How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
I like the strategic use and wariness around CC in MMOs, but there needs to be well-thought-out diversity in the specific effect of, use case for, and approach to execution of every archetype's CC. Every archetype should have some form of CC, but they should look and feel very different from each other to use and be hit by.
Here are some concepts to illustrate the point:
Fighter: [Hamstring] An instant-cast, precisely targeted attack that hamstrings the opponent, reducing movement speed by 50% for 5 seconds and preventing the use of speed-boosting/long-jump mechanics. The ability can be CC-broken. The ability can be spec'd into to apply a ticking hemorrhage-bleed on the target that lasts for 10 seconds, and persists even if the speed reduction is broken through CC-break. This is good for fighters because they tend not to be particularly mobile and need to either keep opponents in range, or make escapes.
Tank: [Wall of Spears] An instant cast horizontal line of magic spears burst from the earth at a 45 degree angle in the direction you're facing with a three meter wingspan, dealing piercing damage, knocking back enemies within 1 meter of the wall at the time of execution a distance of 1 meter, and slowing them for 3 seconds. The slow can be CC-broken. The wall is impassible for 10 seconds. The ability can be spec'd into to have it deliver piercing damage and a 3-second slow to any additional enemies who make contact with the pointy side until it expires. This is good for tanks because their mission is to protect others around them. A brief knockback and slow applied to those closest to the tank at the time of execution will prevent them from maneuvering around the wall so quickly that it renders the ability a low-value investment.
Rogue: [Sucker Punch] An instant cast KO style stun that last for 10 seconds, preventing all ability usage including CC-break until damaged or healed. The user must be in stealth in order to activate this ability. The ability can be spec'd into to apply a dazed effect to the target for 3 seconds whenever the initial stun fades (either naturally or through interruption), reducing movement speed, attack speed, and casting time. This is good for rogues, because they tend to pick out loners, or people who would otherwise be a strategic asset to a larger team. They're not armored very well, so they depend on patience to find the perfect moment to strike and get a head-start on their opponent.
Ranger: [Nature's Wrath] A 1 second cast root-style stun that calls on the powers of nature to ensnare the target and hold them from movement for 10 seconds. There is a 15% chance that any damage caused will break the root. The effect can be CC-broken. The ability can be spec'd into to make the forces of nature track the target for five seconds after the root is broken, either naturally or through CC-break, grasping out with slowly fading tendrils that apply a 5 second slow applied in a waning gradient. This works well for rangers, because they like to kite their enemies and keep them at a distance. The VFX could be altered to fit the environment the opponent is standing on - healthy roots for forests/tundra/freshwaster, vines for tropics, gnarled/thorny dry roots in the desert, or seaweed in the ocean.
Mage: [Displacement] A 1.5 second cast ability which temporarily disrupts the enemy's tie to the material plane, causing them to teleport anywhere from 2-5 meters in a random direction (including upward Z coordinates) once upon casting, and again every 2.5 seconds for 10 seconds. The ability can be spec'd into to cause the enemy to become disoriented, reversing the effects of all movement input for the spell's duration and for 5 seconds after the base effect of the spell fades. This ability and its spec-effects cannot be CC-broken. This is good for mages because they often require escapes, and the unpredictable nature of it plays into their character fantasy of being somewhat experimental manipulators of (see: meddlers in) the arcane - occasionally to their own detriment.
Summoner: [Summon: Long-Pawed Langur] A 1.5 second cast which summons a fantasized version of a langur monkey on the enemy's shoulders, who takes no joy in this unexpected piggyback ride, wrapping its paws around the eyes of its unwilling mount and blinding them for 20 seconds, or until enough damage has been dealt to it (either via 50% damage dealt to the target being delivered to the langur indirectly [including damage dealt by the summoner or their allies] or direct damage dealt to the langur by a player friendly to the target) to dissipate its essence. While blinded, full-screen VFX will blot out the target's vision (you could get pretty creative with this, creating some long-fingered monkey-paw-like shapes with black fill and an edge gradient that cycle through a 5 or 10 second long animation loop which offers slight, rapidly-shifting glimpses of their screen). While blinded, the target is able to target any attackable player or NPC (enemy or ally), activate abilities, and is slowed by 25%. This gives the target the option to continue their offensive pursuit, but puts their allies at risk of friendly fire via direct attacks or AoE until the Langur is dispatched or the spell ends. This ability can be spec'd into to summon an enraged langur, who deals ticking damage to the target until it's dispatched or the spell ends. This would work well for summoners, because (to me) they offer a somewhat whimsical class fantasy based on the abilities of their summons, not on arcane magics or physical prowess. Because they're a somewhat role-flexible class, this gives summoners the opportunity to escape, to kite, or, in battlefield situations, to force the enemy to either sit out their combat until the langur is dispatched, or risk hurting their allies.
Cleric: [Invert Essence] An instant cast spell which functions similarly to an interrupt, but rather than stopping an opponent's spell-casting, it allows the target's next spell or melee attack to be carried out, and upon confirmation of damage dealt, converts it to healing instead. If, upon casting, the target is not currently casting any spells, it simply makes the next attack carried out by the target deal healing instead of damage for the next thirty seconds. If, upon casting, the target is currently casting or channeling a spell, then the opponent has a chance to notice the cleric's spellcast, cancel their own spellcast, and use up the Invert Essence on something less damaging. This ability could be spec'd into such that if, upon casting, the target is currently casting or channeling a spell, then that specific spell is marked by Invert Essence, giving it a golden aura on the target's hotbar for thirty seconds. Until the aura fades, that ability now does healing to enemies, and is not castable on allies. This ensures that if a cleric is trying to limit the enemy's use of a specific spell, which they may have been saving their Invert Essence to manipulate, that the enemy is still blocked from dealing damage with it, even if they cancel the spellcast after the cleric uses their Invert Essence. The enemy must chose to either wait out the thirty seconds, or use it ASAP to activate its CD. This works well for clerics, because they operate primarily as healers or support. They are rarely, themselves, the targets of damage, particularly in PvE scenarios, and tend to be shielded from enemy fire in PvP scenarios. Their use of CC should focus on reducing the damage of the enemy while slipping in some healing for their allies, particularly those being targeted by powerful abilities.
Bard: The Bard showcase livestream is still fresh enough in my mind for me to say I feel happy with the CC abilities they currently have, for now anyway. I think it makes sense for them to have multiple forms of CC to suit various situations, none of which are particularly costly for their enemies, but when strung together, collectively weaken opposing groups of NPCs or players. This suits the support role that they primarily serve pretty well and keeps them from being too powerful as soloists. If a bard does double-spec into their archetype, however, I think they should have at least one CC that's a little more powerful than the others. Perhaps this could be done through the Saga system somehow.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I don't like the idea of every class having a CC break. If you're a class that already suffers from mobility issues, like a Fighter, Cleric, or a Tank, than you should have one. Otherwise, if you really need it that badly, you should look into a trinket / piece of jewelry / limited use item that helps you in dire situations. Some CC ability effects, like the ones I illustrated above, should be able to be mitigated through good communication and teamwork.
If everyone has CC, it makes the game balanced through a subjective equality of opportunity. If everyone has CC-breaking, it makes the game boring through a subjective equality of outcome. This is similar to what you'd get if every class had a boring, generic cousin of a small handful of CC abilities. VFX for class-flavor won't get you very far for engaging gameplay. The mechanics and decision making that various abilities provide to the players of each unique class need to be diverse and engaging as well.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Players should absolutely get to choose whether to spec further into their CC or CC-breaks (if their class offers one) at the cost of damage, or vice versa.
For CC-breaks, I think there should be three tiers:
Tier 1: Low-mobility classes like the Fighter, Cleric, and Tank get a CC-break as part of their kit. They can spec into making it more useful/powerful/available at the cost of damage.
Tier 2: Medium-mobility classes like the Mage and Summoner should have the option to spec into a basic-level CC-break at the cost of damage.
Tier 3: High-mobility classes like the Ranger, Rogue, and Bard should not have any CC-breaks inherent in their kit, or available in their class-trees. They can, however, choose to have necklaces, rings, or trinkets enchanted to offer high-CD (maybe 10 minutes?) CC-break at the cost of enchantments they could've otherwise chosen. These enchantments should be collectively marked as unique, and only one piece of gear enhanced with one of them should be equippable at a time.
CC (Crowd Control) is an important factor in PVE and PVP. In PVE it can showcase strategic decision-making to bind mobs or bosses in critical moments. In PVP, it can highlight a player's skill to be able to root, stun, or otherwise incapacitate another's movement to set up skills, down a potion, or BM (aka bad manners) another player for content.
While other games would use breaks as another skill some games use items for CC breaks, either consumables or active abilities on a wearable. I typically prefer cc breaks on consumables, because this makes the player prepare for these situations and helps crafters produce something useful. This also frees up a skill slot for more optional skills rather than making each class need a specific ability, by just the consumable.
Overall CC should be included as a starter ability to get players used to using the ability. CC break effects should us used as a consumable for self and targeted players.
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
I think CC and CC breaks are important and a needed element in MMO's currently. Like most things they should work a bit differently in PvP vs PvE. Lets look at PvE first. PvE CC
I have always enjoyed more difficult combat encounters, where CC becomes a very important tool to be used to keep the group alive though a fight. If enemies take an entire group to kill then having three such enemies loose and attacking the group could mean a group wipe, thus the need for some sort of CC. Vs monsters a longer CC makes more sense especially if the individual mob is very difficult to kill. Original EQ is a good example of this where if you even pulled 2 mobs without any CC could mean the end of your group. If mobs are going to be very difficult like this then you will need strong CC to handle extra creatures.
Another reason to have CC is to stop some people from developing bad play habits for harder encounters. Again this depends on how hard the mobs will be to kill. Generally you don't want your cleric in a melee or your caster fighting three creatures at once, when the tank is trying to keep the mob or mobs on him or herself. Having CC means people have to focus their targeting and not be stupid and hit the wrong target.
PvP
Again CC and CC breaks are important in PvP. on the Plus side of strong longer lasting CC in PvP is the chance for a small organized group to eliminate or take on a much larger less organized group. The game I look at for PvP the most was Dark Age of Camelot. They had long CC abilities that vs a lower ability player would totally dominate them. Vs higher level ability players it was not as relevant. In group vs group of equal numbers and abilities the Power of Aoe CC was not as important but still played an important roll. Whatever group managed to get off a Aoe CC on the other group first had an advantage. This did not always mean you won but it did help.
Imo the most important thing about CC in PvP is it is one of two tools that a small group has giving them a chance vs a much larger group. The other being movement speed.
On the negative side of CC it can make people feel powerless and unable to play as their group is killed around them. This can be mitigated by CC Breaks and CC resistances but it is something that comes with CC in general.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Every Archetype should have a self use CC Break, it should be on a medium timer with some resistance given to CC for a duration after use so the person can not be chain stunned and killed etc.
Each Archetype should have access to a single target form of CC. Like others have mentioned each type should be relevant to the Class. These single target CC's should not be very long in duration but useful in different situations. A few Classes should have more powerful CC's and Aoe CC's in their tool box. This would give these classes another reason to be desired for certain encounters. There should also be some classes that have more Powerful CC Breaks like group purges or purging other players.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Anytime there is a CC or a CC break I would take that ability before Damage abilities unless CC in the game is so weak it is pointless or if I am part of a organized group where my CC is over redundant and I need the points to fulfill a more important job
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
•Idk need to play with a different system to get a feel. But as I always say in these forums I think the mmo I spent the most amount of time in got it so that it feels fair (Warhammer online). Example: if you stunned, silenced or knockdowned for 2 sec they got a 20 sec immune to that type of CC (Stuns).
If you rooted someone for 3 sec then they got a 30 sec immune for that type of cc (roots).
Melee dps had better cc breaks than range dps as compensation but alot if not all had some sort of cc break.
I was happy how it worked and I guess I want similar type in Ashes but maybe there is a better way to do it idk.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
•No problem with all classes have some form of cc break. But would probably be best to balance it out so that everyone can't do everything at the same time. Damage, CC, mobility, survivability etc you should only be able to pick a few, not all.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
• Make both paths viable in different scenarios. PVE boss or glass cannon pvp group maybe a full damage path is better and in other scenarios CC and CC breaks might be better. So in other words maybe do not make CC so strong that it's mandatory for all scenarios.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ASHES OF CREATION, do not allow this game to have the same cc model that WoW does. All the micro CC in that game is horrendous and tedious to play around. I played a ton of WoW and a ton of SWTOR and one thing that SWTOR had over WoW was the CC control. Everyone had CC, BUT there was something called a resolve bar. This little bar made you CC immune for a short period of time and once that resolve bar is depleted, then you can be CCd again. THIS is the way that it should be. All the fears, stuns, incaps, sleeps, roots, slows that WoW has was just rediculous and the fact that you could be CCd almost the entire game was ridiculous and just not fun. PVE having these without a resolve bar is fine but for PVP (which I will probably be focusing on the most) MUST HAVE something similar to a resolve bar. Otherwise people who want a substitute to WoW because of their CC crap will def stop playing shortly after launch...please Intrepid Devs...please make sure your playerbase dont sit in CC for entire player vs player matches.
EDIT: Also the diminishing returns on all these different micro CCs in WoW was also absolute garbage. The fact that you had to have a DR Tracking mod to know which CCs share DR with other CCs is just dumb. Pool ALL CC into a CC category without subcategories, and just have them fill up the bar so that players can actually play the game.
Don’t like active hard CC skills or spells, hard CCs should be a proc effect while wielding certain weapon type. For example when wielding hammer all attacks/skills that use hammer to deal damage gain hard CC proc effect like X% chance(depends on weapon attack or skill modifier something like motion value in Monster Hunter) to stun target for Y sec.
Active CC skills or spells should be focus on soft CC like mage’s sleep spell or ranger’s weight ammo or immobilized or pulled or knock back(pulled and knock back are almost hard CCs to me).
Active CC breaks should fit archetype role, support role is the one should have abilities to break CC effects on teammates, tank is the one should have abilities to break CC effect on it own but doesn’t effect to teammates, fighter should be endure CC effects and each CC or stack makes fighter’s damage higher etc.
Gears should give character CC resistance to decrease the effect or duration on certain CC type depends on armor type and also passive CC breaks that have a chance to break soft and hard CCs by heartbeat.
As an evequest veteran, I am used to CC being an extremely high Skill based type of play. IN EQ you could stun Hundreds of monsters for 2-3 seconds at a time and perminately if you rotated all your cooldowns properly and none of them missed a spell check. or you could keep one of them stunned while your team beat them down. this even worked on some bosses, Enchanters were slow / haste spell users so they were responsible for crowd control, and time spells. i'd love to see this type of gameplay come back. Crowd control is an art and most people frankly couldnt do it. as it required game sense and mechanical skill to be able to execute it well, As well as the geography of the land, how to group monsters up etc. IF were only talking single target CC there are a lot of various ways it can be done, but that would also mean the monster has to be a threat. monsters should FEEL dangerous not just an pc who does high damage and walks up to you. otherwise CC doesnt FEEL good. CC is like a nuke for time wizards. if a monster would LEAP at you and tear you to pieces, then stunning it feels amazing because you stopped someone from dying. or even better, mind controlled it and turned it loose against other monsters. it just depends on the design direction of whoever is in charge of that class. Everything has a risk /reward to it. so I'd prefer a class that did not even deal damage, but was a master of crowd control. i could mind control monsters, let them do the work for me, while i stunned over and over so my pet could get the kills in. Alternative ways of playing the game is exactly why im looking into ashes.
CCs should matter, but it’s very annoying (and hard to balance). Especially, when having different types of ccs, and without everyone getting some sort of universal immunity skill or have some immunities baked into certain skills.
So the way I see it, it’s likely going to be 1 of 3 options.
1. Every class having some kind of limited-time universal immunity skill that you have to activate prior to getting ccd, with a decent sized cd (easiest to balance).
2. While performing certain skills you’re immune to all cc after skill has been cast, not during casting (maybe some mage spec options can help though?), after casting and during animation (2nd easiest to balance).
3. You build up a cc meter that makes cc less effective over time, or a meter that once filled, give you cc immunity for a short time (hardest to balance). Not only is this meter going to be nearly impossible to get right, for example, which impacts the meter more, a stun or a sleep, or etc…, How long does the cc immunity afterwards last? If it’s not long enough it’s useless, if it’s too long it’s broken. Getting that right through the eyes of thousands of people… that meter will NEVER be universally seen as “balanced”, it’s also so easy to exploit.
My opinion, have the ccs but give everyone a universal limited time cc immunity ability that they need to preemptively procc. Casting the ability should have a small window where the opponent can interrupt your cast with any cc, but dmg itself wouldn’t interrupt it. Give every class some sort of ranged cc, even if it’s small, so that they can interrupt the opponent casting (perhaps this could be applied into existing skills with augmentation, or not). That ability should have like a 5 min cooldown (but hopefully things like arena dueling, like in archeage, would reset cds so you won’t need to wait for cds before the next duel).
Why does EVERY class need a get out of jail free card? thing should make sense according to their class. i can understand a magic user having some kind of magical way to get out of stuff, but why does say, a bard need a get out of jail free card? his get out of jail free card is not getting into the jail in the first place. when you go down that road you start becoming like every other mmo.
[*] How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
CCs and CC-breaking are important parts of dynamic combat. Without disruption to routine, there is very little difference between PvE and PvP content. Optimal Rotations, performed without fear of interruption, risks making combat feel stale. I would also argue that, without dynamic involvement, there is a high risk of player skill becoming under-valued relative to gear strength. Progression is important for an advantage, but if it's the only thing that matters - it's disheartening to some players. Room for skill is important, and its is very strongly pronounced in the interaction of CC's, CC breaks, and their interaction with rotation vs. cooldowns.
Furthermore, I believe it's important to measure the role of each archetype and how their intended design operates within scalable content to determine what CC is appropriate. No single class should have it all.
My personal opinion, for optimal balance.
Raids will be mindless, boring, helpless zergs if Healing output doesn't drastically outpace standard DPS output. Similarly, pushes will be stagnant if Tanks can't survive prolonged extension to break lines even in the temporary absence of healing.
For that reason, the tools must exists (especially for DPS archetypes) to be able to disrupt the gameplay of the tanks and healers in a large-scale PvP environment in order to break through defenses, or withstand offensive pushes. This balance is important for fun and dynamic group content.
[*] How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I think we can all agree that no one class should have EVERYTHING in the toolshed. But I believe every class needs to have some amount of interaction with the CC/CC break - and Cooldown-Opportunity balance.
DPS classes need a way to interrupt and disrupt survivability tactics. But ONLY if their damage is insufficient to kill without them. For example, if a DPS class can already outdamage a Cleric's healing output - they don't really need to also have the ability to interrupt them.
I like the idea of support oriented classes being able to break the CCs of others . Perhaps not ALL CCs. (ex. How would you "untrip" someone?) But certainly things like "Fear", where a cleric or bard could, thematically, remove that fear through inspiration, cleansing, calming, or magical intervention.
I think every class should have some ability to negate (i.e. "dodge") CC. Perhaps some limited invulnerability like i-frames on a dodge, or a spell-shield or something. But those things should require skillful timing, quick reaction, and/or they should have a substantial cooldown.
Similarly, I like the idea of all classes having an inate one-time, longer CD, CC break ability - as has been employed by many other MMOs.
[*] What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Some classes having additional breaks through talents and skills feels appropriate. Tanks for example, should probably be better at shrugging off CC than others. I think role specific flavor is fair to establish somewhat intended Rock-Paper-Scissors balance.
(ex. I don't think a tank would get "feared", stunned, or tripped easily if they were trying not to. But I do think they could be magically put to sleep, rooted, or silenced. I don't think a fighter would get sleepy in the middle of spinning in circles with massive combat momentum and rage. But I do think you could trip them and root them. Rangers are far too dexterous to be rooted for long, but I don't see why they couldn't be stunned, feared, knocked away. Etc.)
If done in a role-appropriate way, role-specific CC/CC-break interaction talent choices are a great addition. I like the idea of being able to chose one over the other as a "choices matter" point of contention. If you want to play highly offensive, pick the 2 CCs. Even if the second one is weaker. If you want to play balanced, pick the stronger CC and the stronger CC break. Defensive playstyle? Pick the 2 CC breaks, even if the second one only breaks some types of CC.
Conclusion
CC has an important place in the game. It needs to exist to create dynamic combat. It needs to interact with a healthy Time-To-Death duration as one of SEVERAL tools that are important from an offensive AND defensive stand point. CCs need to exist for someone to escape, and CCs need to exist for offensive pressure. People want to PLAY the game, so the worst deployment of CC is when someone can remain CC'd from healthy to dead. Nobody likes this happening to them, and it shouldn't be able to. Defensive utility must exist to survive. If the utility runs out, the offensive pressure begins to mount. As long as the balance of the offensive and defensive cooldown systems don't create a reality where the fellow members of the trinity are just fodder for the infinite swarm of DPS classes to freely collect kills and stun-lock their way to victory, then I think any iteration of CC and CC break balance can be appropriate.
Remember. People want to play the game. Let them. People hate losing control of their character agency, but CC effects are important for the user. Don't make CC too punishing, but ensure that players have tools to succeed in their role, and I think the combat will be great.
I am not a fan of everyone having a get out of jail free card.. it ruins the potential synergy between classes. when you add get out of jail free cards to the game, you lower the skill ceiling and people play worse. thats what equipment is for, or trinkets, or skills/spells. you should have to EARN your get out of jail free card, not be given to you. for example if you're a cleric, you can put a shield on everyone that says the next maladiction placed on you is negated or somethign. that makes you useful in that way. or have a class who can absorb that spell and benefit from it. i just dont like the design choice to give everyone stuff for free requiring players to do less to deal with stuff. TO ME personally it only makes sense with classes that have obvious things to negate it such as a clense from a healer, or ice block from a mage or something of that nature. or even some kind of nature wizard that puts a circle on the ground and as long as you stand in it no negative effects will befall you etc.
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
I think they are essential and need to be in the game. There is nothing worse then chasing someone and cant stop them. It feels like a helpless battle.
CC is fundamental and an ability on the hot bar. To limit their power there must be a cool down. CC should also be counted in a way of how you build your character. Ie skill 0.5s reduction in stuns.
CC breaks in my opinion should be more skill/preparation built. IE timing the perfect parry or carrying a specific potion to mitigate the CC. The would require players to go down the crafting path to obtain these items or buy them from the shop
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
These are important in every class. They dont have to have as many or be as powerful but there is nothing worse when soloing and you dont have CC. However if the you dont have CC you would like to think your character is compensated in some way
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
This is perfect and what would make the game interesting. Its important to be able to define your character. Metas for class build are too common and I think this would help level out the field
How do you feel about CC and CC breaks in MMORPGs?
I think CC is a good strategic lever. Games where CC is allowed to run freely, though, is never enjoyable to play with direct counter play to it.
CC breaks, I think, are important to have access to, usually with on a longer cooldown as to only be a saving grace.
I enjoy CC as it gives immediate feedback and is visually understood. Hard CC where you can no longer act is more visible than a -20% damage debuff. And in the same turn enjoy breaking a key CC in response.
I think CC should be metered against damage and skill. The harder the CC access someone has less overall damage they should inflict or a far higher skill is required to pull it off (long cast time, slow skillshot, combo action, channelled cast instead, etc)
CC breaks in my view are usually for hard CC. Stuns, sleeps, knock down effects etc. things that prevent you from acting entirely.
This wouldn’t prevent things like silences, slows, chills, other debuffs. Softer CC.
Snap duration CC, interrupts, to interrupt casting times I think is overall a good thing for both Pve and PvP as long as it’s not too prevalent.
I also like beak bars / resistance bars, CC gauges etc in games where you need to use your Cc to break the bar and weaken the (usually boss) enemy.
In PvE, I think breaking rotation to react in MMOs is a great thing, having to CC to prevent an attack, having to CC break suddenly, use an interrupt, strategy that causes players to make choices is more fun to me.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I think it’s only a good thing. Usually on a longer cooldown or tied to utility. Having CC break allows for harder CC effects throughout the game. With no CC break it feels worse to be dealt any hard CC and the strategy becomes how long can you lock down your opponent.
I like the idea of support classes having access to CC break for others or a CC immunity.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
The harder the CC should always be the more difficult skill to pull off or be far less damaging. To pick CC is to lower your overall damage for the sake of control or require far more skill and planning to pull off.
My opinion is everyone should naturally have access to CC break somewhere in their kit without having to spec for it. A utility that is not tied to normal dps rotation.
Comments
I like the strategic use and wariness around CC in MMOs, but there needs to be well-thought-out diversity in the specific effect of, use case for, and approach to execution of every archetype's CC. Every archetype should have some form of CC, but they should look and feel very different from each other to use and be hit by.
Here are some concepts to illustrate the point:
Fighter: [Hamstring] An instant-cast, precisely targeted attack that hamstrings the opponent, reducing movement speed by 50% for 5 seconds and preventing the use of speed-boosting/long-jump mechanics. The ability can be CC-broken. The ability can be spec'd into to apply a ticking hemorrhage-bleed on the target that lasts for 10 seconds, and persists even if the speed reduction is broken through CC-break. This is good for fighters because they tend not to be particularly mobile and need to either keep opponents in range, or make escapes.
Tank: [Wall of Spears] An instant cast horizontal line of magic spears burst from the earth at a 45 degree angle in the direction you're facing with a three meter wingspan, dealing piercing damage, knocking back enemies within 1 meter of the wall at the time of execution a distance of 1 meter, and slowing them for 3 seconds. The slow can be CC-broken. The wall is impassible for 10 seconds. The ability can be spec'd into to have it deliver piercing damage and a 3-second slow to any additional enemies who make contact with the pointy side until it expires. This is good for tanks because their mission is to protect others around them. A brief knockback and slow applied to those closest to the tank at the time of execution will prevent them from maneuvering around the wall so quickly that it renders the ability a low-value investment.
Rogue: [Sucker Punch] An instant cast KO style stun that last for 10 seconds, preventing all ability usage including CC-break until damaged or healed. The user must be in stealth in order to activate this ability. The ability can be spec'd into to apply a dazed effect to the target for 3 seconds whenever the initial stun fades (either naturally or through interruption), reducing movement speed, attack speed, and casting time. This is good for rogues, because they tend to pick out loners, or people who would otherwise be a strategic asset to a larger team. They're not armored very well, so they depend on patience to find the perfect moment to strike and get a head-start on their opponent.
Ranger: [Nature's Wrath] A 1 second cast root-style stun that calls on the powers of nature to ensnare the target and hold them from movement for 10 seconds. There is a 15% chance that any damage caused will break the root. The effect can be CC-broken. The ability can be spec'd into to make the forces of nature track the target for five seconds after the root is broken, either naturally or through CC-break, grasping out with slowly fading tendrils that apply a 5 second slow applied in a waning gradient. This works well for rangers, because they like to kite their enemies and keep them at a distance. The VFX could be altered to fit the environment the opponent is standing on - healthy roots for forests/tundra/freshwaster, vines for tropics, gnarled/thorny dry roots in the desert, or seaweed in the ocean.
Mage: [Displacement] A 1.5 second cast ability which temporarily disrupts the enemy's tie to the material plane, causing them to teleport anywhere from 2-5 meters in a random direction (including upward Z coordinates) once upon casting, and again every 2.5 seconds for 10 seconds. The ability can be spec'd into to cause the enemy to become disoriented, reversing the effects of all movement input for the spell's duration and for 5 seconds after the base effect of the spell fades. This ability and its spec-effects cannot be CC-broken. This is good for mages because they often require escapes, and the unpredictable nature of it plays into their character fantasy of being somewhat experimental manipulators of (see: meddlers in) the arcane - occasionally to their own detriment.
Summoner: [Summon: Long-Pawed Langur] A 1.5 second cast which summons a fantasized version of a langur monkey on the enemy's shoulders, who takes no joy in this unexpected piggyback ride, wrapping its paws around the eyes of its unwilling mount and blinding them for 20 seconds, or until enough damage has been dealt to it (either via 50% damage dealt to the target being delivered to the langur indirectly [including damage dealt by the summoner or their allies] or direct damage dealt to the langur by a player friendly to the target) to dissipate its essence. While blinded, full-screen VFX will blot out the target's vision (you could get pretty creative with this, creating some long-fingered monkey-paw-like shapes with black fill and an edge gradient that cycle through a 5 or 10 second long animation loop which offers slight, rapidly-shifting glimpses of their screen). While blinded, the target is able to target any attackable player or NPC (enemy or ally), activate abilities, and is slowed by 25%. This gives the target the option to continue their offensive pursuit, but puts their allies at risk of friendly fire via direct attacks or AoE until the Langur is dispatched or the spell ends. This ability can be spec'd into to summon an enraged langur, who deals ticking damage to the target until it's dispatched or the spell ends. This would work well for summoners, because (to me) they offer a somewhat whimsical class fantasy based on the abilities of their summons, not on arcane magics or physical prowess. Because they're a somewhat role-flexible class, this gives summoners the opportunity to escape, to kite, or, in battlefield situations, to force the enemy to either sit out their combat until the langur is dispatched, or risk hurting their allies.
Cleric: [Invert Essence] An instant cast spell which functions similarly to an interrupt, but rather than stopping an opponent's spell-casting, it allows the target's next spell or melee attack to be carried out, and upon confirmation of damage dealt, converts it to healing instead. If, upon casting, the target is not currently casting any spells, it simply makes the next attack carried out by the target deal healing instead of damage for the next thirty seconds. If, upon casting, the target is currently casting or channeling a spell, then the opponent has a chance to notice the cleric's spellcast, cancel their own spellcast, and use up the Invert Essence on something less damaging. This ability could be spec'd into such that if, upon casting, the target is currently casting or channeling a spell, then that specific spell is marked by Invert Essence, giving it a golden aura on the target's hotbar for thirty seconds. Until the aura fades, that ability now does healing to enemies, and is not castable on allies. This ensures that if a cleric is trying to limit the enemy's use of a specific spell, which they may have been saving their Invert Essence to manipulate, that the enemy is still blocked from dealing damage with it, even if they cancel the spellcast after the cleric uses their Invert Essence. The enemy must chose to either wait out the thirty seconds, or use it ASAP to activate its CD. This works well for clerics, because they operate primarily as healers or support. They are rarely, themselves, the targets of damage, particularly in PvE scenarios, and tend to be shielded from enemy fire in PvP scenarios. Their use of CC should focus on reducing the damage of the enemy while slipping in some healing for their allies, particularly those being targeted by powerful abilities.
Bard: The Bard showcase livestream is still fresh enough in my mind for me to say I feel happy with the CC abilities they currently have, for now anyway. I think it makes sense for them to have multiple forms of CC to suit various situations, none of which are particularly costly for their enemies, but when strung together, collectively weaken opposing groups of NPCs or players. This suits the support role that they primarily serve pretty well and keeps them from being too powerful as soloists. If a bard does double-spec into their archetype, however, I think they should have at least one CC that's a little more powerful than the others. Perhaps this could be done through the Saga system somehow.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I don't like the idea of every class having a CC break. If you're a class that already suffers from mobility issues, like a Fighter, Cleric, or a Tank, than you should have one. Otherwise, if you really need it that badly, you should look into a trinket / piece of jewelry / limited use item that helps you in dire situations. Some CC ability effects, like the ones I illustrated above, should be able to be mitigated through good communication and teamwork.
If everyone has CC, it makes the game balanced through a subjective equality of opportunity. If everyone has CC-breaking, it makes the game boring through a subjective equality of outcome. This is similar to what you'd get if every class had a boring, generic cousin of a small handful of CC abilities. VFX for class-flavor won't get you very far for engaging gameplay. The mechanics and decision making that various abilities provide to the players of each unique class need to be diverse and engaging as well.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Players should absolutely get to choose whether to spec further into their CC or CC-breaks (if their class offers one) at the cost of damage, or vice versa.
For CC-breaks, I think there should be three tiers:
Tier 1: Low-mobility classes like the Fighter, Cleric, and Tank get a CC-break as part of their kit. They can spec into making it more useful/powerful/available at the cost of damage.
Tier 2: Medium-mobility classes like the Mage and Summoner should have the option to spec into a basic-level CC-break at the cost of damage.
Tier 3: High-mobility classes like the Ranger, Rogue, and Bard should not have any CC-breaks inherent in their kit, or available in their class-trees. They can, however, choose to have necklaces, rings, or trinkets enchanted to offer high-CD (maybe 10 minutes?) CC-break at the cost of enchantments they could've otherwise chosen. These enchantments should be collectively marked as unique, and only one piece of gear enhanced with one of them should be equippable at a time.
While other games would use breaks as another skill some games use items for CC breaks, either consumables or active abilities on a wearable. I typically prefer cc breaks on consumables, because this makes the player prepare for these situations and helps crafters produce something useful. This also frees up a skill slot for more optional skills rather than making each class need a specific ability, by just the consumable.
Overall CC should be included as a starter ability to get players used to using the ability. CC break effects should us used as a consumable for self and targeted players.
I think CC and CC breaks are important and a needed element in MMO's currently. Like most things they should work a bit differently in PvP vs PvE. Lets look at PvE first.
PvE CC
I have always enjoyed more difficult combat encounters, where CC becomes a very important tool to be used to keep the group alive though a fight. If enemies take an entire group to kill then having three such enemies loose and attacking the group could mean a group wipe, thus the need for some sort of CC. Vs monsters a longer CC makes more sense especially if the individual mob is very difficult to kill. Original EQ is a good example of this where if you even pulled 2 mobs without any CC could mean the end of your group. If mobs are going to be very difficult like this then you will need strong CC to handle extra creatures.
Another reason to have CC is to stop some people from developing bad play habits for harder encounters. Again this depends on how hard the mobs will be to kill. Generally you don't want your cleric in a melee or your caster fighting three creatures at once, when the tank is trying to keep the mob or mobs on him or herself. Having CC means people have to focus their targeting and not be stupid and hit the wrong target.
PvP
Again CC and CC breaks are important in PvP. on the Plus side of strong longer lasting CC in PvP is the chance for a small organized group to eliminate or take on a much larger less organized group. The game I look at for PvP the most was Dark Age of Camelot. They had long CC abilities that vs a lower ability player would totally dominate them. Vs higher level ability players it was not as relevant. In group vs group of equal numbers and abilities the Power of Aoe CC was not as important but still played an important roll. Whatever group managed to get off a Aoe CC on the other group first had an advantage. This did not always mean you won but it did help.
Imo the most important thing about CC in PvP is it is one of two tools that a small group has giving them a chance vs a much larger group. The other being movement speed.
On the negative side of CC it can make people feel powerless and unable to play as their group is killed around them. This can be mitigated by CC Breaks and CC resistances but it is something that comes with CC in general.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
Every Archetype should have a self use CC Break, it should be on a medium timer with some resistance given to CC for a duration after use so the person can not be chain stunned and killed etc.
Each Archetype should have access to a single target form of CC. Like others have mentioned each type should be relevant to the Class. These single target CC's should not be very long in duration but useful in different situations. A few Classes should have more powerful CC's and Aoe CC's in their tool box. This would give these classes another reason to be desired for certain encounters. There should also be some classes that have more Powerful CC Breaks like group purges or purging other players.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
Anytime there is a CC or a CC break I would take that ability before Damage abilities unless CC in the game is so weak it is pointless or if I am part of a organized group where my CC is over redundant and I need the points to fulfill a more important job
•Idk need to play with a different system to get a feel. But as I always say in these forums I think the mmo I spent the most amount of time in got it so that it feels fair (Warhammer online). Example: if you stunned, silenced or knockdowned for 2 sec they got a 20 sec immune to that type of CC (Stuns).
If you rooted someone for 3 sec then they got a 30 sec immune for that type of cc (roots).
Melee dps had better cc breaks than range dps as compensation but alot if not all had some sort of cc break.
I was happy how it worked and I guess I want similar type in Ashes but maybe there is a better way to do it idk.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
•No problem with all classes have some form of cc break. But would probably be best to balance it out so that everyone can't do everything at the same time. Damage, CC, mobility, survivability etc you should only be able to pick a few, not all.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
• Make both paths viable in different scenarios. PVE boss or glass cannon pvp group maybe a full damage path is better and in other scenarios CC and CC breaks might be better. So in other words maybe do not make CC so strong that it's mandatory for all scenarios.
EDIT: Also the diminishing returns on all these different micro CCs in WoW was also absolute garbage. The fact that you had to have a DR Tracking mod to know which CCs share DR with other CCs is just dumb. Pool ALL CC into a CC category without subcategories, and just have them fill up the bar so that players can actually play the game.
Active CC skills or spells should be focus on soft CC like mage’s sleep spell or ranger’s weight ammo or immobilized or pulled or knock back(pulled and knock back are almost hard CCs to me).
Active CC breaks should fit archetype role, support role is the one should have abilities to break CC effects on teammates, tank is the one should have abilities to break CC effect on it own but doesn’t effect to teammates, fighter should be endure CC effects and each CC or stack makes fighter’s damage higher etc.
Gears should give character CC resistance to decrease the effect or duration on certain CC type depends on armor type and also passive CC breaks that have a chance to break soft and hard CCs by heartbeat.
Why does EVERY class need a get out of jail free card? thing should make sense according to their class. i can understand a magic user having some kind of magical way to get out of stuff, but why does say, a bard need a get out of jail free card? his get out of jail free card is not getting into the jail in the first place. when you go down that road you start becoming like every other mmo.
I am not a fan of everyone having a get out of jail free card.. it ruins the potential synergy between classes. when you add get out of jail free cards to the game, you lower the skill ceiling and people play worse. thats what equipment is for, or trinkets, or skills/spells. you should have to EARN your get out of jail free card, not be given to you. for example if you're a cleric, you can put a shield on everyone that says the next maladiction placed on you is negated or somethign. that makes you useful in that way. or have a class who can absorb that spell and benefit from it. i just dont like the design choice to give everyone stuff for free requiring players to do less to deal with stuff. TO ME personally it only makes sense with classes that have obvious things to negate it such as a clense from a healer, or ice block from a mage or something of that nature. or even some kind of nature wizard that puts a circle on the ground and as long as you stand in it no negative effects will befall you etc.
I think they are essential and need to be in the game. There is nothing worse then chasing someone and cant stop them. It feels like a helpless battle.
CC is fundamental and an ability on the hot bar. To limit their power there must be a cool down. CC should also be counted in a way of how you build your character. Ie skill 0.5s reduction in stuns.
CC breaks in my opinion should be more skill/preparation built. IE timing the perfect parry or carrying a specific potion to mitigate the CC. The would require players to go down the crafting path to obtain these items or buy them from the shop
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
These are important in every class. They dont have to have as many or be as powerful but there is nothing worse when soloing and you dont have CC. However if the you dont have CC you would like to think your character is compensated in some way
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
This is perfect and what would make the game interesting. Its important to be able to define your character. Metas for class build are too common and I think this would help level out the field
I think CC is a good strategic lever. Games where CC is allowed to run freely, though, is never enjoyable to play with direct counter play to it.
CC breaks, I think, are important to have access to, usually with on a longer cooldown as to only be a saving grace.
I enjoy CC as it gives immediate feedback and is visually understood. Hard CC where you can no longer act is more visible than a -20% damage debuff. And in the same turn enjoy breaking a key CC in response.
I think CC should be metered against damage and skill. The harder the CC access someone has less overall damage they should inflict or a far higher skill is required to pull it off (long cast time, slow skillshot, combo action, channelled cast instead, etc)
CC breaks in my view are usually for hard CC. Stuns, sleeps, knock down effects etc. things that prevent you from acting entirely.
This wouldn’t prevent things like silences, slows, chills, other debuffs. Softer CC.
Snap duration CC, interrupts, to interrupt casting times I think is overall a good thing for both Pve and PvP as long as it’s not too prevalent.
I also like beak bars / resistance bars, CC gauges etc in games where you need to use your Cc to break the bar and weaken the (usually boss) enemy.
In PvE, I think breaking rotation to react in MMOs is a great thing, having to CC to prevent an attack, having to CC break suddenly, use an interrupt, strategy that causes players to make choices is more fun to me.
How do you feel about all Archetypes in Ashes of Creation having some form of a CC break?
I think it’s only a good thing. Usually on a longer cooldown or tied to utility. Having CC break allows for harder CC effects throughout the game. With no CC break it feels worse to be dealt any hard CC and the strategy becomes how long can you lock down your opponent.
I like the idea of support classes having access to CC break for others or a CC immunity.
What are your thoughts about choosing CC or CC breaks versus damage when allocating skill points?
The harder the CC should always be the more difficult skill to pull off or be far less damaging. To pick CC is to lower your overall damage for the sake of control or require far more skill and planning to pull off.
My opinion is everyone should naturally have access to CC break somewhere in their kit without having to spec for it. A utility that is not tied to normal dps rotation.