Given that an MMO is based on interaction with other players, it's not surprising to leave it because you're a solo player. It's like buying a car and riding on two wheels. At some point you'll decide to buy a motorcycle.
I interact with other players all the time. You don't need to be in a group or guild to interact with players. I buy from people selling stuff. I chat in general chat. I help people if and when I can.
Agree. It’s what I was trying to explain in my message just before that one you quoted.
Given that an MMO is based on interaction with other players, it's not surprising to leave it because you're a solo player. It's like buying a car and riding on two wheels. At some point you'll decide to buy a motorcycle.
I interact with other players all the time. You don't need to be in a group or guild to interact with players. I buy from people selling stuff. I chat in general chat. I help people if and when I can.
Agree. It’s what I was trying to explain in my message just before that one you quoted.
Also, like I've mentioned previously, the game's focus is risk vs reward, yet solo/casual players are basically all risk and no reward. We should be able to choose how much risk we want to take, and then be rewarded accordingly.
Solos and casuals have the lowest risk.
They are defended by the corruption system.
They don't have as much invested in housing, so even if their node falls - they won't lose nearly as much as the hardcore sweats.
They're probably not as invested in node dealing, or even the node itself, as someone like me who's gonna be nolifing the game trying to become a mayor. Which means that they're free to move from node to node if they feel like it.
They have all the professions in the game to explore/try and they wouldn't care about the sweat lvls of top lvl processing requiring freeholds, cause it would take a casual player moooooonth to get even near to the top processing lvls.
Casuals have the free market, so they don't need to care about hardcore raids and their guild-related requirements, because the casual player can just chill, farm stuff at their own pace and gear up at the same pace as well. And the more market-savvy players can spend their time manipulating the markets and earn the money for better gear through that. I know several older dudes from L2 that barely even leveled their char, but were millionaires, just because they played the market well.
There's gonna be countless casual and solo friendly guilds out there that will not require anything from the player and will just be a social hub that make partying up easier (I will make one for my node and will be helping anyone who needs helping).
All of that will be in the game, all while sweaties are fighting each other for bosses and castles and are waking up in the middle of the night cause the raid's respawn timer randomed slightly later than it should've. So it all simply comes down to what those older players are looking for. If they're looking for the same experience as they had when they were a kid - that's just a fantasy that would never come true even if Intrepid presented them bosses on a silver platter (which, btw, story bosses will be; literally instanced for your pleasure).
But if your irl is good - you can just log in and chill in a game with other older dudes and enjoy the vibes. And yes, I know, you could pretty much do the same in any other mmo, but how many of those have the same kind of living and changing world that Ashes will supposedly have? What other game could change in one night, where you login the next evening and realize that an entire "kingdom" has fallen apart and there's utter panic going on.
They don't have the lowest risk though, or rather, they do have the lowest risk if they avoid most of the content in the open-world. And then I would ask, what's the point of even playing the game, if you are not going to engage in the content it offers?
They have the highest risk of getting 0 rewards.
They're missing out on caravans, housing/freeholds, sieges, ow dungeons, world bosses, sea content probably. If all they can do in game is just hang around, kills some mobs, etc. without doing anything even remotely challenging or meaningful, then I'd just say what's the point of playing (sure there absolutely are some players that will play like this, but I'd say most of the solo/casual crowd is looking for something more).
All of what you've mentioned is "side content" that is not enough on its own. It's maybe enough for players to try the game out, and play for a month or two, but then there's no point, as you are not doing the actual content which the game revolves around.
I think your point regarding IRL stuff is somewhat true, but not to a such large extent. Yes, if you are killing it IRL, you won't care about proving yourself to others in an MMO as much, but there still is that competitive element, and you want to engage with the content in order to have fun. Competition is also fun in its own way.
They're missing out on caravans, housing/freeholds, sieges, ow dungeons, world bosses, sea content probably. If all they can do in game is just hang around, kills some mobs, etc. without doing anything even remotely challenging or meaningful, then I'd just say what's the point of playing (sure there absolutely are some players that will play like this, but I'd say most of the solo/casual crowd is looking for something more).
Yes, all of those pieces of content are meant for groups, so if you're a solo player - you need to find a group to clear it. Just as is the case for any dungeon/boss content in other mmos.
Steven doesn't want to make a soloable mmo, but he IS making an mmo where you can be solo. You simply need to know what you're doing, as this comment pointed out
As a mostly solo player and an Old school gamer(I have been in guilds and ran them too) I'd like to point out a few things after reading all this.
People saying that this game is guild only is ridiculous and the argument that they are giving a bonus xp to grouping is the reason why is laughable because welcome to just about every MMO! Now is there content you will need a group for of course again welcome to every MMO but I highly doubt that everyone in ashes is going to wait in a safe area until they can put together an eight man to go adventure. Especially us old guys who only have a couple hours to play after work and don't want to spend 30 mins waiting to get one going.
I have mainly soloed every game I played that's not to say that i didn't find pick up grps or other soloers when needed. Ultima Online ,DAoC (the original 8man and zerg game) ,SWG ,WoW and New World. I had fun never had a problem.
Now I figure this game is actually more solo friendly than a lot of other games i have played for one reason, top gear made by players and world events are made so anyone can join! So all I have to do to be competitive is make gold. Remember this about end game and it doesn't matter solo or grp, casual or hard core everyone will have pretty much access to similiar gear potential. So it will just come down to who's killin who and who's taking who's stuff!
Will that change the fact that they will leave the game disgruntled probably leave a negative review?
Still not sure what your point is.
Yes, there are some people that will purchase a product without understanding what that product is, find that it didn't meet their uninformed pre-concieved notion of what it should have been, be upset by the fact, and then leave a bad review.
This happens in literally every field, with literally every product. Some people just will not inform themselves, and instead will make decisions based on assumptions.
Again, no idea what your point is. It isn't as if Intrepid - or any other product developer - can or should take these people in to account.
WoW (first 2 expansions), EQ2, SWtoR, WildStar, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO, The Secret World, Rift, Fallen Earth (not exactly lots of people playing this), Neverwinter, probably others that I can't remember.
With WoW, EQ2, FFXIV, GW2, LotRO and Rift, you are objectively wrong in your claim that 50%+ of the games players are unguilded. That is the list of those games that I have first hand experience in.
The rest I am going to assume you are wrong - simply because you are wrong with every game that I have experience in, I have to assume you are wrong with those I do not, as well.
I get that if you are not in a guild, you are probably doing content that is different to those that are in a guild. As such, it may well even be that you see a higher proportion of players that are not in a guild.
However, a number of the developers of the games you have listed have actually released various statistics on their games population, including how many accounts have characters in a guild.
Your claim of 50%+ in at least one of the games you have listed above is actually less than 1% of active accounts not having an active character in a guild, according to that games own developer.
I'll leave you to find that information, if you like.
They're missing out on caravans, housing/freeholds, sieges, ow dungeons, world bosses, sea content probably. If all they can do in game is just hang around, kills some mobs, etc. without doing anything even remotely challenging or meaningful, then I'd just say what's the point of playing (sure there absolutely are some players that will play like this, but I'd say most of the solo/casual crowd is looking for something more).
Yes, all of those pieces of content are meant for groups, so if you're a solo player - you need to find a group to clear it. Just as is the case for any dungeon/boss content in other mmos.
Steven doesn't want to make a soloable mmo, but he IS making an mmo where you can be solo. You simply need to know what you're doing, as this comment pointed out
As a mostly solo player and an Old school gamer(I have been in guilds and ran them too) I'd like to point out a few things after reading all this.
People saying that this game is guild only is ridiculous and the argument that they are giving a bonus xp to grouping is the reason why is laughable because welcome to just about every MMO! Now is there content you will need a group for of course again welcome to every MMO but I highly doubt that everyone in ashes is going to wait in a safe area until they can put together an eight man to go adventure. Especially us old guys who only have a couple hours to play after work and don't want to spend 30 mins waiting to get one going.
I have mainly soloed every game I played that's not to say that i didn't find pick up grps or other soloers when needed. Ultima Online ,DAoC (the original 8man and zerg game) ,SWG ,WoW and New World. I had fun never had a problem.
Now I figure this game is actually more solo friendly than a lot of other games i have played for one reason, top gear made by players and world events are made so anyone can join! So all I have to do to be competitive is make gold. Remember this about end game and it doesn't matter solo or grp, casual or hard core everyone will have pretty much access to similiar gear potential. So it will just come down to who's killin who and who's taking who's stuff!
And I guess my issue with that is, stuff like housing/freeholds shouldn't be only for groups. Caravans also shouldn't be only for groups.
The game doesn't need to be soloable, it just needs meaningful content for solo players.
Also I just do not agree with that quoted part.
"All I have to do to be competitive is make gold" - in a game where in order to do so, you will need a group, and you will need to spend a lot of time to even think about affording top tier gear. I'd imagine the real gold making methods will be locked behind caravans, and top tier crafting, probably also selling rare drops from dungeons/world bosses. If you want to be solo or casual, you can maybe do gathering, low level crafting, etc. - but you will simply need to work 5x as hard, and spend 5x longer to get gold, because it's not going to be as profitable as stuff I mentioned above. And you cannot afford to work 5x as hard if you are a casual player, remember, you don't have the time.
"Remember this about end game and it doesn't matter solo or grp, casual or hard core everyone will have pretty much access to similiar gear potential. So it will just come down to who's killin who and who's taking who's stuff! "
Gear potential between such players is not similar at all in practice. Top level gear will be only shared between top level players.
I'm not even arguing that this is a bad thing, but I just wanted to point out that the argument made no sense.
Who's killing who is going to really be hardcore players killing other hardcore players as well as regular players, while regular players will not be able to kill hardcore players. So it's only going to be hardcore players taking other people's stuff.
And you cannot afford to work 5x as hard if you are a casual player, remember, you don't have the time.
Don't have the time in what way? Where are you running that you're out of time?
I think this is the issue with casual players. They think that they should still be competitive even though they do not invest competitive time into the activity.
Should a random dude who knows how to swim be able to compete in the olympics, just cause he KNOWS how to swim?
I know this sounds elitist as fuck and all that, but I do not understand this entitlement of "well, I can only spend 1h a day on the game but I should be able to do all the things as well as someone who can spend 10h on the game daily". No. No you should not, because that would be an absolutely unreasonable thing to ask for irl either.
Casual players that will just be minding their own business will rarely get attacked, because their small guilds (if they even have one) won't be wardecced (as long as wardec balancing is good, and I'm 100% giving feedback towards that goal), and corruption will dissuade any dudes from just PKing people left and right.
Intrepid simply need to distribute their mobs in a well-thoughtout way, and I believe that they're already on the right track with the star system. Even that farm we saw in the bard showcase would work well for this. Casuals and solos would be the people on the outskirts of the farm, killing 0* mobs at their own pace, while partied or hardcore solos will be closer to the center farming 2-3* mobs and fighting over them.
There's no benefit for a group to go and mow down 0* mobs, because they have an entire group to feed and 0* will never be enough. Then you add any potential wars and stuff and those parties will be so preoccupied with other enemies that they HAVE to kill, that random casual/solo in the vicinty will not matter, and instead would be a waste of time and resources to even attempt to kill.
As for caravans and housing - you can do both as a solo player. You can join any caravan on any side and see how it goes. You may definitely fail, but that's no different from a group of players failing cause there was another group of players on the other side. We will also supposedly have solo caravans, but I dunno about that entire part of the system and whether it'll even remain in the game, so it's hard to discuss it either way.
And freeholds are meant to be the peak form of housing, just as instanced pve is considered peak pve. And neither are meant to be done alone. Build social connections, find friends that have FHs and they'll give you family access to them. I'm 100% sure there'll even be sellable FH access, so if you're super determined to level up your processing and do big boi stuff - you can work towards that, but obviously at a slower pace.
In other words, casuals should not have the same progress pace as hardcore players. And solos cannot have the same pace as partied up people. And unguilded parties cannot have the same pace as guilded ones. There's gotta be a hierarchy to these things because Steven wants to push people to socialize in a more meaningful way than just "I'm a solo, but I find a completely random pug every day to do content", because that is not socializing - that's single playing with other single players, and that kind of design has already led some games to the point of completely replacing other players in the party with bots.
If casuals and solos could easily keep up the pace with partied people (let alone gain same kinds of rewards) - why in the everflyingfuck would anyone party up? Why be social when you can clear the game w/o being social? Sure some default social butterflies will always find others to hang out with, but it won't be because the game told them to do it.
I personally want a social mmo where people are made to group up, because I know from my own experience (and that of my friends and guildmates throughout the years) that this kind of design leads to a much better social structure in the game. Steven seems to think along those lines as well.
What's "elitist" about having a coherent line of thinking? If people want bigger rewards and challenges, then handing out equal rewards to those who do less is not the way to go. Yes, casuals and solos are going to miss out on parts of the content.
But so will those who prefer PvP or PvE over the other.
Just like those who focus on artisan or caravan game play.
Just like those who focus on Naval/pirate game play.
Just like those who focus on node occupation in specific region/biome.
Just like those who run around with their small guild as a mercenary force helping out bigger guilds in their objectives.
Any big MMO will have tons of content (and the associated rewards) you will miss out on when you decide to play the game a certain way. And its meant to be that way because not every player is interested in all aspects of the game.
The notable detail IMO is that Ashes' content will be even more restricted by being temporarily and conditionally available as well as far apart (no fast travel etc), making the total sum of rewards also more or less restricted.
One can call that unfair or elistist but these are necessary conditions to create a ladder of challenges. If time, gear or skill requirements are deemed "not fun"/"bad" for tiers of rewards to chase after, then I honestly wonder in what way one would want to reward a player for putting in more effort than another - and this effort includes organising with other players.
And you cannot afford to work 5x as hard if you are a casual player, remember, you don't have the time.
Don't have the time in what way? Where are you running that you're out of time?
I think this is the issue with casual players. They think that they should still be competitive even though they do not invest competitive time into the activity.
Should a random dude who knows how to swim be able to compete in the olympics, just cause he KNOWS how to swim?
I know this sounds elitist as fuck and all that, but I do not understand this entitlement of "well, I can only spend 1h a day on the game but I shold be able to do all the things as well as someone who can spend 10h on the game daily". No. No you should not, because that would be an absolutely unreasonable thing to ask for irl either.
Casual players that will just be minding their own business will rarely get attacked, because their small guilds (if they even have one) won't be wardecced (as long as wardec balancing is good, and I'm 100% giving feedback towards that goal), and corruption will dissuade any dudes from just PKing people left and right.
If all they're going to do is grind gold, then they won't have time for anything else. Besides, my point was that such a player would need to put in way more time and effort to get the same results, than someone who's more hardcore, in a groups that clear content, groups that do caravans, etc.
But that's not my argument. I agree with you on this totally. You shouldn't expect to be at the same level if you don't put in the effort.
I'm just arguing the quote you posted, because it didn't make sense to me. It makes the game out to be solo friendly, and how everyone is at the same playing field, how everyone will be able to get gold to buy top gear, etc. when that's just not the case at all.
And you cannot afford to work 5x as hard if you are a casual player, remember, you don't have the time.
Casual players that will just be minding their own business will rarely get attacked, because their small guilds (if they even have one) won't be wardecced (as long as wardec balancing is good, and I'm 100% giving feedback towards that goal), and corruption will dissuade any dudes from just PKing people left and right.
Intrepid simply need to distribute their mobs in a well-thoughtout way, and I believe that they're already on the right track with the star system. Even that farm we saw in the bard showcase would work well for this. Casuals and solos would be the people on the outskirts of the farm, killing 0* mobs at their own pace, while partied or hardcore solos will be closer to the center farming 2-3* mobs and fighting over them.
There's no benefit for a group to go and mow down 0* mobs, because they have an entire group to feed and 0* will never be enough. Then you add any potential wars and stuff and those parties will be so preoccupied with other enemies that they HAVE to kill, that random casual/solo in the vicinty will not matter, and instead would be a waste of time and resources to even attempt to kill.
And you cannot afford to work 5x as hard if you are a casual player, remember, you don't have the time.
As for caravans and housing - you can do both as a solo player. You can join any caravan on any side and see how it goes. You may definitely fail, but that's no different from a group of players failing cause there was another group of players on the other side. We will also supposedly have solo caravans, but I dunno about that entire part of the system and whether it'll even remain in the game, so it's hard to discuss it either way.
And freeholds are meant to be the peak form of housing, just as instanced pve is considered peak pve. And neither are meant to be done alone. Build social connections, find friends that have FHs and they'll give you family access to them. I'm 100% sure there'll even be sellable FH access, so if you're super determined to level up your processing and do big boi stuff - you can work towards that, but obviously at a slower pace.
In other words, casuals should not have the same progress pace as hardcore players. And solos cannot have the same pace as partied up people. And unguilded parties cannot have the same pace as guilded ones. There's gotta be a hierarchy to these things because Steven wants to push people to socialize in a more meaningful way than just "I'm a solo, but I find a completely random pug every day to do content", because that is not socializing - that's single playing with other single players, and that kind of design has already led some games to the point of completely replacing other players in the party with bots.
If casuals and solos could easily keep up the pace with partied people (let alone gain same kinds of rewards) - why in the everflyingfuck would anyone party up? Why be social when you can clear the game w/o being social? Sure some default social butterflies will always find others to hang out with, but it won't be because the game told them to do it.
I personally want a social mmo where people are made to group up, because I know from my own experience (and that of my friends and guildmates throughout the years) that this kind of design leads to a much better social structure in the game. Steven seems to think along those lines as well.
- What do you get from caravans, other than potential PvP, as a solo player who just happens to join it? Rewards have to be there, if they manage to defend it, and it shouldn't be up to players to give out the rewards to those who came to help. I think we will have something like that in Highwayman system - that we haven't seen yet.
But I'm just not sure about the whole caravan system in this game.
In Archeage it had a good balance of risk/reward, where you can choose to do safe zone trade runs, more risky runs within conflict zones, and also risky runs across the sea, the riskiest of them all to Freedich island which is in the middle of the sea, and is regularly camped by PvP players looking to gank and steal those trade packs. You could do them both in groups or solo.
In Ashes, it just seems like the baseline risk level is always high, because it creates a PvP zone around a carvan, it requires you to build it up, it takes time for it to come to your location, etc. etc.
Maybe a solo caravan could simply be limited in amount of goods even further, but it also doesn't spawn a PvP zone around it. So if you want to gank it, you risk corruption - just an idea.
But again, it needs to be tested first, we need to see it in action.
- I'm comparing Freeholds to Archeage's housing system, in terms of what you can do on it.
I could easily manage to get a plot (not being handed out, not free), then grind some gold and buy out the neighbors next to me, so I have a bigger plot. Being in a family just meant you were more efficient, you pooled resources together, and overall you made way more profit off your land, than if you were solo. Besides, I could just join a family with several plots of land, and that same family could also have more plots around the map.
In Ashes however they will be very limited, and only the most powerful people will be able to get one (or rather families/guilds). Only 1 person will actually own just 1 piece of land. You cannot get to do whatever you want on it, if you have other family members who are also wanting to use it.
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I don't even know what we are even arguing about here at this point lol
I feel like I'm just providing counterarguments to your counterarguments, but we are getting further away from my actual point by doing so, because I have to provide counterarguments against things I don't believe in necessarily.
Obviously you shouldn't expect hardcore players and casuals to be on the same level, just how solo players will not match up to groups. I never argued otherwise.
That is just a natural state of things, except in Ashes it seems heavily forced to favor certain group of players.
Every system, or rather every piece of content in the game favors hardcore players or groups to some extent or is specifically designed for only those kinds of players in mind. - In general I do not have a problem with group content, and it's only natural to expect someone who puts in more time and effort to be ahead.
I don't even disagree with most of the stuff you said about the game, how it should push players to group up, etc.
I'm not asking for same kind of rewards, I'm just asking for some content that you can do as a solo player, it doesn't have to have the same level of rewards as group content, it just needs to exist and give you something.
Having that will in no way impact the key principles or pillars of this game, because you will still have so much group content that matters, that gives out gear, that rewards you, that is basically the key part of the game. It's something that you will do in this game on a regular basis, just like how you do dungeons/raids in WoW, or how you do farming/gathering, trade runs, and PvP in Archage.
I'm simply asking for something else to be there for solo or more casual players. Whether that's horizontal progression content, whether it's battlegrounds, aka instanced PVP, or instanced PvE, housing system that's accessible to most who put in a bit of effort, where you can actually farm/produce stuff, whether it's just something in the open-world (like caravans or even events in general).
We just haven't seen enough of that, they keep repeating solo players will have a place, the will have stuff to do, but we only hear about group content/systems, hardcore content/systems, or content/systems that are going to be limited to select few people (Node mayors).
What's "elitist" about having a coherent line of thinking? If people want bigger rewards and challenges, then handing out equal rewards to those who do less is not the way to go.
But who argued for this? I certainly haven't, so all I'm seeing is people wrongly assuming what my position on this is. Nobody argued for EQUAL rewards.
I'm simply asking for something else to be there for solo or more casual players. Whether that's horizontal progression content, whether it's battlegrounds, aka instanced PVP, or instanced PvE, housing system that's accessible to most who put in a bit of effort, where you can actually farm/produce stuff, whether it's just something in the open-world (like caravans or even events in general).
And my main argument has been that such content is already planned.
Apartments will have rudimentary farming. Mules will be solo caravans, while the highwaymen system that you mentioned will provide some game-based rewards to those who're willing to join full caravans. There'll definitely be soloable pve. Maaaaybe hardcore soloable pve, but that is definitely an arguable statement at this point. We will have arenas, which will have 1v1s. And majority of events that's been shown so far have obviously been designed with solo players in mind (quick pugs during the event showcase, Steven soloing mobs into a quest-based event during that commission showcase, soloable mobs outside of the farm during the bard showcase, etc).
All of that stuff is something that solo players can do to a varrying extent of success. And I wasn't necessarily responding just to your comment when talking about people wanting equal rewards for solo performance and stuff, cause just yesterday I've discussed this in a different thread where those rewards were talked about, so I simply generalized my address here as well, while using your comment as some base context.
As for the speed of solo progress - yes, it's gonna take longer, because we're comparing collective human-hours of a party doing an activity vs the hours of a singular human doing the same activity. 1h of gameplay by a full party represents 8h of invested time, while a solo player only invests 1. So of course it'll take longer for the solo player to achieve something, but it's still achievable.
And think of it this way. A hardcore party on release would have to pioneer a shitton of content and gearing progress. They'll have to gather their own resources, process it with their own hands and craft it themselves as well, because they'd be on the forefront of overall server progress. They'll spend a tooooon of 8-person time investment on this. Literal hundreds of hours.
Then, a solo player, who's been just leveling up big by bit at their own pace, comes to the same lvl of progress months later (weeks if they're hardcore). By that point all the hardcore party/guild players have scaled up their productions, set up player shops and stalls that not only provide services related to gear progress, but also come at a way cheaper price than what they were at release. All resource are also way cheaper because thousands of players (of ranging casuality) have been playing the game, farming stuff and selling it on the market.
So now, this solo player has come into a saturated market with set up infrastructure and services. It'll take this player quite a bit less time to get the same gear that the release party spent on gearing their members with the same stuff.
I've seen this exact situation take place on numerous L2 servers with any person who'd start playing on the server several weeks after release (let alone several months or years on official servers or long-running private ones).
And at that point the difference between hardcore players and casual/solos will come down to the power scaling of gear in the game. If Intrepid somehow manage to balance player power in the way they promised, that would mean that by the time a solo player gets to lvl50 - they're only a few dozen % weaker than top progress hardcore dudes (if even that). And while, yes, a few dozen % is still a pretty big gap - all those hardcore players would be constantly fighting each other for better cutting edge loot and their gear decay would also keep them from flying into the power stratosphere. This means that solos would be coming up on the hardcores' diminishing returns bit by bit, which would then roughly equalize them, or at least make it easier to bridge the gap through skill (if the solo player has enough of it to make that bridge).
We could discuss if that kind of gear progress pace is good or not (Noaani believes it's utter shite, for example ), but that's a discussion for a whole different day somewhere deep in A2 when we get full crafting gameplay cycles and get proper loot tables into mobs and bosses.
But my main point here is simple. Solo and casual players can 100% enjoy the game if they do not expect to magically be at the same power lvl and pace of progress as hardcore/party people are at all times. I know this because I saw solo players enjoy L2, even with that game's much poorer content variety and much more hardcore design of "you either party up or you don't do shit".
And all of that is even before any potential changes in AoC's design that might stem from all the inevitable whining and complaining that casuals and single mmo players will do throughout A2.
p.s. I guess Steven disliked AA's housing design, which is why he went for a way more exclusive and luxurious overworld housing. It's definitely a choice
I'm simply asking for something else to be there for solo or more casual players. Whether that's horizontal progression content, whether it's battlegrounds, aka instanced PVP, or instanced PvE, housing system that's accessible to most who put in a bit of effort, where you can actually farm/produce stuff, whether it's just something in the open-world (like caravans or even events in general).
And think of it this way. A hardcore party on release would have to pioneer a shitton of content and gearing progress. They'll have to gather their own resources, process it with their own hands and craft it themselves as well, because they'd be on the forefront of overall server progress. They'll spend a tooooon of 8-person time investment on this. Literal hundreds of hours.
Then, a solo player, who's been just leveling up big by bit at their own pace, comes to the same lvl of progress months later (weeks if they're hardcore). By that point all the hardcore party/guild players have scaled up their productions, set up player shops and stalls that not only provide services related to gear progress, but also come at a way cheaper price than what they were at release. All resource are also way cheaper because thousands of players (of ranging casuality) have been playing the game, farming stuff and selling it on the market.
And that same party will get rewarded for it immensely. Whether it's in terms of power, or in terms of gold if they decide to sell what they craft.
By the time solo player catches up, that group will have already moved on from that level, and will be way ahead in terms of power, gold, etc.
It's always better to play from day 1 to capitalize on the early market situation, rather than come in weeks or months later, when the same stuff is not profitable, and when to make the same amount of gold, the difficulty and effort required goes up drastically.
As a gatherer you'd make way more money in the first few weeks, rather than 2 months later - for example.
So yeah, it's easier to get into months later, but also harder at the same time.
Anyways, I do agree with your post, didn't feel like I had to reply to anything else really.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
With how the world is laid out and the servers each server will be different. Some maybe more to your liking then you and Dygz can hang out pick flowers and do Shakespeare in the park.
I can ignore progression and PvP and Risk v Reward equally well on any server/Realm.
But, I'm only hanging out because friends I've made on the Forums want me to hang out in game with them.
Carebears won't truly be playing Ashes. There are plenty of other games to play for those who are not in Steven's target audience: Gamers who enjoy EvE, ArcheAge, Lineage 2, Albion.
They're missing out on caravans, housing/freeholds, sieges, ow dungeons, world bosses, sea content probably. If all they can do in game is just hang around, kills some mobs, etc. without doing anything even remotely challenging or meaningful, then I'd just say what's the point of playing (sure there absolutely are some players that will play like this, but I'd say most of the solo/casual crowd is looking for something more).
Yes, all of those pieces of content are meant for groups, so if you're a solo player - you need to find a group to clear it. Just as is the case for any dungeon/boss content in other mmos.
Steven doesn't want to make a soloable mmo, but he IS making an mmo where you can be solo. You simply need to know what you're doing, as this comment pointed out
As a mostly solo player and an Old school gamer(I have been in guilds and ran them too) I'd like to point out a few things after reading all this.
People saying that this game is guild only is ridiculous and the argument that they are giving a bonus xp to grouping is the reason why is laughable because welcome to just about every MMO! Now is there content you will need a group for of course again welcome to every MMO but I highly doubt that everyone in ashes is going to wait in a safe area until they can put together an eight man to go adventure. Especially us old guys who only have a couple hours to play after work and don't want to spend 30 mins waiting to get one going.
I have mainly soloed every game I played that's not to say that i didn't find pick up grps or other soloers when needed. Ultima Online ,DAoC (the original 8man and zerg game) ,SWG ,WoW and New World. I had fun never had a problem.
Now I figure this game is actually more solo friendly than a lot of other games i have played for one reason, top gear made by players and world events are made so anyone can join! So all I have to do to be competitive is make gold. Remember this about end game and it doesn't matter solo or grp, casual or hard core everyone will have pretty much access to similiar gear potential. So it will just come down to who's killin who and who's taking who's stuff!
And I guess my issue with that is, stuff like housing/freeholds shouldn't be only for groups. Caravans also shouldn't be only for groups.
The game doesn't need to be soloable, it just needs meaningful content for solo players.
Also I just do not agree with that quoted part.
"All I have to do to be competitive is make gold" - in a game where in order to do so, you will need a group, and you will need to spend a lot of time to even think about affording top tier gear. I'd imagine the real gold making methods will be locked behind caravans, and top tier crafting, probably also selling rare drops from dungeons/world bosses. If you want to be solo or casual, you can maybe do gathering, low level crafting, etc. - but you will simply need to work 5x as hard, and spend 5x longer to get gold, because it's not going to be as profitable as stuff I mentioned above. And you cannot afford to work 5x as hard if you are a casual player, remember, you don't have the time.
"Remember this about end game and it doesn't matter solo or grp, casual or hard core everyone will have pretty much access to similiar gear potential. So it will just come down to who's killin who and who's taking who's stuff! "
Gear potential between such players is not similar at all in practice. Top level gear will be only shared between top level players.
I'm not even arguing that this is a bad thing, but I just wanted to point out that the argument made no sense.
Who's killing who is going to really be hardcore players killing other hardcore players as well as regular players, while regular players will not be able to kill hardcore players. So it's only going to be hardcore players taking other people's stuff.
You are right on a couple things here and that is soloing will be harder is some cases and you will be shut out of certain things if u don't want to group.No MMO is made for solo play it is made for groups that is obvious.
Things you are wrong about!
"Only top players will have top gear" sounds like you grew up playing WoW but this isn't! As long as there is gold to be made top components will make there way to the auction house.
Gold! The two biggest gold makers I see are going to be starting in second place Harvesting/Gathering and this is definitely solo game and a major reason why I solo because I really hate people touching my resources. Fishing will be up there too.
The first and king of gold making will be Animal Husbandry another completely soloable game play. Ranger/Rogue with hunting and animal husbandry out in the wilderness not a need or a care for anyone else if you want it that way. This is the same concept as the Bio engineer in SWG the ones who knew what they were doing were filthy rich. You can have a a gigantic ravenous river otter as a mount! Pure bank!
Housing. everyone can buy a house or apartment in a node you don't need a guild or group for that so worries there. As for freeholds well even guilds will have to get inventive there are only so many to go around.
I never said "don't have the time" I implied that it was wasting time. I also don't get the 5x as hard to level the xp required is the same for everyone yes in a group you get a modifier so find other people running solo and group up with them for the xp bonus and go your separate ways.
How much can they change when every other showcase it's being repeated over and over "this game is not for everyone", "not everyone is a winner in Ashes", "this is an open world pvp game", "only 20% of content is instanced, and majority of that is story-based stuff".
You can talk a lot the entire day, but you have to define it and write it down.
Not every player out there is hyped from AoC, not fully engaged, not fully informed.
If you land on the website, the first slogan is:
"Experience an MMORPG where everything is permanently impacted by your actions – explore, trade, build, and let the world take form."
Or like this?
"Our world structure is dynamic, and built to react to your actions. Cities will rise and fall as you shape the world of Verra. Quests and secrets will unlock as populations gather and their needs grow."
So, so dynamic world (like in 10 other MMOs, cool!) and cool pve questing and secrets (right, exploring! So I wil find treasure chests like in The Witcher Fantasy RPGs, cool!).
The current showcase leads to - correct, PvE content.
All of these points WILL appeal to the (modern) mmo players, independent if the are old-fashioned or modern.
That's what is written and seen on the official webpage.
Perhaps communication, marketing and written statements and slogans should be more precise, more honest and more transparent.
What about...
"Experience an elitist MMORPG where everything is permanently competitive by your actions – invest your time, get stronger, defeat other players and let the world burn in hardcore pvp battles."
Wouldn't this slogan adressing something completely different than exploring, trading and building?
Wouldn't this attract the real target audience to the game and leave out all the others, immediately?
Is this game for casual players, so players that cannot invest 10h per day?
Answer that question within Q&A on the webpage. That's what potential players want to know. It's the core for the attracted veterans, because a veteran means it's no child or teenager, right? Time quota is different for them, but they are NOT the target group at all.
Make clear, as a company and developer, to put your messages right: It's challenging content, but also time consuming one (or not - whatever fits). Can you play 1h in the evening a challenging conent? Of course you can - I did that in WoW over years. It's called arena or mythic dungeons. Time and skill are not absolutely the same aspects, you can be a casual (in time) but veteran (in skill). It also can be de other way: Lot of time but no skill. That's also ok, no offense meant. In large scale pvp games this is more important then skill, because your individual skill is not weightend that much in a 200 vs 200 fight, but it is in a 3v3 fight (which can be done in 5 to 10 minutes).
Are caravans running around for 1h, 2h, 8 hours? How long will a siege take - provide a forecast, Steven for sure has an idea on that (talking "prime time"). And that's one of the main questions for million players out there. Can I play this game in a meaningful way without decreasing my real life because I'm called from a developer that wants to design a game for MMO guys that play these games since decades - so guys that are, alrgiht, decades older nowadays. How can an avarage player, which is listening to that vision and call, play 5h (?) caravan gameplay? 8h sieges?
Of course Stevan and the rest doesn't want to state this truth, because he needs to attract players. He says "it's not for everybody", but he talks to everybody and want to attract everybody - otherwise the statements must be completely different.
If Ashes is a hardcore pvp elitist game surrounding about the wet dream of only having group and raid fights all over the day, then write it down, be transparent, define the target group.
Communicate it that way. Don't talk about "we have maces in our game" for 25min during an August developer stream, but provide statements, in written form, officially on the website, that say something like:
- This is a hardcore group-based pvp game
- This is no MMO for players that prefer and like solo content or rewarding and meaningful content to be done without groups or guilds
- This is a game which needs your highest time investment to get rewards, otherwise you will fall back and thats intented design, because we don't want you to get everything if you are not fully engaged in the game
- This game will not focus on social playing together but fully on fighting against each other and get your fun out of this - the regression of your enemy player is your progression!
- In this game other players will be able to loot certain parts of your loot after killing you so your character will have regression and thats intended design
- In this game you can attack every player at nearly every time, no player can disable this to secure his gameplay
Just examples, it's not my point that all those message are precise, but I'm convinced you got the message.
Then it will NOT appeal to (modern) MMO players. Then it will ONLY appeal to a very, very, very minor playerbase that like this "design".
Write it down. Put it on the website. On the landing page. Get 5 bullet points over there that adress precicsly what game it wants to be and which target group should play it.
No? That's too transparent? Too honest? Too risky? Well, more risk, more reward - right? It would make sure, within a very short time, that only the same players within the same bubble will talk about their MMO without having to discuss other, differentiated feedback with other, more experienced MMO players. Would save some nerves I guess.
Clear statements, transparent communication, clear target audience and thus all those players can, within their bubble and experience out of 2-3 MMOs, talk about design patterns and pillars of a game that advantage elistist players, frequent players and hardcore players, investing 10 hours every day, terminating every other player as identified as bad randoms and enemies, increasing toxic behaviour, envy and resentment because every design, in the end, leads to the situation, that once player or group is getting rewarded due to the loss and defeat of another. Progress for one player means regression for another. And this will only work and will only be accepted by a very, very special target group with very very special mindset and behaviour when it comes to computer games and having fun by playing them by harming other players for the own entertainment.
$100 for me is a full month of living.
Ok, this has nothing to do with the topic at all but I'm shocked and that's a pity.
100 Dollar are ~90 Euros. With 90 Euros I'm not surving one day with my family (middle europe). That's a small shopping for general food and some drinks/water.
So, 90 Euros for such a key is like a tiny tiny percentage of ... well, let's stop here, that's not the topic, but if talking about "MMO veterans" I'm convinced that 90 Euros / 100 Dollars are just meaning nothing, this target group (although meanwhile we know: The target group seems to be somewhere else, right?) doestn't care about this peanuts.
To be sure: That's not important or valid for me, I've played on pvp servers (in WoW) so I've got all the big punches there and I'm not afraid of pk-ing and pvp-ing in small and big scale. Additionally I'm a bit pre-informed about AoC (but not satisfied with some aspects, like too time consuming content, like no meaningful possibility to get some stuff done alone/solo if just no group is desired for a 1-2h gameplay on some Sunday evening - but still I'm patient and wait what testing, feedback and future changes/solutions will show so still give it a try), but it's about the general communication and general design of different content areas that firstly seems to attract MMO veterans but after an in depth look you get the truth out of all these social hostile mechanics and way to time-consuming mechanics (which doesn't suit to aged MMO veterans but teenagers, students and, yes, let's talk about it, unemployed players) and that will be misleading for a lot of players also in the future. So: State it right and honest, otherwise - as you've already said - this threads will be there for the next 10 years, because that's what players expect - variety, choice, diversity and of course they will compare with other MMOs out there but inevitably not with only 1 or 2 of them.
4
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This thread is about how little Solo players have at end game and how the various systems work against solo players, and if it was one or the other it wouldn't be an issue, but both mean solo players will end up leaving the game in droves due to all the drawbacks and none of the benefits.
Ashes does not have an Endgame.
Solo players have plenty to do at max Level Adventurer.
You make a lot of claims about how the various systems supposedly work against solo players, but that is just your own pessimistic paranoia.
Ashes is not designed to cater to Solo players.
If that means most Solo players will play some other game better suited to Solo players, that's OK.
Ashes is not made for everyone.
But, people can Solo in Ashes if they really want to - plenty of stuff players can do Solo - even at max Adventurer Level.
Solo players have plenty to do at max Level Adventurer.
Cool thing. Would you please provide 15 examples (plenty to do)?
But, people can Solo in Ashes if they really want to - plenty of stuff players can do Solo - even at max Adventurer Level.
The word "want" implies, that it's always a free choice. Sometimes it is - but there's nothing bad with that decision.
Is it that difficult to consider situations, where a player (although he is in a guild) has no desire to group with others or due to his onlie activity there is just right at this moment no group available which he can join?
Let's imagine Thursday morning. The player is logs into the game, checks the guild UI and recognizes, out of 80 guild members 3 are online. For whatever reason. Both are afk.
If AoC has no choices and no meaningful (= getting rewards, progress) content for that player just loggin into the game for 1-2h of playing his favorite MMO then, seriously, I'm convinced about DOA, yes, I'm, because I've experienced this since 20y+ playing of MMOs.
There must be content that can be done alone. "Solo" is nothing negative. It's nothing "bad", it's nothing antisocial. It only happens from time to time. What will be the answer of AoC for this situations and players?
Sunday evening. A player logs in at 21:40, because friend visit is gone and the player decides to put 1-2 hours into his favorite MMO. His guild members are online and already setup a group of 40 players for an event going on. 1 other player is online but idling in the city of a node.
There is no content for the the player that just logged in and wants to play meaningful, rewarding content? The answer is: Log out, because it's group based and you don't "want" to play in a group so there is nothing for you, we don't care about you, it's not "designed" to cater you. Seriously? You want to tell me or us that "everything" is about grouping together and play and act in groups, 100% uptime the next 10 years? Did you really play MMOs before with an avarage (normal) real life and different availabilities, different emotional states (hard workiing day, don't want to talk and group up, only want to play silently some stuff for myself) and different situation happening when it comes to group or guild members being online at same (or different) times so you are just too early or too late to join an event? I cannot imagine this, I just can't imagine that there is 100% uptime, 100% group-based focues and 100% focusing only this type of gameplay, mechanics, design and content. For me it's a lie, a dream, something which will just not happen, as long as we are not talking about guild with members that are 15h online every day and doing nothing more then playing this MMO the entire day.
So, there is solo-content, plenty of it. What will this guild member guy do 1-2 hours at Sunday evening, without his guild and group? 15 examples are enough to get a picture.
I like to have the choice, a meaningful way to play both in groups and solo, depending on the particular situation, day, availability, possibility. And good design considers this and takes care. You cant just ignore the market saying „we dont care“, you have to. I‘m convinced you must offer content that considers both situations and playing sytles and reward you - in both.
By playing solo content? Sounds like a plan.
The other 14 topics (out of "plenty to be done")?
But only AirborneBerserker can do that, by writing a very very long speech which nobody will read.
I read everything he posted.
It's weird because I agree with both Nik and you here.
I agree with your post about communication. They should definitely tell it how it is, it would at least clear so much stuff up, and we would probably avoid most of the conversations from this thread.
Here's the rest of that list:
- gathering
- caravans and highwayman system
- battlegrounds/arenas
- mob farming in general
- instanced housing
- some level of crafting and processing
- open world events
- questing
- participating in the economy, selling stuff on the AH, making money
Probably something else that I've forgot.
Is it enough? Well it's kind of enough if you think about these as activities you'll be doing in the downtime, between group stuff.
Is it that difficult to consider situations, where a player (although he is in a guild) has no desire to group with others or due to his onlie activity there is just right at this moment no group available which he can join?
Let's imagine Thursday morning. The player is logs into the game, checks the guild UI and recognizes, out of 80 guild members 3 are online. For whatever reason. Both are afk.
Did you really play MMOs before with an avarage (normal) real life and different availabilities, different emotional states (hard workiing day, don't want to talk and group up, only want to play silently some stuff for myself) and different situation happening when it comes to group or guild members being online at same (or different) times so you are just too early or too late to join an event? I cannot imagine this, I just can't imagine that there is 100% uptime, 100% group-based focues and 100% focusing only this type of gameplay, mechanics, design and content.
I absolutely agree with this, because there are many situations where you are kind of forced to play solo. As I keep repeating, you cannot expect players to be grouped up 24/7 whenever they're logged in. They need stuff to do outside of groups.
It's only up to you whether you think the things I've listed are enough, or if you want some more content for solo players.
When I look at it now, I might do gathering, some mob farming, events, maybe join some caravan stuff if I run into that, arena PvP, selling stuff on the AH, looking for ways to make money, etc. - That's probably good enough for some time, but the question is for how long.
Questing, killing mobs, etc. I also expect to do, especially during leveling.
I also want to ask you, what do you want to be added specifically on top of this? What kind of solo content do you want?
First there is no reason to assume most people are in guilds given most MMO players are solo, meaning at best your looking at 50% of people being in guilds.
Create a guild for solo players and tell them to never play together.
That guild could prevent all other players to log into the server and claim the server for soloers only and break Steven's pillars.
Then all other 13 examples are whatever they want to do.
First there is no reason to assume most people are in guilds given most MMO players are solo, meaning at best your looking at 50% of people being in guilds.
Create a guild for solo players and tell them to never play together.
That guild could prevent all other players to log into the server and claim the server for soloers only and break Steven's pillars.
Then all other 13 examples are whatever they want to do.
No, because I'm not in the business of telling people there having fun wrong.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's only up to you whether you think the things I've listed are enough, or if you want some more content for solo players.
Yep, this. As I have been saying, as long as solos don't expect to farm raids and magically get good rewards out of that - there's plenty of stuff to do in the game.
Gameplay should not all be equally valuable, especially when the person themselves realizes that they're not in peak form or do not want to participate in activities that would represent peak in-game performance.
Here's the rest of that list:
- gathering
- caravans and highwayman system
- battlegrounds/arenas
- mob farming in general
- instanced housing
- some level of crafting and processing
- open world events
- questing
- participating in the economy, selling stuff on the AH, making money
Right away I'm going to knock off Questing and Mob farming, If I just spent 300 hours doing that then I'm not going to want to do more of that at max level, yes at some point I will probably do more quests but I'm coming at this as a fresh max level character.
So here are the problems, Gathering will be highly curtailed due to all the top end gear being crafted and needing mats to be repaired.
Caravans and battle grounds are the same system and I'm not interested in getting involved in one sided battles that will be lost quickly. I'm also not interested in destroying things other people have made. If they have instanced versions that are more geared towards balance I will probably see how much I like them.
Arenas I will probably do if they look any good, which they don't right now. 1v1 is a literal lottery where the person that gets their hard counter the least wins. 2v2 and 3v3 will be comp dominated, the lowest you could go and hope to get any kind of skill based grading which is more skill then luck would be 4v4. Not something you want to do with out getting some kind of gear first though.
I have a real house I don't care about a fake one.
Yes assuming I'm able to get the materials.
Open world events, maybe. Problem is if the rewards are too good, then I'm just a guy standing there with some good rewards and one click away from them having it. Again most of you have a completely different mind state then I do.
While I'm sure some people love to play the market it's really not my thing.
It's only up to you whether you think the things I've listed are enough, or if you want some more content for solo players.
Yep, this. As I have been saying, as long as solos don't expect to farm raids and magically get good rewards out of that - there's plenty of stuff to do in the game.
Gameplay should not all be equally valuable, especially when the person themselves realizes that they're not in peak form or do not want to participate in activities that would represent peak in-game performance.
I agree with everything except the plenty to do. There are avenues that aren't covered. In particular PvP.
Here's the rest of that list:
- gathering
- caravans and highwayman system
- battlegrounds/arenas
- mob farming in general
- instanced housing
- some level of crafting and processing
- open world events
- questing
- participating in the economy, selling stuff on the AH, making money
Right away I'm going to knock off Questing and Mob farming, If I just spent 300 hours doing that then I'm not going to want to do more of that at max level, yes at some point I will probably do more quests but I'm coming at this as a fresh max level character.
So here are the problems, Gathering will be highly curtailed due to all the top end gear being crafted and needing mats to be repaired.
Caravans and battle grounds are the same system and I'm not interested in getting involved in one sided battles that will be lost quickly. I'm also not interested in destroying things other people have made. If they have instanced versions that are more geared towards balance I will probably see how much I like them.
Arenas I will probably do if they look any good, which they don't right now. 1v1 is a literal lottery where the person that gets their hard counter the least wins. 2v2 and 3v3 will be comp dominated, the lowest you could go and hope to get any kind of skill based grading which is more skill then luck would be 4v4. Not something you want to do with out getting some kind of gear first though.
I have a real house I don't care about a fake one.
Yes assuming I'm able to get the materials.
Open world events, maybe. Problem is if the rewards are too good, then I'm just a guy standing there with some good rewards and one click away from them having it. Again most of you have a completely different mind state then I do.
While I'm sure some people love to play the market it's really not my thing.
It's only up to you whether you think the things I've listed are enough, or if you want some more content for solo players.
Yep, this. As I have been saying, as long as solos don't expect to farm raids and magically get good rewards out of that - there's plenty of stuff to do in the game.
Gameplay should not all be equally valuable, especially when the person themselves realizes that they're not in peak form or do not want to participate in activities that would represent peak in-game performance.
I agree with everything except the plenty to do. There are avenues that aren't covered. In particular PvP.
I mean, the logical conclusion here is that this game isn't for you, or others like you.
You have been presented with the options the game offers, and said you basically don't like any of them. If you don't like what this game has to offer, why are you paying it any attention?
Here's the rest of that list:
- gathering
- caravans and highwayman system
- battlegrounds/arenas
- mob farming in general
- instanced housing
- some level of crafting and processing
- open world events
- questing
- participating in the economy, selling stuff on the AH, making money
Right away I'm going to knock off Questing and Mob farming, If I just spent 300 hours doing that then I'm not going to want to do more of that at max level, yes at some point I will probably do more quests but I'm coming at this as a fresh max level character.
So here are the problems, Gathering will be highly curtailed due to all the top end gear being crafted and needing mats to be repaired.
Caravans and battle grounds are the same system and I'm not interested in getting involved in one sided battles that will be lost quickly. I'm also not interested in destroying things other people have made. If they have instanced versions that are more geared towards balance I will probably see how much I like them.
Arenas I will probably do if they look any good, which they don't right now. 1v1 is a literal lottery where the person that gets their hard counter the least wins. 2v2 and 3v3 will be comp dominated, the lowest you could go and hope to get any kind of skill based grading which is more skill then luck would be 4v4. Not something you want to do with out getting some kind of gear first though.
I have a real house I don't care about a fake one.
Yes assuming I'm able to get the materials.
Open world events, maybe. Problem is if the rewards are too good, then I'm just a guy standing there with some good rewards and one click away from them having it. Again most of you have a completely different mind state then I do.
While I'm sure some people love to play the market it's really not my thing.
It's only up to you whether you think the things I've listed are enough, or if you want some more content for solo players.
Yep, this. As I have been saying, as long as solos don't expect to farm raids and magically get good rewards out of that - there's plenty of stuff to do in the game.
Gameplay should not all be equally valuable, especially when the person themselves realizes that they're not in peak form or do not want to participate in activities that would represent peak in-game performance.
I agree with everything except the plenty to do. There are avenues that aren't covered. In particular PvP.
I mean, the logical conclusion here is that this game isn't for you, or others like you.
You have been presented with the options the game offers, and said you basically don't like any of them. If you don't like what this game has to offer, why are you paying it any attention?
See you say that but the game is doing 99% of what I want it to do, and the 1% isn't unreasonable for a PvP game to have.
Here's the rest of that list:
- gathering
- caravans and highwayman system
- battlegrounds/arenas
- mob farming in general
- instanced housing
- some level of crafting and processing
- open world events
- questing
- participating in the economy, selling stuff on the AH, making money
Right away I'm going to knock off Questing and Mob farming, If I just spent 300 hours doing that then I'm not going to want to do more of that at max level, yes at some point I will probably do more quests but I'm coming at this as a fresh max level character.
So here are the problems, Gathering will be highly curtailed due to all the top end gear being crafted and needing mats to be repaired.
Caravans and battle grounds are the same system and I'm not interested in getting involved in one sided battles that will be lost quickly. I'm also not interested in destroying things other people have made. If they have instanced versions that are more geared towards balance I will probably see how much I like them.
Arenas I will probably do if they look any good, which they don't right now. 1v1 is a literal lottery where the person that gets their hard counter the least wins. 2v2 and 3v3 will be comp dominated, the lowest you could go and hope to get any kind of skill based grading which is more skill then luck would be 4v4. Not something you want to do with out getting some kind of gear first though.
I have a real house I don't care about a fake one.
Yes assuming I'm able to get the materials.
Open world events, maybe. Problem is if the rewards are too good, then I'm just a guy standing there with some good rewards and one click away from them having it. Again most of you have a completely different mind state then I do.
While I'm sure some people love to play the market it's really not my thing.
It's only up to you whether you think the things I've listed are enough, or if you want some more content for solo players.
Yep, this. As I have been saying, as long as solos don't expect to farm raids and magically get good rewards out of that - there's plenty of stuff to do in the game.
Gameplay should not all be equally valuable, especially when the person themselves realizes that they're not in peak form or do not want to participate in activities that would represent peak in-game performance.
I agree with everything except the plenty to do. There are avenues that aren't covered. In particular PvP.
I mean, the logical conclusion here is that this game isn't for you, or others like you.
You have been presented with the options the game offers, and said you basically don't like any of them. If you don't like what this game has to offer, why are you paying it any attention?
See you say that but the game is doing 99% of what I want it to do, and the 1% isn't unreasonable for a PvP game to have.
The game isn't offering you any content that you want.
That is 99% of what a game needs to do.
So, the game is doing 1% of what you want, not 99%.
If this game was doing 99% of what you want (I am somewhat suspect about your knowledge of how percent works), you wouldn't need to be here asking if there is a problem for your gameplay style.
Cool thing. Would you please provide 15 examples (plenty to do)?
1. General mob grinding
2. World events
3. General questing/commissions
4. Solo pking
5. Bounty hunting
6. Fishing
7. Gathering
8. Crafting
9. Treasure hunting
10. Node wars, guild wars too really, if you choose to and/or are allowed to be solo. Guild wars obviously only if you are a "solo" player who just so happens to be in a guild. Node sieges...maybe. Not sure how exactly those work yet, and who can get in, whether solo or not.
11. Caravans, inasmuch as the system's design ends up encouraging players to spontaneously defend or attack nearby caravans. We've heard of solo caravans, and there's mules too. Still lots unclear here, but there are indications that solos will be able to participate
12. Exploration/scouting/spying
13. General trading/auction house play/personal player stalls/traveling merchant
14. Lootwhore. Go to hotspots where people die often either to pve or pvp fights breaking out, and just loot people. Only possible because the game is designed in a way that allows it to be something you can do. No guildies on? Only an hour to play anyway? Head to the hotspot and lootwhore. Laugh at the chaos and shenanigans later irl when you log off. A bit unsavory, but can be lots of fun doing it to people who deserve it. Which is most people. Because they'd do it to you. See how that works. On the flip side, be a traveling/patrolling noble knight for your node or other areas. Intervene in fights where you think an injustice is happening. Yes, you can do this solo. Eat some salmon, get the omega 3's going, so you can make good decisions on which fights to take and which not to. It's very doable. Again, only possible in the game because the game allows that freedom for things to happen.
15. Achievement hunting/pet and mount collecting/housing(even if only an apartment, a bit of crop farming, decorating maybe)/religious and social organization progression.
Interesting quote from the wiki about "social organizations."
"Social organizations cater for solo players who don't wish to engage in guild-oriented organizations."
First there is no reason to assume most people are in guilds given most MMO players are solo, meaning at best your looking at 50% of people being in guilds.
Create a guild for solo players and tell them to never play together.
That guild could prevent all other players to log into the server and claim the server for soloers only and break Steven's pillars.
Then all other 13 examples are whatever they want to do.
No, because I'm not in the business of telling people there having fun wrong.
You said 50% play solo. You would just have to bring them into your guild by describing your goal. Then the server would be for you and people like you.
Comments
Agree. It’s what I was trying to explain in my message just before that one you quoted.
My apologies I didn't see that one.
They don't have the lowest risk though, or rather, they do have the lowest risk if they avoid most of the content in the open-world. And then I would ask, what's the point of even playing the game, if you are not going to engage in the content it offers?
They have the highest risk of getting 0 rewards.
They're missing out on caravans, housing/freeholds, sieges, ow dungeons, world bosses, sea content probably. If all they can do in game is just hang around, kills some mobs, etc. without doing anything even remotely challenging or meaningful, then I'd just say what's the point of playing (sure there absolutely are some players that will play like this, but I'd say most of the solo/casual crowd is looking for something more).
All of what you've mentioned is "side content" that is not enough on its own. It's maybe enough for players to try the game out, and play for a month or two, but then there's no point, as you are not doing the actual content which the game revolves around.
I think your point regarding IRL stuff is somewhat true, but not to a such large extent. Yes, if you are killing it IRL, you won't care about proving yourself to others in an MMO as much, but there still is that competitive element, and you want to engage with the content in order to have fun. Competition is also fun in its own way.
Steven doesn't want to make a soloable mmo, but he IS making an mmo where you can be solo. You simply need to know what you're doing, as this comment pointed out
The way I did what?
And I guess my issue with that is, stuff like housing/freeholds shouldn't be only for groups. Caravans also shouldn't be only for groups.
The game doesn't need to be soloable, it just needs meaningful content for solo players.
Also I just do not agree with that quoted part.
"All I have to do to be competitive is make gold" - in a game where in order to do so, you will need a group, and you will need to spend a lot of time to even think about affording top tier gear. I'd imagine the real gold making methods will be locked behind caravans, and top tier crafting, probably also selling rare drops from dungeons/world bosses. If you want to be solo or casual, you can maybe do gathering, low level crafting, etc. - but you will simply need to work 5x as hard, and spend 5x longer to get gold, because it's not going to be as profitable as stuff I mentioned above. And you cannot afford to work 5x as hard if you are a casual player, remember, you don't have the time.
"Remember this about end game and it doesn't matter solo or grp, casual or hard core everyone will have pretty much access to similiar gear potential. So it will just come down to who's killin who and who's taking who's stuff!
Gear potential between such players is not similar at all in practice. Top level gear will be only shared between top level players.
I'm not even arguing that this is a bad thing, but I just wanted to point out that the argument made no sense.
Who's killing who is going to really be hardcore players killing other hardcore players as well as regular players, while regular players will not be able to kill hardcore players. So it's only going to be hardcore players taking other people's stuff.
I think this is the issue with casual players. They think that they should still be competitive even though they do not invest competitive time into the activity.
Should a random dude who knows how to swim be able to compete in the olympics, just cause he KNOWS how to swim?
I know this sounds elitist as fuck and all that, but I do not understand this entitlement of "well, I can only spend 1h a day on the game but I should be able to do all the things as well as someone who can spend 10h on the game daily". No. No you should not, because that would be an absolutely unreasonable thing to ask for irl either.
Casual players that will just be minding their own business will rarely get attacked, because their small guilds (if they even have one) won't be wardecced (as long as wardec balancing is good, and I'm 100% giving feedback towards that goal), and corruption will dissuade any dudes from just PKing people left and right.
Intrepid simply need to distribute their mobs in a well-thoughtout way, and I believe that they're already on the right track with the star system. Even that farm we saw in the bard showcase would work well for this. Casuals and solos would be the people on the outskirts of the farm, killing 0* mobs at their own pace, while partied or hardcore solos will be closer to the center farming 2-3* mobs and fighting over them.
There's no benefit for a group to go and mow down 0* mobs, because they have an entire group to feed and 0* will never be enough. Then you add any potential wars and stuff and those parties will be so preoccupied with other enemies that they HAVE to kill, that random casual/solo in the vicinty will not matter, and instead would be a waste of time and resources to even attempt to kill.
As for caravans and housing - you can do both as a solo player. You can join any caravan on any side and see how it goes. You may definitely fail, but that's no different from a group of players failing cause there was another group of players on the other side. We will also supposedly have solo caravans, but I dunno about that entire part of the system and whether it'll even remain in the game, so it's hard to discuss it either way.
And freeholds are meant to be the peak form of housing, just as instanced pve is considered peak pve. And neither are meant to be done alone. Build social connections, find friends that have FHs and they'll give you family access to them. I'm 100% sure there'll even be sellable FH access, so if you're super determined to level up your processing and do big boi stuff - you can work towards that, but obviously at a slower pace.
In other words, casuals should not have the same progress pace as hardcore players. And solos cannot have the same pace as partied up people. And unguilded parties cannot have the same pace as guilded ones. There's gotta be a hierarchy to these things because Steven wants to push people to socialize in a more meaningful way than just "I'm a solo, but I find a completely random pug every day to do content", because that is not socializing - that's single playing with other single players, and that kind of design has already led some games to the point of completely replacing other players in the party with bots.
If casuals and solos could easily keep up the pace with partied people (let alone gain same kinds of rewards) - why in the everflyingfuck would anyone party up? Why be social when you can clear the game w/o being social? Sure some default social butterflies will always find others to hang out with, but it won't be because the game told them to do it.
I personally want a social mmo where people are made to group up, because I know from my own experience (and that of my friends and guildmates throughout the years) that this kind of design leads to a much better social structure in the game. Steven seems to think along those lines as well.
What's "elitist" about having a coherent line of thinking? If people want bigger rewards and challenges, then handing out equal rewards to those who do less is not the way to go. Yes, casuals and solos are going to miss out on parts of the content.
But so will those who prefer PvP or PvE over the other.
Just like those who focus on artisan or caravan game play.
Just like those who focus on Naval/pirate game play.
Just like those who focus on node occupation in specific region/biome.
Just like those who run around with their small guild as a mercenary force helping out bigger guilds in their objectives.
Any big MMO will have tons of content (and the associated rewards) you will miss out on when you decide to play the game a certain way. And its meant to be that way because not every player is interested in all aspects of the game.
The notable detail IMO is that Ashes' content will be even more restricted by being temporarily and conditionally available as well as far apart (no fast travel etc), making the total sum of rewards also more or less restricted.
One can call that unfair or elistist but these are necessary conditions to create a ladder of challenges. If time, gear or skill requirements are deemed "not fun"/"bad" for tiers of rewards to chase after, then I honestly wonder in what way one would want to reward a player for putting in more effort than another - and this effort includes organising with other players.
If all they're going to do is grind gold, then they won't have time for anything else. Besides, my point was that such a player would need to put in way more time and effort to get the same results, than someone who's more hardcore, in a groups that clear content, groups that do caravans, etc.
But that's not my argument. I agree with you on this totally. You shouldn't expect to be at the same level if you don't put in the effort.
I'm just arguing the quote you posted, because it didn't make sense to me. It makes the game out to be solo friendly, and how everyone is at the same playing field, how everyone will be able to get gold to buy top gear, etc. when that's just not the case at all.
Sure, I agree with this.
- What do you get from caravans, other than potential PvP, as a solo player who just happens to join it? Rewards have to be there, if they manage to defend it, and it shouldn't be up to players to give out the rewards to those who came to help. I think we will have something like that in Highwayman system - that we haven't seen yet.
But I'm just not sure about the whole caravan system in this game.
In Archeage it had a good balance of risk/reward, where you can choose to do safe zone trade runs, more risky runs within conflict zones, and also risky runs across the sea, the riskiest of them all to Freedich island which is in the middle of the sea, and is regularly camped by PvP players looking to gank and steal those trade packs. You could do them both in groups or solo.
In Ashes, it just seems like the baseline risk level is always high, because it creates a PvP zone around a carvan, it requires you to build it up, it takes time for it to come to your location, etc. etc.
Maybe a solo caravan could simply be limited in amount of goods even further, but it also doesn't spawn a PvP zone around it. So if you want to gank it, you risk corruption - just an idea.
But again, it needs to be tested first, we need to see it in action.
- I'm comparing Freeholds to Archeage's housing system, in terms of what you can do on it.
I could easily manage to get a plot (not being handed out, not free), then grind some gold and buy out the neighbors next to me, so I have a bigger plot. Being in a family just meant you were more efficient, you pooled resources together, and overall you made way more profit off your land, than if you were solo. Besides, I could just join a family with several plots of land, and that same family could also have more plots around the map.
In Ashes however they will be very limited, and only the most powerful people will be able to get one (or rather families/guilds). Only 1 person will actually own just 1 piece of land. You cannot get to do whatever you want on it, if you have other family members who are also wanting to use it.
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I don't even know what we are even arguing about here at this point lol
I feel like I'm just providing counterarguments to your counterarguments, but we are getting further away from my actual point by doing so, because I have to provide counterarguments against things I don't believe in necessarily.
Obviously you shouldn't expect hardcore players and casuals to be on the same level, just how solo players will not match up to groups. I never argued otherwise.
That is just a natural state of things, except in Ashes it seems heavily forced to favor certain group of players.
Every system, or rather every piece of content in the game favors hardcore players or groups to some extent or is specifically designed for only those kinds of players in mind. - In general I do not have a problem with group content, and it's only natural to expect someone who puts in more time and effort to be ahead.
I don't even disagree with most of the stuff you said about the game, how it should push players to group up, etc.
I'm not asking for same kind of rewards, I'm just asking for some content that you can do as a solo player, it doesn't have to have the same level of rewards as group content, it just needs to exist and give you something.
Having that will in no way impact the key principles or pillars of this game, because you will still have so much group content that matters, that gives out gear, that rewards you, that is basically the key part of the game. It's something that you will do in this game on a regular basis, just like how you do dungeons/raids in WoW, or how you do farming/gathering, trade runs, and PvP in Archage.
I'm simply asking for something else to be there for solo or more casual players. Whether that's horizontal progression content, whether it's battlegrounds, aka instanced PVP, or instanced PvE, housing system that's accessible to most who put in a bit of effort, where you can actually farm/produce stuff, whether it's just something in the open-world (like caravans or even events in general).
We just haven't seen enough of that, they keep repeating solo players will have a place, the will have stuff to do, but we only hear about group content/systems, hardcore content/systems, or content/systems that are going to be limited to select few people (Node mayors).
But who argued for this? I certainly haven't, so all I'm seeing is people wrongly assuming what my position on this is. Nobody argued for EQUAL rewards.
Apartments will have rudimentary farming. Mules will be solo caravans, while the highwaymen system that you mentioned will provide some game-based rewards to those who're willing to join full caravans. There'll definitely be soloable pve. Maaaaybe hardcore soloable pve, but that is definitely an arguable statement at this point. We will have arenas, which will have 1v1s. And majority of events that's been shown so far have obviously been designed with solo players in mind (quick pugs during the event showcase, Steven soloing mobs into a quest-based event during that commission showcase, soloable mobs outside of the farm during the bard showcase, etc).
All of that stuff is something that solo players can do to a varrying extent of success. And I wasn't necessarily responding just to your comment when talking about people wanting equal rewards for solo performance and stuff, cause just yesterday I've discussed this in a different thread where those rewards were talked about, so I simply generalized my address here as well, while using your comment as some base context.
As for the speed of solo progress - yes, it's gonna take longer, because we're comparing collective human-hours of a party doing an activity vs the hours of a singular human doing the same activity. 1h of gameplay by a full party represents 8h of invested time, while a solo player only invests 1. So of course it'll take longer for the solo player to achieve something, but it's still achievable.
And think of it this way. A hardcore party on release would have to pioneer a shitton of content and gearing progress. They'll have to gather their own resources, process it with their own hands and craft it themselves as well, because they'd be on the forefront of overall server progress. They'll spend a tooooon of 8-person time investment on this. Literal hundreds of hours.
Then, a solo player, who's been just leveling up big by bit at their own pace, comes to the same lvl of progress months later (weeks if they're hardcore). By that point all the hardcore party/guild players have scaled up their productions, set up player shops and stalls that not only provide services related to gear progress, but also come at a way cheaper price than what they were at release. All resource are also way cheaper because thousands of players (of ranging casuality) have been playing the game, farming stuff and selling it on the market.
So now, this solo player has come into a saturated market with set up infrastructure and services. It'll take this player quite a bit less time to get the same gear that the release party spent on gearing their members with the same stuff.
I've seen this exact situation take place on numerous L2 servers with any person who'd start playing on the server several weeks after release (let alone several months or years on official servers or long-running private ones).
And at that point the difference between hardcore players and casual/solos will come down to the power scaling of gear in the game. If Intrepid somehow manage to balance player power in the way they promised, that would mean that by the time a solo player gets to lvl50 - they're only a few dozen % weaker than top progress hardcore dudes (if even that). And while, yes, a few dozen % is still a pretty big gap - all those hardcore players would be constantly fighting each other for better cutting edge loot and their gear decay would also keep them from flying into the power stratosphere. This means that solos would be coming up on the hardcores' diminishing returns bit by bit, which would then roughly equalize them, or at least make it easier to bridge the gap through skill (if the solo player has enough of it to make that bridge).
We could discuss if that kind of gear progress pace is good or not (Noaani believes it's utter shite, for example
But my main point here is simple. Solo and casual players can 100% enjoy the game if they do not expect to magically be at the same power lvl and pace of progress as hardcore/party people are at all times. I know this because I saw solo players enjoy L2, even with that game's much poorer content variety and much more hardcore design of "you either party up or you don't do shit".
And all of that is even before any potential changes in AoC's design that might stem from all the inevitable whining and complaining that casuals and single mmo players will do throughout A2.
p.s. I guess Steven disliked AA's housing design, which is why he went for a way more exclusive and luxurious overworld housing. It's definitely a choice
And that same party will get rewarded for it immensely. Whether it's in terms of power, or in terms of gold if they decide to sell what they craft.
By the time solo player catches up, that group will have already moved on from that level, and will be way ahead in terms of power, gold, etc.
It's always better to play from day 1 to capitalize on the early market situation, rather than come in weeks or months later, when the same stuff is not profitable, and when to make the same amount of gold, the difficulty and effort required goes up drastically.
As a gatherer you'd make way more money in the first few weeks, rather than 2 months later - for example.
So yeah, it's easier to get into months later, but also harder at the same time.
Anyways, I do agree with your post, didn't feel like I had to reply to anything else really.
But, I'm only hanging out because friends I've made on the Forums want me to hang out in game with them.
Carebears won't truly be playing Ashes. There are plenty of other games to play for those who are not in Steven's target audience: Gamers who enjoy EvE, ArcheAge, Lineage 2, Albion.
You are right on a couple things here and that is soloing will be harder is some cases and you will be shut out of certain things if u don't want to group.No MMO is made for solo play it is made for groups that is obvious.
Things you are wrong about!
"Only top players will have top gear" sounds like you grew up playing WoW but this isn't! As long as there is gold to be made top components will make there way to the auction house.
Gold! The two biggest gold makers I see are going to be starting in second place Harvesting/Gathering and this is definitely solo game and a major reason why I solo because I really hate people touching my resources. Fishing will be up there too.
The first and king of gold making will be Animal Husbandry another completely soloable game play. Ranger/Rogue with hunting and animal husbandry out in the wilderness not a need or a care for anyone else if you want it that way. This is the same concept as the Bio engineer in SWG the ones who knew what they were doing were filthy rich. You can have a a gigantic ravenous river otter as a mount! Pure bank!
Housing. everyone can buy a house or apartment in a node you don't need a guild or group for that so worries there. As for freeholds well even guilds will have to get inventive there are only so many to go around.
I never said "don't have the time" I implied that it was wasting time. I also don't get the 5x as hard to level the xp required is the same for everyone yes in a group you get a modifier so find other people running solo and group up with them for the xp bonus and go your separate ways.
Not every player out there is hyped from AoC, not fully engaged, not fully informed.
If you land on the website, the first slogan is:
"Experience an MMORPG where everything is permanently impacted by your actions – explore, trade, build, and let the world take form."
Or like this?
"Our world structure is dynamic, and built to react to your actions. Cities will rise and fall as you shape the world of Verra. Quests and secrets will unlock as populations gather and their needs grow."
So, so dynamic world (like in 10 other MMOs, cool!) and cool pve questing and secrets (right, exploring! So I wil find treasure chests like in The Witcher Fantasy RPGs, cool!).
The current showcase leads to - correct, PvE content.
All of these points WILL appeal to the (modern) mmo players, independent if the are old-fashioned or modern.
That's what is written and seen on the official webpage.
Perhaps communication, marketing and written statements and slogans should be more precise, more honest and more transparent.
What about...
"Experience an elitist MMORPG where everything is permanently competitive by your actions – invest your time, get stronger, defeat other players and let the world burn in hardcore pvp battles."
Wouldn't this slogan adressing something completely different than exploring, trading and building?
Wouldn't this attract the real target audience to the game and leave out all the others, immediately?
Is this game for casual players, so players that cannot invest 10h per day?
Answer that question within Q&A on the webpage. That's what potential players want to know. It's the core for the attracted veterans, because a veteran means it's no child or teenager, right? Time quota is different for them, but they are NOT the target group at all.
Make clear, as a company and developer, to put your messages right: It's challenging content, but also time consuming one (or not - whatever fits). Can you play 1h in the evening a challenging conent? Of course you can - I did that in WoW over years. It's called arena or mythic dungeons. Time and skill are not absolutely the same aspects, you can be a casual (in time) but veteran (in skill). It also can be de other way: Lot of time but no skill. That's also ok, no offense meant. In large scale pvp games this is more important then skill, because your individual skill is not weightend that much in a 200 vs 200 fight, but it is in a 3v3 fight (which can be done in 5 to 10 minutes).
Are caravans running around for 1h, 2h, 8 hours? How long will a siege take - provide a forecast, Steven for sure has an idea on that (talking "prime time"). And that's one of the main questions for million players out there. Can I play this game in a meaningful way without decreasing my real life because I'm called from a developer that wants to design a game for MMO guys that play these games since decades - so guys that are, alrgiht, decades older nowadays. How can an avarage player, which is listening to that vision and call, play 5h (?) caravan gameplay? 8h sieges?
Of course Stevan and the rest doesn't want to state this truth, because he needs to attract players. He says "it's not for everybody", but he talks to everybody and want to attract everybody - otherwise the statements must be completely different.
If Ashes is a hardcore pvp elitist game surrounding about the wet dream of only having group and raid fights all over the day, then write it down, be transparent, define the target group.
Communicate it that way. Don't talk about "we have maces in our game" for 25min during an August developer stream, but provide statements, in written form, officially on the website, that say something like:
- This is a hardcore group-based pvp game
- This is no MMO for players that prefer and like solo content or rewarding and meaningful content to be done without groups or guilds
- This is a game which needs your highest time investment to get rewards, otherwise you will fall back and thats intented design, because we don't want you to get everything if you are not fully engaged in the game
- This game will not focus on social playing together but fully on fighting against each other and get your fun out of this - the regression of your enemy player is your progression!
- In this game other players will be able to loot certain parts of your loot after killing you so your character will have regression and thats intended design
- In this game you can attack every player at nearly every time, no player can disable this to secure his gameplay
Just examples, it's not my point that all those message are precise, but I'm convinced you got the message.
Then it will NOT appeal to (modern) MMO players. Then it will ONLY appeal to a very, very, very minor playerbase that like this "design".
Write it down. Put it on the website. On the landing page. Get 5 bullet points over there that adress precicsly what game it wants to be and which target group should play it.
No? That's too transparent? Too honest? Too risky? Well, more risk, more reward - right? It would make sure, within a very short time, that only the same players within the same bubble will talk about their MMO without having to discuss other, differentiated feedback with other, more experienced MMO players. Would save some nerves I guess.
Clear statements, transparent communication, clear target audience and thus all those players can, within their bubble and experience out of 2-3 MMOs, talk about design patterns and pillars of a game that advantage elistist players, frequent players and hardcore players, investing 10 hours every day, terminating every other player as identified as bad randoms and enemies, increasing toxic behaviour, envy and resentment because every design, in the end, leads to the situation, that once player or group is getting rewarded due to the loss and defeat of another. Progress for one player means regression for another. And this will only work and will only be accepted by a very, very special target group with very very special mindset and behaviour when it comes to computer games and having fun by playing them by harming other players for the own entertainment.
Ok, this has nothing to do with the topic at all but I'm shocked and that's a pity.
100 Dollar are ~90 Euros. With 90 Euros I'm not surving one day with my family (middle europe). That's a small shopping for general food and some drinks/water.
So, 90 Euros for such a key is like a tiny tiny percentage of ... well, let's stop here, that's not the topic, but if talking about "MMO veterans" I'm convinced that 90 Euros / 100 Dollars are just meaning nothing, this target group (although meanwhile we know: The target group seems to be somewhere else, right?) doestn't care about this peanuts.
To be sure: That's not important or valid for me, I've played on pvp servers (in WoW) so I've got all the big punches there and I'm not afraid of pk-ing and pvp-ing in small and big scale. Additionally I'm a bit pre-informed about AoC (but not satisfied with some aspects, like too time consuming content, like no meaningful possibility to get some stuff done alone/solo if just no group is desired for a 1-2h gameplay on some Sunday evening - but still I'm patient and wait what testing, feedback and future changes/solutions will show so still give it a try), but it's about the general communication and general design of different content areas that firstly seems to attract MMO veterans but after an in depth look you get the truth out of all these social hostile mechanics and way to time-consuming mechanics (which doesn't suit to aged MMO veterans but teenagers, students and, yes, let's talk about it, unemployed players) and that will be misleading for a lot of players also in the future. So: State it right and honest, otherwise - as you've already said - this threads will be there for the next 10 years, because that's what players expect - variety, choice, diversity and of course they will compare with other MMOs out there but inevitably not with only 1 or 2 of them.
Solo players have plenty to do at max Level Adventurer.
You make a lot of claims about how the various systems supposedly work against solo players, but that is just your own pessimistic paranoia.
Ashes is not designed to cater to Solo players.
If that means most Solo players will play some other game better suited to Solo players, that's OK.
Ashes is not made for everyone.
But, people can Solo in Ashes if they really want to - plenty of stuff players can do Solo - even at max Adventurer Level.
The word "want" implies, that it's always a free choice. Sometimes it is - but there's nothing bad with that decision.
Is it that difficult to consider situations, where a player (although he is in a guild) has no desire to group with others or due to his onlie activity there is just right at this moment no group available which he can join?
Let's imagine Thursday morning. The player is logs into the game, checks the guild UI and recognizes, out of 80 guild members 3 are online. For whatever reason. Both are afk.
If AoC has no choices and no meaningful (= getting rewards, progress) content for that player just loggin into the game for 1-2h of playing his favorite MMO then, seriously, I'm convinced about DOA, yes, I'm, because I've experienced this since 20y+ playing of MMOs.
There must be content that can be done alone. "Solo" is nothing negative. It's nothing "bad", it's nothing antisocial. It only happens from time to time. What will be the answer of AoC for this situations and players?
Sunday evening. A player logs in at 21:40, because friend visit is gone and the player decides to put 1-2 hours into his favorite MMO. His guild members are online and already setup a group of 40 players for an event going on. 1 other player is online but idling in the city of a node.
There is no content for the the player that just logged in and wants to play meaningful, rewarding content? The answer is: Log out, because it's group based and you don't "want" to play in a group so there is nothing for you, we don't care about you, it's not "designed" to cater you. Seriously? You want to tell me or us that "everything" is about grouping together and play and act in groups, 100% uptime the next 10 years? Did you really play MMOs before with an avarage (normal) real life and different availabilities, different emotional states (hard workiing day, don't want to talk and group up, only want to play silently some stuff for myself) and different situation happening when it comes to group or guild members being online at same (or different) times so you are just too early or too late to join an event? I cannot imagine this, I just can't imagine that there is 100% uptime, 100% group-based focues and 100% focusing only this type of gameplay, mechanics, design and content. For me it's a lie, a dream, something which will just not happen, as long as we are not talking about guild with members that are 15h online every day and doing nothing more then playing this MMO the entire day.
So, there is solo-content, plenty of it. What will this guild member guy do 1-2 hours at Sunday evening, without his guild and group? 15 examples are enough to get a picture.
I like to have the choice, a meaningful way to play both in groups and solo, depending on the particular situation, day, availability, possibility. And good design considers this and takes care. You cant just ignore the market saying „we dont care“, you have to. I‘m convinced you must offer content that considers both situations and playing sytles and reward you - in both.
But only AirborneBerserker can do that, by writing a very very long speech which nobody will read.
The other 14 topics (out of "plenty to be done")?
I read everything he posted.
It's weird because I agree with both Nik and you here.
I agree with your post about communication. They should definitely tell it how it is, it would at least clear so much stuff up, and we would probably avoid most of the conversations from this thread.
Here's the rest of that list:
- gathering
- caravans and highwayman system
- battlegrounds/arenas
- mob farming in general
- instanced housing
- some level of crafting and processing
- open world events
- questing
- participating in the economy, selling stuff on the AH, making money
Probably something else that I've forgot.
Is it enough? Well it's kind of enough if you think about these as activities you'll be doing in the downtime, between group stuff.
I absolutely agree with this, because there are many situations where you are kind of forced to play solo. As I keep repeating, you cannot expect players to be grouped up 24/7 whenever they're logged in. They need stuff to do outside of groups.
It's only up to you whether you think the things I've listed are enough, or if you want some more content for solo players.
When I look at it now, I might do gathering, some mob farming, events, maybe join some caravan stuff if I run into that, arena PvP, selling stuff on the AH, looking for ways to make money, etc. - That's probably good enough for some time, but the question is for how long.
Questing, killing mobs, etc. I also expect to do, especially during leveling.
I also want to ask you, what do you want to be added specifically on top of this? What kind of solo content do you want?
Create a guild for solo players and tell them to never play together.
That guild could prevent all other players to log into the server and claim the server for soloers only and break Steven's pillars.
Then all other 13 examples are whatever they want to do.
No, because I'm not in the business of telling people there having fun wrong.
Great. You can all ignore each other and play solo.
Gameplay should not all be equally valuable, especially when the person themselves realizes that they're not in peak form or do not want to participate in activities that would represent peak in-game performance.
Right away I'm going to knock off Questing and Mob farming, If I just spent 300 hours doing that then I'm not going to want to do more of that at max level, yes at some point I will probably do more quests but I'm coming at this as a fresh max level character.
So here are the problems, Gathering will be highly curtailed due to all the top end gear being crafted and needing mats to be repaired.
Caravans and battle grounds are the same system and I'm not interested in getting involved in one sided battles that will be lost quickly. I'm also not interested in destroying things other people have made. If they have instanced versions that are more geared towards balance I will probably see how much I like them.
Arenas I will probably do if they look any good, which they don't right now. 1v1 is a literal lottery where the person that gets their hard counter the least wins. 2v2 and 3v3 will be comp dominated, the lowest you could go and hope to get any kind of skill based grading which is more skill then luck would be 4v4. Not something you want to do with out getting some kind of gear first though.
I have a real house I don't care about a fake one.
Yes assuming I'm able to get the materials.
Open world events, maybe. Problem is if the rewards are too good, then I'm just a guy standing there with some good rewards and one click away from them having it. Again most of you have a completely different mind state then I do.
While I'm sure some people love to play the market it's really not my thing.
I agree with everything except the plenty to do. There are avenues that aren't covered. In particular PvP.
I mean, the logical conclusion here is that this game isn't for you, or others like you.
You have been presented with the options the game offers, and said you basically don't like any of them. If you don't like what this game has to offer, why are you paying it any attention?
See you say that but the game is doing 99% of what I want it to do, and the 1% isn't unreasonable for a PvP game to have.
The game isn't offering you any content that you want.
That is 99% of what a game needs to do.
So, the game is doing 1% of what you want, not 99%.
If this game was doing 99% of what you want (I am somewhat suspect about your knowledge of how percent works), you wouldn't need to be here asking if there is a problem for your gameplay style.
1. General mob grinding
2. World events
3. General questing/commissions
4. Solo pking
5. Bounty hunting
6. Fishing
7. Gathering
8. Crafting
9. Treasure hunting
10. Node wars, guild wars too really, if you choose to and/or are allowed to be solo. Guild wars obviously only if you are a "solo" player who just so happens to be in a guild. Node sieges...maybe. Not sure how exactly those work yet, and who can get in, whether solo or not.
11. Caravans, inasmuch as the system's design ends up encouraging players to spontaneously defend or attack nearby caravans. We've heard of solo caravans, and there's mules too. Still lots unclear here, but there are indications that solos will be able to participate
12. Exploration/scouting/spying
13. General trading/auction house play/personal player stalls/traveling merchant
14. Lootwhore. Go to hotspots where people die often either to pve or pvp fights breaking out, and just loot people. Only possible because the game is designed in a way that allows it to be something you can do. No guildies on? Only an hour to play anyway? Head to the hotspot and lootwhore. Laugh at the chaos and shenanigans later irl when you log off. A bit unsavory, but can be lots of fun doing it to people who deserve it. Which is most people. Because they'd do it to you. See how that works. On the flip side, be a traveling/patrolling noble knight for your node or other areas. Intervene in fights where you think an injustice is happening. Yes, you can do this solo. Eat some salmon, get the omega 3's going, so you can make good decisions on which fights to take and which not to. It's very doable. Again, only possible in the game because the game allows that freedom for things to happen.
15. Achievement hunting/pet and mount collecting/housing(even if only an apartment, a bit of crop farming, decorating maybe)/religious and social organization progression.
Interesting quote from the wiki about "social organizations."
"Social organizations cater for solo players who don't wish to engage in guild-oriented organizations."
Ironic heh. But there ya go.
You said 50% play solo. You would just have to bring them into your guild by describing your goal. Then the server would be for you and people like you.