Loot System Changes
Kleptix
Member
Everything from the combat to design was incredible, proving AoC worthy of the true next gen MMO title claim with some minor adjustments needed but I was truly disappointed when I saw the loot system at the end.
I don’t know much about how the need or greed system in this game works but I’ve had both extremely negative to decent experiences across 2 games that share this honor system - Everquest 2 (negative) and Final Fantasy XIV (decent).
Starting with the worst, EQ2 - I ultimately quit the game due to people playing classes like Tank who would roll need on some of the rarest Mage gear that I actually needed. This is incredibly frustrating when allowed and a huge hit to player morale especially when it happens regularly. During the looting phase of the dragon in this preview someone even makes a joke “need, need, need” but this is truly what happens! Whether it’s due to people not understanding that their class doesn’t need the item, needing for an alt or just spiteful, bashing them in the community is simply not enough to deter it. Preventing these types of toxic players from ruining the game for others requires intervention from the devs to put some looting rules in place.
On the other hand is FFXIV - Only the class you are currently playing can need on gear for that class type and if you already have the item, you cannot need. This was a HUGE improvement and made me feel like “I’ll get it next time” rather than “I’ll never get this thing, give up”.
My favorite loot system is Elder Scrolls Online - Everyone gets their own loot! Party members in dungeons / raids can trade or sell their loot to other party members that completed the content for up to an hour after completion. I have yet to find a more rewarding system than this.
To wrap this up, I will never go back to the EQ2 loot system, no matter how great the game looks and plays - it’s a hard NO. I truly hope you amazing devs see this feedback and consider leaning more towards the FFXIV loot model and implement some protections against toxic looting.
Thank you to the dev team for all of your hard work, the passion in this project is very much appreciated!
I don’t know much about how the need or greed system in this game works but I’ve had both extremely negative to decent experiences across 2 games that share this honor system - Everquest 2 (negative) and Final Fantasy XIV (decent).
Starting with the worst, EQ2 - I ultimately quit the game due to people playing classes like Tank who would roll need on some of the rarest Mage gear that I actually needed. This is incredibly frustrating when allowed and a huge hit to player morale especially when it happens regularly. During the looting phase of the dragon in this preview someone even makes a joke “need, need, need” but this is truly what happens! Whether it’s due to people not understanding that their class doesn’t need the item, needing for an alt or just spiteful, bashing them in the community is simply not enough to deter it. Preventing these types of toxic players from ruining the game for others requires intervention from the devs to put some looting rules in place.
On the other hand is FFXIV - Only the class you are currently playing can need on gear for that class type and if you already have the item, you cannot need. This was a HUGE improvement and made me feel like “I’ll get it next time” rather than “I’ll never get this thing, give up”.
My favorite loot system is Elder Scrolls Online - Everyone gets their own loot! Party members in dungeons / raids can trade or sell their loot to other party members that completed the content for up to an hour after completion. I have yet to find a more rewarding system than this.
To wrap this up, I will never go back to the EQ2 loot system, no matter how great the game looks and plays - it’s a hard NO. I truly hope you amazing devs see this feedback and consider leaning more towards the FFXIV loot model and implement some protections against toxic looting.
Thank you to the dev team for all of your hard work, the passion in this project is very much appreciated!
6
Comments
- Free-for-all.
- Lootmaster.
- Round-robin.
- Need or greed
Players can also to be kicked out from the group before the looting starts.https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting
Play in a guild and have less uncertainty.
That is not a good thing
A guild need to fill to manage a raid.
They invite a couple of players, just to kick them before loot starts to ensure the guild gets the loot.
Or any raidleader really who want to make sure his competition is gone before the loot, so he kicks everyone who might need on the same drops.
In need or greed I suspect that maybe 15-20% of the need clicks are just mistakes or being oblivious to what your clicking on because you didn't read the pop up. You see a yellow item and click need...
And make an enemy for life when your tank wins the clothe robes of everlasting mana with ice affinity. Bound to player item.
There is no amount of explaining that I didn't realize that was the loot window. I didn't read it, blah blah blah... You will be hated on .lol
Very little gear will be account bound or soulbound in Ashes of Creation.[2][3]
The game economy is based around crafting and degradation of items.[2]
Thank you for providing a list and link. The problem is, none of these loot options prevent or deter toxic / careless looting and the ability to kick directly promotes it. Let’s be honest, playing in a guild doesn’t change it either - we have all experienced our fair share of toxic leaders / officers. Unfortunately, as long as the option is there, people will take it, whether it’s intentional or not.
In my opinion, honor loot systems are dated for a reason - people don’t enjoy them due to bad experiences. I don’t expect the dev team to completely re-vamp the system so that everyone is entitled to their own loot pool, although that would be my best case scenario, but I do expect there to be rules in place to prevent toxic, ignorant or careless looting.
And it realy came down to in EQ1 u required groups to do things effectivly and you couldnt get name change so if your name got out as a ninja looters you basicly briocked your character since no one will group with your anymore and you cant do anything appart from rerolling.
But since the vast majority of gear is market based, it means I can also grind money in my downtime and just buy it.
Meaning I can run both the content to work towards what I want, and just farm and buy it.
I would hope the few instances of soulbound stuff are already so rare that they arent expected parts of normal wear gear, but that goal gear, the thing that keeps you playin a game because there is always more to get.
Literally who thought it was a good idea to let people kick group mates out of looting rights after a clear??? That’s such a horrible idea.
I don’t think there’s actually a way to compute how negative an experience it is to spend hours upon hours of your time in a raid, succeed, and then get nothing. It doesn’t encourage grouping or being social; it encourages your players to never join in with strangers to help them. It actively makes players more reluctant to engage cooperatively with each other when the tools that exist make it so unbelievably easy for the group lead to screw people over.
At the absolute least every player should get crafting materials based on their ranks in the respective gathering lines, and they should never lose looting rights from getting ninja-kicked after the clears.
Sure I can agree that it doesn’t feel as bad knowing you can buy it, IF they decide to market it rather than bank it for an alt but something doesn’t sit right with me and it’s the effort vs expected reward. If I am a ranger in a group who is providing good dps and a bow that is better than mine drops, I should have a fair chance to be rewarded with good loot. Even if it’s just materials that drop, I want to be rewarded for my effort.
Also, you should not be needing on items that you plan to market or are on a class that cannot use it, that is the definition of greed. Unfortunately a large amount of players do not respect these openly known rules unless they are enforced by the game itself.
I couldn’t agree more. As mentioned in my post - separate loot pools for everyone would be the best way to go about it but Need or Greed with imposed rules is my middle ground approach. Like you, I cannot express how much these systems have made me want to go completely solo or only play when my real life friends are on and that’s few and far between. Ultimately I end up quitting because I do not feel rewarded for my efforts.
The ability to kick people in your group or raid before all of the loot has been looted is flat out wrong and nothing short of encouraging a toxic community.
That one guy that keeps forgetting to click, in every, single instance.
It's not a patticipation trophy kinda game.
It's economy and conflict driven.
I'm saying that because with the system they have right now, there are people that would kill that boss 50 times and get no reward for it. Maybe you conflicted with other players for 30 minutes and then succeed to kill the boss once and don't get any loot. That is trophy because you took risk and succeeded. This is risk vs. reward, no matter the loot system.
FFXIV has a lot of really nice quality of life things about it but if ashes is gonna be so community driven and is essentially a throwback to classic MMOs I don't see how restricting people is going to help the game in this matter. People just need to make sure to record and screenshot this when it happens, call them out and let other people know.
I prefer shaming people over having devs place restrictions in a game. If you can't take the time to deal with these issues yourself why should the dev team. this is a social issue not a gameplay issue
Okay... not gonna happen, what else can I tell you?
Dude I'm here to give feedback based on my opinion. Intrepid does whatever they think it's best for their game and considering they have changed a lot of things based of players' feedback, they can change that as well.
What's more rare, something that drops once at a time or something that drops x20 at a time?
What would create more contest? What would make for a healthier economy?
It's not that the devs should have to deal with every player disagreement. However, the setup they currently have with group-loot only, all the power in the group lead's hands, and the ability to ninja-kick participating group members directly empowers bad actors and the sort of anti-social behavior that's going to discourage cooperation.
Why would I ever join a group to assist when there's (going purely by the preview we just saw) a 90% chance I walk away with absolutely nothing to show for it.
I could also turn your point and ask why there's an option of Lootmaster or Need/Greed when people could just arrange those thing organically after everyone has drawn their loot? After all, it's not the devs job to enforce players to contribute to the group funds. Why is intrepid artificially enforcing charity work as the default for 1/2/etc hours of gameplay commitment?
I agree the gear progression system is completely different but taking good concepts from other games and implementing them in ways that fit your model is typically good and appreciated. Smaashley also mentioned that someone could kill the same boss 50 times and never get loot - just reading that makes me want to quit before I even start.
Unfortunately, the shaming method just doesn’t work in this day and age. There are EQ2 discords dedicated to shaming these people and they still get away with it because majority of gamers don’t look for or engage with drama.
In my opinion, there is no other way to deal with these issues other than developers making sure their systems are inherently fair and rewarding. There is no recourse for ninja looting other than being pissed off. I could kill that player 100 times in pvp and still not get the item or satisfaction. How many times will you be ninja looted in a day then run to post it on a forum before you log off?
I personally don’t see how rewarding players for engaging in difficult content together as a group goes against competition unless you enjoy competing against the same people you are helping. Disagreements over how loot is handled within groups and guilds is ultimately what leads to players leaving in the middle of content and guilds dissolving.
Smaashley also mentioned there being percent chance drop tables which is common in current gen gaming across the board. I would personally stay more engaged knowing there’s a 3% chance of getting a rare drop while mostly getting 80-90% drop green or blue crafting materials.
This system creates a perfectly healthy economy because rare is still rare but instead of alienating half of the community due to their greed or ignorance, you can make friends!
Contest in my opinion should be PvP or leaderboard based, not from within your own group or guild. I find it much more rewarding completing content with friends then using our new gear against enemies or competing with a guild to get the best score in a raid.
That sounds like behaviour typically found in lobby based instanced raiding mmos, in which you queue with ppl you will never play with again.
Here is how the group/guild would deal with it:
We loot a 40 Lv Bow, we have 3 archers, one is 35 one is 45 one is 40.
The 45 would get it to face harder mobs than the 40 guy
or
The Lv40 guy is more active and would make better use of it
or a formal points based guild system (which I dont care for too much) and give it to the guy who is supposed to get it.
Anyway the topic bores me. Suit yourself. When giving feedback dont work towards the opposite direction of what the game tries to achieve.
(And dont mention my opposition to the class system. It's not the same)
So you’re always going to be playing in a full group or raid full of people you know and trust? Never going to join up with randoms while your friends / guildies aren’t on? This goes completely against the direction of every MMO ever made. Guilds are literally made up of strangers who enjoyed playing with one another.
Also, knowing the way your imaginary guild would handle loot, why would I ever join a group if I know I’m not in a position to get loot whether it’s guild points or level based? I would see that you already have a ranger with more guild points or higher level and automatically opt-out and same goes for if I’m on a class that shares loot with a similar class in your group. With 50+ class combinations, that’s a lot of people not joining you!
Some advice for you - when you post on opinion based forums where people are giving feedback on how to better a system, don’t be toxic and just tell people they’re wrong, rather you should provide a helpful or productive opinion otherwise don’t post on it at all.
Do you know what percentage loot table means ? The same item won't drop 20x at a time if there is 1% chance of it dropping. Lots of MMOs have this system like Guild Wars 2 and it doesn't break the economy at all.
I'm sure you're the one that will complain if you never get any drop because your supposedly 'guild mates' take all the loot. The system I'm suggesting isn't about competitiveness or anything else, it's just to be fair for those who took the risk of fighting and succeeded doing so.
don't group with that guild then ;3
Thank you for demonstrating the point. These sort of loot systems discourage players from assisting each other because the game enables very easy, unpunished ways for the group lead to screw people over.
Ah yes competive looting. Everybody be playing melee or dtank rather then ranged or healer. Its great when you die because the healer decides to loot.
But in the end don't play with randoms is the "solution" to all of these problems.
I agree. There is absolutely no reason that every participant of a raid doesn't leave in some fashion stronger or better. As cool as that dragon fight looked, as soon as I saw the loot system, I immediately was reminded of every spoiled instance of having to work with toxic guild leaders, greedy players who had clout, ninja looters, selfish players to get the gear I wanted or needed.
Seriously, if I slay 20 times the same boss and get nothing each time with all that effort, it's discouraging and I can expect people leave the game for that.