It can be fast or slow and that's not going to dictate if a game is 'good' or not. Too much of the discussion is dominated by people assuming that a particular rate that experienced in a game they enjoyed was WHY the game was good.
What is more important is power-disparity between players in a PvP game, it's not about time to reach max level, its about how much combat advantage ramps with player skill gained over time and how much it ramps with mindless 'grinding'. Losing to someone more skilled is fine, loosing to someone who just had a bigger number of hours played is not.
Great point. In my video I refer to a video of Steven saying (not word-for-word quote): "the level disparity won't play as big of a role as it did in other games. If my skill does 1000 damage to a target of my level, I don't want it to do 0 damage to a target that is 5 levels higher. One thing I hate in MMOs is such dampeners".
Will there be a power difference between level 47 and level 39? Absolutely. How serious would that be? Average to a degree, according to Steven who also said that "50% of your power is your level, 50% of your power is your gear"
We do not yet have any idea what kind of power disparity will exist between a level 25 player and a level 50, their might be little to none meaning that for all effective purposes the game content is fully open to you by 25 and the remaining leveling is more for prestige and diversity of your class. Without knowing the power curve we can't know what the idea leveling rate is.
I would assume that 25 level difference will be significant, but it wouldn't mean that level 25 is gonna deal 0 damage to level 50.
In general games like WoW compress leveling because they largely have established players who already did the long grind once and don't have the time in their lives to do it anymore so experiencing other classes is only apealing to them if it's fast, they already know the games mechanics to a T so their is almost nothing to learn.
Correct. Something tells me that back in 200something it wasn't their original design.
If leveling a character is not a LEARNING experience then it is a failure. When your mentaly engaged in the learning process of figuring out the use of your kit, or learning a location that you will actually continue to use then leveling is fun. If you ask me leveling could be nothing more then a series of 1v1 mob fights which introduces 1 element of your class kit at a time and just demonstrate mastery of it before you go to the next. Think of this as like testing out of a class in college, the point is to move directly to the level where learning needs to happen and move through each lesson as soon as profficiency is demonstrated.
I don't play RPGs for the PvP. So, yes, maybe gamers, like Lineage 2 fans, who are playing because they want decent Gear for PvP are not going to care about Class Leveling rates.
Power disparity between players is irrelevant to me.
You'd probably be surprised to find out that the majority of L2 players were still casual players, not hardcore PvPers.The average age of L2 player is probably 30+ and at age age we normally have less free time to spend on gaming
Level compression is a WoW solution for a game that has been running for 20 years. I dunno what that has to do with the current design for Ashes max Adventurer Level.
I'm wondering, how long did it take in WoW to reach the level cap like... 15 years ago?
By design, Ashes is a dynamic game, rather than a static game. Which means we will pretty much always be learning because encounters will rarely be exactly the same. Locations aren't static. Some of our Skills and Gear will be better for some encounters than for others.
In an RPG, ideally, Adventurer Leveling should be about more than just attacking or killing mobs. There should be more to Classes than just combat. But, yes, the pace to get a new element for your Class Kit should be reasonable, rather than a tedious grind.
Agree
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I agree, L2 is a different game and so is Archeage, GW2, SWG, WoW and all other games from which Intrepid took inspiration from. But despite the fact that the games are different, analyzing what they did right and wrong is better than pure guessing.
I mean... you are guessing when you claim that Ashes must dodge a bullet that the devs have already designed shields for.
One other point I would make about the solution you present.
Don't make special rule set servers. It has been suggested by folks in the past to make servers with different parameters, especially by the pvp vs no pvp crowd. However, dividing up the community before it even exists is a massive mistake.
How many special rule sets should we have? PVP servers, No pvp servers, RP servers, Regular servers, Seasonal servers, fresh start servers, fast lvl speed servers, medium lvl speed servers, slow level speed servers, hard core servers, no exp debt servers etc.
Let's have one rule set for everyone and go from there. As the years go on, maybe other server types can come up, but even then it's a mistake to divide your player base unless things are not working. Which by the way is usually when companies try new server ideas in an attempt to stop the bleeding.
6hr/day is a bigger weekly time commitment that a full time job. Taking a month and a half of that kind of dedicated playtime focused on leveling over progression in any other gameplay system (artisan, social orgs, player markets) is potentially already too long of a leveling timeline to keep players hooked in.
I'm aware of that, thank you. You'd be surprised to notice (if only you paid attention to what I actually wrote) that I was not appealing to this category of players. My point was that, how come we hyperfocus on those who play ~ half an hour a day (even though it's a tiny percentage) and consider this a relevant argument; yet we completely ignore 40+h players who are approximately the same percentage of population. I was not hyperfocusing on hardcore players, I the point was "Why when we talk about two player segments that are approximately equal, one matters and another doesn't?". You'd realize that if you weren't that mad.
Nothing about any of this is 'because intrepid say so'. Use some common sense. The average player is putting about 21 hours a week (maybe ~30 on the high end), which is 10+ weeks for most to hit the level cap.
Correct. If you check the first post, I estimate it as ~2 months. Not because I "disagree with Intrepid and know better how long will it take", but because I think that there are non-game-design-related factors that will speed up this process.
The no-lifing 100hours a week players you claim are common (incorrect, regardless)
Obviously, you're gonna skip this part and ignore my question, but - CAN YOU QUOTE MY WORDS WHERE I SAID THEY ARE COMMON? And maybe stop twisting the points I make? Thank you in advance!
Also: Quit trying to plug your stupid video. Thats such a new-age thing to do and no one likes it. Transcript it if you want anyone to bother engaging with your monologue to the camera.
Oh boy, how ridiculously stubborn you are in assumptions that make no sense. Is your brain CPU capable of estimating how much time it takes for non-native English speaker to write all the comments in this thread and then compare this time spent with the potential benefit from getting 6 views?
And transcript - seriously? You ignored points that I made in TL;DW yet you expect people to actually read and comprehend a 14-pages long wall of text? Makes as much sense as your accussation of my "self-promotion".
You can throw insults all you like; you're just showing your own issues. I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Name a single active game where the design was for more than 225 hours of dedicated exp-focused game time. Not private servers–those are useless to the discussion of an active, healthy MMO–but active ones. This amount of time needed to hit the maximum adventuring level is significantly over any of those that exist, there will be things for people to do while they level and learn their characters, but the best thing for an open world PvX game is for more people to be on level parity than less.
You get more competitive fights and less steamrolling.
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
2
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You'd probably be surprised to find out that the majority of L2 players were still casual players, not hardcore PvPers.The average age of L2 player is probably 30+ and at age age we normally have less free time to spend on gaming.
Why would I be surprised that the majority of L2 players were Casual-Time players?
That has nothing to do with this topic as far as I can tell.
Why do you mention that?
I'm wondering, how long did it take in WoW to reach the level cap like... 15 years ago?
20-10 years ago, MMORPGs, like EQ2 and WoW included Hell Levels to arbitrarily prolong Leveling.
When I hit a Hell Level in EQ2, I would switch to play WoW until I hit a Hell Level in WoW.
Then I would check to see if they had nerfed the Hell Levels in EQ2 and, if so, I would play EQ2 until I hit another Hell Level there.
Then I would check to see if WoW had nerfed their Hell Levels and, if so, I would play WoW.
I stopped playing WoW in 2011, after completing Cataclysm. Burnt out by the treadmill of playing until Quests run out at max Level Adventurer and then needing to wait 18+ months for new content.
I was completely burnt out from Endgame after playing Neverwinter Online in 2013. Playing NWO is when I first heard "Endgame is the real game" and saw people racing to max Level Adventurer within one month.
I thought I was done with MMORPGs for good after reaching max Level Adventurer with a couple of NWO characters, but then EQNext was announced that weekend.
EQNext's Storybricks seemed like a great solution for putting an end to the Endgame treadmill.
Ashes' Nodes system is basically a watered-down version of Storybricks - which is why I funded the Ashes Kickstarter.
I began playing WoW again with Shadowlands. Leveling felt much better the pace is quite comfortable and there are no Hell Levels. And they added some more stuff to do after reaching max Level Adventurer.
WoW: Dragonflight was tons of fun. Leveling feels awesome and there is plenty of fun stuff to do after reaching max Level Adventurer. Haven't played WoW this year only because there are too many other games I'm having fun playing. Hoping to jump back into WoW this weekend with The War Within. Although, I also want to check out Nightingale: Realms Rebuilt.
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
What a ridiculous statement, clearly shows your expertise on the matter. Makes as much sense as accusing a Rust player in griefing after he raided someone's base.
I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Wrong again for the 4283952th time. I never said game is DOA, it said that it might have a positive impact on game's longevity. Twisting my words and mental gymnastics is just a sign you got nothing better to say.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints.
One other point I would make about the solution you present.
Don't make special rule set servers. It has been suggested by folks in the past to make servers with different parameters, especially by the pvp vs no pvp crowd. However, dividing up the community before it even exists is a massive mistake.
How many special rule sets should we have? PVP servers, No pvp servers, RP servers, Regular servers, Seasonal servers, fresh start servers, fast lvl speed servers, medium lvl speed servers, slow level speed servers, hard core servers, no exp debt servers etc.
Let's have one rule set for everyone and go from there. As the years go on, maybe other server types can come up, but even then it's a mistake to divide your player base unless things are not working. Which by the way is usually when companies try new server ideas in an attempt to stop the bleeding.
That fair. It was just a suggestion. If people are not OK with that, alright, so be it.
I mean... you are guessing when you claim that Ashes must dodge a bullet that the devs have already designed shields for.
Mate, I really hope so. I truly want to see that I am wrong on this and don't want to end up in "Told you" situation.
1
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Flanker I do believe you make several very good points. This is a pvp game. Yes its pvx but it is pvp at its core. That being said, it should not be called griefing someone to taunt them into battle. I can see if its prolonged and obvious that the person is never going to pvp you, which is subjective in itself. But in a pvp game, you have the option to fight the person taunting you, or you can walk away. If he follows you around and keeps taunting you, takes it to the forums or discord, doxxes you, then its not good for sure. I think straight forward pvp without corruption actually is the best way to go. It's kind of a bandaid over an infected wound. Corruption leads to taunting, leads to griefing because you cannot directly pk without corruption. I will say it again, corruption facilitates taunting and griefing because it is a penalty for pvp in a pvp game.
@Flanker I do believe you make several very good points. This is a pvp game. Yes its pvx but it is pvp at its core. That being said, it should not be called griefing someone to taunt them into battle. I can see if its prolonged and obvious that the person is never going to pvp you, which is subjective in itself. But in a pvp game, you have the option to fight the person taunting you, or you can walk away. If he follows you around and keeps taunting you, takes it to the forums or discord, doxxes you, then its not good for sure. I think straight forward pvp without corruption actually is the best way to go. It's kind of a bandaid over an infected wound. Corruption leads to taunting, leads to griefing because you cannot directly pk without corruption. I will say it again, corruption facilitates taunting and griefing because it is a penalty for pvp in a pvp game.
Have you played a game with a similar PvP/PK system? If yes, could you share your experience?
1
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Flanker I do believe you make several very good points. This is a pvp game. Yes its pvx but it is pvp at its core. That being said, it should not be called griefing someone to taunt them into battle. I can see if its prolonged and obvious that the person is never going to pvp you, which is subjective in itself. But in a pvp game, you have the option to fight the person taunting you, or you can walk away. If he follows you around and keeps taunting you, takes it to the forums or discord, doxxes you, then its not good for sure. I think straight forward pvp without corruption actually is the best way to go. It's kind of a bandaid over an infected wound. Corruption leads to taunting, leads to griefing because you cannot directly pk without corruption. I will say it again, corruption facilitates taunting and griefing because it is a penalty for pvp in a pvp game.
Have you played a game with a similar PvP/PK system? If yes, could you share your experience?
I really have not been able to play as many games as lots of you guys have. Work has pretty much taken up my whole life, but now I find myself in a position where I have more time.
Yes I have played a few pvp/pk games, but they generally are dated. UO was the main game I played. It had all the elements of what is described in this thread however. In the beginning UO only had one facet, a pvp facet called Felucca. It was no holds barred, full loot. This game developed the term "Care Bear" because later on the facet split into 2 facets. One facet was no pvp (Trammel), the other facet was full loot pvp (Felucca). They where mirror images of each other except Felucca had more of a graveyard dead tree look. It also had Champ spawns, which where open world Bosses that had waves of spawn you had to fight in order to defeat. These bosses had Scrolls that dropped that made it that you could advance your char higher above the skill cap. The game had evolved after the Trammel was there and many non pvp players where in the game now, and they cried that they had to go do pvp to get the scrolls. Hence the "care bear" term came into effect.
I had to reference all of this because when you start watering down pvp to cater to pve players in a pvp world, it never goes the way of the pvp. It only goes the way of the -pve and pretty soon the pvp dries up, people start leaving and you have a dead game except for a few.
Anyways, when they split the facets, the Felucca facet dried up, and everyone lived in Trammel. they hunted in Trammel, they did all the crafting in Trammel. The "good vs evil" guilds dried up and went away. People only placed houses in the pve areas for the most part. The pvp people did place houses in Felucca however, but it was hard to find people to fight because everyone was in pve areas.
My point being is that you will never reconcile pvp with pve, they are just a different play style gamer. Not bad, just different. The best thing we could do would to discourage pve from playing Ashes because it really is not for them if they cannot handle pvp. And yes PK'ing is a form of PVP, its not griefing. I think an excellent point was that if you consider pk'ing griefing, then people camping out outside bosses would be griefing as well, as it is gatekeeping, but that's why you can fight them. You do not want the game to impose invisible barriers to give pve a foothold, it only goes downhill from there.
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
What a ridiculous statement, clearly shows your expertise on the matter. Makes as much sense as accusing a Rust player in griefing after he raided someone's base.[/b]
I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Wrong again for the 4283952th time. I never said game is DOA, it said that it might have a positive impact on game's longevity. Twisting my words and mental gymnastics is just a sign you got nothing better to say.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
0
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
What a ridiculous statement, clearly shows your expertise on the matter. Makes as much sense as accusing a Rust player in griefing after he raided someone's base.[/b]
I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Wrong again for the 4283952th time. I never said game is DOA, it said that it might have a positive impact on game's longevity. Twisting my words and mental gymnastics is just a sign you got nothing better to say.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
I guess I have not seen this from Flanker, maybe there is a language barrier but I understand his points. I do not think he was trying to belittle anyone.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
Chill man. There is no reason to be mad about a forum post. It's pretty obvious that a debate between me and you is pointless and leads to nowhere. So let's just both save our time.
My point being is that you will never reconcile pvp with pve, they are just a different play style gamer. Not bad, just different. The best thing we could do would to discourage pve from playing Ashes because it really is not for them if they cannot handle pvp. And yes PK'ing is a form of PVP, its not griefing. I think an excellent point was that if you consider pk'ing griefing, then people camping out outside bosses would be griefing as well, as it is gatekeeping, but that's why you can fight them. You do not want the game to impose invisible barriers to give pve a foothold, it only goes downhill from there.
Yup, I agree. My definition of griefing is not far from Steven's, he was talking about it on one of the livestreams. There are certain boxes that must be ticked to qualify an action as "griefing".
Not everyone understands that there is a major difference between actual griefing and fighting for contesting areas/spots/bosses, you name it. Basically, if actions of another player do not let you achieve your goal, it doesn't automatically qualifies as griefing.
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
What a ridiculous statement, clearly shows your expertise on the matter. Makes as much sense as accusing a Rust player in griefing after he raided someone's base.[/b]
I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Wrong again for the 4283952th time. I never said game is DOA, it said that it might have a positive impact on game's longevity. Twisting my words and mental gymnastics is just a sign you got nothing better to say.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
I guess I have not seen this from Flanker, maybe there is a language barrier but I understand his points. I do not think he was trying to belittle anyone.
All your wordy nonsense doesn't change that your base premise is bs. Even your wordy bloat looks like you pulled it out of thin air.
Sorry, I'll stop using words that contain more than 4 letters.
- Is your brain CPU capable of estimating how much time it takes for non-native English speaker to write all the comments in this thread and then compare this time spent with the potential benefit from getting 6 views?
@Ayeveegaming1 The overall tone is similarly derogatory toward people who don't agree with him, but those are the most blatant direct insults.
Even in his post in which he threw those insults around, he's claiming the design is catering to 30min/day players, or that people are focusing on that population, which no one is.
His one and only correct statement is that too-short leveling process can lead to a worse game experience if the time to level is insufficient to actually understanding their class and the game's other systems.
What he hasn't done is give any support for how a month and a half of giving Ashes a larger time commitment than a full time job wouldn't be sufficient for learning your class and the game's systems.
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
What a ridiculous statement, clearly shows your expertise on the matter. Makes as much sense as accusing a Rust player in griefing after he raided someone's base.[/b]
I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Wrong again for the 4283952th time. I never said game is DOA, it said that it might have a positive impact on game's longevity. Twisting my words and mental gymnastics is just a sign you got nothing better to say.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
I guess I have not seen this from Flanker, maybe there is a language barrier but I understand his points. I do not think he was trying to belittle anyone.
All your wordy nonsense doesn't change that your base premise is bs. Even your wordy bloat looks like you pulled it out of thin air.
Sorry, I'll stop using words that contain more than 4 letters.
- Is your brain CPU capable of estimating how much time it takes for non-native English speaker to write all the comments in this thread and then compare this time spent with the potential benefit from getting 6 views?
@Ayeveegaming1 The overall tone is similarly derogatory toward people who don't agree with him, but those are the most blatant direct insults.
Even in his post in which he threw those insults around, he's claiming the design is catering to 30min/day players, or that people are focusing on that population, which no one is.
His one and only correct statement is that too-short leveling process can lead to a worse game experience if the time to level is insufficient to actually understanding their class and the game's other systems.
What he hasn't done is give any support for how a month and a half of giving Ashes a larger time commitment than a full time job wouldn't be sufficient for learning your class and the game's systems.
I do not think anyone here is innocent of ribbing each other. I do think that sometimes people misread the context of what others are trying to convey. But needless to say, its never good to keep the negativity going. We should be able to just keep on topic instead of attacking each other. What you might find insulting might be just the normal lingo in the country he is from. Imagine if you where talking to Australians or English when they call people C**ts. Its just normal talk over there, but you would take offense here. Just roll with it and move on really.
0
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 13
[/quote]
Caeryl wrote: »
His one and only correct statement is that too-short leveling process can lead to a worse game experience if the time to level is insufficient to actually understanding their class and the game's other systems.
What he hasn't done is give any support for how a month and a half of giving Ashes a larger time commitment than a full time job wouldn't be sufficient for learning your class and the game's systems.[/quote]
Ya, I have to read closer on his idea here. I might disagree with it some. But I will put that in another post
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
What a ridiculous statement, clearly shows your expertise on the matter. Makes as much sense as accusing a Rust player in griefing after he raided someone's base.[/b]
I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Wrong again for the 4283952th time. I never said game is DOA, it said that it might have a positive impact on game's longevity. Twisting my words and mental gymnastics is just a sign you got nothing better to say.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
I guess I have not seen this from Flanker, maybe there is a language barrier but I understand his points. I do not think he was trying to belittle anyone.
All your wordy nonsense doesn't change that your base premise is bs. Even your wordy bloat looks like you pulled it out of thin air.
Sorry, I'll stop using words that contain more than 4 letters.
- Is your brain CPU capable of estimating how much time it takes for non-native English speaker to write all the comments in this thread and then compare this time spent with the potential benefit from getting 6 views?
@Ayeveegaming1 The overall tone is similarly derogatory toward people who don't agree with him, but those are the most blatant direct insults.
Even in his post in which he threw those insults around, he's claiming the design is catering to 30min/day players, or that people are focusing on that population, which no one is.
His one and only correct statement is that too-short leveling process can lead to a worse game experience if the time to level is insufficient to actually understanding their class and the game's other systems.
What he hasn't done is give any support for how a month and a half of giving Ashes a larger time commitment than a full time job wouldn't be sufficient for learning your class and the game's systems.
I do not think anyone here is innocent of ribbing each other. I do think that sometimes people misread the context of what others are trying to convey. But needless to say, its never good to keep the negativity going. We should be able to just keep on topic instead of attacking each other. What you might find insulting might be just the normal lingo in the country he is from. Imagine if you where talking to Australians or English when they call people C**ts. Its just normal talk over there, but you would take offense here. Just roll with it and move on really.
I'd like to see actual data of the claims he makes, but as you can see above, he's not interested.
Thankfully, I can say with certainty Intrepid isn't going to arbitrarily bloat their leveling timeline any further. There would be no point to it, as much as Flanker rants otherwise.
1
Ayeveegaming1Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
What a ridiculous statement, clearly shows your expertise on the matter. Makes as much sense as accusing a Rust player in griefing after he raided someone's base.[/b]
I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Wrong again for the 4283952th time. I never said game is DOA, it said that it might have a positive impact on game's longevity. Twisting my words and mental gymnastics is just a sign you got nothing better to say.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
I guess I have not seen this from Flanker, maybe there is a language barrier but I understand his points. I do not think he was trying to belittle anyone.
All your wordy nonsense doesn't change that your base premise is bs. Even your wordy bloat looks like you pulled it out of thin air.
Sorry, I'll stop using words that contain more than 4 letters.
- Is your brain CPU capable of estimating how much time it takes for non-native English speaker to write all the comments in this thread and then compare this time spent with the potential benefit from getting 6 views?
@Ayeveegaming1 The overall tone is similarly derogatory toward people who don't agree with him, but those are the most blatant direct insults.
Even in his post in which he threw those insults around, he's claiming the design is catering to 30min/day players, or that people are focusing on that population, which no one is.
His one and only correct statement is that too-short leveling process can lead to a worse game experience if the time to level is insufficient to actually understanding their class and the game's other systems.
What he hasn't done is give any support for how a month and a half of giving Ashes a larger time commitment than a full time job wouldn't be sufficient for learning your class and the game's systems.
I do not think anyone here is innocent of ribbing each other. I do think that sometimes people misread the context of what others are trying to convey. But needless to say, its never good to keep the negativity going. We should be able to just keep on topic instead of attacking each other. What you might find insulting might be just the normal lingo in the country he is from. Imagine if you where talking to Australians or English when they call people C**ts. Its just normal talk over there, but you would take offense here. Just roll with it and move on really.
I'd like to see actual data of the claims he makes, but as you can see above, he's not interested.
Thankfully, I can say with certainty Intrepid isn't going to arbitrarily bloat their leveling timeline any further. There would be no point to it, as much as Flanker rants otherwise.
Maybe he can go over it again in another video, to clarify. He really does quality videos, even if one does not agree with the topic.
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
What a ridiculous statement, clearly shows your expertise on the matter. Makes as much sense as accusing a Rust player in griefing after he raided someone's base.[/b]
I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Wrong again for the 4283952th time. I never said game is DOA, it said that it might have a positive impact on game's longevity. Twisting my words and mental gymnastics is just a sign you got nothing better to say.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
I guess I have not seen this from Flanker, maybe there is a language barrier but I understand his points. I do not think he was trying to belittle anyone.
All your wordy nonsense doesn't change that your base premise is bs. Even your wordy bloat looks like you pulled it out of thin air.
Sorry, I'll stop using words that contain more than 4 letters.
- Is your brain CPU capable of estimating how much time it takes for non-native English speaker to write all the comments in this thread and then compare this time spent with the potential benefit from getting 6 views?
@Ayeveegaming1 The overall tone is similarly derogatory toward people who don't agree with him, but those are the most blatant direct insults.
Even in his post in which he threw those insults around, he's claiming the design is catering to 30min/day players, or that people are focusing on that population, which no one is.
His one and only correct statement is that too-short leveling process can lead to a worse game experience if the time to level is insufficient to actually understanding their class and the game's other systems.
What he hasn't done is give any support for how a month and a half of giving Ashes a larger time commitment than a full time job wouldn't be sufficient for learning your class and the game's systems.
I do not think anyone here is innocent of ribbing each other. I do think that sometimes people misread the context of what others are trying to convey. But needless to say, its never good to keep the negativity going. We should be able to just keep on topic instead of attacking each other. What you might find insulting might be just the normal lingo in the country he is from. Imagine if you where talking to Australians or English when they call people C**ts. Its just normal talk over there, but you would take offense here. Just roll with it and move on really.
I'd like to see actual data of the claims he makes, but as you can see above, he's not interested.
Thankfully, I can say with certainty Intrepid isn't going to arbitrarily bloat their leveling timeline any further. There would be no point to it, as much as Flanker rants otherwise.
Maybe he can go over it again in another video, to clarify. He really does quality videos, even if one does not agree with the topic.
Call me old school, but video format taking the place of written discussion has been a massive downgrade in communication. I have zero interest in content creators.
I'd be glad to provide one of them. On Asterios L2 private servers (that exists for 15+ years already) where I played starting around 2009-2010, they launched servers with various rates. The time of the server launches are always the same: one in the end of August or beginning of September, another one around February/March.
x1 and x3 servers maintained a higher number of CCU and stayed more active for a significantly longer period of time compared to x7 (which was basically x14 with premium account). I emphasize once again, it's not cherry picking as I witnessed it multiple times throughout all these years. And I've seen the same thing on other servers.
1. Objectives in both cases are the same: attract as many players as possible, make them stay for as long as possible and earn as much as possible.
2. Audience is no different. It's the audience of the same server, same patch, same everything apart from rates.
3. You don't want to appeal to the official servers because you'd only prove my point. Classic x1 servers lived for years, despite them being so hardcore that players were only approaching the level cap after 2,5 years while playing ~8-12 hours per day. There was a detailed statistics for those servers back then and anyone could track it.
This is a good question and I probably should have emphasized it in the description. It doesn't play a huge role and I'll explain why, but the logic behind this assumption at least had a potential to end up being true.
The difference between those rates exists but it's not super significant from player's perspective.
Why? Because the amount of fun didn't strictly correlate with server rates.
How do I know that - I know that based on the game's forum, it's recruiting section and the fact that the same ~15 guilds who play almost on every launch. Basically, the majority of players were the same players who play on every new server. This is what allowed me to consider this comparison valid.
Unfortunately, throughout all those years I had no idea that I might need the detailed statistics of that in future. Wish I had it, because it would save all of us a lot of time and eliminate a couple of unnecessary discussions in this thread.
Nothing that happens on a private server is valid discussion in the context of a commercial MMORPG.
This is simply because the both the objectives and target audience of a private server are inherently different to the commercially operated game.
Ahhh yes, I was expecting something like that haha. You can't really argue with that, and the best thing possible for you is to find a way to deflect it by claiming it's an invalid argument.
Which, apparently, won't work because it doesn't make any sense.
1. Objectives in both cases are the same: attract as many players as possible, make them stay for as long as possible and earn as much as possible.
2. Audience is no different. It's the audience of the same server, same patch, same everything apart from rates.
3. You don't want to appeal to the official servers because you'd only prove my point. Classic x1 servers lived for years, despite them being so hardcore that players were only approaching the level cap after 2,5 years while playing ~8-12 hours per day. There was a detailed statistics for those servers back then and anyone could track it.
P.S. You really need to stop talking about Lineage, if you know nothing about it. A friendly advice.
The market for a commercial MMORPG is all MMORPG players, and all players of other games with similar mechanics or connected lore.
The target market of a private server are people that played the commercial game and were not happy with some aspect of the direction it went.
Thus, the markets for these two games are VASTLY different.
The market for a private L2 server for the last 10 years has been all but limited to people wanting to relive the past.
I did not write that, because I do not believe it to be true.
Oh yes, you did exactly that. I literally copy-pasted a line from your comment. Are you going to deny another fact? Or run back to edit your original message?
It is worth noting that you didn't quote the thing you claim I said.
It is also worth pointing out two forum features.
The first are the arrows next to a posters name when you quote them. These arrows navigate a reader to the quoted post, so they can read it for themselves.
The second thing to note is that the forums have a timestamp for when a post was last edited. As such, if someone edits a post after it has been quoted, it will be obvious that it was edited after the fact. This means you can't really go back and change what you posted if you were quoted.
This is why the quote function is important to use - and yes, you can quote multiple other posts in one single post of your own.
So, feel free to quote where you think I said what you claimed I said. You won't find it, because it was @Kilion that said it, not me.
Indeed it doesn't really exist.
And this is not a problem.
Oh, it's not a problem? Great. How new-player-friendly is WoW now? I'm sure it feels amazing for a new player to get a character on day 3 with 30 buttons on his panel.
WoW is at the point in its life where it doesn't anticipate new players to come in without having an existing in game friend network.
I have no idea at all why you seem to think that all levels need to be equally represented in content, economy and players. This is a horrible state for an MMORPG to be in.
How come it is a horrible state? You described a game with properly functioning in-game systems and economy. If that's somehow not good, you end up having WoW or New World.
As I said earlier, it is a horrible state because there is no meaningful interaction between players with vastly different levels. You don't group with then, you don't have meaningful fights with them, you don't share aspects of the economy with them.
Thus, if a game only has 200 people around your level range, it only has 200 people you can meaningfully interact with, regardless of how many people are actually on the server.
This means that the closer everyone is in level (and in general character and economic power), the more people everyone has to meaningfully interact with.
It is worth noting that you didn't quote the thing you claim I said.
I have to admit that I copy-pasted the wrong message that was not written by you. My bad, got confused as I had to reply to like 5 different people.
Can't say the same about the rest of your message. I could break down and explain every single point, but I don't it would matter, so I'd prefer to wrap up our personal debate on this topic, as it clearly goes to nowhere.
I'd be glad to provide one of them. On Asterios L2 private servers (that exists for 15+ years already) where I played starting around 2009-2010, they launched servers with various rates. The time of the server launches are always the same: one in the end of August or beginning of September, another one around February/March.
x1 and x3 servers maintained a higher number of CCU and stayed more active for a significantly longer period of time compared to x7 (which was basically x14 with premium account). I emphasize once again, it's not cherry picking as I witnessed it multiple times throughout all these years. And I've seen the same thing on other servers.
1. Objectives in both cases are the same: attract as many players as possible, make them stay for as long as possible and earn as much as possible.
2. Audience is no different. It's the audience of the same server, same patch, same everything apart from rates.
3. You don't want to appeal to the official servers because you'd only prove my point. Classic x1 servers lived for years, despite them being so hardcore that players were only approaching the level cap after 2,5 years while playing ~8-12 hours per day. There was a detailed statistics for those servers back then and anyone could track it.
This is a good question and I probably should have emphasized it in the description. It doesn't play a huge role and I'll explain why, but the logic behind this assumption at least had a potential to end up being true.
The difference between those rates exists but it's not super significant from player's perspective.
Why? Because the amount of fun didn't strictly correlate with server rates.
How do I know that - I know that based on the game's forum, it's recruiting section and the fact that the same ~15 guilds who play almost on every launch. Basically, the majority of players were the same players who play on every new server. This is what allowed me to consider this comparison valid.
Unfortunately, throughout all those years I had no idea that I might need the detailed statistics of that in future. Wish I had it, because it would save all of us a lot of time and eliminate a couple of unnecessary discussions in this thread.
Any private servers are irrelevant to the discussion.
If Classic was the publicly launched MMO server people played on, then by all means give us a general population estimate and we can use that information.
Any private servers are irrelevant to the discussion.
Well, first of all, they are absolutely not when it comes to Lineage 2 specifically. Maybe they are when it comes to other games, I don't know much about those. Secondly, there were only x1 rates on the official servers, so no comparison could be made there.
If Classic was the publicly launched MMO server people played on, then by all means give us a general population estimate and we can use that information.
Classic servers were OFFICIAL servers that were publicly launched. Once again, appealing to the official servers only proves my point
Any private servers are irrelevant to the discussion.
Well, first of all, they are absolutely not when it comes to Lineage 2 specifically. Maybe they are when it comes to other games, I don't know much about those. Secondly, there were only x1 rates on the official servers, so no comparison could be made there.
No, they're entirely irrelevant as they're not open to the entire MMO player base. They literally cannot be reflective of overall community trends because it already starts as a niche demographic.
If Classic was the publicly launched MMO server people played on, then by all means give us a general population estimate and we can use that information.
Classic servers were OFFICIAL servers that were publicly launched. Once again, appealing to the official servers only proves my point
Alright, we're getting somewhere with this one then. That official publicly launched servers had what level cap and how much time did it take to reach it for the average player? What was the population size in a general estimate?
No, they're entirely irrelevant as they're not open to the entire MMO player base. They literally cannot be reflective of overall community trends because it already starts as a niche demographic.
They are very relevant, taking into account that the majority of players actually plays on private servers. Here is the thing: official servers had a CCU cap of 5000-6000 players and they only reach those numbers on launch and shortly after. The world record of CCU on a server belongs to the server of the community I mentioned. I believe it was beaten afterwards again, but at least I found this info in a telegram channel of one of L2 streamers:
Screenshot displaying a peak at 17,461 CCU on a single server:
Source:
Text: "Мировой Рекорд, за все существования л2 и фри и офф серверов"
Translation: "All times world record for Lineage 2 across all private and official servers"
Also found this.
General online across all official servers combined over time, 2010-2022:
Official server longevity example, throughout 2010-2017. Then, apparently it got merged.
Hope it somewhat helps to understand what I'm talking about.
Alright, we're getting somewhere with this one then. That official publicly launched servers had what level cap and how much time did it take to reach it for the average player? What was the population size in a general estimate?
It depends on the patch, because max level changed. IIRC level 80 was a cap on classic when I looked it up. There was a website with statisctics that I don't remember and not sure whether it still exists, but it provided the data about each player, and ofc you could sort it by top players. If I recall correctly, it was 2-2,5 years post-launch and there were several characters of level 79. I remember dividing their overall playtime and it showed that one of those lvl 79 basically played for about ~11-12 hours a day and another one played it for ~9 hours/day. Hope that helps to understand how hardcore they were.
When you are figuring all of this, don't forget folks who can't do 6 hours a day. That will actually be most MMO players. This is an older demographic for the most part, they have jobs, families and plenty of things taking up their time. So for a majority of players, 1 1/2 months will turn into 2 1/2 to 3 months.
Also remember that a lot of MMO players want alts. I personally want to try each of the classes at some point. However, if it's taking 5 to 6 months to level a single character there is simply no way. That issue compounds as the game adds expansion.
On the topic of expansions: Having a longer, but not crazy leveling time to start, leaves them room to expand the level cap without having to dramatically redesign the leveling curve to make it faster. It also won't encourage people to purchase level skips.
Comments
Will there be a power difference between level 47 and level 39? Absolutely. How serious would that be? Average to a degree, according to Steven who also said that "50% of your power is your level, 50% of your power is your gear" I would assume that 25 level difference will be significant, but it wouldn't mean that level 25 is gonna deal 0 damage to level 50. Correct. Something tells me that back in 200something it wasn't their original design. Totally agree again. 10/10 comment
Don't make special rule set servers. It has been suggested by folks in the past to make servers with different parameters, especially by the pvp vs no pvp crowd. However, dividing up the community before it even exists is a massive mistake.
How many special rule sets should we have? PVP servers, No pvp servers, RP servers, Regular servers, Seasonal servers, fresh start servers, fast lvl speed servers, medium lvl speed servers, slow level speed servers, hard core servers, no exp debt servers etc.
Let's have one rule set for everyone and go from there. As the years go on, maybe other server types can come up, but even then it's a mistake to divide your player base unless things are not working. Which by the way is usually when companies try new server ideas in an attempt to stop the bleeding.
You can throw insults all you like; you're just showing your own issues. I'm not the one who's making baseless assumptions and building a whole DoA thread based on those incorrect assumptions.
Name a single active game where the design was for more than 225 hours of dedicated exp-focused game time. Not private servers–those are useless to the discussion of an active, healthy MMO–but active ones. This amount of time needed to hit the maximum adventuring level is significantly over any of those that exist, there will be things for people to do while they level and learn their characters, but the best thing for an open world PvX game is for more people to be on level parity than less.
You get more competitive fights and less steamrolling.
We already know you're prone to ganking and griefing in your time in L2, so sure for your preferred play style you'd have more fun when people are kept at low level for longer, but for everyone else, a couple months of dedicated playtime is plenty to understand their class enough that drawing out the leveling process provides no benefit to them.
That has nothing to do with this topic as far as I can tell.
Why do you mention that?
20-10 years ago, MMORPGs, like EQ2 and WoW included Hell Levels to arbitrarily prolong Leveling.
When I hit a Hell Level in EQ2, I would switch to play WoW until I hit a Hell Level in WoW.
Then I would check to see if they had nerfed the Hell Levels in EQ2 and, if so, I would play EQ2 until I hit another Hell Level there.
Then I would check to see if WoW had nerfed their Hell Levels and, if so, I would play WoW.
I stopped playing WoW in 2011, after completing Cataclysm. Burnt out by the treadmill of playing until Quests run out at max Level Adventurer and then needing to wait 18+ months for new content.
I was completely burnt out from Endgame after playing Neverwinter Online in 2013. Playing NWO is when I first heard "Endgame is the real game" and saw people racing to max Level Adventurer within one month.
I thought I was done with MMORPGs for good after reaching max Level Adventurer with a couple of NWO characters, but then EQNext was announced that weekend.
EQNext's Storybricks seemed like a great solution for putting an end to the Endgame treadmill.
Ashes' Nodes system is basically a watered-down version of Storybricks - which is why I funded the Ashes Kickstarter.
I began playing WoW again with Shadowlands. Leveling felt much better the pace is quite comfortable and there are no Hell Levels. And they added some more stuff to do after reaching max Level Adventurer.
WoW: Dragonflight was tons of fun. Leveling feels awesome and there is plenty of fun stuff to do after reaching max Level Adventurer. Haven't played WoW this year only because there are too many other games I'm having fun playing. Hoping to jump back into WoW this weekend with The War Within. Although, I also want to check out Nightingale: Realms Rebuilt.
Not replying to all other stuff you wrote, because it's pointless. I'd rather talk to people who make fair counterpoints. That fair. It was just a suggestion. If people are not OK with that, alright, so be it. Mate, I really hope so. I truly want to see that I am wrong on this and don't want to end up in "Told you" situation.
I really have not been able to play as many games as lots of you guys have. Work has pretty much taken up my whole life, but now I find myself in a position where I have more time.
Yes I have played a few pvp/pk games, but they generally are dated. UO was the main game I played. It had all the elements of what is described in this thread however. In the beginning UO only had one facet, a pvp facet called Felucca. It was no holds barred, full loot. This game developed the term "Care Bear" because later on the facet split into 2 facets. One facet was no pvp (Trammel), the other facet was full loot pvp (Felucca). They where mirror images of each other except Felucca had more of a graveyard dead tree look. It also had Champ spawns, which where open world Bosses that had waves of spawn you had to fight in order to defeat. These bosses had Scrolls that dropped that made it that you could advance your char higher above the skill cap. The game had evolved after the Trammel was there and many non pvp players where in the game now, and they cried that they had to go do pvp to get the scrolls. Hence the "care bear" term came into effect.
I had to reference all of this because when you start watering down pvp to cater to pve players in a pvp world, it never goes the way of the pvp. It only goes the way of the -pve and pretty soon the pvp dries up, people start leaving and you have a dead game except for a few.
Anyways, when they split the facets, the Felucca facet dried up, and everyone lived in Trammel. they hunted in Trammel, they did all the crafting in Trammel. The "good vs evil" guilds dried up and went away. People only placed houses in the pve areas for the most part. The pvp people did place houses in Felucca however, but it was hard to find people to fight because everyone was in pve areas.
My point being is that you will never reconcile pvp with pve, they are just a different play style gamer. Not bad, just different. The best thing we could do would to discourage pve from playing Ashes because it really is not for them if they cannot handle pvp. And yes PK'ing is a form of PVP, its not griefing. I think an excellent point was that if you consider pk'ing griefing, then people camping out outside bosses would be griefing as well, as it is gatekeeping, but that's why you can fight them. You do not want the game to impose invisible barriers to give pve a foothold, it only goes downhill from there.
It's honestly pitiful that you either think the boldface lying is at all convincing, or you genuinely don't understand what's wrong with your behavior.
What do you think happens if someone doesn't 'dodge the bullet', given that colloquialism means they'd narrowly escape disaster. There's nothing disastrous about leveling taking a dedicated daily player a couple months.
Most will take a bit longer. A small handful will try to bum rush the entire process like a cat after a laser pointer.
Ashes's leveling process (for just adventuring class) is already planning to take longer than any other active MMO on the market. You haven't even name a single one that takes longer at its default.
You've just insulted people's intelligence and yapped on as if your unproven premise is fact while providing no evidence of it being insufficient.
I guess I have not seen this from Flanker, maybe there is a language barrier but I understand his points. I do not think he was trying to belittle anyone.
Not everyone understands that there is a major difference between actual griefing and fighting for contesting areas/spots/bosses, you name it. Basically, if actions of another player do not let you achieve your goal, it doesn't automatically qualifies as griefing.
@Ayeveegaming1 The overall tone is similarly derogatory toward people who don't agree with him, but those are the most blatant direct insults.
Even in his post in which he threw those insults around, he's claiming the design is catering to 30min/day players, or that people are focusing on that population, which no one is.
His one and only correct statement is that too-short leveling process can lead to a worse game experience if the time to level is insufficient to actually understanding their class and the game's other systems.
What he hasn't done is give any support for how a month and a half of giving Ashes a larger time commitment than a full time job wouldn't be sufficient for learning your class and the game's systems.
I do not think anyone here is innocent of ribbing each other. I do think that sometimes people misread the context of what others are trying to convey. But needless to say, its never good to keep the negativity going. We should be able to just keep on topic instead of attacking each other. What you might find insulting might be just the normal lingo in the country he is from. Imagine if you where talking to Australians or English when they call people C**ts. Its just normal talk over there, but you would take offense here. Just roll with it and move on really.
Caeryl wrote: »
His one and only correct statement is that too-short leveling process can lead to a worse game experience if the time to level is insufficient to actually understanding their class and the game's other systems.
What he hasn't done is give any support for how a month and a half of giving Ashes a larger time commitment than a full time job wouldn't be sufficient for learning your class and the game's systems.[/quote]
Ya, I have to read closer on his idea here. I might disagree with it some. But I will put that in another post
I'd like to see actual data of the claims he makes, but as you can see above, he's not interested.
Thankfully, I can say with certainty Intrepid isn't going to arbitrarily bloat their leveling timeline any further. There would be no point to it, as much as Flanker rants otherwise.
Maybe he can go over it again in another video, to clarify. He really does quality videos, even if one does not agree with the topic.
Call me old school, but video format taking the place of written discussion has been a massive downgrade in communication. I have zero interest in content creators.
The target market of a private server are people that played the commercial game and were not happy with some aspect of the direction it went.
Thus, the markets for these two games are VASTLY different.
The market for a private L2 server for the last 10 years has been all but limited to people wanting to relive the past. It is worth noting that you didn't quote the thing you claim I said.
It is also worth pointing out two forum features.
The first are the arrows next to a posters name when you quote them. These arrows navigate a reader to the quoted post, so they can read it for themselves.
The second thing to note is that the forums have a timestamp for when a post was last edited. As such, if someone edits a post after it has been quoted, it will be obvious that it was edited after the fact. This means you can't really go back and change what you posted if you were quoted.
This is why the quote function is important to use - and yes, you can quote multiple other posts in one single post of your own.
So, feel free to quote where you think I said what you claimed I said. You won't find it, because it was @Kilion that said it, not me. WoW is at the point in its life where it doesn't anticipate new players to come in without having an existing in game friend network.
So yeah, this isn't a problem.
As I said earlier, it is a horrible state because there is no meaningful interaction between players with vastly different levels. You don't group with then, you don't have meaningful fights with them, you don't share aspects of the economy with them.
Thus, if a game only has 200 people around your level range, it only has 200 people you can meaningfully interact with, regardless of how many people are actually on the server.
This means that the closer everyone is in level (and in general character and economic power), the more people everyone has to meaningfully interact with.
Can't say the same about the rest of your message. I could break down and explain every single point, but I don't it would matter, so I'd prefer to wrap up our personal debate on this topic, as it clearly goes to nowhere.
Any private servers are irrelevant to the discussion.
If Classic was the publicly launched MMO server people played on, then by all means give us a general population estimate and we can use that information.
No, they're entirely irrelevant as they're not open to the entire MMO player base. They literally cannot be reflective of overall community trends because it already starts as a niche demographic.
Alright, we're getting somewhere with this one then. That official publicly launched servers had what level cap and how much time did it take to reach it for the average player? What was the population size in a general estimate?
Screenshot displaying a peak at 17,461 CCU on a single server:
Source:
Text: "Мировой Рекорд, за все существования л2 и фри и офф серверов"
Translation: "All times world record for Lineage 2 across all private and official servers"
Also found this.
General online across all official servers combined over time, 2010-2022:
Official server longevity example, throughout 2010-2017. Then, apparently it got merged.
Hope it somewhat helps to understand what I'm talking about.
It depends on the patch, because max level changed. IIRC level 80 was a cap on classic when I looked it up. There was a website with statisctics that I don't remember and not sure whether it still exists, but it provided the data about each player, and ofc you could sort it by top players. If I recall correctly, it was 2-2,5 years post-launch and there were several characters of level 79. I remember dividing their overall playtime and it showed that one of those lvl 79 basically played for about ~11-12 hours a day and another one played it for ~9 hours/day. Hope that helps to understand how hardcore they were.
Edits: typos
Also remember that a lot of MMO players want alts. I personally want to try each of the classes at some point. However, if it's taking 5 to 6 months to level a single character there is simply no way. That issue compounds as the game adds expansion.
On the topic of expansions: Having a longer, but not crazy leveling time to start, leaves them room to expand the level cap without having to dramatically redesign the leveling curve to make it faster. It also won't encourage people to purchase level skips.