Caeryl wrote: » When max loot is 4 gear items and a chunk of materials for your party, you have think about the risks of bringing more players than strictly necessary to an open world boss because it might lessen your rewards.
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » When max loot is 4 gear items and a chunk of materials for your party, you have think about the risks of bringing more players than strictly necessary to an open world boss because it might lessen your rewards. So even in the case of all 200 people hitting the boss - there'll still only be one raid with looting rights, all 40 of whose players will have the merits for the fight. Unless I'm still misunderstanding your merit system and it doesn't care about the looting rights part of the encounter and merits can be "stolen" from the main raid by doing dmg (or equivalent to it actions).
Caeryl wrote: » Five people met the merit threshold, but only one would get to actually pull loot due to being in the raid that got looting rights. This is an extremely simplified version of course and in most cases the winning group has higher total dps, but it’s just to demonstrate that getting looting rights isn’t indicative of qualifying for a merit pull.
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Five people met the merit threshold, but only one would get to actually pull loot due to being in the raid that got looting rights. This is an extremely simplified version of course and in most cases the winning group has higher total dps, but it’s just to demonstrate that getting looting rights isn’t indicative of qualifying for a merit pull. Ok, I think I finally understand. I completely disagree with a design like this and consider it the most modern solo-centric "only I matter" dps-meter-based design ever and I would hate it if Intrepid went for this, but at least I understand your pov now.
Caeryl wrote: » Alright, you’ve gotten lost again
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Alright, you’ve gotten lost again Here's an example question to clarify: There's 2 teams. Team 1 gets the first hit on the boss, but team 2 performs 1% above team 1 in literally all traceable metrics. Team 1 still gets looting rights, but would they get any loot in your merit system?
Ludullu_(NiKr) wrote: » Mdini wrote: » Did you not read any of the comments? Everyone who posted input are veteran MMO players. I added my feedback exactly BECAUSE I read all the comments. Mdini wrote: » The only possible reason you could like that thoughtless system is if you have a history of being a guild leader or an officer. I've played Lineage 2 for 12 years. In that time I've been everything, from a random solo player buying craft mat by craft mat in order to make a single piece of armor for myself, all the way up to a GL of a 200-member guild that used this exact looting system to fairly distribute the loot. And in my 12 years of playing the game I've barely ever seen guilds that would fuck over people as much as all yall are scared shitless of. You know why? Because L2 is a party game, where your party is pretty much your family, so you have the same people playing with you day in day out. And then those parties join each other in guild families, where everyone holds each other responsible for good culture and fairness. And if someone was such a dick that they fucked people over on loot - they'd be known across the entire server and barely anyone would even agree to guild up with them. Yall seem to come from places where "pugs" was a normal thing and where everyone only thought about their own loot and success, so not getting a piece of drop EVEN ONCE meant that you got "fucked over". This is why I called yall modern gamers. And if you're all supposedly "vets" and you still want an "everyone gets something" system - well, as the classic phrase goes... this game is not for you
Mdini wrote: » Did you not read any of the comments? Everyone who posted input are veteran MMO players.
Mdini wrote: » The only possible reason you could like that thoughtless system is if you have a history of being a guild leader or an officer.
Caeryl wrote: » That would depend entirely on how it’s balanced, but I personally would design the system in a way that would grant merit rights to team 1 provided both groups were of the intended encounter size.
Caeryl wrote: » While majority rule might have a place in certain areas (like with loot tagging on a group basis is already set up), splitting contributions across two properly sized groups would reasonably not wreck your chances of pulling merit. It’s when you start having four, five, however many groups all fighting over the boss that you need to devote teams to PvP to prevent merits from being split further if that’s a concern for your group.
Mdini wrote: » I'm not arguing that this game might not be a good fit for me. If its not, that is OK. But I was under the impression they wanted to build this game with player feedback. My feedback, whether you like it or not, is valuable. I'm chatting with many other MMO gamers about this matter outside of this chat, and majority, but not all, agree with a modern loot system due to a history of bs dealing with loot. Other people on this and other forums mention it. Whether you like it or not, it is a thing.
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems.
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful.
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed.
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3
Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong.
no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it.
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. We’re talking about the groups that did earn it. So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout. What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself.
Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. We’re talking about the groups that did earn it. So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout. What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself. no it shouldn't. just join a guild that doesn't do gm/officer abuse. the game will give you different loot options. pick one you like and play with people who like the same one. not everybody should get rewarded, or even rewarded equally anyways. not everybody contributes equally. its nice to get things, but if not, you should keep trying. what happens to those people who managed to pvp and kill everybody trying to kill your pve raiders and take the boss? they never touch the boss or are in the same group as the people killing it but their contribution is significant. how do you reward them? giving the loot to the guild bank and distributing it based on different parameters and merit isn't a bad system.
Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Depraved wrote: » Crivel wrote: » Otr wrote: » Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts. That is not a good thing A guild need to fill to manage a raid. They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot. Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops. don't group with that guild then ;3 Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over. you are only thinking about the immediate consequences, not future ones. A system like that promotes good behavior. this isn't a game where you will be running instances 24/7 and using cross server queues to go into them and never see the same person again (or be stuck with them). you can literally choose who you play with. play wit the good people. your actions have consequences. ruin your reputation in a server and you are doomed. I’m thinking of the overall social atmosphere the game will create if these sort of loot systems are the norm. It’s not about immediate consequences, it’s about how players will not be encouraged or want to cooperate with others because the systems at play are designed to not reward them. You are vastly overestimating how much influence a reputation will have when the large guilds most likely to abuse these systems are already set up to have immense influence over castles/nodes/etc. Most of the community will just shrug and tell slighted players the same thing: ‘well, that’s on you for not picking a group better’ as if it were their fault some people decided to be an ass. As for the other portion of your post, if 1000 people show up to nuke a lvl25 dragon, I would first expect the dragon to scale up significantly so it doesn’t just fall over like a sack of flour. Secondly, many games use some kind of metric to grant looting rights in the event of zerging like that. Whether that’s a fixed amount of damage done, time engaged with the boss, average threat held, healing done, damage mitigated, buffs contributed etc, would be up to the devs, but contributors to a fight should all be rewarded in some way even if it’s only crafting materials they’ll then have to take to a node and craftsperson to turn into something actually useful. again, different game. the game promotes not doing shitty things like that to other people because of the social consequences. it promotes good behaviour. you do that to most people who play ow pvx games and you get perma camped out in the open world, for example. cant do that when you are in instance queues 24/7. 2nd point. raid wont scale depending amount of players., confirmed by steven. all contributors shouldn't be rewarded. as you said, other games do that, not ashes. not everybody is a winner here ;3 Social consequences should exist in addition to gameplay mechanics that minimize abuse potential rather that enable it. They are not a replacement for mindful reward systems, if they even work at all, which they're definitely not going to when that big toxic guild owns a castle or node. Good luck blacklisting the Patron Guild of the economic node. Also, link the source for that change in raid approach, because it would be, in no uncertain terms, extremely idiotic to not have a scale-up mechanic on open world bosses. Not a single person here is after an easy street farming experience, but everyone deserves to be rewards for taking on and defeating challenging content at risk of their time, gear degradation, PvP and PvE death penalties. I'm in full favor of instituting merit requirements to get looting rights as I said before, but that should be handled by the game, not by other players. Players have proven many a time that they cannot responsibly handle those player-controlled loot systems. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. do you think the big toxic guild you mention is gonna invite you when they could invite their own members? please xD these type of games work differently. bosses will be fought over by warring guilds. winning the boss is still important and rewarding even if you don't get an item. not letting your opponents get it its still as good. you will eventually get the item you want. just see it as doing multiple runs of an instance to get that 1% drop or whatever. you don't always get something you need on each run and that's okay. also, no need to link anything. watch the dragon stream again, steven mentioned it in a q & a You're a shining example of why these loot systems are a bad idea. Anti-social behavior is bad for an MMO, and systems that directly encourage that sort of behavior while leaving the majority of contributors with nothing means you're going to have a very sparce population willing to do the difficult content. Why would I or anyone waste hours of time for no gain? Why would I or anyone volunteer to help when the systems at play practically beg the group I'm helping to give me nothing for it? If bosses don't drop much of anything, why would I even care to go fight off another group to deny them it? Oh no, they got one armor piece for their 20man team and a pittance of crafting materials. Whereas if I know there is a large stock of materials on the line because everyone gets Gathering drops and I have a lot of high-level players with maxed Gathering lines, I'll be fighting tooth and nail over control of those bosses to deny other groups looting rights. They can't contribute toward the merit thresholds if they're at respawn, and I stand to gain a lot. Edit: The world boss was confirmed to adjust attacks based on the number of players engaged with it in the stream. Not sure what you were listening to that gave you the idea they wouldn't implement any anti-zerg mechanics. Here, timestamp 01:01:40 https://youtu.be/pfdnNWkUov4?si=rKKhZUK8E5Ncl2-F&t=3700 lmao I've never screwed anyone over loot in my 20 years of mmorpg. I've been screwed sometimes though. what a shining example I am of whats wrong. no, nobody deserves to be rewarded. ppl don't deserve things. they earn it. We’re talking about the groups that did earn it. So far not a single person has tried to claim every single person who so much as breathes on the boss should get a payout. What is being asked for is that the successful raid group actually get rewarded in a way that isn’t prone to gm/office abuse. Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself. no it shouldn't. just join a guild that doesn't do gm/officer abuse. the game will give you different loot options. pick one you like and play with people who like the same one. not everybody should get rewarded, or even rewarded equally anyways. not everybody contributes equally. its nice to get things, but if not, you should keep trying. what happens to those people who managed to pvp and kill everybody trying to kill your pve raiders and take the boss? they never touch the boss or are in the same group as the people killing it but their contribution is significant. how do you reward them? giving the loot to the guild bank and distributing it based on different parameters and merit isn't a bad system. The game should absolutely handle the loot dispersal. Anything beyond the initial distribution can be handled as the guild wants and the guild members will agree to. Crowd funding (we’re asking everyone chip in) vs communism (we’re setting lootmaster and you get no input to how we hand it out)
Veeshan wrote: » If people are so afraid of ninja looters/thief's just make looted items drop on death for 5 minutea after being looted (resource already drop but this would occur with armor pieces aswell). If somone ninja loots from your group kick them out and kill them and reloot it within the 5 minutes, allows players to police themselfs to recover the items
Kleptix wrote: » Everyone gets their own loot
Caeryl wrote: » [ Players shouldn’t have loot control like that, loot distribution should be handled entirely by the game itself.
Caeryl wrote: » Literally who thought it was a good idea to let people kick group mates out of looting rights after a clear???
Chaliux wrote: » Otherwise the question would be: Why should a player performanig good and investing a his time not get a loot? What's the justification here?
Chaliux wrote: » but test phases will show him good feedback - I hope.
