First off Kilion good f*cking job buddy lol your intial post was excellent!
My personal opinion I think this is nothing more than click bait for his video or he is big WoW carebare and doesn't comprehend what an actual pvx mmo is all about but considering his articulated responses I would lean heavily toward the former!
My personal opinion I think this is nothing more than click bait for his video or he is big WoW carebare and doesn't comprehend what an actual pvx mmo is all about but considering his articulated responses I would lean heavily toward the former!
Lmao, yeah, obviously, I spent time writing the main post and reply to long comments to get those 5 extra views. For that statement alone you deserve a PhD in logic.
Secondly, I never ever touched WoW or had it installed on my PC.
Finally, I've played Lineage for 12+ years which is a PvX game with open world PvP.
Literally nothing you wrote even remotely makes any sense or has anything in common with objective reality.
In addition to the academy system, the Manor system from L2 can be a nice thing to adapt in AoC and create a link between low and high level players.
The manor system could be only used by academicians ofc.
I mean, you can have crops and livestock, not sure that we need Manor tbh
Please, stop disagreeing with a point that I have never made. This is a strawman fallacy. I don't associate reaching max level with leaving the game. But. Leviling is an element of progression. When you reach max level, you end up having one thing less to do. Taking into account that level doesn't matter when it comes to content (unlike in other games), my point is to keep leveling relevant for a longer period of time. That's it.
This is not a strawman fallacy when you use the wording in your opening post, point #1 - "reach level 50" and "prevent those players from leaving".
Exactly. With the way the system is built, it pretty much doesn't matter whether reaching the next level takes 3 or 7 hours. It will be rewarding. Additionally, the more difficult a milestone is, the more satisfaction you get when you hit it.
Apparently, I did not make the point clear. It does matter whether it takes 3 or 7 hours because of how people play. A casual player who only plays for approximately an hour will still be able to get a skill point in that approximate amount of time (using the 225 hours—it would take 1.125 hours). Doubling (or tripling) the time to level will create a result where anyone playing less than 2 hours in a session will have no perceivable feedback reinforcing "advancement".
2 or 3 months is not a significant difference on a grand scheme of things. 2 or 12 would be one, for example
I suppose "grand scheme" certainly leaves a lot of room for interpretation, but yes, I do believe a 50% increase is a significant difference. For example, it puts a decent percentage of casual players actually reaching level cap at approximately 9 months, rather than the oft-quoted 6 months, which is a rather significant amount of time, especially considering the demographic being referred to.
This is not a strawman fallacy when you use the wording in your opening post, point #1 - "reach level 50" and "prevent those players from leaving".
I never said it was the only reason. Might be one of the reasons, but not the only one.
And yes, not all skipped content will become irrelevant, but a certain part of it definitely will.
Apparently, I did not make the point clear. It does matter whether it takes 3 or 7 hours because of how people play. A casual player who only plays for approximately an hour will still be able to get a skill point in that approximate amount of time (using the 225 hours—it would take 1.125 hours). Doubling (or tripling) the time to level will create a result where anyone playing less than 2 hours in a session will have no perceivable feedback reinforcing "advancement".
I would agree if AoC was focused exclusively on grind and there was nothing else to do. You'd be absolutely right. Yet AoC offers plenty of ways to get that dopamine hit, and reaching new level is only of them.
I suppose "grand scheme" certainly leaves a lot of room for interpretation, but yes, I do believe a 50% increase is a significant difference. For example, it puts a decent percentage of casual players actually reaching level cap at approximately 9 months, rather than the oft-quoted 6 months, which is a rather significant amount of time, especially considering the demographic being referred to.
Even if you take a look at statistics provided on the first page, it's pretty obvious that you are talking about ~15-20% of player base (~1 hour a day of play time). Additionally, those general number of ~225 hours will inevitably get less over time for many reasons I mentioned in my post. Furthermore, I don't even mention that a certain percentage of players including casual players will take days off on launch to enjoy the game - this happens basically every time new MMO or server launches.
Finally, taking into account the variety of content AoC has to offer and the fact that character's level is not that important, how come longer leveling is even an issue?
200+ hrs makes me happy. Most MMOs are trivializing leveling. Heck allot of games you can just buy a top level char. I like where it is. I don't want to see the sped up but I don't want to see it slowed down.
Finally, taking into account the variety of content AoC has to offer and the fact that character's level is not that important, how come longer leveling is even an issue?
I feel like I've explained why it's an issue. Receiving feedback that reinforces the idea of advancement is necessary for this type of game. That is separate from getting your dopamine hit. Someone can play and have fun, but they also need to have "advanced."
I mentioned the timing previously, but to put it another way, how vertical progression has been currently explained allows for someone playing on the extreme casual end to still receive that "advancement feedback" while scaling appropriately (the assumption is that someone who plays more expects more, and playing for 4.5 hours in a session would return 3-4 skill points and 1 level). Honestly, it feels like the current plan for progression is mathematically near perfect. Almost as if someone thought this through before making a decision.
200+ hrs makes me happy. Most MMOs are trivializing leveling. Heck allot of games you can just buy a top level char. I like where it is. I don't want to see the sped up but I don't want to see it slowed down.
You got this in while I was responding. If I had seen it first, I would have agreed with you in my last post.
The average casual player will reach 50 in about a year. if you even double this it will take them between 1 and 2 years. Bit of a long time to just level a character. So while right now they wont be left behind, if you double the time you wont have to worry about it because 6 months into leveling they will quit the game due to being only level 12-15.
The main thing your missing is the amount of replay ability PvP content has. It's basically an infinite amount of content due to how it's structured if done properly. So that wont be a problem.
Your coming at the game like it's a PvE game its not its a PvX game with a slight emphasis on PvP.
As for the leveling being boring that's a gameplay issue not a length issue really. As long as the thing your doing is fun you can do it for a very long time. So I agree on this.
Its irrelevant that AOC wont be a game to rush through. The point is people have that mindset and will bring that with them when they play the game. Which means they will rush through the leveling process even though they shouldn't.
The easiest solution to this problem is make it clear to the people coming into the game that leveling is not a chore its a part of the game and they should take their time and enjoy it.
First off Kilion good f*cking job buddy lol your intial post was excellent!
My personal opinion I think this is nothing more than click bait for his video or he is big WoW carebare and doesn't comprehend what an actual pvx mmo is all about but considering his articulated responses I would lean heavily toward the former!
He literally said Lineage 3 times in the video and has Narc saying he has Linage 2 rot. Why would you say this?
My personal opinion I think this is nothing more than click bait for his video or he is big WoW carebare and doesn't comprehend what an actual pvx mmo is all about but considering his articulated responses I would lean heavily toward the former!
Lmao, yeah, obviously, I spent time writing the main post and reply to long comments to get those 5 extra views. For that statement alone you deserve a PhD in logic.
Secondly, I never ever touched WoW or had it installed on my PC.
Finally, I've played Lineage for 12+ years which is a PvX game with open world PvP.
Literally nothing you wrote even remotely makes any sense or has anything in common with objective reality.
Mic drop
You will find none of that logic stuff here. It's mostly wild reactionary posts based on what feeling certain words invoke.
Even if you take a look at statistics provided on the first page, it's pretty obvious that you are talking about ~15-20% of player base (~1 hour a day of play time). Additionally, those general number of ~225 hours will inevitably get less over time for many reasons I mentioned in my post. Furthermore, I don't even mention that a certain percentage of players including casual players will take days off on launch to enjoy the game - this happens basically every time new MMO or server launches.
Finally, taking into account the variety of content AoC has to offer and the fact that character's level is not that important, how come longer leveling is even an issue?
You can tweak the amount of exp down a bit after launch. Assuming it takes 50 hours less hit max level they can tweak the xp down on the heavy traffic areas.
The average casual player will reach 50 in about a year. if you even double this it will take them between 1 and 2 years. Bit of a long time to just level a character. So while right now they wont be left behind, if you double the time you wont have to worry about it because 6 months into leveling they will quit the game due to being only level 12-15.
Leveling is planned to take ~230h, which is also most likely in the context of fresh nodes leveling up and not a fully established server. How the hell did you come to 1 year for casuals (let alone 2)? That would imply that casuals play for like 30-40min a day, while also being shitty at the game as well, cause by their 3rd month all nodes and economy would be established and leveling would be way more streamlined.
I doubt people like that will even look at Ashes with interest, let alone try playing it.
200+ hrs makes me happy. Most MMOs are trivializing leveling. Heck allot of games you can just buy a top level char. I like where it is. I don't want to see the sped up but I don't want to see it slowed down.
I mean this number will probably be changed a bit +/- 50 hours but around where it is would be best.
200+ hrs makes me happy. Most MMOs are trivializing leveling. Heck allot of games you can just buy a top level char. I like where it is. I don't want to see the sped up but I don't want to see it slowed down.
That's fair. If I understood it right, that is your personal preference.
I'm curious whether prolonging leveling would have a net positive or net negative impact on overall player base, in your opinion?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I find it very interesting, that you keep saying that "level doesn't matter" (which is true) and "there is no endgame" (which is true). If it doesn't matter, how come extending leveling is an issue?
Kilion answered this already. The Level does not necessarily matter as much as the reward milestones.
And then, at some point there will be a cap for that progression path which is really based on what the devs are able to implement into the game before Feature Lock.
Arbitrarily extending Adventure Level cap makes Leveling feel like uneccessary busy-work, especially when many MMORPG players already consider Leveling to be obsolete and/or a grind, because the hours to the next reward milestone will be extended by several hours. And it will likely be several hours of doing the same repetitive content.
@Flanker
The average casual player will reach 50 in about a year. if you even double this it will take them between 1 and 2 years. Bit of a long time to just level a character. So while right now they wont be left behind, if you double the time you wont have to worry about it because 6 months into leveling they will quit the game due to being only level 12-15.
How did you manage to get 1 year though? It's like what, play ~40 minutes a day? It wouldn't be an average casual player for sure. There might people like that, but that would be a minority.
The main thing your missing is the amount of replay ability PvP content has. It's basically an infinite amount of content due to how it's structured if done properly. So that wont be a problem. Your coming at the game like it's a PvE game its not its a PvX game with a slight emphasis on PvP.
I don't think that's something I'm missing at all. "Potentially infinite amount of content" - I absolutely agree with this phrasing. At same time, that potentially infinite amount has an expiry date that is individual for every player. Someone gets tired of it in a week, someone in 6 months, but eventually everyone gives up. Once again, you can take a look at PvP servers of L2 that also have a potentially infinite amount of PvP content. They mostly die within 1-2 months.
As for the leveling being boring that's a gameplay issue not a length issue really. As long as the thing your doing is fun you can do it for a very long time. So I agree on this.
Absolutely. Once again, I've seen that happening on L2 Classic servers where the variety of ways to level up was extremely limited - yet players, even casual players were doing that FOR YEARS. Why? Because even reaching a level that is not really important and doesn't give you new skills felt EXTREMELY rewarding. Keep in mind the psychological aspect of it as well - for many players that number "50" near their name will act like a carrot on a stick that motivates them to move forward. You may agree or disagree with it, but it is a fact and it works like that, especially on "archievers"
Its irrelevant that AOC wont be a game to rush through. The point is people have that mindset and will bring that with them when they play the game. Which means they will rush through the leveling process even though they shouldn't.
Correct. In any game with vertical progression level rush is inevitable
The easiest solution to this problem is make it clear to the people coming into the game that leveling is not a chore its a part of the game and they should take their time and enjoy it.
The easiest? Explaining literally anything to people is one of the most difficult things you can imagine. Screenshot this: when Alpha 2 starts, there will be people who scream on top of their lungs that game is not finished and it has bugs. Despite 482942 times of Steven saying that Alpha is an Alpha, not actual game.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Leveling is planned to take ~230h, which is also most likely in the context of fresh nodes leveling up and not a fully established server. How the hell did you come to 1 year for casuals (let alone 2)? That would imply that casuals play for like 30-40min a day, while also being shitty at the game as well, cause by their 3rd month all nodes and economy would be established and leveling would be way more streamlined.
20-30 minutes per day and 8 hours per weekend is still Casual Time for an MMORPG.
So, yes, Casual Time players should be able to reach max Adventurer Level in 6 months.
I think more important than months to reach max Adventurer Level, is how many hours in-between Leveling milestones.
Nodes constantly rise and fall, so I dunno that "All Nodes would be established" is meaningful.
Which is why there is not Endgame.
There's still stuff for players to do, regardless of whether characters are low Level or max Level.
Kilion answered this already. The Level does not necessarily matter as much as the reward milestones.
Listen, I would absolutely agree with you and shut up forever, if Ashes was a grindy old school Korean MMO where you spend 99% grinding. Yet, it's not the case. And it's not the only progression path where you get reward milestones.There is plenty of others:
- Artisan level progression;
- Housing;
- Upgrading your gear;
- Exploring new areas;
- Completing quests;
- Killing the bosses;
- Completing dungeons;
- Winning PvP;
- Completing events, such as caravans, world events, etc.
- And others, including a reward for leveling up.
And then, at some point there will be a cap for that progression path which is really based on what the devs are able to implement into the game before Feature Lock.
Well, there will be, unless they implement a system of post-leveling progression, that could have the additional milestones post level 50. Might be an alternative solution actually.
Arbitrarily extending Adventure Level cap makes Leveling feel like uneccessary busy-work, especially when many MMORPG players already consider Leveling to be obsolete and/or a grind, because the hours to the next reward milestone will be extended by several hours. And it will likely be several hours of doing the same repetitive content.
Once again, my reply for the first paragraph still stands and applies to this part as well.
20-30 minutes per day and 8 hours per weekend is still Casual Time for an MMORPG.
Nodes constantly rise and fall, so I dunno that "All Nodes would be established" is meaningful.
Which is why there is not Endgame.
There's still stuff for players to do, regardless of whether characters are low Level or max Level.
I don't really get this hyperfixation on people who play MMOs "half an hour a day". Everyone knows what MMO is and that if you play it for 30 mins a day, then probably achieving certain milestones would take days.
I have an impression that (not talking about you specifically) and maybe I'm wrong but, that this kind of virtue signalling is an attempt to rationalize personal preferences that exist due to the stereotype that "ThE aCtUaL gAmE sTaRtS aT lVl 50".
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I dunno what you mean by "post-Leveling progression".
Ashes has many different progression paths besides Adventurer Level.
Artisan, Social Org, Race, Religion, Node, Naval, Castle, Guild, Highwayman...
Node progression and Castle progression in constant as Nodes rise and fal and as Castles prep for Sieges.
Each of those progression paths will have its own expectation of hours it takes before one receives a reward.
If it's Adventurer Level, players will be expecting to gain a Level within xx hours and thereby gain some new ability that significantly changes combat. It's not really about hitting max Adventurer Level in x months.
It's actually about how quickly players can gain new skills and abilities - so that repetitive combat does not feel boring.
The Ashes design also calls for Seasonal content updates every 3 or 4 months. Which is the current trend.
Old school grinding is repetitively repeating activities for minimal xp - like killing individual mobs with no Quests or doing the Carebear Challenge: Leveling with 0 kills.
I don't know what your definition of grinding is.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't really get this hyperfixation on people who play MMOs "half an hour a day". Everyone knows what MMO is and that if you play it for 30 mins a day, then probably achieving certain milestones would take days.
Attaining which milestones would take days?
I have no idea what you're trying to say.
I have an impression that (not talking about you specifically) and maybe I'm wrong but, that this kind of virtue signalling is an attempt to rationalize personal preferences that exist due to the stereotype that "ThE aCtUaL gAmE sTaRtS aT lVl 50".
Tell me you don't know what virture signialing is without telling me you don't know what virtue signaling means.
Yeah... The real game starts at Endgame is a failing. It's not something that's intended by game devs.
I play 4-8 hours per day and I'm not really rushing to Endgame - I just have the time to play Hardcore Time.
I dunno what you mean by "post-Leveling progression".
Ashes has many different progression paths besides Adventurer Level.
Artisan, Social Org, Race, Religion, Node, Naval, Castle, Guild, Highwayman...
Node progression and Castle progression in constant as Nodes rise and fal and as Castles prep for Sieges.
Each of those progression paths will have its own expectation of hours it takes before one receives a reward.
If it's Adventurer Level, players will be expecting to gain a Level within xx hours and thereby gain some new ability that significantly changes combat. It's not really about hitting max Adventurer Level in x months.
It's actually about how quickly players can gain new skills and abilities - so that repetitive combat does not feel boring.
The Ashes design also calls for Seasonal content updates every 3 or 4 months. Which is the current trend.
Old school grinding is repetitively repeating activities for minimal xp - like killing individual mobs with no Quests or doing the Carebear Challenge: Leveling with 0 kills.
I don't know what your definition of grinding is.
Exactly. EXACTLY. How come we come to the opposite conclusions based on the information we both agree?
My definition of grinding is "being forced to do a monotonous task over a long period of time with no alternatives to achieve a certain milestone".
And there are MANY different ways to gain XP in Ashes - not only grinding mobs. It's also completing quests and story arcs, participating in events, gathering, processing, crafting, exploration etc. Tired of grinding mobs? Switch to gathering. Gathered enough - switch to processing. Tired of that as well? Sign up to escort someone's caravan or launch your own. There is plenty of alternatives when it comes to gaining XP. And this is the reason why I personally wouldn't care if it took 5000 hours to reach level 50. Variety of activities - this is what matters, not the amount of time you need to spend to achieve X.
Tell me you don't know what virture signialing is without telling me you don't know what virtue signaling means.
In this particular case, it's pretending to care about a specific group of players that are actually the minority, while attempting to rationalize the way things are because it fits your personal preferences, despite the fact that this might affect the overall game's longevity. This comes along with cherry picking when certain people might disagree with a couple of takes while completely ignoring the takes they can't argue against.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
My definition of grinding is "being forced to do a monotonous task over a long period of time with no alternatives to achieve a certain milestone".
And there are MANY different ways to gain XP in Ashes - not only grinding mobs. It's also completing quests and story arcs, participating in events, gathering, processing, crafting, exploration etc. Tired of grinding mobs? Switch to gathering. Gathered enough - switch to processing. Tired of that as well? Sign up to escort someone's caravan or launch your own.
I mean... Quests typically provide bulk XP, while Farming individual mobs, Gathering and Exploring provide minimal XP.
So... Gathering and Exploration would be grinding because they provide minimal Adventurer XP.
Quests and Story Arcs would not be grinding because they provide bulk XP.
If you are tired of grinding. Do some Questing.
Crafting is only going to give minimal xp for Adventurer Level. You Craft to gain decent Artisan XP - also primarily through Artisan Quests/Tasks.
I don't think Caravan defense/offense is going to provide much Adventurer XP unless it's associated with a Quest. We'll have to see. Caravan defense/offense will help with Highwayman progression.
There is plenty of alternatives when it comes to gaining XP. And this is the reason why I personally wouldn't care if it took 5000 hours to reach level 50. Variety of activities - this is what matters, not the amount of time you need to spend to achieve X.
You seem to be trying to conflate many progression paths into one pool of XP.
The hours I spend before I get a reward in a specific progression path is important.
Quickly reaching max Adventurer Level is not particularly important. And should not be particularly important.
The real limitation there is how quickly the devs can design, develop and implement content.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Gathering/Artisan path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Adventurer path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Social Org path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Religion path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Racial progression path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Highwayman progression path.
But, they don't all provide bulk XP to the Adventurer progression path.
What you have suggested is arbitrarily prolonging the hours it takes to gain milestone rewards in the Adventurer path just so it takes longer than 225 hours to reach max Adventurer Level.
Ashes already has better solutions for ending "The Real Game Starts at Endgame" than your proposal.
The real limitation there is how quickly the devs can design, develop and implement content.
Yuuup and I'm very skeptical about that. Not because I think that Intrepid is not capable of that - they literally have everything to make Ashes the best MMO, but because things, especially complicated things, tend to take much more time than they are supposed to.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Gathering/Artisan path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Adventurer path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Social Org path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Religion path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Racial progression path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Highwayman progression path.
But, they don't all provide bulk XP to the Adventurer progression path.
I get your point and it makes sense. However, I'd like to point out 2 things:
1. Some players may choose only a few of those activities, not all of them.
2. I think you underestimate the general bias in players' heads when it comes to adventuring level. They might ignore some other activities but a significant percentage of player base will be focused primarily on that.
I mean... combat and Quests typically provide bulk XP, while Gathering and Exploring provide minimal XP.
So... Gathering and Exploration would be grinding because they provide minimal Adventurer XP.
Quests and Story Arcs would not be grinding because they provide bulk XP.
If you are tired of grinding mobs. Do some Questing.
Crafting is only going to give minimal xp for Adventurer Level. You Craft to gain decent Artisan XP - also primarily through Artisan Quests/Tasks.
I don't think Caravan defense is going to provide much Adventurer XP unless it's associated with a Quest. We'll have to see.
I mention that in my video as well. TL;DW - one of the key things that needs to be done in this case is adjusting XP rewards across all activities. Not making them equal obviously, but making them balanced. So that there are viable alternatives to grinding mobs.
How did you manage to get 1 year though? It's like what, play ~40 minutes a day? It wouldn't be an average casual player for sure. There might people like that, but that would be a minority.
6 hours a week the low end of what an MMO causal would spend on the game. That's assuming hyper efficient leveling which most people probably wont be doing.
I don't think that's something I'm missing at all. "Potentially infinite amount of content" - I absolutely agree with this phrasing. At same time, that potentially infinite amount has an expiry date that is individual for every player. Someone gets tired of it in a week, someone in 6 months, but eventually everyone gives up. Once again, you can take a look at PvP servers of L2 that also have a potentially infinite amount of PvP content. They mostly die within 1-2 months.
LoL is a purely PvP game played on the same map and most people play with the same champion most of the time. This isnt a weakness of PvP its a weakness of MMO PvP and how MMOs work.
Absolutely. Once again, I've seen that happening on L2 Classic servers where the variety of ways to level up was extremely limited - yet players, even casual players were doing that FOR YEARS. Why? Because even reaching a level that is not really important and doesn't give you new skills felt EXTREMELY rewarding. Keep in mind the psychological aspect of it as well - for many players that number "50" near their name will act like a carrot on a stick that motivates them to move forward. You may agree or disagree with it, but it is a fact and it works like that, especially on "achievers"
No they did it because it was one of the only options when the game came out in 03. They do it now because they enjoyed it so much back then that their baseline emotional state is fun while playing the game.
The easiest? Explaining literally anything to people is one of the most difficult things you can imagine. Screenshot this: when Alpha 2 starts, there will be people who scream on top of their lungs that game is not finished and it has bugs. Despite 482942 times of Steven saying that Alpha is an Alpha, not actual game.
Then don't explain it. Tell them rushing to max is possible but not how you get the most out of the game.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm very skeptical about that. Not because I think that Intrepid is not capable of that - they literally have everything to make Ashes the best MMO, but because things, especially complicated things, tend to take much more time than they are supposed to.
It's OK to be skeptical. Especially about development time.
Before 2030.
I get your point and it makes sense. However, I'd like to point out 2 things:
1. Some players may choose only a few of those activities, not all of them.
2. I think you underestimate the general bias in players' heads when it comes to adventuring level. They might ignore some other activities but a significant percentage of player base will be focused primarily on that.
Exactly. The 225 hours is the devs guesstimate for how long it takes to reach Level 50 Adventurer Level when focused on Adventurer Quests.
There are also several other, separate, progression paths besides just the Adventurer path.
I mention that in my video as well. TL;DW - one of the key things that needs to be done in this case is adjusting XP rewards across all activities. Not making them equal obviously, but making them balanced. So that there are viable alternatives to grinding mobs.
The viable alternative to grinding is Questing.
But, there will be Quests in each progression path.
The 225 hours is the devs guesstimate for how long it takes to reach Level 50 Adventurer Level when focused on Adventurer Quests.
And, sure, if you don't only focus on Adventurer Questing it will take somewhat longer than 225 hours to reach max Adventurer Level.
Dodging the bullet was always a strategy in the Ashes design - and they have designed with some solutions.
(We didn't need to see your vid to know that...)
But, you know, the Forums are here for discussion - so it's all good.
6 hours a week the low end of what an MMO causal would spend on the game. That's assuming hyper efficient leveling which most people probably wont be doing.
So, why do we focus on a lower extreme point instead of "the average MMO player"?
LoL is a purely PvP game played on the same map and most people play with the same champion most of the time. This isnt a weakness of PvP its a weakness of MMO PvP and how MMOs work.
You probably misunderstood it. I was talking about PvP servers with high rates like x50-x100 and higher. The point that I was trying to make is that even though PvP loop is potentially infinite, in reality it's not.
And no, Lineage 2 had a variety of different classes with unique skills. One of the patches that is considered to be decent was called High Five and it had 36 unique classes.
No they did it because it was one of the only options when the game came out in 03. They do it now because they enjoyed it so much back then that their baseline emotional state is fun while playing the game.
I would appreciate if you didn't talk so confidently about the things you have no idea about. Even though the came originally came in 2003-2004, it changed significantly throughout the years. Nostalgia is not the only reason why people play games.
Yes but it wont be the main thrust like other games. For a while at least.
It won't, so why worry about it taking longer?
Then don't explain it. Tell them rushing to max is possible but not how you get the most out of the game.
This part serves no purpose. I stated a fact and you write... this...
Comments
My personal opinion I think this is nothing more than click bait for his video or he is big WoW carebare and doesn't comprehend what an actual pvx mmo is all about but considering his articulated responses I would lean heavily toward the former!
Lmao, yeah, obviously, I spent time writing the main post and reply to long comments to get those 5 extra views. For that statement alone you deserve a PhD in logic.
Secondly, I never ever touched WoW or had it installed on my PC.
Finally, I've played Lineage for 12+ years which is a PvX game with open world PvP.
Literally nothing you wrote even remotely makes any sense or has anything in common with objective reality.
Mic drop
This is not a strawman fallacy when you use the wording in your opening post, point #1 - "reach level 50" and "prevent those players from leaving".
Apparently, I did not make the point clear. It does matter whether it takes 3 or 7 hours because of how people play. A casual player who only plays for approximately an hour will still be able to get a skill point in that approximate amount of time (using the 225 hours—it would take 1.125 hours). Doubling (or tripling) the time to level will create a result where anyone playing less than 2 hours in a session will have no perceivable feedback reinforcing "advancement".
I suppose "grand scheme" certainly leaves a lot of room for interpretation, but yes, I do believe a 50% increase is a significant difference. For example, it puts a decent percentage of casual players actually reaching level cap at approximately 9 months, rather than the oft-quoted 6 months, which is a rather significant amount of time, especially considering the demographic being referred to.
And yes, not all skipped content will become irrelevant, but a certain part of it definitely will.
I would agree if AoC was focused exclusively on grind and there was nothing else to do. You'd be absolutely right. Yet AoC offers plenty of ways to get that dopamine hit, and reaching new level is only of them.
Even if you take a look at statistics provided on the first page, it's pretty obvious that you are talking about ~15-20% of player base (~1 hour a day of play time). Additionally, those general number of ~225 hours will inevitably get less over time for many reasons I mentioned in my post. Furthermore, I don't even mention that a certain percentage of players including casual players will take days off on launch to enjoy the game - this happens basically every time new MMO or server launches.
Finally, taking into account the variety of content AoC has to offer and the fact that character's level is not that important, how come longer leveling is even an issue?
I feel like I've explained why it's an issue. Receiving feedback that reinforces the idea of advancement is necessary for this type of game. That is separate from getting your dopamine hit. Someone can play and have fun, but they also need to have "advanced."
I mentioned the timing previously, but to put it another way, how vertical progression has been currently explained allows for someone playing on the extreme casual end to still receive that "advancement feedback" while scaling appropriately (the assumption is that someone who plays more expects more, and playing for 4.5 hours in a session would return 3-4 skill points and 1 level). Honestly, it feels like the current plan for progression is mathematically near perfect. Almost as if someone thought this through before making a decision.
You got this in while I was responding. If I had seen it first, I would have agreed with you in my last post.
The average casual player will reach 50 in about a year. if you even double this it will take them between 1 and 2 years. Bit of a long time to just level a character. So while right now they wont be left behind, if you double the time you wont have to worry about it because 6 months into leveling they will quit the game due to being only level 12-15.
The main thing your missing is the amount of replay ability PvP content has. It's basically an infinite amount of content due to how it's structured if done properly. So that wont be a problem.
Your coming at the game like it's a PvE game its not its a PvX game with a slight emphasis on PvP.
As for the leveling being boring that's a gameplay issue not a length issue really. As long as the thing your doing is fun you can do it for a very long time. So I agree on this.
Its irrelevant that AOC wont be a game to rush through. The point is people have that mindset and will bring that with them when they play the game. Which means they will rush through the leveling process even though they shouldn't.
The easiest solution to this problem is make it clear to the people coming into the game that leveling is not a chore its a part of the game and they should take their time and enjoy it.
He literally said Lineage 3 times in the video and has Narc saying he has Linage 2 rot. Why would you say this?
You will find none of that logic stuff here. It's mostly wild reactionary posts based on what feeling certain words invoke.
You can tweak the amount of exp down a bit after launch. Assuming it takes 50 hours less hit max level they can tweak the xp down on the heavy traffic areas.
I doubt people like that will even look at Ashes with interest, let alone try playing it.
I mean this number will probably be changed a bit +/- 50 hours but around where it is would be best.
I'm curious whether prolonging leveling would have a net positive or net negative impact on overall player base, in your opinion?
And then, at some point there will be a cap for that progression path which is really based on what the devs are able to implement into the game before Feature Lock.
Arbitrarily extending Adventure Level cap makes Leveling feel like uneccessary busy-work, especially when many MMORPG players already consider Leveling to be obsolete and/or a grind, because the hours to the next reward milestone will be extended by several hours. And it will likely be several hours of doing the same repetitive content.
So, yes, Casual Time players should be able to reach max Adventurer Level in 6 months.
I think more important than months to reach max Adventurer Level, is how many hours in-between Leveling milestones.
Nodes constantly rise and fall, so I dunno that "All Nodes would be established" is meaningful.
Which is why there is not Endgame.
There's still stuff for players to do, regardless of whether characters are low Level or max Level.
- Artisan level progression;
- Housing;
- Upgrading your gear;
- Exploring new areas;
- Completing quests;
- Killing the bosses;
- Completing dungeons;
- Winning PvP;
- Completing events, such as caravans, world events, etc.
- And others, including a reward for leveling up. Well, there will be, unless they implement a system of post-leveling progression, that could have the additional milestones post level 50. Might be an alternative solution actually. Once again, my reply for the first paragraph still stands and applies to this part as well.
I have an impression that (not talking about you specifically) and maybe I'm wrong but, that this kind of virtue signalling is an attempt to rationalize personal preferences that exist due to the stereotype that "ThE aCtUaL gAmE sTaRtS aT lVl 50".
Ashes has many different progression paths besides Adventurer Level.
Artisan, Social Org, Race, Religion, Node, Naval, Castle, Guild, Highwayman...
Node progression and Castle progression in constant as Nodes rise and fal and as Castles prep for Sieges.
Each of those progression paths will have its own expectation of hours it takes before one receives a reward.
If it's Adventurer Level, players will be expecting to gain a Level within xx hours and thereby gain some new ability that significantly changes combat. It's not really about hitting max Adventurer Level in x months.
It's actually about how quickly players can gain new skills and abilities - so that repetitive combat does not feel boring.
The Ashes design also calls for Seasonal content updates every 3 or 4 months. Which is the current trend.
Old school grinding is repetitively repeating activities for minimal xp - like killing individual mobs with no Quests or doing the Carebear Challenge: Leveling with 0 kills.
I don't know what your definition of grinding is.
I have no idea what you're trying to say.
Tell me you don't know what virture signialing is without telling me you don't know what virtue signaling means.
Yeah... The real game starts at Endgame is a failing. It's not something that's intended by game devs.
I play 4-8 hours per day and I'm not really rushing to Endgame - I just have the time to play Hardcore Time.
My definition of grinding is "being forced to do a monotonous task over a long period of time with no alternatives to achieve a certain milestone".
And there are MANY different ways to gain XP in Ashes - not only grinding mobs. It's also completing quests and story arcs, participating in events, gathering, processing, crafting, exploration etc. Tired of grinding mobs? Switch to gathering. Gathered enough - switch to processing. Tired of that as well? Sign up to escort someone's caravan or launch your own. There is plenty of alternatives when it comes to gaining XP. And this is the reason why I personally wouldn't care if it took 5000 hours to reach level 50. Variety of activities - this is what matters, not the amount of time you need to spend to achieve X.
So... Gathering and Exploration would be grinding because they provide minimal Adventurer XP.
Quests and Story Arcs would not be grinding because they provide bulk XP.
If you are tired of grinding. Do some Questing.
Crafting is only going to give minimal xp for Adventurer Level. You Craft to gain decent Artisan XP - also primarily through Artisan Quests/Tasks.
I don't think Caravan defense/offense is going to provide much Adventurer XP unless it's associated with a Quest. We'll have to see. Caravan defense/offense will help with Highwayman progression.
You seem to be trying to conflate many progression paths into one pool of XP.
The hours I spend before I get a reward in a specific progression path is important.
Quickly reaching max Adventurer Level is not particularly important. And should not be particularly important.
The real limitation there is how quickly the devs can design, develop and implement content.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Gathering/Artisan path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Adventurer path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Social Org path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Religion path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Racial progression path.
In xx hours, I should be able to get a new, significant milestone reward in the Highwayman progression path.
But, they don't all provide bulk XP to the Adventurer progression path.
What you have suggested is arbitrarily prolonging the hours it takes to gain milestone rewards in the Adventurer path just so it takes longer than 225 hours to reach max Adventurer Level.
Ashes already has better solutions for ending "The Real Game Starts at Endgame" than your proposal.
I get your point and it makes sense. However, I'd like to point out 2 things:
1. Some players may choose only a few of those activities, not all of them.
2. I think you underestimate the general bias in players' heads when it comes to adventuring level. They might ignore some other activities but a significant percentage of player base will be focused primarily on that.
I mention that in my video as well. TL;DW - one of the key things that needs to be done in this case is adjusting XP rewards across all activities. Not making them equal obviously, but making them balanced. So that there are viable alternatives to grinding mobs.
6 hours a week the low end of what an MMO causal would spend on the game. That's assuming hyper efficient leveling which most people probably wont be doing.
LoL is a purely PvP game played on the same map and most people play with the same champion most of the time. This isnt a weakness of PvP its a weakness of MMO PvP and how MMOs work.
No they did it because it was one of the only options when the game came out in 03. They do it now because they enjoyed it so much back then that their baseline emotional state is fun while playing the game.
Yes but it wont be the main thrust like other games. For a while at least.
Then don't explain it. Tell them rushing to max is possible but not how you get the most out of the game.
Before 2030.
Exactly. The 225 hours is the devs guesstimate for how long it takes to reach Level 50 Adventurer Level when focused on Adventurer Quests.
There are also several other, separate, progression paths besides just the Adventurer path.
The viable alternative to grinding is Questing.
But, there will be Quests in each progression path.
The 225 hours is the devs guesstimate for how long it takes to reach Level 50 Adventurer Level when focused on Adventurer Quests.
And, sure, if you don't only focus on Adventurer Questing it will take somewhat longer than 225 hours to reach max Adventurer Level.
Dodging the bullet was always a strategy in the Ashes design - and they have designed with some solutions.
(We didn't need to see your vid to know that...)
But, you know, the Forums are here for discussion - so it's all good.
So, why do we focus on a lower extreme point instead of "the average MMO player"?
LoL is a purely PvP game played on the same map and most people play with the same champion most of the time. This isnt a weakness of PvP its a weakness of MMO PvP and how MMOs work.
You probably misunderstood it. I was talking about PvP servers with high rates like x50-x100 and higher. The point that I was trying to make is that even though PvP loop is potentially infinite, in reality it's not.
And no, Lineage 2 had a variety of different classes with unique skills. One of the patches that is considered to be decent was called High Five and it had 36 unique classes.
No they did it because it was one of the only options when the game came out in 03. They do it now because they enjoyed it so much back then that their baseline emotional state is fun while playing the game.
I would appreciate if you didn't talk so confidently about the things you have no idea about. Even though the came originally came in 2003-2004, it changed significantly throughout the years. Nostalgia is not the only reason why people play games.
Yes but it wont be the main thrust like other games. For a while at least.
It won't, so why worry about it taking longer?
Then don't explain it. Tell them rushing to max is possible but not how you get the most out of the game.
This part serves no purpose. I stated a fact and you write... this...