It remains strange to count on hope to designs based on a dead game.
And it remains even stranger that this is your only counter argument to anything that L2 players bring up on these forums. You cling to the magical "the game is dead", because you can't seem to argue against the proposed designs in any other way.
Like the killer argument "but Steven wants it", right?
Doing that for your mirror only (but you are not aware of that since days). My arguments and opinions and explanations are all in my postings, there is missing not even one point and if that's the case, than I've decided to leave it because it's not worth discussing it.
Like the killer argument "but Steven wants it", right?
I don't like the design cause Steven wants it. I like it because I have experienced it and prefer it over anything else.
I use "cause Steven wants it" as an argument against huge changes to huge systems because it's HIS game. The game that he has invested millions into. The game that he keeps saying "will not change its core pillars". So when someone comes in and says "your core design is shit, I got a better one" - yes, I will answer "it's Steven game and it should stay the way he designed it to be".
Like the killer argument "but Steven wants it", right?
I don't like the design cause Steven wants it. I like it because I have experienced it and prefer it over anything else.
But you don't know anything else. It's like I'm eating pizza with salami all my life because I have experienced it and prefer it. But you have to eat pizza with other cool things on it.
I use "cause Steven wants it" as an argument against huge changes to huge systems because it's HIS game.
Well no, it's our game. We are the market. No you alone, not Steven. That's no echo chamber, you know. It will not survive if he will be stoic and he will not listend to the MMO players out there.
You will not have an advantage if playerbase shrinks fast, believe me. The game will be dead also for you then.
I will continue to state "L2 is dead", just because it's a fact and the result that this game desired, obviously. And IF the market really would like to have this L2-copy believe me it already would be out there since years.
You lack an open minded approach for different experiences, ideas, opinions and critical feedback once it is out of the bubble and not just "wow, that's amazing".
I followed several live streams.
In on live stream (guess just the one end of August) he was talking about weopens. First he said, he will not explain the entire page (and I thought: Good thing man, because thats basics in EVERY MMO and also skill-tree stuff is just like in New World) but they guys in the chat were hyped and euphoric as the heard this the first time ever in their life. It was so otherworldly and incredibly strange.
And as hundres of guys asked for the spear (obviously a weapon liked from the community, well it is a very very cool weapon in new world, really) he was not even reacting. He was talking about having one-hand maces in the game. Like MMO have them since year 2000+. I mean, what to say. Blind followership.
But you don't know anything else. It's like I'm eating pizza with salami all my life because I have experienced it and prefer it. But you have to eat pizza with other cool things on it.
I have played WoW, FF14, BDO, GW2, Tera, NW - none of them beyond 60h because none of them had anything interesting for me.
And I don't need to know how a game w/o pvp works, because that's literally every single player game out there, except there's a ton of annoying people around that are trying to get the same resources as you and you can't even do anything about it. I know that I dislike that even w/o trying the game. But I confirmed that opinion by playing WoW and NW.
As I keep saying and you keep ignoring - this will be a niche game. Niche things exist and are successful within their niche. Steven knows it's gonna be a niche game and he's ok with that.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Nope. It's like there is a restaurant with a menu which lists entrees with their ingredients.
I order something from the menu and before I can even taste, you say that's going to taste like crap and you try to convince the chefs to bring me something different than what I ordered.
And I'm saying... at least let me taste what I ordered first so I can determine how well I like it. After I taste it, we can give the chefs tips on how to tweak the meal to better suit what I like.
It's Steven's restauraunt. It's Steven's chefs. It's Steven's menu.
If you look at the menu and decide you won't like the food - there are other restaurants out there.
I would like to taste what Steven has on the menu before people start demanding changes to the menu.
I have played WoW, FF14, BDO, GW2, Tera, NW - none of them beyond 60h because none of them had anything interesting for me.
Then you didn't play them, you just launched them. Well with WoW, FF14, GW2 (and ESO) you really missed huge MMO success stories out there. But that's was your choice. There are also players that never played Mass Effect, or The Witcher, or Red Dead Redemption, or Baldurs Gate - that's just fine, but missing milestones sometimes is unlucky if talking about broad experience.
And I don't need to know how a game w/o pvp works, because that's literally every single player game out there, except there's a ton of annoying people around that are trying to get the same resources as you and you can't even do anything about it.
Such games got easy solutions for that when it comes to respawn time, location or also like "resource is not gone just because someone else gathered it before". There is a huge field of meaningful options that gets fun into the game and not limits, disappointments and waste of time.
As I keep saying and you keep ignoring - this will be a niche game. Niche things exist and are successful within their niche. Steven knows it's gonna be a niche game and he's ok with that.
Niche games are not successful, not popular and all of them die a slower or faster death.
No serious human would accept that and still would be, like a child, insist of not listening and learning.
Still only agree to disagree. And this will not change. But go on :-)
There are also players that never played Mass Effect, or The Witcher, or Red Dead Redemption, or Baldurs Gate - that's just fine, but missing milestones sometimes is unlucky if talking about broad experience.
And I've played none of those because they don't interest me. Different people have different tastes. I'm glad that all of those games are successful and a ton of people love them - I'm still not interested in spending my time in them.
The exact same applies to Ashes and other mmos. I'm not interested in spending ungodly amounts of time just to "not just launch them". I'd rather play a game that I like and am interested in. And I want Ashes to be that game.
Such games got easy solutions for that when it comes to respawn time, location or also like "resource is not gone just because someone else gathered it before". There is a huge field of meaningful options that gets fun into the game and not limits, disappointments and waste of time.
Yes, and as you said, there's already a ton of games with those exact mechanics. I'm not interested in them. I want a competitive mmo where I gotta fight and compete for my rewards. Ashes promised to be such an mmo, which is why I got interested in it.
Niche games are not successful, not popular and all of them die a slower or faster death.
No serious human would accept that and still would be, like a child, insist of not listening and learning.
Yes, metal has not been a successful genre of music. Which is definitely why it has survived for over 50 years.
And stuff like EVE definitely hasn't survived for more than 2 decades being a hardcore owpvp mmo.
Also, if your only measurement of success is WoW and FF14, then that means that literally every other mmo is dead, because none of them came even close to either of those games. And considering that there's been way more pve mmos out there, I guess pve mmos have died way more than the pvp ones.
Yes, metal has not been a successful genre of music. Which is definitely why it has survived for over 50 years.
Incorrect.
"metal" is a comparion like "MMO". If, you must talk about bands within metal. And there are bands doing it 50 year (the WoW, FF14, GW2 and ESO bands) and bands that are dead or only heared from 1% of all humans. Nobody cares, really.
Btw., I'm listening to metal. But also other music. Broad experience in music and different genres, you know. That's helpful if you know more than one or two topics in life, because it changes perspectives, knowledge, point of views and helps for better differentiation.
And stuff like EVE definitely hasn't survived for more than 2 decades being a hardcore owpvp mmo.
exceptions prove the rule. Thanks for the exception.
And, there is a completely other reason for that, maybe just unkown for you: It's no high fantasy game with sword & board and magic, but sci-fi, so a completely different setting. And that's why those sci-fi fans like it.
Also, if your only measurement of success is WoW and FF14, then that means that literally every other mmo is dead
I would defenitly add GW2 and ESO but all the rest. Yes, is dead. They are from no good quality, no good design, nobody wants to play them. So yes, in all means, that's a fact.
The 1% that enjoy those bands care. But it's obvious that YOU don't care about those people. Which is hella ironic considering how much you've tried to be a proponent of "thinking of the poor solo players!!"
all the rest. Yes, is dead. They are from no good quality, no good design, nobody wants to play them. So yes, in all means, that's a fact.
Awesome, then I suggest you go play wow, ff14 and maybe even gw2 and eso, if you only care about the successful mmos.
It's funny that you keep mentioning elitism and how it's soooo bad, but then you disregard dozens of games that thousands upon thousands of people love, purely because not enough flies has landed on their particular sort of shit
The 1% that enjoy those bands care. But it's obvious that YOU don't care about those people. Which is hella ironic considering how much you've tried to be a proponent of "thinking of the poor solo players!!"
In terms of an online game, also solo players matter and should not be poor - that's right and will be true also in the future. They are NOT 1% of the market - and you will see, hear and feel that in the next months Just be patient. But at least you understood "metal" and "MMO", that's good.
Awesome, then I suggest you go play wow, ff14 and maybe even gw2 and eso, if you only care about the successful mmos.
I did, really really cool games. Thanks for your suggestion. Or maybe I'm still playing it?
Does this mean I'm not allowed to play something else or different? If yes, why? You will tell me this?
I propose: Play L2. Oh, I'm sorry.
Or the rest of it still being available..? Private servers or something? Just go for it. That's your game. There is no need to copy it again, as we empirically know what will be the result later on.
Don't do exlcusion just some more experienced MMO players are coming to get into Ashes.
It's funny that you keep mentioning elitism and how it's soooo bad, but then you disregard dozens of games that thousands upon thousands of people love, purely because not enough flies has landed on their particular sort of shit
Flies have a reason why they land there. There is no reason the land somewhere irrelevant.
In large scale MMO the amount of players counts, that's the main goal. Get a lot of players and keep them. It's not meaningful from business point of view or gameplay point of view to have only a minority of players in a game depending on having a lot of players doing different stuff that things are working together. Your niche talk (only to follow holy Steven) just makes no sense for the health of the game. For you only the bubble and echo chamber counts. If there are only 500 players but they are the hardcore pvp elitists than everything is perfect. But it's not. You know what happens to MMOs like this. Just look on the market, beside the ones I've mentioned to you, all the rest is the real shit, that shit, that even flies don't want to land there
Play L2 or the rest of it still being available. Private servers or something? Just go for it. That's your game. Don't do exlcusion just some more experienced MMO players are coming to get into Ashes.
Ashes in its current state will be closer to the L2 I want to play than the L2 that's available right now, which is exactly why I want to keep Ashes the way that it was promised to be.
If there are only 500 players but they are the hardcore pvp elitists than everything is perfect. But it's not. You know what happens to MMOs like this. Just look on the market, beside the ones I've mentioned to you, all the rest is the real shit, that shit, that even flies don't want to land there
I've already listed the games whose players would be more than interested in Ashes. And collectively those players would be more than enough to let Intrepid keep developing the game for years to come.
Ashes in its current state will be closer to the L2 I want to play than the L2 that's available right now, which is exactly why I want to keep Ashes the way that it was promised to be.
But other players want other features, it's not only about you. A lot of other MMO players will provide this feedback soon and as iterations are wanted and feedback asked for, exactly this will happen. And to ignore it to stay in the bubble and own echo chamber will even make the situation more worse and the reputation will be ruined.
Play L2, really. If it was not good enough for you, you should have learned out of that experience why that is the case and why it will happen again, if the same is repeated. Vas from Farcry would call that insanity.
"Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change... That. Is. Crazy."
I've already listed the games whose players would be more than interested in Ashes. And collectively those players would be more than enough to let Intrepid keep developing the game for years to come.
But they still play EVE because they like it and its not dead (for instance). And it's in a completely different setting (also already mentioned that to you, read carefully). The rest... BDO? Really? P2W trash MMO for unemployed toxic players? Come on, pls. Look on the market what a real, good, solid and professional MMO needs to offer to get nice players, mass of players and lots of entertainment. That's the goal and not copying a dead game with (sometimes) doubtful designs. That's nonsense and will always be nonsense, independent from the fact that 5% of all MMO players insist of something different without having enough experience to know that.
But other players want other features, it's not only about you. A lot of other MMO players will provide this feedback soon and as iterations are wanted and feedback asked for, exactly this will happen. And to ignore it to stay in the bubble and own echo chamber will even make the situation more worse and the reputation will be ruined.
Play L2, really. If it was not good enough for you, you should have learned out of that experience why that is the case and why it will happen again, if the same is repeated. Vas from Farcry would call that insanity.
And I keep telling you, that feedback has already been given years ago and every damn year since. Nothing will change during A2. No new type of feedback will be given, because Intrepid have already heard it all, and they still want to make the game that Steven designed.
All those other players can play dozens of mmos that are designed exactly how they like. Ashes will be designed for the people that have similar tastes to mine.
But they still play EVE because they like it and its not dead (for instance). And it's in a completely different setting (also already mentioned that to you, read carefully). The rest... BDO? Really? P2W trash MMO for unemployed toxic players? Come on, pls. Look on the market what a real, good, solid and professional MMO needs to offer to get nice players, mass of players and lots of entertainment. That's the goal and not copying a dead game with (sometimes) doubtful designs. That's nonsense and will always be nonsense, independent from the fact that 5% of all MMO players insist of something different without having enough experience to know that.
Have you heard of PirateSoftware? He already has over 10k people interested in his plan for Ashes. That's already a full concurrent server just from him alone. And a ton of those people come from EVE, because EVE's devs have been making dumb decisions as well, just as NCsoft did which inevitably led to the decline of L2.
And I mentioned BDO (and other "dead" games) exactly because they had players with similar tastes to mine, but failed those players because the dev company kept making shitty decisions.
Steven's goal is to avoid those shitty decisions, while making a game that appeals to players that have been forgotten by their devs. Changing Ashes into a yet another WoW would simply betray all the promises Steven has made throughout the years and would also make it die within a few months, because a wow-like only appeals to wow-like players, who will inevitably leave to their owner, who'll keep beating them with a stick, as Blizz have been doing for a decade now.
And I keep telling you, that feedback has already been given years ago and every damn year since. Nothing will change during A2. No new type of feedback will be given, because Intrepid have already heard it all, and they still want to make the game that Steven designed.
We will see. There will be no other feedback because there are potential customers that paid to get entrance for testing and thus it's a selected group of players that will provide only the feedback that interpid wants to hear. The majority of MMO players will follow later on and also all players that are not paying money for promises instead of results.
Ashes will be designed for the people that have similar tastes to mine.
Time will show. You don't like everything in Ashes, that's valid also for other players.
Have you heard of PirateSoftware? He already has over 10k people interested in his plan for Ashes. That's already a full concurrent server just from him alone. And a ton of those people come from EVE, because EVE's devs have been making dumb decisions as well, just as NCsoft did which inevitably led to the decline of L2.
I've heared all the viral critism about it when it comes to mega guilds dominating everything which will disadvantage all others. And 10k is a forecast, will only be a fact and true if that's happening at release in 2-3 (?) years. Things change. Life and humans change. We will see
And I mentioned BDO (and other "dead" games) exactly because they had players with similar tastes to mine, but failed those players because the dev company kept making shitty decisions.
Yeah, that's sounds familiar if thinking about some design decisions in Ashes. Very true. Let's hope that they learn from that from games that didn fail.
Well, I'll implore anyone who really wants Ashes to change, to look at Throne and Liberty carefully right now.
Not the ones who love Ashes as it is, not the ones who 'want to see where it goes.
If you're coming onto the forums concerned that Ashes is making mistakes and needs to change something, check if TL has already 'done it the way you want it'. In the end, even though these two MMOs are almost certainly going to converge over time, both games are better served by choosing a side, and so is the market for players.
If you hate TL, wait for Ashes, if you think Ashes is making mistakes, play TL. Encourage complainers in either game to go to the other. Only then would we have a chance of even getting to discuss actual issues in either game instead of 'stuff someone doesn't like'.
There will be no other feedback because there are potential customers that paid to get entrance for testing and thus it's a selected group of players that will provide only the feedback that interpid wants to hear. The majority of MMO players will follow later on and also all players that are not paying money for promises instead of results.
Nah, I'm saying that the majority will definitely complain about the designs that are disliked by said majority (especially on Asmon streams and the like). But none of that feedback will be something that Intrepid haven't heard before.
I've only been following for 4 years and I've already seen pretty much every possible complaint about pvp, big guilds, freeholds, open dungeons, leveling speeds, class design, skillsets, gear design, loot rules, monetization, etc etc etc.
And Intrepid have had all that feedback summarized by their mods and presented to the team. And yet even in these past 4 years Steven has went even deeper into those designs, with the open seas change, with making freeholds a lvl50 auction thing, node ruins being a pvp zone, glint and commodities that can multiply through caravans which are inherently party-based - all of which will be hated by the pver WoW crowd.
And it's exactly this doubling down that leads me to believe that none of the core pillars will change simply because people outside of AoC's target audience scream at Steven to change them.
Nah, I'm saying that the majority will definitely complain about the designs that are disliked by said majority (especially on Asmon streams and the like). But none of that feedback will be something that Intrepid haven't heard before.
It will get more intensive than until now and it will lead to financial consequences (other than now), so it WILL have more impact than in promise and development phase. It's a company. There is responsibility for employees. "Its Stevens game" is just wrong. He is responsible. This is no playingground for childs doing what they want as long as they want and ignoring other persons on that playingground that also join the field.
I've only been following for 4 years and I've already seen pretty much every possible complaint about pvp, big guilds, freeholds, open dungeons, leveling speeds, class design, skillsets, gear design, loot rules, monetization, etc etc etc.
Sure, and this will go on, but the major part always will be the pvp part and thus all the consequences in all surrounding contents and design. If that part disadvanteges and harasses players more than they benefit, then they will quit and the overall health of the game decreases due to a lack of players - players, that are needed, that those systems work. It's a vicious circle and intrepid must watch it with responsibilty - not ignore it in an artificial bubble.
And Intrepid have had all that feedback summarized by their mods and presented to the team. And yet even in these past 4 years Steven has went even deeper into those designs, with the open seas change, with making freeholds a lvl50 auction thing, node ruins being a pvp zone, glint and commodities that can multiply through caravans which are inherently party-based - all of which will be hated by the pver WoW crowd.
Most of this stuff seems fine in general for me (WoW pvp and pve player ) Some content I will probably not play (like sea fights), some things I will probable don't reach or seems waste of time for me (because of regression happening if the game is stealing my progress/time), but that has nothing to do with WOW but with respecting player time and fair game designs.
It will get more intensive than until now and it will lead to financial consequences (other than now), so it WILL have more impact than in promise and development phase. It's a company. There is responsibility for employees. "Its Stevens game" is just wrong. He is responsible. This is no playingground for childs doing what they want as long as they want and ignoring other persons on that playingground that also join the field.
And it's exactly because it's Steven game that he has invested 60mil of his own money into it and has upkept its development for 7 years now.
And there's been at least 100k people that have already liked the current design enough to monetrality support it.
And the only monetary impact that dislikers will have on the game will happen after release, at which point it's gonna be too late to change the game as drastically as they would want. And before release there's no way for those people to somehow influence Intrepid monetarily (well, other than buying the keys, which is a positive influence).
some things I will probable don't reach or seems waste of time for me (because of regression happening if the game is stealing my progress/time), but that has nothing to do with WOW but with respecting player time and fair game designs.
Oh, right, I completely forgot, like, the biggest oldschool design part of the game Death penalties. Oh, people have been complaaaaining about that one. I've seen probably a good 5-10 "fixes" over the years.
And I'd be real interested in seeing how exactly you'll avoid interacting with anything that can kill you in the game, when pve will supposedly be hard enough to do that and pvp will inevitable do that Kinda sounds like you'll just be doing artisanry. That's a totally valid gameplay style, so definitely gl to you
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Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Ashes of Creation is a PvX game built on the foundational principle of risk versus reward. The developers may seek feedback and make changes to portions of the game, but the core design pillars of the game will never be changed.[8][9][10][11][12]
We will refine systems, we will iterate on systems, but we will never change the core identity of the intent and philosophical approach to what Ashes of Creation as an MMO brings to the MMO genre space... What we want to do is express that Ashes of Creation is endeavoring to build a risk-versus-reward centric PvX style game. And that intent and purpose will be delivered upon, and it will not change.[11] – Steven Sharif
And it's exactly because it's Steven game that he has invested 60mil of his own money into it and has upkept its development for 7 years now.
Quite normal for a huge MMO, nothing special to be honest, not even impressing. Just avarage and by using UE as engine even expensive. As I've said several times, I really really would like to see the company books and financial situation. Leading a company means to know about some basic economically stuff.
And there's been at least 100k people that have already liked the current design enough to monetrality support it.
Nice for singleplayer games, very bad for a MMO.
Money was not enough - see Alpha Keys ("game is already financed")
Oh, right, I completely forgot, like, the biggest oldschool design part of the game Death penalties. Oh, people have been complaaaaining about that one. I've seen probably a good 5-10 "fixes" over the years.
It's not survival game, correct. Wasting and stealing time of the player is by defalut bad design. If someone is masochistic that's understandable, but it will not transfer this to normal behaviour. The majority of players don't like regression and frustration, but progression and fun. Nothing special about it also here, but just normal.
And I'd be real interested in seeing how exactly you'll avoid interacting with anything that can kill you in the game, when pve will supposedly be hard enough to do that and pvp will inevitable do that Kinda sounds
like you'll just be doing artisanry. That's a totally valid gameplay style, so definitely gl to you
Artisanry is great! Whats wrong with it?
Searching for a mass guild with 24/7 unemployed guys that will carry me with mass-scale zerg pvp trough all the content. Fore sure there are some of them available in Europe.
But, as this thread shows: There is enough pve, solo and whatsover content so I don't understand your concerns. This game is for everybody!
I jused again checked the slogan on the offical website:
Experience an MMORPG where everything is permanently impacted by your actions – explore, trade, build, and let the world take form.
This sounds like the perfect hardcore elitis pvp game I'm searching for. Good thing there is something on the market like this, because that's what everybody is searchin for and thats why this slogan should attract them all! That's a good thing, phu.
Quite normal for a huge MMO, nothing special to be honest, not even impressing. Just avarage and by using UE as engine even expensive. As I've said several times, I really really would like to see the company books and financial situation. Leading a company means to know about some basic economically stuff.
No, self-funding 60mil to make an mmo is definitely not a "quite normal" situation.
Nice for singleplayer games, very bad for a MMO.
Money was not enough - see Alpha Keys ("game is already financed")
It's 100k people that spend $250 at the least. Which is the same as having 1.6mil subs on release. And I do believe that 1.6mil people is more than good for an mmo.
No, self-funding 60mil to make an mmo is definitely not a "quite normal" situation.
No, putting that amount of mil in a MMO is nothing special - that was my point here.
That Steven is rich is something fully irrelevant for me, several game developers are rich (or meanwhile rich). You probably now Swen Vincke?
Nice for singleplayer games, very bad for a MMO.
Money was not enough - see Alpha Keys ("game is already financed")
It's 100k people that spend $250 at the least. Which is the same as having 1.6mil subs on release. And I do believe that 1.6mil people is more than good for an mmo.[/quote]
Player amounts at release are fully irrelevant for any MMO out there. Fully. Proven every time. What is important is only how many players are playing the game still after 6 month. As you can see on the MMO market, the answer is simple.
That Steven is rich is something fully irrelevant for me, several game developers are rich (or meanwhile rich). You probably now Swen Vincke?
Know of him, but didn't know he was rich. And afaik Larian had to go looking for investors, because they were on the brink of bankruptcy at some point (or maybe it was several points even?).
And while they were lucky enough for those investors not to mess up their vision, for most games that is not the case. And Steven being a very rich person matters here, exactly because he can avoid that investor influence. And he can keep saying the stuff that Ayevee posted.
And the 25mil from those 100k people (and whoever knows how much more from other pricepoints) is simply player-based "investments" saying "make your game".
And as for player retention - that usually depends on the quality of the game rather than purely its designs. A good release would pull in a ton of people, which is a ton of money, which means that the studio can survive past the inevitable drop of players.
We've had a million concurrent in NW and LA in the recent years. Both of those games fumbled their release. One through numerous bugs, broken servers and broken client, and the other through countless bots that ruined any semblance of economy (also one of the biggest reasons why L2 died in the west). And there's been no other recent mmo of good quality to truly show what a "normal" playerbase decline looks like in this day and age.
Also, NW's downfall was at least partially due to its very late shift in design direction due to all the same feedback you're implying Ashes will have. That shift led to devs not having enough time to properly restructure the game, which resulted in the stuff I mentioned above and the absolute lack of good content. The game lost all its niche appeal by trying to attract all the modern gamers.
And implementing the kind of changes that the "majority" will ask for would lead to either the same fate as NW or to godknowshowmany additional years of development. We're already 7 years deep, with maybe 3-4 of those being proper good years. Making a huge shift would add another 3-4 at the very least, because any kind of balancing that Intrepid might've planned for the current design will have flown out the window and they'd need to start from scratch.
* siiiigh * ... ... this complete Shitshow of a Topic ... ...
We all know it will not be a SOLO Player Game.
And we all also know that we will find out the true Extent of the Game Play only in Alpha Two at earliest.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm not sure what the continuing argument is.
Vaknar will funnel suggestions from the Forums to the dev team like he does every week.
Steven is not going to make changes to cater to "Soloers" until he gets feedback from A2.
exactly because he can avoid that investor influence
This assumes that this is bad or always bad, but it's not.
From player perspective investors ensure that usually budget, high production quality and timeline hold. Those are good aspects in professional software development projects of that complexity.
Yes, this means that the full freedom of doing what you want by your own is gone, but that's the developer perspective. I prefer the player perspective and I really like plans about budget and timelines - that hold. This is crucial for me personally, I don't like promises and missing commitments. Iterations and delay just increases expecatations that perfection is reached then, which never will be the case. Waiting 10years long (so knowing it from the start) gets high expecations as results - so the quality must be perfect in the end, especially if that's the focus: Quality > Time. We will see, if that promise will hold in a IT project like this. Heard that hundred times before, seen it equally often not happening.
I'm sure thats (the next) point were we agree to disagree, as you (I assume) already paid money to intrepid and you dont care if the games releases in 2026 or 2028. You follow the promises and ideas.
For me that's not enough. I'm not paying a promise or an unfinished product with my money with that little to no influence. I'm doing investments (but for other business), but I can control and really decide then. As this part is missing for me I see no reason why I should pay something unfinished in advance which even has no fixed time scale or transparent financial situation (from company overall).
So, investors/publishers are nothing bad, really. It depends on the point of view and access to this topic.
Throwing in "Ubisoft" (or whatever) doestn't change anything, because you can at least - if you like their games - rely on high production quality and solid time plans and replenishment of game series that you like ("next album from the metal band you love").
So, that's why, again, for me it's neither impressive nor special or important, that it is Steven (or Kevin, or Donald, or...), but only that a huge next MMO is coming out attracting (with this current marketing on website and showcases) all types of players in a high-fantasy setting with 3rd person characters with different races and classes, solid gameplay/combat mechanics (action combat + targeting), pvp AND pve content and thus choices what to play depending on the particual situation with or without guildies/friends. That's why I'm watching, that's what I'm hopeing, but it's no personal cult for me following a person or whatever - it's just one promising MMO combining pvp and pve as I don't want to only have one content type of it.
So, that's why, again, for me it's neither impressive nor special or important, that it is Steven (or Kevin, or Donald, or...), but only that a huge next MMO is coming out attracting (with this current marketing on website and showcases) all types of players in a high-fantasy setting with 3rd person characters with different races and classes, solid gameplay/combat mechanics (action combat + targeting), pvp AND pve content and thus choices what to play depending on the particual situation with or without guildies/friends. That's why I'm watching, that's what I'm hopeing, but it's no personal cult for me following a person or whatever - it's just one promising MMO combining pvp and pve as I don't want to only have one content type of it.
Ashes isn't made for everyone.
It's going to be relatively niche.
And... it will release when it's ready. Or become vaporware.
Experience an MMORPG where everything is permanently impacted
by your actions – explore, trade, build, and let the world take form. From your imagination through your will and into everyone's reality, what you create will be the cornerstone of the next explorer’s ambition.
Some progression paths will be more immediately achievable, which are more suited to casual players.
Other progression paths will require a significant time investment, which casual players will take longer to achieve than hardcore players
Longer, but not "not".
Ashes of Creation will cater for a variety of player types from Raiders or PvPers to Role players and Crafters
So Ahses by its own definition wants all player types, all of them.
I'm in for sure, because I'm a casual pvp player. Sounds strange? But that's realiy. I like pvp, I dont have a lot of time (1-3 hours a day at max in the evening, but not every evening). There will be countless players like me and the game needs them to work smoothly.
Traditionally in MMORPGs you're going to see a larger population of casual players than you do of hardcore players; and that's just the way the cookie crumbles from a population standpoint. And because of that and the way that nodes collect experience and advance as a result of player activity, those casual players will actually have more impact on node progression than the hardcore players will
This is a Steven for you. He provides one good example. The wants those players, he NEEDs those players. The game will not work without. Your "not made for everyone" is marketing speech, just rhetorical stuff only naive humans are even listeing.
The developers want Ashes of Creation to appeal to both younger and older generations of MMO gamers
This is very very essential. It's crucial. If you think this game will only be done from 20-35aged guys growing up with L2 as teenager or whatever, you are absolutely wrong. By contrast, it will attract 40y+ until open end age to play this MMO as they want to play it. And nearly all of them just share one same opinion: Having a funny gameplay, without getting disturbed from others (like the young toxic player fulfilling his wet virtual dreams by compensating success in real life). That is the majority. That will be the core playerbase wide over 50%. The niche you are talking about are only the niche gamers (some percentage) playing this game like a hard competetive business job for 10h a day. All the other players are playing this game in their sparetime in the afternoon/eveneing and a bit at the weekend, because it attracts mature humans, family persons, guys that are in solid well-payed jobs. There is no "this game is not for you" - wrong. It's PER DEFINTION for those gamers. It's neither fortnite, nor LoL or a survival game - and also not L2 copy.
Its ONLY you (some in this forums) that only want a small and very very special playerbase.
I'm sorry, but you are not correct. If you think so, please be author in the wiki and correct all the articles there and the webpage information from official developers. You hold onto a dream which will not come true.
It's going to be relatively niche.
Makes no sense form an economical point of view. intrepid is a company, so profit counts. Thats the responsibliy (!) af the companys boss and taking care (by law, company contracts) of his employees not to push it against the wall for huge unemployment.
And... it will release when it's ready. Or become vaporware.
When it's done is unprofessional at this large scale. This is no garage programming from clowns. Take responsiblity and do commitments as this is done in professional mature business.
I mean, I'm the best example and countless are the same.
I'm an average guy loving playing MMOs since decades. Well-situated in real life with family, kids and few, but real friends (not the social media ones, I'm talking about the real ones) and quite everything already available what you can buy with money as good business man (but without fully being rich, I work hard for my money, but don't miss anything from a monetary perspective). What I lack is only one thing: Time.
But still this game, Ashes, attracts me. Why? Because of the same things it's attracting you: Promises.
I count of all the things Steven said and that is documented in the Wiki. But only from a completely different direction as a L2 pvp player. And I'm respecting this fully but I expect that this also is done the other way round. I dont want to hear exclusion allegations, I want to hear inclusion and cooperative gameplay mechanics to fullfill the promises for casuals and non-casual players. I'm (quite) ok in playing pvp, not the best, not the worst. I like it. But only to a certain degree and only if I want to do it and get reward out of it - somehow. This is not strange expectations, it's a normal one. And the game is promising, that I can play this game casual, with pve or pvp content and with or without groups. And this mix must work, if not, I'm gone. That's easy - I'm not engaged to it, I will not pay one Euro for it before my first sub-fee. I will watch and work together with other fans (like me) that this is no full L2 copy and no playing ground for toxic players that like the situation, that the virtual e-peen is bigger than the real one in real life.
Comments
Doing that for your mirror only (but you are not aware of that since days). My arguments and opinions and explanations are all in my postings, there is missing not even one point and if that's the case, than I've decided to leave it because it's not worth discussing it.
I use "cause Steven wants it" as an argument against huge changes to huge systems because it's HIS game. The game that he has invested millions into. The game that he keeps saying "will not change its core pillars". So when someone comes in and says "your core design is shit, I got a better one" - yes, I will answer "it's Steven game and it should stay the way he designed it to be".
Well no, it's our game. We are the market. No you alone, not Steven. That's no echo chamber, you know. It will not survive if he will be stoic and he will not listend to the MMO players out there.
You will not have an advantage if playerbase shrinks fast, believe me. The game will be dead also for you then.
I will continue to state "L2 is dead", just because it's a fact and the result that this game desired, obviously. And IF the market really would like to have this L2-copy believe me it already would be out there since years.
You lack an open minded approach for different experiences, ideas, opinions and critical feedback once it is out of the bubble and not just "wow, that's amazing".
I followed several live streams.
In on live stream (guess just the one end of August) he was talking about weopens. First he said, he will not explain the entire page (and I thought: Good thing man, because thats basics in EVERY MMO and also skill-tree stuff is just like in New World) but they guys in the chat were hyped and euphoric as the heard this the first time ever in their life. It was so otherworldly and incredibly strange.
And as hundres of guys asked for the spear (obviously a weapon liked from the community, well it is a very very cool weapon in new world, really) he was not even reacting. He was talking about having one-hand maces in the game. Like MMO have them since year 2000+. I mean, what to say. Blind followership.
And I don't need to know how a game w/o pvp works, because that's literally every single player game out there, except there's a ton of annoying people around that are trying to get the same resources as you and you can't even do anything about it. I know that I dislike that even w/o trying the game. But I confirmed that opinion by playing WoW and NW.
As I keep saying and you keep ignoring - this will be a niche game. Niche things exist and are successful within their niche. Steven knows it's gonna be a niche game and he's ok with that.
I order something from the menu and before I can even taste, you say that's going to taste like crap and you try to convince the chefs to bring me something different than what I ordered.
And I'm saying... at least let me taste what I ordered first so I can determine how well I like it. After I taste it, we can give the chefs tips on how to tweak the meal to better suit what I like.
It's Steven's restauraunt. It's Steven's chefs. It's Steven's menu.
If you look at the menu and decide you won't like the food - there are other restaurants out there.
I would like to taste what Steven has on the menu before people start demanding changes to the menu.
Such games got easy solutions for that when it comes to respawn time, location or also like "resource is not gone just because someone else gathered it before". There is a huge field of meaningful options that gets fun into the game and not limits, disappointments and waste of time.
Niche games are not successful, not popular and all of them die a slower or faster death.
No serious human would accept that and still would be, like a child, insist of not listening and learning.
Still only agree to disagree. And this will not change. But go on :-)
The exact same applies to Ashes and other mmos. I'm not interested in spending ungodly amounts of time just to "not just launch them". I'd rather play a game that I like and am interested in. And I want Ashes to be that game.
Yes, and as you said, there's already a ton of games with those exact mechanics. I'm not interested in them. I want a competitive mmo where I gotta fight and compete for my rewards. Ashes promised to be such an mmo, which is why I got interested in it.
Yes, metal has not been a successful genre of music. Which is definitely why it has survived for over 50 years.
And stuff like EVE definitely hasn't survived for more than 2 decades being a hardcore owpvp mmo.
Also, if your only measurement of success is WoW and FF14, then that means that literally every other mmo is dead, because none of them came even close to either of those games. And considering that there's been way more pve mmos out there, I guess pve mmos have died way more than the pvp ones.
"metal" is a comparion like "MMO". If, you must talk about bands within metal. And there are bands doing it 50 year (the WoW, FF14, GW2 and ESO bands) and bands that are dead or only heared from 1% of all humans. Nobody cares, really.
Btw., I'm listening to metal. But also other music. Broad experience in music and different genres, you know. That's helpful if you know more than one or two topics in life, because it changes perspectives, knowledge, point of views and helps for better differentiation.
exceptions prove the rule.
And, there is a completely other reason for that, maybe just unkown for you: It's no high fantasy game with sword & board and magic, but sci-fi, so a completely different setting. And that's why those sci-fi fans like it.
I would defenitly add GW2 and ESO but all the rest. Yes, is dead. They are from no good quality, no good design, nobody wants to play them. So yes, in all means, that's a fact.
Awesome, then I suggest you go play wow, ff14 and maybe even gw2 and eso, if you only care about the successful mmos.
It's funny that you keep mentioning elitism and how it's soooo bad, but then you disregard dozens of games that thousands upon thousands of people love, purely because not enough flies has landed on their particular sort of shit
I did, really really cool games. Thanks for your suggestion. Or maybe I'm still playing it?
Does this mean I'm not allowed to play something else or different? If yes, why? You will tell me this?
I propose: Play L2. Oh, I'm sorry.
Or the rest of it still being available..? Private servers or something? Just go for it. That's your game. There is no need to copy it again, as we empirically know what will be the result later on.
Don't do exlcusion just some more experienced MMO players are coming to get into Ashes.
Flies have a reason why they land there. There is no reason the land somewhere irrelevant.
In large scale MMO the amount of players counts, that's the main goal. Get a lot of players and keep them. It's not meaningful from business point of view or gameplay point of view to have only a minority of players in a game depending on having a lot of players doing different stuff that things are working together. Your niche talk (only to follow holy Steven) just makes no sense for the health of the game. For you only the bubble and echo chamber counts. If there are only 500 players but they are the hardcore pvp elitists than everything is perfect. But it's not. You know what happens to MMOs like this. Just look on the market, beside the ones I've mentioned to you, all the rest is the real shit, that shit, that even flies don't want to land there
I've already listed the games whose players would be more than interested in Ashes. And collectively those players would be more than enough to let Intrepid keep developing the game for years to come.
Play L2, really. If it was not good enough for you, you should have learned out of that experience why that is the case and why it will happen again, if the same is repeated. Vas from Farcry would call that insanity.
"Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is? Insanity is doing the exact... same fucking thing... over and over again expecting... shit to change... That. Is. Crazy."
But they still play EVE because they like it and its not dead (for instance). And it's in a completely different setting (also already mentioned that to you, read carefully). The rest... BDO? Really?
And I keep telling you, that feedback has already been given years ago and every damn year since. Nothing will change during A2. No new type of feedback will be given, because Intrepid have already heard it all, and they still want to make the game that Steven designed.
All those other players can play dozens of mmos that are designed exactly how they like. Ashes will be designed for the people that have similar tastes to mine.
Have you heard of PirateSoftware? He already has over 10k people interested in his plan for Ashes. That's already a full concurrent server just from him alone. And a ton of those people come from EVE, because EVE's devs have been making dumb decisions as well, just as NCsoft did which inevitably led to the decline of L2.
And I mentioned BDO (and other "dead" games) exactly because they had players with similar tastes to mine, but failed those players because the dev company kept making shitty decisions.
Steven's goal is to avoid those shitty decisions, while making a game that appeals to players that have been forgotten by their devs. Changing Ashes into a yet another WoW would simply betray all the promises Steven has made throughout the years and would also make it die within a few months, because a wow-like only appeals to wow-like players, who will inevitably leave to their owner, who'll keep beating them with a stick, as Blizz have been doing for a decade now.
Time will show. You don't like everything in Ashes, that's valid also for other players.
I've heared all the viral critism about it when it comes to mega guilds dominating everything which will disadvantage all others. And 10k is a forecast, will only be a fact and true if that's happening at release in 2-3 (?) years. Things change. Life and humans change. We will see
Yeah, that's sounds familiar if thinking about some design decisions in Ashes. Very true. Let's hope that they learn from that from games that didn fail.
Still room for improvement.
Not the ones who love Ashes as it is, not the ones who 'want to see where it goes.
If you're coming onto the forums concerned that Ashes is making mistakes and needs to change something, check if TL has already 'done it the way you want it'. In the end, even though these two MMOs are almost certainly going to converge over time, both games are better served by choosing a side, and so is the market for players.
If you hate TL, wait for Ashes, if you think Ashes is making mistakes, play TL. Encourage complainers in either game to go to the other. Only then would we have a chance of even getting to discuss actual issues in either game instead of 'stuff someone doesn't like'.
I've only been following for 4 years and I've already seen pretty much every possible complaint about pvp, big guilds, freeholds, open dungeons, leveling speeds, class design, skillsets, gear design, loot rules, monetization, etc etc etc.
And Intrepid have had all that feedback summarized by their mods and presented to the team. And yet even in these past 4 years Steven has went even deeper into those designs, with the open seas change, with making freeholds a lvl50 auction thing, node ruins being a pvp zone, glint and commodities that can multiply through caravans which are inherently party-based - all of which will be hated by the pver WoW crowd.
And it's exactly this doubling down that leads me to believe that none of the core pillars will change simply because people outside of AoC's target audience scream at Steven to change them.
Sure, and this will go on, but the major part always will be the pvp part and thus all the consequences in all surrounding contents and design. If that part disadvanteges and harasses players more than they benefit, then they will quit and the overall health of the game decreases due to a lack of players - players, that are needed, that those systems work. It's a vicious circle and intrepid must watch it with responsibilty - not ignore it in an artificial bubble.
Most of this stuff seems fine in general for me (WoW pvp and pve player
And there's been at least 100k people that have already liked the current design enough to monetrality support it.
And the only monetary impact that dislikers will have on the game will happen after release, at which point it's gonna be too late to change the game as drastically as they would want. And before release there's no way for those people to somehow influence Intrepid monetarily (well, other than buying the keys, which is a positive influence).
Oh, right, I completely forgot, like, the biggest oldschool design part of the game
And I'd be real interested in seeing how exactly you'll avoid interacting with anything that can kill you in the game, when pve will supposedly be hard enough to do that and pvp will inevitable do that
We will refine systems, we will iterate on systems, but we will never change the core identity of the intent and philosophical approach to what Ashes of Creation as an MMO brings to the MMO genre space... What we want to do is express that Ashes of Creation is endeavoring to build a risk-versus-reward centric PvX style game. And that intent and purpose will be delivered upon, and it will not change.[11] – Steven Sharif
Nice for singleplayer games, very bad for a MMO.
Money was not enough - see Alpha Keys ("game is already financed")
It's not survival game, correct. Wasting and stealing time of the player is by defalut bad design. If someone is masochistic that's understandable, but it will not transfer this to normal behaviour. The majority of players don't like regression and frustration, but progression and fun. Nothing special about it also here, but just normal.
Artisanry is great! Whats wrong with it?
Searching for a mass guild with 24/7 unemployed guys that will carry me with mass-scale zerg pvp trough all the content.
But, as this thread shows: There is enough pve, solo and whatsover content so I don't understand your concerns. This game is for everybody!
I jused again checked the slogan on the offical website: This sounds like the perfect hardcore elitis pvp game I'm searching for. Good thing there is something on the market like this, because that's what everybody is searchin for and thats why this slogan should attract them all! That's a good thing, phu.
It's 100k people that spend $250 at the least. Which is the same as having 1.6mil subs on release. And I do believe that 1.6mil people is more than good for an mmo.
That Steven is rich is something fully irrelevant for me, several game developers are rich (or meanwhile rich). You probably now Swen Vincke?
It's 100k people that spend $250 at the least. Which is the same as having 1.6mil subs on release. And I do believe that 1.6mil people is more than good for an mmo.[/quote]
Player amounts at release are fully irrelevant for any MMO out there. Fully. Proven every time. What is important is only how many players are playing the game still after 6 month. As you can see on the MMO market, the answer is simple.
And while they were lucky enough for those investors not to mess up their vision, for most games that is not the case. And Steven being a very rich person matters here, exactly because he can avoid that investor influence. And he can keep saying the stuff that Ayevee posted.
And the 25mil from those 100k people (and whoever knows how much more from other pricepoints) is simply player-based "investments" saying "make your game".
And as for player retention - that usually depends on the quality of the game rather than purely its designs. A good release would pull in a ton of people, which is a ton of money, which means that the studio can survive past the inevitable drop of players.
We've had a million concurrent in NW and LA in the recent years. Both of those games fumbled their release. One through numerous bugs, broken servers and broken client, and the other through countless bots that ruined any semblance of economy (also one of the biggest reasons why L2 died in the west). And there's been no other recent mmo of good quality to truly show what a "normal" playerbase decline looks like in this day and age.
Also, NW's downfall was at least partially due to its very late shift in design direction due to all the same feedback you're implying Ashes will have. That shift led to devs not having enough time to properly restructure the game, which resulted in the stuff I mentioned above and the absolute lack of good content. The game lost all its niche appeal by trying to attract all the modern gamers.
And implementing the kind of changes that the "majority" will ask for would lead to either the same fate as NW or to godknowshowmany additional years of development. We're already 7 years deep, with maybe 3-4 of those being proper good years. Making a huge shift would add another 3-4 at the very least, because any kind of balancing that Intrepid might've planned for the current design will have flown out the window and they'd need to start from scratch.
We all know it will not be a SOLO Player Game.
And we all also know that we will find out the true Extent of the Game Play only in Alpha Two at earliest.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Vaknar will funnel suggestions from the Forums to the dev team like he does every week.
Steven is not going to make changes to cater to "Soloers" until he gets feedback from A2.
From player perspective investors ensure that usually budget, high production quality and timeline hold. Those are good aspects in professional software development projects of that complexity.
Yes, this means that the full freedom of doing what you want by your own is gone, but that's the developer perspective. I prefer the player perspective and I really like plans about budget and timelines - that hold. This is crucial for me personally, I don't like promises and missing commitments. Iterations and delay just increases expecatations that perfection is reached then, which never will be the case. Waiting 10years long (so knowing it from the start) gets high expecations as results - so the quality must be perfect in the end, especially if that's the focus: Quality > Time. We will see, if that promise will hold in a IT project like this. Heard that hundred times before, seen it equally often not happening.
I'm sure thats (the next) point were we agree to disagree, as you (I assume) already paid money to intrepid and you dont care if the games releases in 2026 or 2028. You follow the promises and ideas.
For me that's not enough. I'm not paying a promise or an unfinished product with my money with that little to no influence. I'm doing investments (but for other business), but I can control and really decide then. As this part is missing for me I see no reason why I should pay something unfinished in advance which even has no fixed time scale or transparent financial situation (from company overall).
So, investors/publishers are nothing bad, really. It depends on the point of view and access to this topic.
Throwing in "Ubisoft" (or whatever) doestn't change anything, because you can at least - if you like their games - rely on high production quality and solid time plans and replenishment of game series that you like ("next album from the metal band you love").
So, that's why, again, for me it's neither impressive nor special or important, that it is Steven (or Kevin, or Donald, or...), but only that a huge next MMO is coming out attracting (with this current marketing on website and showcases) all types of players in a high-fantasy setting with 3rd person characters with different races and classes, solid gameplay/combat mechanics (action combat + targeting), pvp AND pve content and thus choices what to play depending on the particual situation with or without guildies/friends. That's why I'm watching, that's what I'm hopeing, but it's no personal cult for me following a person or whatever - it's just one promising MMO combining pvp and pve as I don't want to only have one content type of it.
I don't consider that strange at all.
Most games have good and bad aspects to their design. Picking good aspects of games that didn't do well is perfectly fine.
It's going to be relatively niche.
And... it will release when it's ready. Or become vaporware.
https://ashesofcreation.com/
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Playstyles
Longer, but not "not".
So Ahses by its own definition wants all player types, all of them.
I'm in for sure, because I'm a casual pvp player. Sounds strange? But that's realiy. I like pvp, I dont have a lot of time (1-3 hours a day at max in the evening, but not every evening). There will be countless players like me and the game needs them to work smoothly.
This is a Steven for you. He provides one good example. The wants those players, he NEEDs those players. The game will not work without. Your "not made for everyone" is marketing speech, just rhetorical stuff only naive humans are even listeing.
This is very very essential. It's crucial. If you think this game will only be done from 20-35aged guys growing up with L2 as teenager or whatever, you are absolutely wrong. By contrast, it will attract 40y+ until open end age to play this MMO as they want to play it. And nearly all of them just share one same opinion: Having a funny gameplay, without getting disturbed from others (like the young toxic player fulfilling his wet virtual dreams by compensating success in real life). That is the majority. That will be the core playerbase wide over 50%. The niche you are talking about are only the niche gamers (some percentage) playing this game like a hard competetive business job for 10h a day. All the other players are playing this game in their sparetime in the afternoon/eveneing and a bit at the weekend, because it attracts mature humans, family persons, guys that are in solid well-payed jobs. There is no "this game is not for you" - wrong. It's PER DEFINTION for those gamers. It's neither fortnite, nor LoL or a survival game - and also not L2 copy.
Its ONLY you (some in this forums) that only want a small and very very special playerbase.
I'm sorry, but you are not correct. If you think so, please be author in the wiki and correct all the articles there and the webpage information from official developers. You hold onto a dream which will not come true.
Makes no sense form an economical point of view. intrepid is a company, so profit counts. Thats the responsibliy (!) af the companys boss and taking care (by law, company contracts) of his employees not to push it against the wall for huge unemployment.
When it's done is unprofessional at this large scale. This is no garage programming from clowns. Take responsiblity and do commitments as this is done in professional mature business.
I mean, I'm the best example and countless are the same.
I'm an average guy loving playing MMOs since decades. Well-situated in real life with family, kids and few, but real friends (not the social media ones, I'm talking about the real ones) and quite everything already available what you can buy with money as good business man (but without fully being rich, I work hard for my money, but don't miss anything from a monetary perspective). What I lack is only one thing: Time.
But still this game, Ashes, attracts me. Why? Because of the same things it's attracting you: Promises.
I count of all the things Steven said and that is documented in the Wiki. But only from a completely different direction as a L2 pvp player. And I'm respecting this fully but I expect that this also is done the other way round. I dont want to hear exclusion allegations, I want to hear inclusion and cooperative gameplay mechanics to fullfill the promises for casuals and non-casual players. I'm (quite) ok in playing pvp, not the best, not the worst. I like it. But only to a certain degree and only if I want to do it and get reward out of it - somehow. This is not strange expectations, it's a normal one. And the game is promising, that I can play this game casual, with pve or pvp content and with or without groups. And this mix must work, if not, I'm gone. That's easy - I'm not engaged to it, I will not pay one Euro for it before my first sub-fee. I will watch and work together with other fans (like me) that this is no full L2 copy and no playing ground for toxic players that like the situation, that the virtual e-peen is bigger than the real one in real life.