now think it sucks.
Used to believe there was gonna be some dynamism and Actiony Combat, now don't believe in that AND hate the Mass PvP style being favored (as opposed to the ones from before)
Used to believe the econ/caravan systems would be really fun, now there is not a Glint of Hope for that.
Used to think PvE and PvP were going to coexist proper, but it's Open Seas (on) that too.
Used to believe that Freeholds were gonna be amazing even when shared, but nah.
Used to believe Corruption would manage to make certain things not a shitshow, no longer think that.
Used to expect good build dynamism, stats, itemization, might still get it but who cares, could just play a close equivalent.
Used to believe that when Intrepid showed off something and Steven went into his rants of how amazing and special and unique it was, it wasn't just because Steven has only played jank MMOs OR that he was trying to upsell simple features to people who did, now try to have no opinion on that and just move on.
Blah blah.
Someone offers you two competing products, one with the lesser flaws for your preferences, wins, simple capitalism.
Ah gotchya, thanks for explaining. I mean, most that stuff I feel like is just a part of being pre-apha 2. I feel like the intent is in the right place, and there is still a lot of time for feedback and iteration to better meet expectations.
But maybe in a very hyper-specific way that you like things to be in terms of the game as a whole, you feel like they are unable to accomplish that regardless without overhauling everything (which is probably why you are saying it is nitpicky), but I guess I don't understand why you feel like you could get such better experiences elsewhere if it really comes down to the minute details. Where are all these better games at? I dunno maybe my preferences are different but there isn't really much out there that really appeals to me in the current mmo space, yet the intent communicated by Intrepid does for various reasons, so im just kind of trusting the process because (at this point from my limited perspective and info) there is still a path to a game I would potentially enjoy even if its not my perfect ideal game.
Used to like the Combat Direction, now think it sucks.
Used to believe there was gonna be some dynamism and Actiony Combat, now don't believe in that AND hate the Mass PvP style being favored (as opposed to the ones from before)
Used to believe the econ/caravan systems would be really fun, now there is not a Glint of Hope for that.
Used to think PvE and PvP were going to coexist proper, but it's Open Seas (on) that too.
Used to believe that Freeholds were gonna be amazing even when shared, but nah.
Used to believe Corruption would manage to make certain things not a shitshow, no longer think that.
Used to expect good build dynamism, stats, itemization, might still get it but who cares, could just play a close equivalent.
Used to believe that when Intrepid showed off something and Steven went into his rants of how amazing and special and unique it was, it wasn't just because Steven has only played jank MMOs OR that he was trying to upsell simple features to people who did, now try to have no opinion on that and just move on.
Blah blah.
Someone offers you two competing products, one with the lesser flaws for your preferences, wins, simple capitalism.
Ah gotchya, thanks for explaining. I mean, most that stuff I feel like is just a part of being pre-apha 2. I feel like the intent is in the right place, and there is still a lot of time for feedback and iteration to better meet expectations.
But maybe in a very hyper-specific way that you like things to be in terms of the game as a whole, you feel like they are unable to accomplish that regardless without overhauling everything (which is probably why you are saying it is nitpicky), but I guess I don't understand why you feel like you could get such better experiences elsewhere if it really comes down to the minute details. Where are all these better games at? I dunno maybe my preferences are different but there isn't really much out there that really appeals to me in the current mmo space, yet the intent communicated by Intrepid does for various reasons, so im just kind of trusting the process because (at this point from my limited perspective and info) there is still a path to a game I would potentially enjoy even if its not my perfect ideal game.
Maybe I misrepresented it due to 'trying to not add to negativity'.
Until now, there hasn't been much. I want to play 'FFXI+L2 merged into greatness'.
Ashes appeared to be that, and then some. It turned out that they might not know how to do the 'then some'. TL is releasing without most of the 'then some'. But a lot of it's coming.
Nearly every reason a person would play Ashes over TL right now is something that we either don't like, don't think they can pull off, or honestly believe will be implemented in a way that ruins Ashes itself.
So, I give feedback to Intrepid, and wait a few more weeks for TL.
Maybe I misrepresented it due to 'trying to not add to negativity'.
Until now, there hasn't been much. I want to play 'FFXI+L2 merged into greatness'.
Ashes appeared to be that, and then some. It turned out that they might not know how to do the 'then some'. TL is releasing without most of the 'then some'. But a lot of it's coming.
Nearly every reason a person would play Ashes over TL right now is something that we either don't like, don't think they can pull off, or honestly believe will be implemented in a way that ruins Ashes itself.
So, I give feedback to Intrepid, and wait a few more weeks for TL.
I don't believe anybody that is here on these forums reading and writing posts wants this game to fail. Maybe some people are negative by nature
Most likely, but imagine if you where new and came here to check out the game. After reading these threads would you want to play it? After watching asmongold or narc? Sure does not paint a pretty picture.
Content creators attract supporters by being as they are. Like news. Positive news with cats and birthdays probably don't attract viewers. They have to be sensationalists and with click bait thumbnail image.
And people like debates. Threads where everyone agrees go down fast.
It is better when these debates are associated with game features rather than what we have now.
We have no interesting threads.
At least Alpha 2 finally starts.
Then people will talk about the game features again and what PvX means.
Simple question. Do you want Ashes to succeed, or fail?
That's not the question you need to be asking. If people didn't want the game to succeed they wouldn't be in these forums.
Right... People are in these forums wishing the best on a game they admit dont like or suits their needs, yet bash every decision made by the studio.
That's not normal behaviour.
It's not normal spending that many hours in a product that you wont use.
I am not trolling. It's not normal behaviour claiming that you dont like the game, you are here to help the Devs, wishing all the best to the Devs saying you "want the games success" but doubting its creator does.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't see Asmongold or Narc posting in these Forums. I think they are fairly neutral about whether Ashes succeeds or fails.
I care more about the facts than about other people's emotional responses to the facts.
We're here to share our perspectives, but I either like a feature or don't like a feature based on its own merits; not based on whether other people love or hate the feature.
It's just interesting to learn about different perspectives and anticipate how all of the disparate playstyles will enjoy playing on the same server type.
Can't please all of the people all of the time.
Expect plenty of negativity on the Internet.
That being said...
I want Ashes to be successful - even though it's not a game I'm interested in playing.
Don’t know about whether people want it to succeed or fail, but if I were the rich guy developing this game I wouldn’t have the patience to deal with people. I’d have refunded everyone but those who’ve earned the opportunity to test and shut down the showcases, open Alphas, etc. and build the game until it’s finished without all of the noise and drama. Juice just doesn’t seem to be worth the squeeze. Perhaps the goal was to develop the game with a community, but to me so far that appears to be their biggest mistake.
I probably would have developed and published a few smaller scale yet similar games before AoC due to the scope of this project. At least those other projects would either generate the necessary revenue to build AoC without having to go too deep into your own pocket, or signal you aren’t ready for a large project. But I get it why Steven wanted to do this. He wanted to build a game he wanted to play. Most developers aren’t doing that anymore.
For the development team I would be much more selective about who tests the game, and I’d make sure the testers intended to simulate A-holes are paid employees. Can’t afford to develop a game with amateur A-holes. And by A-hole I more or less mean a sub team that plays devil’s advocate on the project and is in charge of testing to break the game so that it’s built to be more bulletproof.
The entire project would be under NDA until release. Build it first, then market it. No early access. No Alpha/Beta keys. No cosmetics. Nothing. Just a game when it’s ready and worth standing on its own to generate revenue without any of the perceived monetization gimmicks. Merchandise like hats, t-shirts, collectible models, art books, etc would be the only other thing I’d sell, and I’d make them available as long as they are popular instead of a limited release to prevent the claims of FOMO.
Surely want it to succeed, which earned me a lot of downvotes on Reddit. Saying that the signs that these boxes would be delivered differently at different times than projected at this point has been very much a predictable outcome.
But instead people seem hell bend on getting emotionally invested in stuff that is marked as "subject to change" and to be taken with a grain of salt as indicated by Intrepids track record of delivery, recreating the pathetic BS dynamic of a teenie girl in relationship with an "a**hole", who she passionately refuses to leave.
The development is going fine, the development speed is illusive, so sit back and wait for the things they actually deliver because those (IMO) seem pretty good indicating a great end product whenever its finished. From where I stand projections on amount of content and time of delivery are nothing more than an inside joke with the fine difference that for Ashes there is an actual end goal compared to for example Star Citizen. And if not and the game fails - I will at least have learned a bunch about game development. For the optional price of 250$ I decided to pay.
Don’t know about whether people want it to succeed or fail, but if I were the rich guy developing this game I wouldn’t have the patience to deal with people. I’d have refunded everyone but those who’ve earned the opportunity to test and shut down the showcases, open Alphas, etc. and build the game until it’s finished without all of the noise and drama. Juice just doesn’t seem to be worth the squeeze. Perhaps the goal was to develop the game with a community, but to me so far that appears to be their biggest mistake.
I probably would have developed and published a few smaller scale yet similar games before AoC due to the scope of this project. At least those other projects would either generate the necessary revenue to build AoC without having to go too deep into your own pocket, or signal you aren’t ready for a large project. But I get it why Steven wanted to do this. He wanted to build a game he wanted to play. Most developers aren’t doing that anymore.
For the development team I would be much more selective about who tests the game, and I’d make sure the testers intended to simulate A-holes are paid employees. Can’t afford to develop a game with amateur A-holes. And by A-hole I more or less mean a sub team that plays devil’s advocate on the project and is in charge of testing to break the game so that it’s built to be more bulletproof.
The entire project would be under NDA until release. Build it first, then market it. No early access. No Alpha/Beta keys. No cosmetics. Nothing. Just a game when it’s ready and worth standing on its own to generate revenue without any of the perceived monetization gimmicks. Merchandise like hats, t-shirts, collectible models, art books, etc would be the only other thing I’d sell, and I’d make them available as long as they are popular instead of a limited release to prevent the claims of FOMO.
They are very diplomatic. I dont think there is any damaged caused to them nor do they care for the outrage or irrelevant feedback. They just say "we welcome...." and move on.
Personally I'd like the forum to make room for people interested in mmos and people that understand the core design.
One by one everyone that has invested themselves socially and emotially in the media, and have created a delusion that they direct the Devs may leave this space for actual discussions relating to the game, rather than dictating the business model of the studio.
My takeaway from the AMA was that Steven sees a redeveloping on combat classes and weapons and that's good news.
The whole thing about the keys doesnt affect serious testers.
Either they have access alrdy or are happy for the chance to get in late.
1
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Surely want it to succeed, which earned me a lot of downvotes on Reddit. Saying that the signs that these boxes would be delivered differently at different times than projected at this point has been very much a predictable outcome.
But instead people seem hell bend on getting emotionally invested in stuff that is marked as "subject to change" and to be taken with a grain of salt as indicated by Intrepids track record of delivery, recreating the pathetic BS dynamic of a teenie girl in relationship with an "a**hole", who she passionately refuses to leave.
The development is going fine, the development speed is illusive, so sit back and wait for the things they actually deliver because those (IMO) seem pretty good indicating a great end product whenever its finished. From where I stand projections on amount of content and time of delivery are nothing more than an inside joke with the fine difference that for Ashes there is an actual end goal compared to for example Star Citizen. And if not and the game fails - I will at least have learned a bunch about game development. For the optional price of 250$ I decided to pay.
Well said. Thank you for your statement.
1
HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I want intrepid to succeed.
But I want them to stop being so stupid.
The world is beautiful whenever you're here. And all the emptiness inside disappears.
Are you for Ashes succeeding or failing. I ask this because by reading some of these threads makes me think you all want it to fail. Can you not see the negativity you are generating? Its understandable if you have questions. But to beat to death, over and over, on these forums, on reddit, on Reactions from content creators. Can you not see the negativity you are generating? Say your piece and move on, or am I to assume you guys want to tank Ashes. Lots of people still have hope, and I think you guys just want to ruin it for everyone because your feelings are out of control.
I think just on the general idea of feedback, we have to be accepting of positive and negative feedback; you can't just gatekeep one. I find the tone of this post borderline white-knight just in the defensive nature of your point of view. You're invested into opposing the views that oppose yours. I thought you wanted people to make their point and move on?
For what it's worth, I think it's perfectly fine for you to discuss robustly your point, and that should be the case for all sides. If people agree or disagree they'll make their point. What I don't like is people deciding for themselves and the community what should and shouldn't be discussed. If something warrants discussion you'll see activity and the repercussions of the AMA definitely show that it's a hot topic.
I think the fact that after a huge amount of backlash, Intrepid responded by improving the key packages and extending it to Beta as well goes to show:
1. They accept that they made the wrong move, at least in some regards.
2. They accept that the community are justified in being disappointed.
Back in the day Intrepid has received some general negativity from the MMO community with the monthly cosmetics and while it was controversial, generally people didn't get too bothered from within the Ashes community.
This is different though because they've managed to rile up their own community. I don't personally care too much for the date push backs up to now, nor the phased release of Alpha 2 (given i'm not a financial backer - i'll wait on release) - I do think that given how long people have already waited - is it really all that surprising that things get gradually delayed? I do think Intrepid have gotten better with expectation management but they've missed the mark a bit here.
Open development is continuing to be a blessing and a curse - but I think that Intrepid need to just get their heads down and crack on. The game is in my opinion, 3 years out~ and what happens in August 2024 isn't really going to have any notable long term detriment. I think Alpha 2 will make or break that though.
obviously ,.... if someone gets screwed they are pissed .... and if they vent here ... why not ?
i got screwed too ... payed 250 to be in the same queue with betá key holders who can upgrade now for 25/50$ and those new key holders who paid even less ... this will be a shit show bc aphla 2 backers are literally not earlier in the test enviroment than anybody else .... this is fked up
obviously if they can host servers for 100k+ people of course im all for it .... but everyone who jumps to their defends feels the need to point out how small and indepentend and unexperienced they are ... is anybody expecting any other than a queue ? ... will believe i get access when im actually in that buggy mess of a game
all i wanted is to test what they have early .... and now i wont get in earlier ... thats the definition of getting screwed big time .... so im disappointed that i had to wait just as long as anybody else and was only paying twice as much lol ...
0
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
obviously ,.... if someone gets screwed they are pissed .... and if they vent here ... why not ?
i got screwed too ... payed 250 to be in the same queue with betá key holders who can upgrade now for 25/50$ and those new key holders who paid even less ... this will be a shit show bc aphla 2 backers are literally not earlier in the test enviroment than anybody else .... this is fked up
obviously if they can host servers for 100k+ people of course im all for it .... but everyone who jumps to their defends feels the need to point out how small and indepentend and unexperienced they are ... is anybody expecting any other than a queue ? ... will believe i get access when im actually in that buggy mess of a game
all i wanted is to test what they have early .... and now i wont get in earlier ... thats the definition of getting screwed big time .... so im disappointed that i had to wait just as long as anybody else and was only paying twice as much lol ...
i knew that someone would make a case about what else was in the pack ..... totally ignoring what i wrote ....
the pitch was that there wont be another way to get access to alpha2 if you dont buy this package ,,,... so whatever else was in that package is irrelevant to make the case ...
obviously the 250$ package has other stuff in it ... but obviously you can buy the key now without the other stuff ... i already send an email to our institute of "costumer protection" they will take a look at this ...
edit: im actually not pissed .... just disapointed
edit: i maybe missunderstood things and there is a possibilty that everybody else didnt think of these packs as the only way to get into alpha 2 ... but i got that impression back then ... and now i obviously fell bad bc it is not like i thought ... i feel the need to check if the impression i got actually was real or not ... and if it was actually said that these packs are the only way to get access i feel betrayed now
Not sure if you remember posting this but you rebutted yourself.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
*meh*
Steven is a gamer first and foremost.
He wants to be as transparent as possible and tweak his design to accomdate fans during development as much as possible without compromising the core Pillars.
*meh*
Steven is a gamer first and foremost.
He wants to be as transparent as possible and tweak his design to accomdate fans during development as much as possible without compromising the core Pillars.
Succeed, i see no personal or general benefit in it's failure, even tho it's success isn't currently all that relevant for me either, other than being a possibly interesting non-p2w western LineArcheAge2+ experience in my eyes and the possible extra visibility of such experience concept to become more widespread to inspire even more games in the future.
If you'd ask me if i think it will succeed, i would say that the chances that it will are easily over 80% {As long as it's released by late 2027 at max [the percentage would be dramaticaly reduced when reaching the 10 year after kickstarter mark (over a decade of development hell is a big stigma on Star Citizen's and Throne and Liberty's back for a reason)]} even tho such percentage might have diminished very slightly recently, i don't really care about the "positivity" or "negativity" status of the community as long as it's not directly affecting the game's intended core pillars.
*meh*
Steven is a gamer first and foremost.
He wants to be as transparent as possible and tweak his design to accomdate fans during development as much as possible without compromising the core Pillars.
From where I stand projections on amount of content and time of delivery are nothing more than an inside joke with the fine difference that for Ashes there is an actual end goal compared to for example Star Citizen.
Well said. Thank you for your statement.
Star citizen is the best example of anybody still believing they are "developing in a good speed"
Star citizen .. infamous for taking forever .....
kickstartet in 2012 ... and the persistens universe was released in 2015 ... so three years after the kickstarter...
this mmorpg here is 8 years in developement and we still wait on the first time anybody others than the A1 testers 3 years ago get into the game ... this is even WAYYYYYY slower than star citizen ...
additionally .... ill spam my frustration as many times as i want ... since i feel mistreated big time ...
Comments
Nobody sent you here.
There is no group. You dont perform a task. You kill time.
George your a troll lol. Azherae's group members have already made themselves known and literally post on like every dev topic thread.
@Azherae
What specifically does your group feel so misled/disappointed about and why do you feel like it won't change as a part of Intrepid's attempt at meeting the original goals/expectations set?
Nothing useful, nothing fair.
I'd say that in every case that comes to mind quickly, that was 'our fault', and therefore not worth going into in detail, certainly not in this thread.
I want Ashes to be a good game that I don't particularly like. And better yet for me, I got the beginnings of a game that I might like recently/coming up. Maybe those two things are connected. You and I have discussed this before though, probably in that Micro vs Macro thread.
Our problem with Intrepid boils down to 'our perspective on how things should be planned/the order in which development should obviously be done' that isn't always happening. It's the nerdy nitpicks of a few programmers/designers wondering why TL got Augments before Ashes.
We believe that Intrepid will get there eventually, hopefully before the usual MMO-rot lifecycle consumes Throne and Liberty so we have somewhere to go to if that one follows the usual path.
The only question I'd say everyone should think on is this:
If Intrepid tells you that they will have 'a great crafting system', what makes it any different from any other game that says this?
In order to believe that Intrepid will succeed without evidence while so many other devs struggle or put out weaksauce/garbage, requires a type of blind faith we don't have.
(you can substitute literally any of the things we haven't seen yet for 'crafting system')
Oh thats right lol, was wondering why I felt deja vu there for a sec.
So those nerdy nitpicks are enough to make you not want to play the game entirely? Seems like if its that much of a nitpick then you actually do like the game or at least more than other ones on the market. But, maybe im forgeting the context from our other convo you referenced so ill have to relook that over.
No, that's separate. I'll be clearer, but ofc therefore won't also be 'measured'...
Used to like the Combat Direction, now think it sucks.
Used to believe there was gonna be some dynamism and Actiony Combat, now don't believe in that AND hate the Mass PvP style being favored (as opposed to the ones from before)
Used to believe the econ/caravan systems would be really fun, now there is not a Glint of Hope for that.
Used to think PvE and PvP were going to coexist proper, but it's Open Seas (on) that too.
Used to believe that Freeholds were gonna be amazing even when shared, but nah.
Used to believe Corruption would manage to make certain things not a shitshow, no longer think that.
Used to expect good build dynamism, stats, itemization, might still get it but who cares, could just play a close equivalent.
Used to believe that when Intrepid showed off something and Steven went into his rants of how amazing and special and unique it was, it wasn't just because Steven has only played jank MMOs OR that he was trying to upsell simple features to people who did, now try to have no opinion on that and just move on.
Blah blah.
Someone offers you two competing products, one with the lesser flaws for your preferences, wins, simple capitalism.
just because someone feels negatively about the direction of the game (which much of that could possibly be attributed to the devs) doesn't mean they want it to fail.
usually if someone is hitting up a game's forum and is able to compose structured paragraphs about something they feel is underperforming as it stands currently, they feel that disappointment BECAUSE they wanted it to succeed and now feel "let down".
This is probably the trolliest I have ever seen you.
Also, if you can't make sense of what Azherae has said, that's on you.
Ah gotchya, thanks for explaining. I mean, most that stuff I feel like is just a part of being pre-apha 2. I feel like the intent is in the right place, and there is still a lot of time for feedback and iteration to better meet expectations.
But maybe in a very hyper-specific way that you like things to be in terms of the game as a whole, you feel like they are unable to accomplish that regardless without overhauling everything (which is probably why you are saying it is nitpicky), but I guess I don't understand why you feel like you could get such better experiences elsewhere if it really comes down to the minute details. Where are all these better games at? I dunno maybe my preferences are different but there isn't really much out there that really appeals to me in the current mmo space, yet the intent communicated by Intrepid does for various reasons, so im just kind of trusting the process because (at this point from my limited perspective and info) there is still a path to a game I would potentially enjoy even if its not my perfect ideal game.
Maybe I misrepresented it due to 'trying to not add to negativity'.
Until now, there hasn't been much. I want to play 'FFXI+L2 merged into greatness'.
Ashes appeared to be that, and then some. It turned out that they might not know how to do the 'then some'. TL is releasing without most of the 'then some'. But a lot of it's coming.
Nearly every reason a person would play Ashes over TL right now is something that we either don't like, don't think they can pull off, or honestly believe will be implemented in a way that ruins Ashes itself.
So, I give feedback to Intrepid, and wait a few more weeks for TL.
Ah, understood
That's not the question you need to be asking. If people didn't want the game to succeed they wouldn't be in these forums.
Content creators attract supporters by being as they are. Like news. Positive news with cats and birthdays probably don't attract viewers. They have to be sensationalists and with click bait thumbnail image.
And people like debates. Threads where everyone agrees go down fast.
It is better when these debates are associated with game features rather than what we have now.
We have no interesting threads.
At least Alpha 2 finally starts.
Then people will talk about the game features again and what PvX means.
Right... People are in these forums wishing the best on a game they admit dont like or suits their needs, yet bash every decision made by the studio.
That's not normal behaviour.
It's not normal spending that many hours in a product that you wont use.
I am not trolling. It's not normal behaviour claiming that you dont like the game, you are here to help the Devs, wishing all the best to the Devs saying you "want the games success" but doubting its creator does.
I care more about the facts than about other people's emotional responses to the facts.
We're here to share our perspectives, but I either like a feature or don't like a feature based on its own merits; not based on whether other people love or hate the feature.
It's just interesting to learn about different perspectives and anticipate how all of the disparate playstyles will enjoy playing on the same server type.
Can't please all of the people all of the time.
Expect plenty of negativity on the Internet.
That being said...
I want Ashes to be successful - even though it's not a game I'm interested in playing.
I probably would have developed and published a few smaller scale yet similar games before AoC due to the scope of this project. At least those other projects would either generate the necessary revenue to build AoC without having to go too deep into your own pocket, or signal you aren’t ready for a large project. But I get it why Steven wanted to do this. He wanted to build a game he wanted to play. Most developers aren’t doing that anymore.
For the development team I would be much more selective about who tests the game, and I’d make sure the testers intended to simulate A-holes are paid employees. Can’t afford to develop a game with amateur A-holes. And by A-hole I more or less mean a sub team that plays devil’s advocate on the project and is in charge of testing to break the game so that it’s built to be more bulletproof.
The entire project would be under NDA until release. Build it first, then market it. No early access. No Alpha/Beta keys. No cosmetics. Nothing. Just a game when it’s ready and worth standing on its own to generate revenue without any of the perceived monetization gimmicks. Merchandise like hats, t-shirts, collectible models, art books, etc would be the only other thing I’d sell, and I’d make them available as long as they are popular instead of a limited release to prevent the claims of FOMO.
But instead people seem hell bend on getting emotionally invested in stuff that is marked as "subject to change" and to be taken with a grain of salt as indicated by Intrepids track record of delivery, recreating the pathetic BS dynamic of a teenie girl in relationship with an "a**hole", who she passionately refuses to leave.
The development is going fine, the development speed is illusive, so sit back and wait for the things they actually deliver because those (IMO) seem pretty good indicating a great end product whenever its finished. From where I stand projections on amount of content and time of delivery are nothing more than an inside joke with the fine difference that for Ashes there is an actual end goal compared to for example Star Citizen. And if not and the game fails - I will at least have learned a bunch about game development. For the optional price of 250$ I decided to pay.
They are very diplomatic. I dont think there is any damaged caused to them nor do they care for the outrage or irrelevant feedback. They just say "we welcome...." and move on.
Personally I'd like the forum to make room for people interested in mmos and people that understand the core design.
One by one everyone that has invested themselves socially and emotially in the media, and have created a delusion that they direct the Devs may leave this space for actual discussions relating to the game, rather than dictating the business model of the studio.
My takeaway from the AMA was that Steven sees a redeveloping on combat classes and weapons and that's good news.
The whole thing about the keys doesnt affect serious testers.
Either they have access alrdy or are happy for the chance to get in late.
Well said. Thank you for your statement.
But I want them to stop being so stupid.
For what it's worth, I think it's perfectly fine for you to discuss robustly your point, and that should be the case for all sides. If people agree or disagree they'll make their point. What I don't like is people deciding for themselves and the community what should and shouldn't be discussed. If something warrants discussion you'll see activity and the repercussions of the AMA definitely show that it's a hot topic.
I think the fact that after a huge amount of backlash, Intrepid responded by improving the key packages and extending it to Beta as well goes to show:
1. They accept that they made the wrong move, at least in some regards.
2. They accept that the community are justified in being disappointed.
Back in the day Intrepid has received some general negativity from the MMO community with the monthly cosmetics and while it was controversial, generally people didn't get too bothered from within the Ashes community.
This is different though because they've managed to rile up their own community. I don't personally care too much for the date push backs up to now, nor the phased release of Alpha 2 (given i'm not a financial backer - i'll wait on release) - I do think that given how long people have already waited - is it really all that surprising that things get gradually delayed? I do think Intrepid have gotten better with expectation management but they've missed the mark a bit here.
Open development is continuing to be a blessing and a curse - but I think that Intrepid need to just get their heads down and crack on. The game is in my opinion, 3 years out~ and what happens in August 2024 isn't really going to have any notable long term detriment. I think Alpha 2 will make or break that though.
i got screwed too ... payed 250 to be in the same queue with betá key holders who can upgrade now for 25/50$ and those new key holders who paid even less ... this will be a shit show bc aphla 2 backers are literally not earlier in the test enviroment than anybody else .... this is fked up
obviously if they can host servers for 100k+ people of course im all for it .... but everyone who jumps to their defends feels the need to point out how small and indepentend and unexperienced they are ... is anybody expecting any other than a queue ? ... will believe i get access when im actually in that buggy mess of a game
all i wanted is to test what they have early .... and now i wont get in earlier ... thats the definition of getting screwed big time .... so im disappointed that i had to wait just as long as anybody else and was only paying twice as much lol ...
Not sure if you remember posting this but you rebutted yourself.
Steven is a gamer first and foremost.
He wants to be as transparent as possible and tweak his design to accomdate fans during development as much as possible without compromising the core Pillars.
Everything is subject to change.
Yes, exactly.
If you'd ask me if i think it will succeed, i would say that the chances that it will are easily over 80% {As long as it's released by late 2027 at max [the percentage would be dramaticaly reduced when reaching the 10 year after kickstarter mark (over a decade of development hell is a big stigma on Star Citizen's and Throne and Liberty's back for a reason)]} even tho such percentage might have diminished very slightly recently, i don't really care about the "positivity" or "negativity" status of the community as long as it's not directly affecting the game's intended core pillars.
Aren't we all sinners?
he is a salesman in disguise lol ....
Star citizen is the best example of anybody still believing they are "developing in a good speed"
Star citizen .. infamous for taking forever .....
kickstartet in 2012 ... and the persistens universe was released in 2015 ... so three years after the kickstarter...
this mmorpg here is 8 years in developement and we still wait on the first time anybody others than the A1 testers 3 years ago get into the game ... this is even WAYYYYYY slower than star citizen ...
additionally .... ill spam my frustration as many times as i want ... since i feel mistreated big time ...