This dragon fight looked awesome, you could feel the love and attention the entire team put into it to make it look like a great experience. Then I saw the loot at the end and my heart sunk. I was reminded of every bad experience working with toxic guilds, groups, and individuals to simply get the gear I want/need. My MMO experience begins with EQ1, so I had a lot of those experiences throughout all the MMOs I played.
FF14 got close to doing it best and that was probably my longest played MMO. It also has the most healthy community or players. Therefore, I don't hesitate to ever play it again. As Kleptix mentioned, I won't go back to playing games like EQ2 because of poor loot experiences.
If the raid/event is successfully finished, everyone should leave it feeling gratified. Like someone else mentioned, I am also far more hesitant to engage in these events knowing how much time and effort they take if the chance I'm going to get to item I need/want is 1/30, 1/40, or none at all because a group of players are telling me I can't because of their guild structure or whatever.
I won't be getting the game if this isn't changed. There is no amount of quality that can change the above mentioned, and not mentioned, negative experiences that I have had throughout the years of playing MMOs with similar loot systems.
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
While I’m fine with some of the less-friendly system like Need/Greed or Bids when it comes to the (should-be) uncommon full gear drops, it’s just a plain old bad idea to not reward every contributor to the raid in some way through loot, and I cannot emphasize enough that those participation rewards should NOT be something other players can affect.
Literally who thought it was a good idea to let people kick group mates out of looting rights after a clear??? That’s such a horrible idea.
I don’t think there’s actually a way to compute how negative an experience it is to spend hours upon hours of your time in a raid, succeed, and then get nothing. It doesn’t encourage grouping or being social; it encourages your players to never join in with strangers to help them. It actively makes players more reluctant to engage cooperatively with each other when the tools that exist make it so unbelievably easy for the group lead to screw people over.
At the absolute least every player should get crafting materials based on their ranks in the respective gathering lines, and they should never lose looting rights from getting ninja-kicked after the clears.
I agree. There is absolutely no reason that every participant of a raid doesn't leave in some fashion stronger or better. As cool as that dragon fight looked, as soon as I saw the loot system, I immediately was reminded of every spoiled instance of having to work with toxic guild leaders, greedy players who had clout, ninja looters, selfish players to get the gear I wanted or needed.
there is a reason. it's not the nature of the open world boss and the game. so if you bring 1000 players to kill the boss, everyone should geet something, or only the 40 who had loot priority?
this isn't a game where everybody wins all the time and plenty of people like that. instance dungeons might be more of your thing.
edit: everybody remember this isn't the final loot system or rewards .-.
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
After 24 hours it seems majority of the people who commented on this thread agree that loot changes should be made for the greater overall good of the game, longevity and community. We have made solid positive suggestions with detailed arguments for the dev team to strongly consider and hopefully implement into their already developed loot system. Alpha 2 will be on its way soon and the goal is for this thread to get enough attention to be brought to the table for discussion.
On the other hand, those in favor of the current loot system have suggested - Don’t play with strangers / Don’t expect rewards for equal participation / Only play with group or guild members you know and trust to avoid being kicked prior to looting / Guilds establish ranking systems for allocating loot / Constantly be on the lookout across forums and discords for postings about ninja looters & bad reputations.
My overall issue with the suggestions from those in favor of the current system is that it promotes lone-wolfing and competition between group members until close friends are online to avoid an inherently flawed and outdated system that is rarely seen in current generation gaming. While I completely understand the devs team decision to keep things “old school”, I feel that majority of players appreciate quality of life and engagement more than temporary feelings of nostalgia that typically fade quickly.
Please continue to voice your opinions both for and against loot system changes while remaining respectful of others.
I am finding it a bit interesting that Intrepid and loot systems in AoC has revived this debate. Is this a case where bringing back that nostalgia is counterproductive to development?
I seem to have this opinion that recent MMO's have solved all these problems. And playing those as someone aware of all those systems. I was a bit taken by surprise when I would receive some loot from a raid boss. I guess it is kind of the Diablo-esque style where a chest drops and everyone with loot rights gets a pull at it.(I mean the loot mechanic, not the number of items that drop or table roll RNG chances and percentages)
The interesting thing about this, I think auction house and player trading completely solves the problem. As I have picked up loot in other games, first waiting for a minute for someone to lambast me for looting. Just to have found something that looks high value but not useable by my character.
Even player trading does not seem mainstream any longer. Where recent experience is that I should not even try to trade, even within my guild. They just tell me don't waste your time or my time. Just go put it on the auction house. Or in Ashes case I guess just go put out my player shop shingle for a while, good loot should sell pretty easily. Poor loot, well just becomes deconstruct for mats.
So I wonder, what is the appetite for guilds to have to manage loot distribution via their own rules? And what is the reason that a guild want to have that level of control on distribution of loot?
I am finding it a bit interesting that Intrepid and loot systems in AoC has revived this debate. Is this a case where bringing back that nostalgia is counterproductive to development?
I seem to have this opinion that recent MMO's have solved all these problems. And playing those as someone aware of all those systems. I was a bit taken by surprise when I would receive some loot from a raid boss. I guess it is kind of the Diablo-esque style where a chest drops and everyone with loot rights gets a pull at it.(I mean the loot mechanic, not the number of items that drop or table roll RNG chances and percentages)
The interesting thing about this, I think auction house and player trading completely solves the problem. As I have picked up loot in other games, first waiting for a minute for someone to lambast me for looting. Just to have found something that looks high value but not useable by my character.
Even player trading does not seem mainstream any longer. Where recent experience is that I should not even try to trade, even within my guild. They just tell me don't waste your time or my time. Just go put it on the auction house. Or in Ashes case I guess just go put out my player shop shingle for a while, good loot should sell pretty easily. Poor loot, well just becomes deconstruct for mats.
So I wonder, what is the appetite for guilds to have to manage loot distribution via their own rules? And what is the reason that a guild want to have that level of control on distribution of loot?
I personally find it counterproductive to development since the main priority of an MMO is building a world where players feel enticed to interact and engage with others. If majority of players feel ousted from rewards or are unlucky enough to come across ninja looters more often than others then it creates disdain and lack of trust for the next grouping opportunity. Players who experience this often will ultimately unsubscribe and move on.
I understand that being 1 of the 4 who do get rewarded out of 8 or 40 from an open world event or quest group is a huge dopamine hit that will carry along for a day or two but how do the majority who leave with nothing feel? Modern games like FFXIV and ESO have been able to implement systems that leave everyone feeling rewarded and extremely accomplished due to the level of difficulty the task requires to accomplish without fear they’ll be robbed or left out of a reward at the end of that experience.
I also share your sentiment with player trading, although I still find it important, the only instances I see it being used now-a-days is when someone gets an item they don’t need that a fellow group member does / helping the new guy who doesn’t have enough currency to purchase the items from auction / finally the absence of an auction house or market. That being said I would still like to see P2P trading be a part of the games economy as well as an auction house or market.
In my experience, the only guilds that care to have that level of control over loot are the ones that don’t want you to have it. Most good and respectable guilds would rather spend their time organizing events, raids etc. rather than resolving arguments over loot because the person next in line got screwed over by an officer or leader who felt entitled to it.
I truly believe there is too much importance being put on this archaic loot system as a staple of the economy and is being championed as a positive for player experience. Those who never experienced the downside of this system feel righteous in their opinion but those of us who know just how bad it can get simply refuse to partake in it again.
I am finding it a bit interesting that Intrepid and loot systems in AoC has revived this debate. Is this a case where bringing back that nostalgia is counterproductive to development?
I seem to have this opinion that recent MMO's have solved all these problems. And playing those as someone aware of all those systems. I was a bit taken by surprise when I would receive some loot from a raid boss. I guess it is kind of the Diablo-esque style where a chest drops and everyone with loot rights gets a pull at it.(I mean the loot mechanic, not the number of items that drop or table roll RNG chances and percentages)
The interesting thing about this, I think auction house and player trading completely solves the problem. As I have picked up loot in other games, first waiting for a minute for someone to lambast me for looting. Just to have found something that looks high value but not useable by my character.
Even player trading does not seem mainstream any longer. Where recent experience is that I should not even try to trade, even within my guild. They just tell me don't waste your time or my time. Just go put it on the auction house. Or in Ashes case I guess just go put out my player shop shingle for a while, good loot should sell pretty easily. Poor loot, well just becomes deconstruct for mats.
So I wonder, what is the appetite for guilds to have to manage loot distribution via their own rules? And what is the reason that a guild want to have that level of control on distribution of loot?
You mentioned the two systems going against the intended design of the economy, caravan systems, in depth crafting, importance of freeholds (which brings back the value of property as more than just RP decorating contests that nobody cares for and wont visit your house anyway). And on top of it some people call the alternative (the old school) nostalgia or labelling it mean spirited designed to punish participants.
You want all players to receive loot and you want AH? So you want the economy to be reduced to a cheaper than previous listing peanut gains competition since the markets will be flooded with the participation trophy loot?
So basically gear will be so easily accessible that there wont be a need to craft and equip characters, they can just bare with the loot gear for the next few levels, avoid spending time in gathering processing crafting and all the indepth meaningful mmo designed gameplay, since, know, there will be cheap gear in the AH for the next few levels and we can make this whole mmo into yet another race to the max level.
Yes, there isnt much thought going into these possitions and when they are countered the default action is to go into victimhood, and derail the topic to a back and forth of "you dont know what you are talking about" making it hard for anybody tasked with gathering feedback to bother clicking on the next page.
AoC will be complex because it wants to bring back quality mmo gameplay as opposed to instant gratification and 0 challenge designs.
These proposals wont work.
No. It goes against the philosophy of competitiveness. I dont know how you cant see that.
What's more rare, something that drops once at a time or something that drops x20 at a time?
What would create more contest? What would make for a healthier economy?
Do you know what percentage loot table means ? The same item won't drop 20x at a time if there is 1% chance of it dropping. Lots of MMOs have this system like Guild Wars 2 and it doesn't break the economy at all.
I'm sure you're the one that will complain if you never get any drop because your supposedly 'guild mates' take all the loot. The system I'm suggesting isn't about competitiveness or anything else, it's just to be fair for those who took the risk of fighting and succeeded doing so.
I never realized how Guild Wars 2 ran their loot system. I'm for a system that is similar to this. Since everything isn't soul bound, even if I get an item I can't use or don't want, I could trade it or sell/buy for the item I wish I got.
With their current system, everyone will need/greed as much as they can to resell or trade on every item they are able to.
I agree. There is absolutely no reason that every participant of a raid doesn't leave in some fashion stronger or better. As cool as that dragon fight looked, as soon as I saw the loot system, I immediately was reminded of every spoiled instance of having to work with toxic guild leaders, greedy players who had clout, ninja looters, selfish players to get the gear I wanted or needed.[/quote]
there is a reason. it's not the nature of the open world boss and the game. so if you bring 1000 players to kill the boss, everyone should geet something, or only the 40 who had loot priority?
this isn't a game where everybody wins all the time and plenty of people like that. instance dungeons might be more of your thing.
edit: everybody remember this isn't the final loot system or rewards .-.[/quote]
I hear what your saying to an extent. I also do not want things to be to the point where it feels meaningless. But the challenge should be in the content itself not social structures governed by sweaty Guild leaders and all of their lackeys.
Being blocked from loot by "the sweats w loot priority" or anyone else taking loot that you have a right to just because they can is only adding artificial challenges and frustration.
So yes, if it takes 40 people 2 hours of prep and 30mins of a hard fought fight, that likely has a timer on it, to kill a Mob, they all should get something that makes them feel empowered.
And the 2 or 4 scrubs that had to be backpacked? They will likely be either educated or blacklisted.
We realize it's not set in stone and that's why we are voicing our opinions now....
I am finding it a bit interesting that Intrepid and loot systems in AoC has revived this debate. Is this a case where bringing back that nostalgia is counterproductive to development?
I seem to have this opinion that recent MMO's have solved all these problems. And playing those as someone aware of all those systems. I was a bit taken by surprise when I would receive some loot from a raid boss. I guess it is kind of the Diablo-esque style where a chest drops and everyone with loot rights gets a pull at it.(I mean the loot mechanic, not the number of items that drop or table roll RNG chances and percentages)
The interesting thing about this, I think auction house and player trading completely solves the problem. As I have picked up loot in other games, first waiting for a minute for someone to lambast me for looting. Just to have found something that looks high value but not useable by my character.
Even player trading does not seem mainstream any longer. Where recent experience is that I should not even try to trade, even within my guild. They just tell me don't waste your time or my time. Just go put it on the auction house. Or in Ashes case I guess just go put out my player shop shingle for a while, good loot should sell pretty easily. Poor loot, well just becomes deconstruct for mats.
So I wonder, what is the appetite for guilds to have to manage loot distribution via their own rules? And what is the reason that a guild want to have that level of control on distribution of loot?
You mentioned the two systems going against the intended design of the economy, caravan systems, in depth crafting, importance of freeholds (which brings back the value of property as more than just RP decorating contests that nobody cares for and wont visit your house anyway). And on top of it some people call the alternative (the old school) nostalgia or labelling it mean spirited designed to punish participants.
You want all players to receive loot and you want AH? So you want the economy to be reduced to a cheaper than previous listing peanut gains competition since the markets will be flooded with the participation trophy loot?
So basically gear will be so easily accessible that there wont be a need to craft and equip characters, they can just bare with the loot gear for the next few levels, avoid spending time in gathering processing crafting and all the indepth meaningful mmo designed gameplay, since, know, there will be cheap gear in the AH for the next few levels and we can make this whole mmo into yet another race to the max level.
Yes, there isnt much thought going into these possitions and when they are countered the default action is to go into victimhood, and derail the topic to a back and forth of "you dont know what you are talking about" making it hard for anybody tasked with gathering feedback to bother clicking on the next page.
AoC will be complex because it wants to bring back quality mmo gameplay as opposed to instant gratification and 0 challenge designs.
These proposals wont work.
There is nothing quality or complex about outdated and thoughtless systems. The only thing the current loot system encourages is artificial challenges and frustration for everyone that is not the guild leader and his top 3 or 4 lackeys.
The challenge should be in the content itself (i.e. the battles), if that is done right then the reward after should not have any weight on "instant gratification". How could you say there was instant gratification after having to put in an hour or two of prep, and completing a hard event or boss fight?
What you are saying makes absolutely no sense, unless.... If the content stinks, then sure create artificial challenges like having to deal with loot systems that favor sweats.
I feel like if you spend an hour fighting off enemy groups, and you take a boss down, you should be rewarded for it somehow.
If just 1 person gets rewarded, then the system has failed.
I think loot should be divided into 3 parts:
Guaranteed drops. Less rare, maybe some more common materials, some common gear.
Loot table, where a specific boss has a specific % chance to drop certain items, either rare gear or rare materials.
Legendary items that the boss always drops.
Guaranteed drops, and the loot table of the boss should be given out to everyone who is eligible to gain loot from killing the boss. So basically, the raid that got the tag/did most damage.
Note that you won't always get certain drops, as the loot table % means that maybe there's only let's say a 10% chance you get an item you want.
This way, you get something for taking the boss down, and if you are lucky, an item you are looking for.
Legendary items should also drop, but they should use the need/greed system. This way, you also have something more sought after, that only those deemed "important" will be able to gain. That is in pre-made groups, with guild members, where people do somewhat trust each other, or at least more than pug groups.
You mentioned the two systems going against the intended design of the economy, caravan systems, in depth crafting, importance of freeholds (which brings back the value of property as more than just RP decorating contests that nobody cares for and wont visit your house anyway). And on top of it some people call the alternative (the old school) nostalgia or labelling it mean spirited designed to punish participants.
You want all players to receive loot and you want AH? So you want the economy to be reduced to a cheaper than previous listing peanut gains competition since the markets will be flooded with the participation trophy loot?
So basically gear will be so easily accessible that there wont be a need to craft and equip characters, they can just bare with the loot gear for the next few levels, avoid spending time in gathering processing crafting and all the indepth meaningful mmo designed gameplay, since, know, there will be cheap gear in the AH for the next few levels and we can make this whole mmo into yet another race to the max level.
Yes, there isnt much thought going into these possitions and when they are countered the default action is to go into victimhood, and derail the topic to a back and forth of "you dont know what you are talking about" making it hard for anybody tasked with gathering feedback to bother clicking on the next page.
AoC will be complex because it wants to bring back quality mmo gameplay as opposed to instant gratification and 0 challenge designs.
These proposals wont work.
I personally don’t think the system is designed to punish players, I think the intention is good hearted but short sighted and could be better. I refer to it as nostalgic because it doesn’t exist in modern gaming and has been replaced with different and better working systems. I do think the design encourages bad actors to act bad with no downside other than the fictitious fear that you’ll become blacklisted. If you’ve ever played EQ1 or EQ2 you would quickly realize there are entire guilds that take pride in ninja looting and screwing people over that say it’s just “roleplay”.
All of the MMOs mentioned in this thread with updated looting systems - FFXIV, ESO, Guild Wars 2, etc have thriving economies, meaningful crafting, challenging PvP, open world bosses, raids, flourishing auction houses / markets. Rushing to max level or end game is a personal choice rather than a game design flaw as long as there’s enough engaging content throughout. Keep in mind, not everyone wants to chop wood, gather berries or craft.
The point I’m trying to make is that you may be overvaluing the current loot system’s importance to the overall quality of the economy and undervaluing the unintended consequences of it. We’re looking for a middle ground that allows the devs to review our suggestions and implement them into the game the way they see fit and best. The end goal is to take the control of loot away from the individual player and in the control of the game itself. We do not want someone else deciding whether we are rewarded or not.
Most of the people posting in this thread have been open minded and accepting of different ideas from their experiences with other games, not derailing. Considering AoC is being created by devs whose backgrounds extend across all of the aforementioned games and more, it makes perfect sense to have this conversation. So let’s have it now before it’s too late!
Eso does not have meaningful crafting.
People beg to craft gear for newbies just for the RP of it.
I have one character only and I used to craft all the glyphs jewels potions food sets that I needed without talking to anybody in the whole game. I unlocked all the traits for all items even though I only played stsmDK.
There was better gold in selling trial items to the randoms.
Luckily I quit playing before they introduced gifting, which made ppl dominate the guild traders simply by selling skins for $$.
How can you say there is meaningful crafting?
I am going deaf in this echochamber of a topic.
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node.
Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses.
Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players.
Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node.
Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses.
Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players.
Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD
these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay.
also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node.
Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses.
Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players.
Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD
these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay.
also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content.
Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials.
Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot.
Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700
The everyone gets a trophy crowd is gonna be disappointed.
As long as intrepid enforces in chat agreed upon loot rules it'll be fine. Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
There's a fundamentally flawed assumption that's it either '90% of the party gets nothing' and 'anyone who breathes near the boss gets super good loot'.
Having tiered loot like already mentioned is the best way to ensure no one is walking away with nothing to show as long as they've contributed enough for whatever merit threshold is put in place, similar to the mob tagging system.
Tier 1: The basic crafting materials based on Gatherer ranks, personal loot and only useful after entering the player crafting networks. Default: Common quality in small amounts, quality and amount adjusted based on specific Gathering levels and perk selections
Tier 2: General recipes and craft plans based on Crafting rank, % based drop and useless without the materials
Tier 3: Full gear, rare enchantment stones, trophy item, etc etc, the Rares: Bid system.
I don't think Lootmaster has any place in a healthy game climate. It's far too easily misused and there's no recourse for shitty behavior. (Just look at EQ to see how useless a social blackslist would be). If people want one person handing out loot, then that can happen organically after looting occurs with everyone willingly giving up their drops to be handed out. And if they don't want to do that? Well, sounds like the guild did a bad job inspiring guild loyalty.
In a game where they want a high amount of socializing and the politicking that comes with it, they shouldn't be using a loot system that enables risk-free bad behavior with high probability of nothing awarded for taking on difficult content. It a recipe for a barren PvE landscape where no one wants to bother trying to enter into it.
The everyone gets a trophy crowd is gonna be disappointed.
As long as intrepid enforces in chat agreed upon loot rules it'll be fine. Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
So me taking 2ish hours of my time to prep for a fight and being a key asset in winning that fight would still constitute "a everyone gets a trophy" mindset? You are not using that terminology correctly.
No, it will not be fine. This game will be limited to guilds already formed in other MMOs transfering over. Which is fine if this game can survive with only those numbers.
Players like me, and the majority of the thread, know that taking loot power out of other players hands and into the game itself is what is best for a healthy and good community. Why? Because at the end of the day if everyone in a group invested a significant amount of time and effort, they actually do deserve to be rewarded, by the game and not some sweat.
Games with these mechanics have the healthiest communities. Games without have garbage communities from a Macro scale. If your in the sweaty guild, especially at the top, its probably great and all the lackeys have Stockholm syndrome from fiending over loot, so it probably all feels great to them too. Outside of that, garbage.
The only reason the old style MMOs survived is because that's all we had. That isn't the case anymore. New players WILL get frustrated and WILL leave the second they need to answer to some other player for loot and gear.
Someone else said something that this game is more focused on social implications or something? Guess what, I'm not going to want to attribute to anything if I need to ask for it from another player and run the risk of not getting what I want due to another players decision. Especially after I already committed a lot of my time and effort into a fight or event. I earned it, and so did everyone else.
At the end of the day, Intrepid can do what they see fit but I won't play it and that is OK. However, loot systems are important and other players, especially new ones, will also not tolerate it.
The everyone gets a trophy crowd is gonna be disappointed.
As long as intrepid enforces in chat agreed upon loot rules it'll be fine. Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
There's a fundamentally flawed assumption that's it either '90% of the party gets nothing' and 'anyone who breathes near the boss gets super good loot'.
Having tiered loot like already mentioned is the best way to ensure no one is walking away with nothing to show as long as they've contributed enough for whatever merit threshold is put in place, similar to the mob tagging system.
Tier 1: The basic crafting materials based on Gatherer ranks, personal loot and only useful after entering the player crafting networks. Default: Common quality in small amounts, quality and amount adjusted based on specific Gathering levels and perk selections
Tier 2: General recipes and craft plans based on Crafting rank, % based drop and useless without the materials
Tier 3: Full gear, rare enchantment stones, trophy item, etc etc, the Rares: Bid system.
I don't think Lootmaster has any place in a healthy game climate. It's far too easily misused and there's no recourse for shitty behavior. (Just look at EQ to see how useless a social blackslist would be). If people want one person handing out loot, then that can happen organically after looting occurs with everyone willingly giving up their drops to be handed out. And if they don't want to do that? Well, sounds like the guild did a bad job inspiring guild loyalty.
In a game where they want a high amount of socializing and the politicking that comes with it, they shouldn't be using a loot system that enables risk-free bad behavior with high probability of nothing awarded for taking on difficult content. It a recipe for a barren PvE landscape where no one wants to bother trying to enter into it.
The everyone gets a trophy crowd is gonna be disappointed.
As long as intrepid enforces in chat agreed upon loot rules it'll be fine. Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
So me taking 2ish hours of my time to prep for a fight and being a key asset in winning that fight would still constitute "a everyone gets a trophy" mindset? You are not using that terminology correctly.
No, it will not be fine. This game will be limited to guilds already formed in other MMOs transfering over. Which is fine if this game can survive with only those numbers.
Players like me, and the majority of the thread, know that taking loot power out of other players hands and into the game itself is what is best for a healthy and good community. Why? Because at the end of the day if everyone in a group invested a significant amount of time and effort, they actually do deserve to be rewarded, by the game and not some sweat.
Games with these mechanics have the healthiest communities. Games without have garbage communities from a Macro scale. If your in the sweaty guild, especially at the top, its probably great and all the lackeys have Stockholm syndrome from fiending over loot, so it probably all feels great to them too. Outside of that, garbage.
The only reason the old style MMOs survived is because that's all we had. That isn't the case anymore. New players WILL get frustrated and WILL leave the second they need to answer to some other player for loot and gear.
Someone else said something that this game is more focused on social implications or something? Guess what, I'm not going to want to attribute to anything if I need to ask for it from another player and run the risk of not getting what I want due to another players decision. Especially after I already committed a lot of my time and effort into a fight or event. I earned it, and so did everyone else.
At the end of the day, Intrepid can do what they see fit but I won't play it and that is OK. However, loot systems are important and other players, especially new ones, will also not tolerate it.
Join a guild you like. If is guild is "toxic" leave it and start your own. Taking power away from players is not what this game is about. You act like two hours of prep is really difficult, try spending months on building a node only for the bad men to come and burn it down.
Players shouldn't decide if I get a reward or not. The game should. Make participation tiers like suggested above so everyone gets a chance of getting something with a % chance for every item. It's about fairplay. There is still risk in that system, because if you just die/respawn (mainly because of the encounter or PvP), you won't get as much rewarded as other players and if you wipe and respawn elsewhere, you don't get anything. I mean, it's not that hard to understand. Get over it, we're not in 2005 anymore.
Players shouldn't decide if I get a reward or not. The game should. Make participation tiers like suggested above so everyone gets a chance of getting something with a % chance for every item. It's about fairplay. There is still risk in that system, because if you just die/respawn (mainly because of the encounter or PvP), you won't get as much rewarded as other players and if you wipe and respawn elsewhere, you don't get anything. I mean, it's not that hard to understand. Get over it, we're not in 2005 anymore.
That sounds like you want to play a single player or limited co-op game. Why are you playing an MMO?
Join a guild you like. If is guild is "toxic" leave it and start your own. Taking power away from players is not what this game is about. You act like two hours of prep is really difficult, try spending months on building a node only for the bad men to come and burn it down.
Please tell me how I’m supposed to join a guild that I like when your solution to circumvent the negative consequences of the current system is to avoid majority of the player base in an MMO?
Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
This is one of the main reasons the systems is flawed and more encouraging of lone-wolfing or strictly playing in a static group of known friends from other games that come over to AoC with you. This goes against everything an MMO should be.
In my personal experience, there is no point in having a greed choice in a rule-free looting system because everyone is going to need, need, need. Even your most honest players will do it out of fear that others will and leave them empty handed. There will be no social repercussions because it will be too common for anyone to care about blacklists.
Also in my experience, loot master usually ends up with a guild leader and his top officers being rewarded and no one else. Round Robin is pointless but probably the most desired out of the choices because at least you’re guaranteed something from the game rather than a player but rarely if ever something you want.
With all of these loot options, why not have the option to let the game decide your loot, similar to how it does in round robin, but smarter and more effective?
Players shouldn't decide if I get a reward or not. The game should. Make participation tiers like suggested above so everyone gets a chance of getting something with a % chance for every item. It's about fairplay. There is still risk in that system, because if you just die/respawn (mainly because of the encounter or PvP), you won't get as much rewarded as other players and if you wipe and respawn elsewhere, you don't get anything. I mean, it's not that hard to understand. Get over it, we're not in 2005 anymore.
That sounds like you want to play a single player or limited co-op game. Why are you playing an MMO?
It's not because I want a single system to be fair that I don't want the other systems that an MMO can offer. Guild Wars 2 has the exact system I suggest and it's still an MMO. I play an MMO for the social aspect, not for being controled by other players 😉
Join a guild you like. If is guild is "toxic" leave it and start your own. Taking power away from players is not what this game is about. You act like two hours of prep is really difficult, try spending months on building a node only for the bad men to come and burn it down.
Please tell me how I’m supposed to join a guild that I like when your solution to circumvent the negative consequences of the current system is to avoid majority of the player base in an MMO?
Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
This is one of the main reasons the systems is flawed and more encouraging of lone-wolfing or strictly playing in a static group of known friends from other games that come over to AoC with you. This goes against everything an MMO should be.
In my personal experience, there is no point in having a greed choice in a rule-free looting system because everyone is going to need, need, need. Even your most honest players will do it out of fear that others will and leave them empty handed. There will be no social repercussions becau000se it will be too common for anyone to care about blacklists.
Also in my experience, loot master usually ends up with a guild leader and his top officers being rewarded and no one else. Round Robin is pointless but probably the most desired out of the choices because at least you’re guaranteed something from the game rather than a player but rarely if ever something you want.
With all of these loot options, why not have the option to let the game decide your loot, similar to how it does in round robin, but smarter and more effective?
Be social? Ask on discord, general chat, or talk with people in groups if you like them about joining their guild. Seems like an inability to make friends is your issue.Games with personal loot have significantly more lone wolfing than games that require some level of social engagement.
Playing in pugs will always have people who need everything. Take some initiative and eliminate that problem by joining a guild. You pretend like guilds won't invite you, but thats a you issue. There are plenty of guilds recruiting right now for this game, join one. If you don't like it, join a different one. It's really not hard.
Ive played in many top 100 guilds in various games; none did loot like this. This is a you problem.
Players shouldn't decide if I get a reward or not. The game should. Make participation tiers like suggested above so everyone gets a chance of getting something with a % chance for every item. It's about fairplay. There is still risk in that system, because if you just die/respawn (mainly because of the encounter or PvP), you won't get as much rewarded as other players and if you wipe and respawn elsewhere, you don't get anything. I mean, it's not that hard to understand. Get over it, we're not in 2005 anymore.
That sounds like you want to play a single player or limited co-op game. Why are you playing an MMO?
It's not because I want a single system to be fair that I don't want the other systems that an MMO can offer. Guild Wars 2 has the exact system I suggest and it's still an MMO. I play an MMO for the social aspect, not for being controled by other players 😉
Gw2 has an overabundance of random trash loot intended to shower you with dopamine. It's boring, and is the equivalent of getting a gold star sticker next to your name in elementary school when you do something "good".
I think loot should be more rewarding than it was 20 years ago when it was rare to get anything. Instead of getting something everytime making it almost meaningless, there should be better odds of getting something. After defeating 2 or 3 raid bosses, you should definitely get something you can loot yourself so you know you're not wasting time.
Join a guild you like. If is guild is "toxic" leave it and start your own. Taking power away from players is not what this game is about. You act like two hours of prep is really difficult, try spending months on building a node only for the bad men to come and burn it down.
Please tell me how I’m supposed to join a guild that I like when your solution to circumvent the negative consequences of the current system is to avoid majority of the player base in an MMO?
Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
This is one of the main reasons the systems is flawed and more encouraging of lone-wolfing or strictly playing in a static group of known friends from other games that come over to AoC with you. This goes against everything an MMO should be.
In my personal experience, there is no point in having a greed choice in a rule-free looting system because everyone is going to need, need, need. Even your most honest players will do it out of fear that others will and leave them empty handed. There will be no social repercussions because it will be too common for anyone to care about blacklists.
Well, yes and no.
If you are doing content with your guild, and they see you clicked NEED instead of pass, when you were not supposed to, well you'll be on thin ice. Next time you do it, at best you won't get invited for any content, or at worst, you're getting kicked out and blacklisted.
That is, if they're not already just using lootmaster, and distributing loot however they want to.
With pugs, it's obviously different, which is why you want to be in a guild.
Also in my experience, loot master usually ends up with a guild leader and his top officers being rewarded and no one else. Round Robin is pointless but probably the most desired out of the choices because at least you’re guaranteed something from the game rather than a player but rarely if ever something you want.
With all of these loot options, why not have the option to let the game decide your loot, similar to how it does in round robin, but smarter and more effective?
In my experience, it really depends.
Yes it's true in most cases, but there's a reason why. Usually those people are the most active people, who will benefit the most from getting a certain item. There's a pecking order, always.
With some toxic guilds, yeah, you are absolutely right only the top people get everything.
This is why I suggested a mix of both, where only more valuable items are using this system, and you still get something from drops.
The everyone gets a trophy crowd is gonna be disappointed.
As long as intrepid enforces in chat agreed upon loot rules it'll be fine. Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
There's a fundamentally flawed assumption that's it either '90% of the party gets nothing' and 'anyone who breathes near the boss gets super good loot'.
Having tiered loot like already mentioned is the best way to ensure no one is walking away with nothing to show as long as they've contributed enough for whatever merit threshold is put in place, similar to the mob tagging system.
Tier 1: The basic crafting materials based on Gatherer ranks, personal loot and only useful after entering the player crafting networks. Default: Common quality in small amounts, quality and amount adjusted based on specific Gathering levels and perk selections
Tier 2: General recipes and craft plans based on Crafting rank, % based drop and useless without the materials
Tier 3: Full gear, rare enchantment stones, trophy item, etc etc, the Rares: Bid system.
I don't think Lootmaster has any place in a healthy game climate. It's far too easily misused and there's no recourse for shitty behavior. (Just look at EQ to see how useless a social blackslist would be). If people want one person handing out loot, then that can happen organically after looting occurs with everyone willingly giving up their drops to be handed out. And if they don't want to do that? Well, sounds like the guild did a bad job inspiring guild loyalty.
In a game where they want a high amount of socializing and the politicking that comes with it, they shouldn't be using a loot system that enables risk-free bad behavior with high probability of nothing awarded for taking on difficult content. It a recipe for a barren PvE landscape where no one wants to bother trying to enter into it.
The everyone gets a trophy crowd is gonna be disappointed.
As long as intrepid enforces in chat agreed upon loot rules it'll be fine. Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
So me taking 2ish hours of my time to prep for a fight and being a key asset in winning that fight would still constitute "a everyone gets a trophy" mindset? You are not using that terminology correctly.
No, it will not be fine. This game will be limited to guilds already formed in other MMOs transfering over. Which is fine if this game can survive with only those numbers.
Players like me, and the majority of the thread, know that taking loot power out of other players hands and into the game itself is what is best for a healthy and good community. Why? Because at the end of the day if everyone in a group invested a significant amount of time and effort, they actually do deserve to be rewarded, by the game and not some sweat.
Games with these mechanics have the healthiest communities. Games without have garbage communities from a Macro scale. If your in the sweaty guild, especially at the top, its probably great and all the lackeys have Stockholm syndrome from fiending over loot, so it probably all feels great to them too. Outside of that, garbage.
The only reason the old style MMOs survived is because that's all we had. That isn't the case anymore. New players WILL get frustrated and WILL leave the second they need to answer to some other player for loot and gear.
Someone else said something that this game is more focused on social implications or something? Guess what, I'm not going to want to attribute to anything if I need to ask for it from another player and run the risk of not getting what I want due to another players decision. Especially after I already committed a lot of my time and effort into a fight or event. I earned it, and so did everyone else.
At the end of the day, Intrepid can do what they see fit but I won't play it and that is OK. However, loot systems are important and other players, especially new ones, will also not tolerate it.
Join a guild you like. If is guild is "toxic" leave it and start your own. Taking power away from players is not what this game is about. You act like two hours of prep is really difficult, try spending months on building a node only for the bad men to come and burn it down.
I have ran guilds in EQ1, EQ2, Dark Ages of Cam, FF11, FF14. Making decisions on loot distribution was always a thing. I always wanted to be fair and took the input of everyone involved but there is hardly ever a decision that leaves everyone feeling good about it. That's why as a leader I feel it is fair to take the power out of my hands. My best experience running raids and dungeons was ff14 because I could leave it up to a need/greed system. Although I would prefer it be more like GW2 or ESO where I and no one else has no say on who is going to be rewarded and how.
Ultimately, this allows everyone involved to focus on the content which is where the effort should be made. Not forcing players to create artificial social power structures that will only lead to people feeling frustrated = not fun.
Comments
FF14 got close to doing it best and that was probably my longest played MMO. It also has the most healthy community or players. Therefore, I don't hesitate to ever play it again. As Kleptix mentioned, I won't go back to playing games like EQ2 because of poor loot experiences.
If the raid/event is successfully finished, everyone should leave it feeling gratified. Like someone else mentioned, I am also far more hesitant to engage in these events knowing how much time and effort they take if the chance I'm going to get to item I need/want is 1/30, 1/40, or none at all because a group of players are telling me I can't because of their guild structure or whatever.
I won't be getting the game if this isn't changed. There is no amount of quality that can change the above mentioned, and not mentioned, negative experiences that I have had throughout the years of playing MMOs with similar loot systems.
you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
there is a reason. it's not the nature of the open world boss and the game. so if you bring 1000 players to kill the boss, everyone should geet something, or only the 40 who had loot priority?
this isn't a game where everybody wins all the time and plenty of people like that. instance dungeons might be more of your thing.
edit: everybody remember this isn't the final loot system or rewards .-.
I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them.
You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass.
As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour.
Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
On the other hand, those in favor of the current loot system have suggested - Don’t play with strangers / Don’t expect rewards for equal participation / Only play with group or guild members you know and trust to avoid being kicked prior to looting / Guilds establish ranking systems for allocating loot / Constantly be on the lookout across forums and discords for postings about ninja looters & bad reputations.
My overall issue with the suggestions from those in favor of the current system is that it promotes lone-wolfing and competition between group members until close friends are online to avoid an inherently flawed and outdated system that is rarely seen in current generation gaming. While I completely understand the devs team decision to keep things “old school”, I feel that majority of players appreciate quality of life and engagement more than temporary feelings of nostalgia that typically fade quickly.
Please continue to voice your opinions both for and against loot system changes while remaining respectful of others.
I seem to have this opinion that recent MMO's have solved all these problems. And playing those as someone aware of all those systems. I was a bit taken by surprise when I would receive some loot from a raid boss. I guess it is kind of the Diablo-esque style where a chest drops and everyone with loot rights gets a pull at it.(I mean the loot mechanic, not the number of items that drop or table roll RNG chances and percentages)
The interesting thing about this, I think auction house and player trading completely solves the problem. As I have picked up loot in other games, first waiting for a minute for someone to lambast me for looting. Just to have found something that looks high value but not useable by my character.
Even player trading does not seem mainstream any longer. Where recent experience is that I should not even try to trade, even within my guild. They just tell me don't waste your time or my time. Just go put it on the auction house. Or in Ashes case I guess just go put out my player shop shingle for a while, good loot should sell pretty easily. Poor loot, well just becomes deconstruct for mats.
So I wonder, what is the appetite for guilds to have to manage loot distribution via their own rules? And what is the reason that a guild want to have that level of control on distribution of loot?
I personally find it counterproductive to development since the main priority of an MMO is building a world where players feel enticed to interact and engage with others. If majority of players feel ousted from rewards or are unlucky enough to come across ninja looters more often than others then it creates disdain and lack of trust for the next grouping opportunity. Players who experience this often will ultimately unsubscribe and move on.
I understand that being 1 of the 4 who do get rewarded out of 8 or 40 from an open world event or quest group is a huge dopamine hit that will carry along for a day or two but how do the majority who leave with nothing feel? Modern games like FFXIV and ESO have been able to implement systems that leave everyone feeling rewarded and extremely accomplished due to the level of difficulty the task requires to accomplish without fear they’ll be robbed or left out of a reward at the end of that experience.
I also share your sentiment with player trading, although I still find it important, the only instances I see it being used now-a-days is when someone gets an item they don’t need that a fellow group member does / helping the new guy who doesn’t have enough currency to purchase the items from auction / finally the absence of an auction house or market. That being said I would still like to see P2P trading be a part of the games economy as well as an auction house or market.
In my experience, the only guilds that care to have that level of control over loot are the ones that don’t want you to have it. Most good and respectable guilds would rather spend their time organizing events, raids etc. rather than resolving arguments over loot because the person next in line got screwed over by an officer or leader who felt entitled to it.
I truly believe there is too much importance being put on this archaic loot system as a staple of the economy and is being championed as a positive for player experience. Those who never experienced the downside of this system feel righteous in their opinion but those of us who know just how bad it can get simply refuse to partake in it again.
You mentioned the two systems going against the intended design of the economy, caravan systems, in depth crafting, importance of freeholds (which brings back the value of property as more than just RP decorating contests that nobody cares for and wont visit your house anyway). And on top of it some people call the alternative (the old school) nostalgia or labelling it mean spirited designed to punish participants.
You want all players to receive loot and you want AH? So you want the economy to be reduced to a cheaper than previous listing peanut gains competition since the markets will be flooded with the participation trophy loot?
So basically gear will be so easily accessible that there wont be a need to craft and equip characters, they can just bare with the loot gear for the next few levels, avoid spending time in gathering processing crafting and all the indepth meaningful mmo designed gameplay, since, know, there will be cheap gear in the AH for the next few levels and we can make this whole mmo into yet another race to the max level.
Yes, there isnt much thought going into these possitions and when they are countered the default action is to go into victimhood, and derail the topic to a back and forth of "you dont know what you are talking about" making it hard for anybody tasked with gathering feedback to bother clicking on the next page.
AoC will be complex because it wants to bring back quality mmo gameplay as opposed to instant gratification and 0 challenge designs.
These proposals wont work.
I never realized how Guild Wars 2 ran their loot system. I'm for a system that is similar to this. Since everything isn't soul bound, even if I get an item I can't use or don't want, I could trade it or sell/buy for the item I wish I got.
With their current system, everyone will need/greed as much as they can to resell or trade on every item they are able to.
there is a reason. it's not the nature of the open world boss and the game. so if you bring 1000 players to kill the boss, everyone should geet something, or only the 40 who had loot priority?
this isn't a game where everybody wins all the time and plenty of people like that. instance dungeons might be more of your thing.
edit: everybody remember this isn't the final loot system or rewards .-.[/quote]
I hear what your saying to an extent. I also do not want things to be to the point where it feels meaningless. But the challenge should be in the content itself not social structures governed by sweaty Guild leaders and all of their lackeys.
Being blocked from loot by "the sweats w loot priority" or anyone else taking loot that you have a right to just because they can is only adding artificial challenges and frustration.
So yes, if it takes 40 people 2 hours of prep and 30mins of a hard fought fight, that likely has a timer on it, to kill a Mob, they all should get something that makes them feel empowered.
And the 2 or 4 scrubs that had to be backpacked? They will likely be either educated or blacklisted.
We realize it's not set in stone and that's why we are voicing our opinions now....
There is nothing quality or complex about outdated and thoughtless systems. The only thing the current loot system encourages is artificial challenges and frustration for everyone that is not the guild leader and his top 3 or 4 lackeys.
The challenge should be in the content itself (i.e. the battles), if that is done right then the reward after should not have any weight on "instant gratification". How could you say there was instant gratification after having to put in an hour or two of prep, and completing a hard event or boss fight?
What you are saying makes absolutely no sense, unless.... If the content stinks, then sure create artificial challenges like having to deal with loot systems that favor sweats.
If just 1 person gets rewarded, then the system has failed.
I think loot should be divided into 3 parts:
Guaranteed drops, and the loot table of the boss should be given out to everyone who is eligible to gain loot from killing the boss. So basically, the raid that got the tag/did most damage.
Note that you won't always get certain drops, as the loot table % means that maybe there's only let's say a 10% chance you get an item you want.
This way, you get something for taking the boss down, and if you are lucky, an item you are looking for.
Legendary items should also drop, but they should use the need/greed system. This way, you also have something more sought after, that only those deemed "important" will be able to gain. That is in pre-made groups, with guild members, where people do somewhat trust each other, or at least more than pug groups.
This way, you can have both.
I personally don’t think the system is designed to punish players, I think the intention is good hearted but short sighted and could be better. I refer to it as nostalgic because it doesn’t exist in modern gaming and has been replaced with different and better working systems. I do think the design encourages bad actors to act bad with no downside other than the fictitious fear that you’ll become blacklisted. If you’ve ever played EQ1 or EQ2 you would quickly realize there are entire guilds that take pride in ninja looting and screwing people over that say it’s just “roleplay”.
All of the MMOs mentioned in this thread with updated looting systems - FFXIV, ESO, Guild Wars 2, etc have thriving economies, meaningful crafting, challenging PvP, open world bosses, raids, flourishing auction houses / markets. Rushing to max level or end game is a personal choice rather than a game design flaw as long as there’s enough engaging content throughout. Keep in mind, not everyone wants to chop wood, gather berries or craft.
The point I’m trying to make is that you may be overvaluing the current loot system’s importance to the overall quality of the economy and undervaluing the unintended consequences of it. We’re looking for a middle ground that allows the devs to review our suggestions and implement them into the game the way they see fit and best. The end goal is to take the control of loot away from the individual player and in the control of the game itself. We do not want someone else deciding whether we are rewarded or not.
Most of the people posting in this thread have been open minded and accepting of different ideas from their experiences with other games, not derailing. Considering AoC is being created by devs whose backgrounds extend across all of the aforementioned games and more, it makes perfect sense to have this conversation. So let’s have it now before it’s too late!
People beg to craft gear for newbies just for the RP of it.
I have one character only and I used to craft all the glyphs jewels potions food sets that I needed without talking to anybody in the whole game. I unlocked all the traits for all items even though I only played stsmDK.
There was better gold in selling trial items to the randoms.
Luckily I quit playing before they introduced gifting, which made ppl dominate the guild traders simply by selling skins for $$.
How can you say there is meaningful crafting?
I am going deaf in this echochamber of a topic.
again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7.
2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node.
Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses.
Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players.
Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD
these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay.
also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content.
Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials.
Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot.
Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40
As long as intrepid enforces in chat agreed upon loot rules it'll be fine. Don't play with people you don't trust or better yet join a guild.
There's a fundamentally flawed assumption that's it either '90% of the party gets nothing' and 'anyone who breathes near the boss gets super good loot'.
Having tiered loot like already mentioned is the best way to ensure no one is walking away with nothing to show as long as they've contributed enough for whatever merit threshold is put in place, similar to the mob tagging system.
Tier 1: The basic crafting materials based on Gatherer ranks, personal loot and only useful after entering the player crafting networks. Default: Common quality in small amounts, quality and amount adjusted based on specific Gathering levels and perk selections
Tier 2: General recipes and craft plans based on Crafting rank, % based drop and useless without the materials
Tier 3: Full gear, rare enchantment stones, trophy item, etc etc, the Rares: Bid system.
I don't think Lootmaster has any place in a healthy game climate. It's far too easily misused and there's no recourse for shitty behavior. (Just look at EQ to see how useless a social blackslist would be). If people want one person handing out loot, then that can happen organically after looting occurs with everyone willingly giving up their drops to be handed out. And if they don't want to do that? Well, sounds like the guild did a bad job inspiring guild loyalty.
In a game where they want a high amount of socializing and the politicking that comes with it, they shouldn't be using a loot system that enables risk-free bad behavior with high probability of nothing awarded for taking on difficult content. It a recipe for a barren PvE landscape where no one wants to bother trying to enter into it.
So me taking 2ish hours of my time to prep for a fight and being a key asset in winning that fight would still constitute "a everyone gets a trophy" mindset? You are not using that terminology correctly.
No, it will not be fine. This game will be limited to guilds already formed in other MMOs transfering over. Which is fine if this game can survive with only those numbers.
Players like me, and the majority of the thread, know that taking loot power out of other players hands and into the game itself is what is best for a healthy and good community. Why? Because at the end of the day if everyone in a group invested a significant amount of time and effort, they actually do deserve to be rewarded, by the game and not some sweat.
Games with these mechanics have the healthiest communities. Games without have garbage communities from a Macro scale. If your in the sweaty guild, especially at the top, its probably great and all the lackeys have Stockholm syndrome from fiending over loot, so it probably all feels great to them too. Outside of that, garbage.
The only reason the old style MMOs survived is because that's all we had. That isn't the case anymore. New players WILL get frustrated and WILL leave the second they need to answer to some other player for loot and gear.
Someone else said something that this game is more focused on social implications or something? Guess what, I'm not going to want to attribute to anything if I need to ask for it from another player and run the risk of not getting what I want due to another players decision. Especially after I already committed a lot of my time and effort into a fight or event. I earned it, and so did everyone else.
At the end of the day, Intrepid can do what they see fit but I won't play it and that is OK. However, loot systems are important and other players, especially new ones, will also not tolerate it.
Join a guild you like. If is guild is "toxic" leave it and start your own. Taking power away from players is not what this game is about. You act like two hours of prep is really difficult, try spending months on building a node only for the bad men to come and burn it down.
That sounds like you want to play a single player or limited co-op game. Why are you playing an MMO?
Please tell me how I’m supposed to join a guild that I like when your solution to circumvent the negative consequences of the current system is to avoid majority of the player base in an MMO?
This is one of the main reasons the systems is flawed and more encouraging of lone-wolfing or strictly playing in a static group of known friends from other games that come over to AoC with you. This goes against everything an MMO should be.
In my personal experience, there is no point in having a greed choice in a rule-free looting system because everyone is going to need, need, need. Even your most honest players will do it out of fear that others will and leave them empty handed. There will be no social repercussions because it will be too common for anyone to care about blacklists.
Also in my experience, loot master usually ends up with a guild leader and his top officers being rewarded and no one else. Round Robin is pointless but probably the most desired out of the choices because at least you’re guaranteed something from the game rather than a player but rarely if ever something you want.
With all of these loot options, why not have the option to let the game decide your loot, similar to how it does in round robin, but smarter and more effective?
It's not because I want a single system to be fair that I don't want the other systems that an MMO can offer. Guild Wars 2 has the exact system I suggest and it's still an MMO. I play an MMO for the social aspect, not for being controled by other players 😉
Be social? Ask on discord, general chat, or talk with people in groups if you like them about joining their guild. Seems like an inability to make friends is your issue.Games with personal loot have significantly more lone wolfing than games that require some level of social engagement.
Playing in pugs will always have people who need everything. Take some initiative and eliminate that problem by joining a guild. You pretend like guilds won't invite you, but thats a you issue. There are plenty of guilds recruiting right now for this game, join one. If you don't like it, join a different one. It's really not hard.
Ive played in many top 100 guilds in various games; none did loot like this. This is a you problem.
Gw2 has an overabundance of random trash loot intended to shower you with dopamine. It's boring, and is the equivalent of getting a gold star sticker next to your name in elementary school when you do something "good".
Well, yes and no.
If you are doing content with your guild, and they see you clicked NEED instead of pass, when you were not supposed to, well you'll be on thin ice. Next time you do it, at best you won't get invited for any content, or at worst, you're getting kicked out and blacklisted.
That is, if they're not already just using lootmaster, and distributing loot however they want to.
With pugs, it's obviously different, which is why you want to be in a guild.
In my experience, it really depends.
Yes it's true in most cases, but there's a reason why. Usually those people are the most active people, who will benefit the most from getting a certain item. There's a pecking order, always.
With some toxic guilds, yeah, you are absolutely right only the top people get everything.
This is why I suggested a mix of both, where only more valuable items are using this system, and you still get something from drops.
I have ran guilds in EQ1, EQ2, Dark Ages of Cam, FF11, FF14. Making decisions on loot distribution was always a thing. I always wanted to be fair and took the input of everyone involved but there is hardly ever a decision that leaves everyone feeling good about it. That's why as a leader I feel it is fair to take the power out of my hands. My best experience running raids and dungeons was ff14 because I could leave it up to a need/greed system. Although I would prefer it be more like GW2 or ESO where I and no one else has no say on who is going to be rewarded and how.
Ultimately, this allows everyone involved to focus on the content which is where the effort should be made. Not forcing players to create artificial social power structures that will only lead to people feeling frustrated = not fun.